FM Group and TV's and Libraries

Just looking for an answer from other stakes on what is the TV policy? When the "Come Follow Me" program came out our stake president wanted it to work and embraced it after the training we took. The TV's we have are not able to play video through a usb port. So we as a stake bought 8 Samsung 32" TV's with a usb port to play the video's not wanting to stream them because of stalling problems. We gave each ward building two TV's and we also bought two Roku box for two older TV's to try that out. Here is my issue, FM has taken some of the older TV's that we used the Roku boxes on so we are down to our LED TV's and one older tv. The FM group told me today that they are suppose to count the tv's we bought against the 3 tv's per meeting house. Are idea was to have enough tv's to make this program work. Now we are being blocked from doing what we intended to help our youth. If we had known that they would count the tv's we bought against us we would of never used our stake funds to purchase them. We feel this is not right and I don't know if this is correct or not. What is correct?

FM plays by rules we can't verify. We're stuck in the situation were we cannot independently identify what the rules are.

If you want solid answers, I'd suggest your stake president talk to his "upline" - the area authority. I think what you'll get here are other people's experiences with their FM group - which my or may not accurately reflect the real rules.

What he said... but this is the whole thing I was going to write before he beat me to it...

Similar concerns have been discussed at length on these forums. There are varying degrees of interpretation of "official policies" about the number of TV monitors, the sizes we should have and who, exactly can or cannot pay for them (or, perhaps, donate them). But it does seem clear that the number of TVs that "should" be in a building (according to the official meetinghouse library guidelines) is not enough if you plan to have three Young Men classes, three Young Women classes and, perhaps, priesthood and Relief Society groups using the church-provided videos at the same time during your meeting schedule. So, if my vote counts, I say we need to allow (if not require) more monitors per building.

As far as your FM Group taking away old TVs… that's really puzzling to me. What are they doing with them anyway? Who wants an old TV that can't be connected to modern playback equipment (unless they also confiscated the modern playback equipment)? It sounds like your FM Group is interpreting the guidelines in a way that could be disputed. And, from what I gather watching discussions around here, your best move is to let the Stake President push for something. They seem to be able to make things happen when they really want to (as opposed a lowly secretary or Ward Technology Specialist like me, whose calling isn't even "a real calling" if you go by the standard of who gets any special access at LDS.org).

mrrad wrote:As far as your FM Group taking away old TVs… that's really puzzling to me. What are they doing with them anyway? Who wants an old TV that can't be connected to modern playback equipment...

Just like old PC's, they don't plan to use them, then plan to dispose of them. The church as a whole has to maintain accountability for properly disposing of certain electronic devices, including TV's, PC's, projectors, copiers, etc. If an item is purchased as a replacement, then they must get an older (or broken) item back for disposal. The FM groups have companies contracted to come by and pick up the used/broken equipment. What happens to it from that point I'm completely in the dark. I don't even know if the church is compensated for the old gear or if they pay to have it hauled off. That knowledge is above my pay grade. I DO know they maintain records on the whole process and probably go through regular audits just like any ward or stake.

If you want/need a couple of extra older TVs, I don't see why a SP couldn't authorize someone to go to DI or Goodwill and pick up a couple. The ones I saw at DI today were well under $20 ea.

farwest wrote:The FM group told me today that they are suppose to count the tv's we bought against the 3 tv's per meeting house.

The FM is responsible for all equipment in the buildings, no matter what the funding source is. If you stake had used Stake and Ward Activity and Operations Funds (Budget Allowance Funds) for tables and chairs they would do the same thing.

farwest wrote:Are idea was to have enough tv's to make this program work.

While the Idea has merit the use of Budget Allowance Funds was in appropriate and a misuse of funds.

farwest wrote:Now we are being blocked from doing what we intended to help our youth.

I don't buy into this thinking. I have yet to see all the TV in the library being to the extent that someone could not teach their planned lessons. Although I'm sure someone may have had a different experience. What I have seen is most leaders bringing their own laptops or tablets and using them.

farwest wrote:If we had known that they would count the tv's we bought against us we would of never used our stake funds to purchase them. We feel this is not right and I don't know if this is correct or not. What is correct?

It was not right for your stake to use Budget Allowance Funds for these purchase. That was a misappropriation of funds. Budget Allowance Funds was never intended to purchase equipment for the building.

Mikerowaved wrote:If you want/need a couple of extra older TVs, I don't see why a SP couldn't authorize someone to go to DI or Goodwill and pick up a couple. The ones I saw at DI today were well under $20 ea.

What good would this do the FM group would just come and remove them also as the building would be over there allotted amount. And this would be a miss use of Budget Funds.

farwest wrote:Just looking for an answer from other stakes on what is the TV policy? When the "Come Follow Me" program came out our stake president wanted it to work and embraced it after the training we took. The TV's we have are not able to play video through a usb port. So we as a stake bought 8 Samsung 32" TV's with a usb port to play the video's not wanting to stream them because of stalling problems. We gave each ward building two TV's and we also bought two Roku box for two older TV's to try that out. Here is my issue, FM has taken some of the older TV's that we used the Roku boxes on so we are down to our LED TV's and one older tv. The FM group told me today that they are suppose to count the tv's we bought against the 3 tv's per meeting house. Are idea was to have enough tv's to make this program work. Now we are being blocked from doing what we intended to help our youth. If we had known that they would count the tv's we bought against us we would of never used our stake funds to purchase them. We feel this is not right and I don't know if this is correct or not. What is correct?

Like others have said, it's hard to know what rules the FM group is working off of. However, the recently released Meetinghouse Technology Policy in section 6.3 indicates the the FM group is supposed to track the inventory for AV equipment provides for new construction and by the FM group and that local units track the inventory purchased with local unit funds. This seems to indicate (to me at least) that purchasing AV equipment with local budget funds is not prohibited and that the FM group should only worry about the equipment they provide and that local units are (completely) responsible (including for repair or replacement) for equipment they purchase.

eblood66 wrote:This seems to indicate (to me at least) that purchasing AV equipment with local budget funds is not prohibited and that the FM group should only worry about the equipment they provide and that local units are (completely) responsible (including for repair or replacement) for equipment they purchase.

Except if you look at the document as a whole you will see that, Local Unit Provided Equipment, was addressed in 4.1 and 7.3. However it was not addressed in 6.2, which would seem there is a mistake in ether 6.2 or 6.3.

Gary_Miller wrote:

eblood66 wrote:This seems to indicate (to me at least) that purchasing AV equipment with local budget funds is not prohibited and that the FM group should only worry about the equipment they provide and that local units are (completely) responsible (including for repair or replacement) for equipment they purchase.

Except if you look at the document as a whole you will see that, Local Unit Provided Equipment, was addressed in 4.1 and 7.3. However it was not addressed in 6.2, which would seem there is a mistake in ether 6.2 or 6.3.

Yep. It's not clear. Another interpretation is that purchasing AV equipment with local funds is no longer permitted but any equipment purchased before the new policy is the responsibility of the local unit.

The document indicates that questions should be directed to the Meetinghouse Technology Coordination Team. Asking them may be the best course of action for the original poster.

Mikerowaved wrote:Just like old PC's, they don't plan to use them, then plan to dispose of them.

The only time I've seen that happen is when a new PC is provided by FM. I've never seen/heard of it happening when there's donated machines - such as to the FHC.

russellhltn wrote:

Mikerowaved wrote:Just like old PC's, they don't plan to use them, then plan to dispose of them.

The only time I've seen that happen is when a new PC is provided by FM. I've never seen/heard of it happening when there's donated machines - such as to the FHC.

My FM group has asked me to pass on to them for disposal all computers that are no longer needed. Over the years that has certainly included old computers donated to the FHC.

One note that I've been told by (2) FM is that they feel free to move equipment around anywhere they like, at anytime they like. I was told to lock up anything in the Bishop's credenza that we wanted to 'keep' because everything else is there's to do with as they please. They DO NOT inform an Agent Bishop, or Agent Stake President.... NO COMMUNICATION on their part is felt necessary.

In this case, they could be seeing an over-abundance in some meetinghouses while others are under-provision, so they took from the over-provisioned building to meet the needs of another. Not saying it happened, but it is also a plausible scenario.

This is what happens when Stakes Purchase Stuff on their own and we bypass all processes in place. The FMG might operate under unavailable guidelines as has been said, but the thousands of wards and stakes that bypass the process setup a false sense of reality that the FMG deals with.

aebrown wrote:My FM group has asked me to pass on to them for disposal all computers that are no longer needed. Over the years that has certainly included old computers donated to the FHC.

That's far different from the FMG taking or demanding a machine to be turned in for every new machine donated.

russellhltn wrote:

aebrown wrote:My FM group has asked me to pass on to them for disposal all computers that are no longer needed. Over the years that has certainly included old computers donated to the FHC.

That's far different from the FMG taking or demanding a machine to be turned in for every new machine donated.

It might be, but that's not the scenario I was responding to. I was simply responding to the question of the FMG disposing of computers that are replaced. Demanding wasn't part of the post I responded to, nor my response.

Stakes and ward should communicate through their Stake PFR with their FM. There are specific guidelines as to how many of each device are allowed for each meetinghouse.

When our FM started installing the first round of 32-inch LCD TVs, they quickly learned that the TVs could not play mp4 video files through the USB port. So our FM quickly installed two WD TV Live media players in each meetinghouse, with instructions on how to use them with flash drives.

The next round of 32-inch TVs that our FM installed were able to play mp4 files.

Thanks for all the input. Just a couple of thoughts. On Gary_Miller observation of leaders bringing their own laptop or tablet to show video's. There are some that do not have a laptop or tablet and now feel pressure that to have a calling they need a laptop or tablet. I have been in classes where a laptop or tablet has been used and the sound and picture because of size is inferior in all ways to the TV. Yes you can teach without either but that was not the point of the "Come Follow Me" program and all the effort that went into it to get it off the ground. But it was grounded from the start because the cart was in front of the horse without the TV's to play the media on. Our stake president was impressed to buy tv's to make this available for our youth, they are the future of the church and he wanted them to have access to the best teaching tools available. He said that it really is all the same money and we are all on the same team and we all have the same goals. So he made the decision to buy TV's and it has been a good thing for our youth.

The FM is responsible to maintain an accurate and current inventory of all such devices, probably for insurance purposes, etc. If a stake or ward cannot wait for the FM budget to receive updated equipment, the FM prefers that the stake or ward sends payment to the FM, who will then purchase standard equipment that meets all Church guidelines.

As for disposal, I found a dead VCR in the stake center library over the weekend. We have been using it for many years to convert RF channel 4 to a video signal for our projector in the cultural hall during stake conferences. I asked the FM tech who was setting up our (the FM's) wireless microphones for stake conference, and he said it looked so old that it probably wasn't on the FM's inventory. I tossed it in the dumpster and sent an e-mail to the FM's office assistant.

drepouille wrote:I tossed it in the dumpster

Different areas have different laws about disposal.

I think Best Buy will take in old equipment, but may require a payment ($10 - but they'll give you a $10 gift card) to dispose of things with screens.

Oh yes. I am aware of the EPA penalties for imporperly disposing of CRTs.
VCRs, not so much.

farwest wrote:There are some that do not have a laptop or tablet and now feel pressure that to have a calling they need a laptop or tablet.

We all have choices to make. No one is forcing anyone or even placing pressure on them to purchase a laptop or tablet. They can use the equipment in the library. Like I previously stated, I have yet to see all the TV being used to the point where no one could get one.

farwest wrote: I have been in classes where a laptop or tablet has been used and the sound and picture because of size is inferior in all ways to the TV.

Yes that can be a problem. However, I have yet to see all the TV being used to the point where no one could get one. How about You?

farwest wrote: Yes you can teach without either but that was not the point of the "Come Follow Me" program and all the effort that went into it to get it off the ground. But it was grounded from the start because the cart was in front of the horse without the TV's to play the media on.

While not haveing the proper equipment was a problem from the start it was never a show stopper. All the classes can be taught without the videos the videos just brought added quality into the classes. I don't believe it was ever grounded.

farwest wrote:Our stake president was impressed to buy tv's to make this available for our youth, they are the future of the church and he wanted them to have access to the best teaching tools available.

Good for him. However we are a church of order and there are procedures and policies that need to me followed.

farwest wrote:He said that it really is all the same money and we are all on the same team and we all have the same goals.

He is right to a point in that the funds all come from tithing money. However, he is wrong in the way the funds were used as the Budget Allowance funds were set aside by the Prophet and the Quorum of the Twelve for the use of ward and stake operations and activities. Not for the purchase of audio visual equipment. See the Budget Training in the May 1990 Ensign for a more complete understanding of the principles of the Budget Allowance.

farwest wrote:So he made the decision to buy TV's and it has been a good thing for our youth.

Being good for the youth does not make the action correct.

farwest wrote:
There are some that do not have a laptop or tablet and now feel pressure that to have a calling they need a laptop or tablet.

Gary_Miller wrote:
We all have choices to make. No one is forcing anyone or even placing pressure on them to purchase a laptop or tablet. They can use the equipment in the library. Like I previously stated, I have yet to see all the TV being used to the point where no one could get one.

farwest reply: No one is forcing but there is a feeling out there that you need it. The point is that the TV's we had would be no good because they can't play the video's.

farwest wrote:
I have been in classes where a laptop or tablet has been used and the sound and picture because of size is inferior in all ways to the TV.

Yes that can be a problem. However, I have yet to see all the TV being used to the point where no one could get one. How about You?

farwest reply: Once again we could of had 10 TV's it wouldn't matter they don't play video's. Also
FM said TV's are on a 16 year replacement plan so it would of been several years to replace any of the TV's we now have.

farwest wrote:
Yes you can teach without either but that was not the point of the "Come Follow Me" program and all the effort that went into it to get it off the ground. But it was grounded from the start because the cart was in front of the horse without the TV's to play the media on.

Gary_Miller wrote:
While not haveing the proper equipment was a problem from the start it was never a show stopper. All the classes can be taught without the videos the videos just brought added quality into the classes. I don't believe it was ever grounded.

farwest reply: As I have stated before there is no point of having the "Come Follow Me" program if you can't implement it. All the hours and money put into it would be a waste if you cannot use it.

farwest wrote:
Our stake president was impressed to buy TV's to make this available for our youth, they are the future of the church and he wanted them to have access to the best teaching tools available.

Gary_Miller wrote:
Good for him. However we are a church of order and there are procedures and policies that need to me followed.

farwest reply: You are correct about that and it is also a church of revelation. If the stake president had not acted upon his impression we would be here in our stake over a year later not using the "Come Follow Me" program because we have no TV's to play it on.

farwest wrote:
He said that it really is all the same money and we are all on the same team and we all have the same goals.

Gary_Miller wrote:
He is right to a point in that the funds all come from tithing money. However, he is wrong in the way the funds were used as the Budget Allowance funds were set aside by the Prophet and the Quorum of the Twelve for the use of ward and stake operations and activities. Not for the purchase of audio visual equipment. See the Budget Training in the May 1990 Ensign for a more complete understanding of the principles of the Budget Allowance.

farwest reply: Once again you are correct and I have been thinking of a solution. I will suggest to the stake president that we need to sell those TV's and put the money back in the stake budget and be patient and wait another five to seven years for the TV's to reach the sixteen year replacement plan. (policy) Letter of the Law


farwest wrote:
So he made the decision to buy TV's and it has been a good thing for our youth.

Gary_Miller wrote:
Being good for the youth does not make the action correct.

farwest reply: Action not correct but being good for our youth means everything to us. They our the future and they need every tool available to them help them on their journey.

farwest wrote:No one is forcing but there is a feeling out there that you need it. The point is that the TV's we had would be no good because they can't play the video's.

I understand I think most every stake/ward was in the same position.

farwest wrote:Once again we could of had 10 TV's it wouldn't matter they don't play video's. Also FM said TV's are on a 16 year replacement plan so it would of been several years to replace any of the TV's we now have.

That could be the case. However, it seems that FM soon came around when they found out there was a problem with the existing TVs not being able to support the new curriculum. At least that's how it was in my stake. I think some good intended stake presidents who were enthused about the new curriculum just jumped the gun to soon with out considering the Budget Allowance guidelines and principles. Sometimes you just have to let the system work its self out.

farwest wrote:As I have stated before there is no point of having the "Come Follow Me" program if you can't implement it. All the hours and money put into it would be a waste if you cannot use it.

You are correct about that and it is also a church of revelation. If the stake president had not acted upon his impression we would be here in our stake over a year later not using the "Come Follow Me" program because we have no TV's to play it on.

The lord is in charge of this church and the Prophet is very a where of the needs of the church. I believe he knew the problems before it was implemented but decided it was important to implement right away and let the equipment problem work its self out in the system.

While it may not seem it at times the FM groups want to make sure the resources are available, just as much as you and me, to ensure the programs of the church are supported. However, they are governed by instructions and budget guidelines the limit what they can do at times.

farwest wrote:Once again you are correct and I have been thinking of a solution. I will suggest to the stake president that we need to sell those TV's and put the money back in the stake budget and be patient and wait another five to seven years for the TV's to reach the sixteen year replacement plan. (policy) Letter of the Law

The only problem with this solution is the Stake President does not have the authority to dispose of equipment. That falls under the FM responsibility.

farwest wrote:Action not correct but being good for our youth means everything to us.

One wrong does not make a right.

farwest wrote:They our the future and they need every tool available to them help them on their journey.

You won't get me to disagree with the youth being our future. You will not find a stronger advocate for our youth programs than me. That is why I'am so strong against leaders using Budget Allowance Money to fund equipment that should have been funded by other sources. Funds used in this manner take funds away from our youths activity budgets. If you do not have a youth activities budget you have no youth activities. If you have no youth activities you have inactive youth. When you have inactive youth you don't get them to church on Sunday. When you don't get them to church on Sunday you can't teach them the gospel. No matter how many TV you have it does you no good if the youth are not there to teach.

Once we organized a service project where a dozen of our Elders were going to build a shed for a widow in the ward. All the lumber was pre-cut and there was an unlimited supply of nails. But then we were told that we were only allowed to use 3 hammers and only one of them could be full-sized. Those who questioned the policy were made to feel guilty. Most of the Elders lost enthusiasm and the project floundered. But a couple of the guys who really like construction kept working at it.

Okay, that's not a true story (and not an outstanding parable either). When it comes to policies that aren't directly related to doctrine I don't mind people asking "why" and suggesting changes through the proper channels. But it appears that only Stake Presidents have much influence so I hope they really push for improvements. The situation described here just makes me sad. It seems that we, who frequent these LDS Tech discussions, should be the first to embrace all policies regarding technology in the church. And yet we are some of the most vocal critics of how the FM Group operates. Very sad.

Less than 2 years ago some of us who are part of this thread now were arguing about how (under the policy that seemed to be the only official policy at the time) we weren't allowed to have TVs larger than 25 inches in our churches. Then it turned out that the policy was outdated and FM Groups were already providing larger TVs but there was no way for most of us to know that, so we just felt guilty if our wards had larger TVs (and some of us were scolding each other for having larger TVs… even though it was already okay to have them). So, who knows what's really the most current thing now?

Meanwhile, I'm still dumbfounded that Stakes seem to have a lot of freedom to spend money on fancier-than-necessary equipment to improve their Stake Conference webcasts (which only happen a couple of times per year) but have their hands tied when it comes to TVs that would be used every Sunday. So, again, I hope Stake Presidents provide proper feedback. Policies regarding technology should be reviewed as often as new technology is introduced (in other words, very often).

mrrad wrote:When it comes to policies that aren't directly related to doctrine I don't mind people asking "why" and suggesting changes through the proper channels.

I don't mind people asking ether. However, until there is a change in policies we are obligated to follow the policies. That is part of following the Prophets.

mrrad wrote:But it appears that only Stake Presidents have much influence so I hope they really push for improvements.

If Stake Presidents feel its important then they should push for change.

mrrad wrote:The situation described here just makes me sad. It seems that we, who frequent these LDS Tech discussions, should be the first to embrace all policies regarding technology in the church.

It seems to me that we are the ones who embrace all the policies regarding technology. We are also the ones who try to influence policy change when we see there is a better way.

mrrad wrote:And yet we are some of the most vocal critics of how the FM Group operates. Very sad.

Your right we are the most vocal critics that is because some of the policies instated by local FM Groups just don't pass the common sense test. That the key issue faced by most stakes and wards, its like pulling teeth to get additional keys at times. If the FM Group does not feel like a certain position needs a key they are reluctant to issue an addition key. It should be up to the stake/ward to decide who needs a key. Not some list made put together by the FM Group.

mrrad wrote:Less than 2 years ago some of us who are part of this thread now were arguing about how (under the policy that seemed to be the only official policy at the time) we weren't allowed to have TVs larger than 25 inches in our churches.

If you recall the size of TV was a secondary argument. The main argument was the same one we are currently having in this thread. The one about stakes inappropriate use of Budget funds to purchase equipment that should of been purchased using FM Funds. Which as I recall your ward was one of those who purchase TV using budget funds.

Here is a link to the thread. https://tech.lds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=11306

mrrad wrote:Meanwhile, I'm still dumbfounded that Stakes seem to have a lot of freedom to spend money on fancier-than-necessary equipment to improve their Stake Conference webcasts (which only happen a couple of times per year) but have their hands tied when it comes to TVs that would be used every Sunday. So, again, I hope Stake Presidents provide proper feedback. Policies regarding technology should be reviewed as often as new technology is introduced (in other words, very often).

I agree I don't believe stakes should be using Budget funds to purchase such equipment ether. However, current policy says its OK to do so under certain conditions. So while I think it is wrong for a stake to take activity funds to do so, I will support the policy with every fiber of my body.

In this case, the FM was trying to do the right thing. He spent a substantial amount of money and time replacing old CRT TVs with new LCD TVs, and (probably) mounting the new TVs to the TV carts. The TV model he chose was probably one chosen by his leadership at Church HQ. Unfortunately, the model chosen was not capable of playing mp4 files to support the new Youth curriculum.

The stake president decided to purchase even newer TVs, even though all he really needed was a media player, such as the WD TV Live player, or perhaps a low-end Roku. If he had asked the FM, and the FM had enough annual budget funds, the FM would have provided a media player. If the FM's budget did not have funds available, he could have asked the stake to provide funds, and the FM would have purchased and installed media players on the TV carts.

Since the stake decided to purchase newer TVs, the FM had no choice but to move the older LCD TVs to other meetinghouses that needed them. His staff probably had to remove the older LCD TVs from the carts, and mount the newer LCD TVs to the carts.

We all do our parts, and we all try to follow the guidelines given to us. Communication is essential, more so in this case.

A related story:
About the time when our FM was installing 32-inch LCD TVs around the stake, one bishop was under the assumption that he had to spend the remainder of his ward budget by the end of the calendar year, or lose it. (He is a hospital administrator, and he thought the Church operated by the same rules.) So on Dec 31st (a year or two ago), he purchased a 40-inch LCD TV using his personal credit card, and immediately wrote himself a check to reimburse himself. I stumbled onto that purchase while performing maintenance on his ward's computer, and informed the FM of the purchase. Our FM was gracious, and mounted the new TV on a TV cart, removing the old CRT TV, and adding the new TV to his equipment inventory. We still tease the bishop for his misunderstanding, but we had to agree that he bought a nicer TV than the rest of us had. The FM and the stake president considered it a teaching moment for this young bishop.

In fairness to your young Bishop, it wasn't long ago that the ward budget was under a "use it or lose it" policy. Many times we would scramble to buy camping gear, paper plates, basketballs or other durable goods during the last week of December with our few hundred dollars of "surplus" funds. You know, stuff that we would eventually use anyway but, due to the budget policy, we didn't really have a lot of time to plan the purchases until we knew, for sure, that there really was a surplus.

mrrad wrote:In fairness to your young Bishop, it wasn't long ago that the ward budget was under a "use it or lose it" policy. Many times we would scramble to buy camping gear, paper plates, basketballs or other durable goods during the last week of December with our few hundred dollars of "surplus" funds. You know, stuff that we would eventually use anyway but, due to the budget policy, we didn't really have a lot of time to plan the purchases until we knew, for sure, that there really was a surplus.

The only thing this young bishop did improper was use the budget allowance to fund equipment that was the FMs responsibility.

The budget policies have always been one of use your budget or lose it. The policy with a couple of exceptions have always been, a ward is to return and surplus funds to the stake and the stake is to return them Church Headquarters.

The intent is the budget is there to use and a properly implemented ward activity program, along with a properly managed budget, should not have any excess funds.

Sometimes you don't know if the Primary and Relief Society really did spend all of their funds until the end of December is upon you and you've finished making all of your countless requests for receipts to be turned in. Policies are policies but, then again, people act like people.

I don't worry too much about it. If they turn in receipts in January, I count it against the new year's budget. Pay me now or pay me later, as the saying goes.

mrrad wrote:Sometimes you don't know if the Primary and Relief Society really did spend all of their funds until the end of December is upon you and you've finished making all of your countless requests for receipts to be turned in. Policies are policies but, then again, people act like people.

I was always able to tell the primary and RS exactly how much money they had at any given time, using the budget reports.

I get uncomfortable when we label using local unit budget to purchase TV's as "misuse of funds". Stake Presidents certainly have some limits, but generally pretty broad ability to direct funds as they see is best to move the work forward in the stake. Elder Packer has taught more than once that one concern of putting too much detail in the handbooks is that leaders don't feel they have flexibility to act as prompted by the spirit (See D&C 46:2 which refers to conducting meetings, but which was quoted in reference to handbooks in a leadership broadcast for Stake Presidents about 10 years ago.)

There are checks and balances in the system and ways both the FM group and the Stake President can appeal to another level of leadership if something really gets out of control.

Fascinating conversation so far, I wanted to add some things that may help clear up some of the controversy, and others, I'm not going to touch with a 100 ft pole.

In regards to the TV's: Each Area (DTA Area) may set it's own policies, as to what equipment is necessary and useful in the meetinghouse. In the US/Canada Current policy provides for:
1 28" TV per ward/branch in meetinghouse, additionally in larger meetinghouses 130, and 170 sizes respectively a 32", and 47" may be provided for the building, and not because of the units in the building.

In respect to the videos and the "Come Follow Me" program, I've had direct conversations with the Curriculum department about the issue, their response is that their is absolute no requirement to use the videos, they are provided as a resource that the teacher can use if they feel so inspired.

The guidebook for the come follow me program https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/guidebook?lang=eng also available form the front page of Come Follow Me. only mentions the videos in the context of the teachers using them in their personal study.

Increasing Your Effectiveness
Learning outlines also include links to brief videos about helping youth become converted. Also, training videos for the Aaronic Priesthood, Young Women, and Sunday School are available in the Leadership Training Library.

All of these videos feature real-life examples of leaders and teachers who are helping youth become converted to the gospel. You can study them individually or with other teachers to better understand the interactive nature of learning and teaching with youth.

All of that is to say, It seems the TV issue with come follow me has been misunderstood.

While I agree the gospel can be taught without videos (the Savior did), let me quote a typical lesson (Aaronic Priesthood, January, first lesson):

"Show the video “Fulfilling Your Duty to God,” and have the young men look for how the experiences depicted in the video helped the young men and others come to know Heavenly Father better."

It seems like

StevePoulsen wrote:"only mentions the videos in the context of the teachers using them in their personal study."

might apply to certain training videos more than those referenced in the lessons for showing in class.

Gary_Miller wrote:

eblood66 wrote:This seems to indicate (to me at least) that purchasing AV equipment with local budget funds is not prohibited and that the FM group should only worry about the equipment they provide and that local units are (completely) responsible (including for repair or replacement) for equipment they purchase.

Except if you look at the document as a whole you will see that, Local Unit Provided Equipment, was addressed in 4.1 and 7.3. However it was not addressed in 6.2, which would seem there is a mistake in ether 6.2 or 6.3.

I don't see a prohibition in any of the sections noted that says local unit funds can't be used for addition A/V Equipment. Quite the contrary actually if you look at 7.1 and 7.3.3.

bballrob wrote:

Gary_Miller wrote:

eblood66 wrote:This seems to indicate (to me at least) that purchasing AV equipment with local budget funds is not prohibited and that the FM group should only worry about the equipment they provide and that local units are (completely) responsible (including for repair or replacement) for equipment they purchase.

Except if you look at the document as a whole you will see that, Local Unit Provided Equipment, was addressed in 4.1 and 7.3. However it was not addressed in 6.2, which would seem there is a mistake in ether 6.2 or 6.3.

I don't see a prohibition in any of the sections noted that says local unit funds can't be used for addition A/V Equipment.Except that it is not addressed under funding in section 6.2 like it is in the other sections.

This leads me to believe that 6.3.2 is a cut and past typo in the document. 6.2 specifically only states that FM is the funding source for AV equipment.

bballrob wrote:Quite the contrary actually if you look at 7.1 and 7.3.3.

Section 7.1 addresses the tyoe of equipment used web casting. Section 7.3.3 states that LUBA may be used to purchase equipment for web casting (which AV equipment could be a part of, which does not include AV equipment placed in the meeting house media center.

rknelson wrote:(See D&C 46:2 which refers to conducting meetings, but which was quoted in reference to handbooks in a leadership broadcast for Stake Presidents about 10 years ago.)

I think using D&C 46:2 is a stretch for this discussing as it talks specifically about meetings. Interesting how we all get a different prospective from the provided training. I will be going back and review the training as this is not what I got from it at all.

rknelson wrote:While I agree the gospel can be taught without videos (the Savior did), let me quote a typical lesson (Aaronic Priesthood, January, first lesson):

"Show the video “Fulfilling Your Duty to God,” and have the young men look for how the experiences depicted in the video helped the young men and others come to know Heavenly Father better."

It seems like

StevePoulsen wrote:"only mentions the videos in the context of the teachers using them in their personal study."

might apply to certain training videos more than those referenced in the lessons for showing in class.

I would contend that showing video is an option, though probably a very popular option.

StevePoulsen wrote:The guidebook for the come follow me program https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/guidebook?lang=eng also available form the front page of Come Follow Me. only mentions the videos in the context of the teachers using them in their personal study.

Increasing Your Effectiveness
Learning outlines also include links to brief videos about helping youth become converted. Also, training videos for the Aaronic Priesthood, Young Women, and Sunday School are available in the Leadership Training Library.

All of these videos feature real-life examples of leaders and teachers who are helping youth become converted to the gospel. You can study them individually or with other teachers to better understand the interactive nature of learning and teaching with youth.

All of that is to say, It seems the TV issue with come follow me has been misunderstood.

Steve, this quote has NO reference to showing the videos in a classroom setting, this is a reference to the videos produced for teachers to get them used to the new curriculum. That is why it refers to Personal Study. The videos referenced in the curriculum are different than the videos meant for parents and teachers.

The debate about showing the videos ALL comes from the disaster that was the implementation of the curriculum without knowing the real circumstances that wards and stakes had been left in by many FM groups (mostly because the previous curriculum was very old and nobody showed the media along side them anymore).

It is, frankly, burying your head in the sand to think that the videos are not meant to be played as part of the curriculum. You can debate whether they are required or not, but the power behind many of those videos is incredible and when teaching this generation (whether we like it or not) we are responsible to teaching them in their mindset, culture, etc.., not making them learn the way we want them to - or the way that YOU are most comfortable with.

We have been losing 75% of our youth for years, let's get them back on track.

Perhaps my perceptions are off, but we seem to be getting highly emotional, so I'd like to apologize, as it was not my intention. rather I wanted to bring up the possibility that perhaps TV's and videos are not required for teachers to be effective. That it seems (to me) is more dependent upon the teacher and how much effort they put into their personal preparation for the lesson.

I do think it's a legitimate question if showing the video is a requirement of the curriculum, or if it's a local desire to use an optional resource. If there's a requirement, then there's a disconnect. If it's optional, then it becomes a "you can if you have" and we just have to be patient until things get replaced.

This isn't the first time I've see new church programs jump ahead of the funds to implement them.

The requirement is to teach by the Spirit. Many teachers are still learning how to do this.

The new lesson materials are wonderful. The audiovisual resources are magnificent and will aid in bringing the Spirit into the teaching situation. And we should do all that we can to make them available to our teachers and to help them be effective.

I attended a conference recently where the presenter discovered that the two videos she planned to show were not available through the Church firewall. She checked what was available and found two she thought would work even better. She showed one of them during her workshop.

Afterward, she said the one she showed was better than the first two she had planned to use. And then she said that she did not show the second one because the Spirit was so strong it was not needed, and she did not want to detract from the experience the workshop participants were having.

That's teaching by the Spirit.

While our teachers get to that point, they will be helped and more effective as they have available to them all of the wonderful approved materials that are out there. And that's what technology specialists have been asked to do.

lajackson wrote:And we should do all that we can to make them available to our teachers and to help them be effective.

I'd agree with that, but I'm sensing differing definitions of "we" and "all that we can".

russellhltn wrote:

lajackson wrote:And we should do all that we can to make them available to our teachers and to help them be effective.

I'd agree with that, but I'm sensing differing definitions of "we" and "all that we can".

I hear you. I will take care of the teachers I am responsible to support. You can take care of yours.

And because of this little thing called agency, "all that we can" for me ends at the point where I have done all I think I will be able to do to influence the next person in the process to help out, either directly with that person or by reaching out to others who might also influence that person.

It is not easy. In fact, it is very frustrating sometimes.

I think we're just dancing in circles around each other. The real issues are:
1-Are the downloadable video resources from the church useful and effective? Yes.
2-Is every building stocked with enough equipment to allow sufficient use of these resources? No.
3-Are the members who know about this problem frustrated about it? Absolutely yes.
4-Are the policies about obtaining new equipment clear (including whether it's purchased or donated)? Depends on whom you ask.
5-Are these policies easily found? No.
6-Are these policies in flux? Yes.
7-Are there cases where local leaders have said, "I guess there's nothing I can do about this" and have stopped trying improve access to videos and A/V equipment? Yes.
8-Is this acceptable? You decide.
9-What can the average "Ward Technology Specialist" do to improve the situation? Good question.
10-Shall we pass judgement on each other based on how we and/or our local leaders have responded to these concerns? Sure, why not?

One would think that the last two years of hinting around that the Church is coming up with some kind of process and knowing my own secret conversations I've had, something is bound to be coming out soon... Is our tech conference going to be the place we finally learn what we're going to be able to do in the 3rd year of Come Follow Me curriculum, and potentially a new curriculum focused on the Adults as well?

This has been an interesting exchange to follow. In case anyone thinks this is an isolated concern may I point out that I (stake Sunday School president) am struggling to find answers to all the same issues pointed out by mrrad. My impression is that the curriculum group has gotten well ahead of FM group policies. If anyone has heard of new policies which will fix this disconnect I would love to hear of them. In the absence of a coherent policy that bridges this gap we risk individual stakes spending sacred funds in a haphazard manner to address this issue. How sad if those funds are spent just as a new policy is about to emerge.

stevenbaxter wrote:TMy impression is that the curriculum group has gotten well ahead of FM group policies.

I've seen it twice before: Computers for MLS and Internet. First they were introduced and stake could opt in on their dime, then in about a year or two the church paid for it. My guess is it's a budgeting issue. For whatever reason, the budget needed for church-wide implementation doesn't "arrive" at the same time as the "program" that needs it.

Needless to say, it does cause frustration.

This might be of interest to this post. Particularly the section "Equipment and Furnishings". Look at the line for TVs...https://www.lds.org/callings/sunday-sch ... t?lang=eng

jkentner's reply was encouraging so I pushed an inquiry up to the local FM group. Their response shows no movement. It seems that any TV with even an RCA jack is considered adequate, including the old combo TV/VCR units in some of our libraries. Here's their response:

"I looked at the lds.org website location that Brother Baxter references. I see that the inventory appears to list two small TV’s per unit. I believe that is in error, based on the instruction we have had previously. I have copied you on my email to the Church Purchasing department asking for clarification.

Standard quantities of TV’s for meetinghouses are (unless this has been recently changed):

1 Large TV per building
1 Small TV per ward unit in the building

Each TV should be equipped with a VCR or DVD Player, depending on what the materials in the Material Center require.

Stake Centers are sometimes provided with two large TV’s, if an additional TV is needed to facilitate meetinghouse webcast broadcasts into overflow seating areas.

Older TV’s are not replaced just because they are older than the current approved standard TV. TV’s are replaced when they meet the replacement standard, which is basically that they no longer function. Older TV’s that only have coax cable input jacks can also be replaced. Please let me know if you feel that any of the TV’s in your stake meet replacement standards."

As you can see, their position doesn't provide any assistance on this issue.

It is interesting that the FM community considers a 32-inch LCD TV as large. When we received the first such TV in our stake center, I started using it for presentations in the high council room. However, it is impractical to display the Calendar from lds.org on a 32-inch screen. I would use a projector, but we would have to turn off the lights in the room.

drepouille wrote:It is interesting that the FM community considers a 32-inch LCD TV as large. When we received the first such TV in our stake center, I started using it for presentations in the high council room. However, it is impractical to display the Calendar from lds.org on a 32-inch screen.

I'd note that prior to the arrival of flat screen TVs, you'd probably never think to do a computer presentation on a TV set. TVs were for showing videos, not power points.

I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, but that the usage has changed.

stevenbaxter wrote:Each TV should be equipped with a VCR or DVD Player, depending on what the materials in the Material Center require.

...so your FM Group thinks the main use for these TVs is showing DVDs and VHS tapes. Sigh. I'm still waiting for that promised DVD (or set of DVDs) produced by the church for the Come Follow Me media. Double sigh.

Meanwhile, in a certain place I know about, the only media used in Sunday lessons is played through a (not authorized) Bluray player that can play downloaded MP4 files through its USB input or an (unauthorized) Apple TV that someone provided or someone will hook a computer up to the monitor's VGA inputs.

What's a VCR? Oh, yes. I've seen one of those at my grandpa's house. :p

From this page... https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/train/news?lang=eng

A DVD containing videos for class use and for teacher training will be available through distribution centers in 2014. These videos can also be downloaded.

I'm in a stake that does purchase equipment occasionally under the direction of our Stake President. We work with our FM Group and keep them apprised of what we purchase. I don't wish to debate this.

Walmart.com currently has a 32" 720p TCL-Roku TV with the Roku built into the TV for $188 (online only, but stocked in many stores for same day pickup). We find teachers are often confused by selecting the right input on the TV. This TV is very easy to use for playing the videos we keep on a USB flash attached to TV's.

Since a combo TV/DVD player showed up, I've grown to love them. No wires, no mess, no tuning to ch3, it just works.

Our FM Group gave us a couple of flat screen TV/DVD player combo units. They have USB ports so you can look at still pictures or play audio directly from a flash drive. But those USB ports do not support playing MPEG4 files, so they're useless for playing videos downloaded from LDS.org unless someone knows how to turn those downloaded files into DVDs… which I do… but I'm getting tired of making a new DVD each month.

What make and model are the TV's? I ask because some TV's have hidden menus that once accessed, can enable MP4 files to be played via the USB port.

mrrad wrote:From this page... https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/train/news?lang=eng
A DVD containing videos for class use and for teacher training will be available through distribution centers in 2014. These videos can also be downloaded.

I was in Deseret Book yesterday and there was a Collection of DVDs for Come Follow Me. It just can't keep up with the changes year over year that are put in place.

johnshaw wrote:I was in Deseret Book yesterday and there was a Collection of DVDs for Come Follow Me.

The distribution center item #12145000 can be found at store.lds.org at Come, Follow Me: Video Resources for Youth

Biggles wrote:What make and model are the TV's? I ask because some TV's have hidden menus that once accessed, can enable MP4 files to be played via the USB port.

We have the same problem with our LG 32" ezSign TVs. Apparently the TVs are designed to be commercial sign displays. (http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/lg-ezsi ... -32LD452B/). I was hoping there was a firmware update, but I've not found one.

Many of our members want an Apple TV, but the FM Group and Bishop have nixed that one. My next experiment will be with a Chromecast. The primary concern with these small devices is that they're too easy to carry off.

What about the DVD player itself? Ours are all older models that have composite video. Are there any modern DVD players that can play video from USB? That might work, and are less likely to disappear.

mcallaghan wrote:Many of our members want an Apple TV, but the FM Group and Bishop have nixed that one.

If this is streaming over the Internet, that's not a good idea.

mcallaghan wrote:My next experiment will be with a Chromecast.

See Chromecast not connecting to the internet. If I understand this, you're OK with streaming content from your device, but trying to stream content over the web is no-go. But can you teach the users the difference?

mcallaghan wrote:Are there any modern DVD players that can play video from USB?

Worth checking. Make sure they can play videos. Some years ago I was looking for exactly this, but found the USB port was just for "playing" JPEGs (stills).

Streaming videos from lds.org is what they are doing now. Some of them use their phones, and their own data plan, which is fine by me. But many do stream over the building WiFi. So far, this hasn't been a problem. I guess we have decent bandwidth. We have been pushing folks to download the videos ahead of time, of course. The hard part is connecting their devices to the TVs. I'm trying to simplify things for everyone.

mcallaghan wrote:But many do stream over the building WiFi. So far, this hasn't been a problem.

It's fine until it isn't. But I wouldn't support a solution that can't stream locally and requires web streaming.

I'm curious as to why Apple TV was nixed. Was it that or something else?

We have two wards in the building, so the bishop told me it has to be done by the FM Group. They said, "Not on our radar" or something to that effect. Went back to the bishop, who said to look for another solution. I think the concern is two-fold: the first is the idea that it would be easy to steal. The second is the expense, particularly if we physically mount one to all three of our TVs.

mcallaghan wrote:We have two wards in the building, so the bishop told me it has to be done by the FM Group. They said, "Not on our radar" or something to that effect. Went back to the bishop, who said to look for another solution. I think the concern is two-fold: the first is the idea that it would be easy to steal. The second is the expense, particularly if we physically mount one to all three of our TVs.

This is a very strange line of conversation, What is the Stake Technology Specialists doing in this regard, the Stake Clerk, or the Stake President or High Councilman over Sunday School and/or Physical Facilities? I'm not sure why a 'bishop' is saying it needs to be done by the 'FM Group' - There is a policy that outlines this area that should be consulted and it's really only the stake people that can get involved with the FM Group. If this hasn't been done, I'd suggest getting the Stake on board...

mcallaghan wrote:What about the DVD player itself? Ours are all older models that have composite video. Are there any modern DVD players that can play video from USB? That might work, and are less likely to disappear.

About two years ago we bought a couple of Sony Blu-ray players (outside of the FM Group's assistance, I'm afraid) which have USB ports on the front. We download the video files from LDS.org and they play quite nicely from USB flash drives. The players we bought were a pretty good bargain at Sam's Club. They have both composite SD output (red, white and yellow RCA connections) as well as HDMI. The newer model only has HDMI, so it wouldn't be as useful with an older monitor.

I'm guessing that you can find other players with exactly the same ability to play video files from USB drives. The nice thing is that, with one player, we can also play any CDs, DVDs or Blu-ray discs (although the church doesn't have a ton of Blu-ray material… yet ).

I think the DVD player with USB port actually might make more sense in the long run. That way, we don't have to worry so much about devices. Even with Chromecast, you have to plug it into AC power, install the Chromecast app on your device, etc. It should be a lot simpler to teach people to download the high-res version of the video from lds.org, copy it to your flash drive, plug it into the DVD player here, and click play on the remote.

It seems that policy (now) reads that either the FM Group or the Local Units could purchase AV Equipment as long as it isn't installed and that inventory is kept: https://www.lds.org/help/support/meetin ... lang=eng#7. Our meetinghouse has a single display device on a cart to share with 3 wards which has led to our teachers nearly universally either not using any media or they bring their own display devices from home if they have them. I'd guess that working through the FM Group is a great approach however our bishop is ready to purchase 2 display devices for our ward until the FMG is able to respond to our needs.

We found 24" TCL Roku TV's (Roku built-in the TV) for $99 over the holidays. Replacing the cord on the TV with a 12' version ($6 on Amazon) makes it very easy to use anywhere. We also found 55" TCL Roku TV's for $380. The 24" TV's are easy to carry without a cart for smaller classes. The 55" TV on a cart made for large TV's (another $200) works well for large groups. We have several 24" TV's and one 55" TV in each building in our stake.

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but after reading through this, I just feel like I need to say something.

I think it's great that we're trying to empower and teach our youth. I also have a growing concern that our youth are becoming increasingly addicted to media, whether it's television, social media, etc. Even the most well designed curriculum videos from the Church can't replace the personalized impact of the Spirit to a teacher within the classroom they are responsible for. The new Come Follow Me curriculum was largely designed to provide greater flexibility for teachers to adapt their teaching to the needs of their students in accordance with the promptings of the Spirit.
When I prayerfully prepare for a lesson, after sufficient thought and study, I always get at least some impression regarding what to teach, and only sometimes is it exactly aligned with one of the available videos for that lesson.
Often times, the impressions are to deep dive on one or a few verses of scriptures or ask specific questions in group discussions, though I definitely have had moments when I felt strongly impressed to share specific videos or conference talks.

While I can certainly understand the frustration associated with feeling like technology decisions are being micromanaged to a degree that's hindering the work, I recommend being very careful to avoid any kind of overreliance on media or videos. They absolutely can and should be appropriately used to bring the Spirit into the classroom. They can also allow teachers to become very complacent and lose sight of what they really need to be doing to reach the youth and grow in their capabilities as teachers.

devinbost wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:57 am Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but after reading through this, I just feel like I need to say something.

I think it's great that we're trying to empower and teach our youth. I also have a growing concern that our youth are becoming increasingly addicted to media, whether it's television, social media, etc. Even the most well designed curriculum videos from the Church can't replace the personalized impact of the Spirit to a teacher within the classroom they are responsible for. The new Come Follow Me curriculum was largely designed to provide greater flexibility for teachers to adapt their teaching to the needs of their students in accordance with the promptings of the Spirit.
When I prayerfully prepare for a lesson, after sufficient thought and study, I always get at least some impression regarding what to teach, and only sometimes is it exactly aligned with one of the available videos for that lesson.
Often times, the impressions are to deep dive on one or a few verses of scriptures or ask specific questions in group discussions, though I definitely have had moments when I felt strongly impressed to share specific videos or conference talks.

While I can certainly understand the frustration associated with feeling like technology decisions are being micromanaged to a degree that's hindering the work, I recommend being very careful to avoid any kind of overreliance on media or videos. They absolutely can and should be appropriately used to bring the Spirit into the classroom. They can also allow teachers to become very complacent and lose sight of what they really need to be doing to reach the youth and grow in their capabilities as teachers.

It is pretty strange to come onto a board dedicated to 'tech' and clerking in the church to chastise them about their concern about doing the thing they are called to do. If this were a 'teach' board, sure dismiss the conversation away as one wants. Let's let people with callings dealing with tech - deal with tech for their callings, and let people who focus on teaching deal with how they utilize the tech while they are teaching. I'm forever grateful that - To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

It is pretty strange to come onto a board dedicated to 'tech' and clerking in the church to chastise them about their concern about doing the thing they are called to do. If this were a 'teach' board, sure dismiss the conversation away as one wants. Let's let people with callings dealing with tech - deal with tech for their callings, and let people who focus on teaching deal with how they utilize the tech while they are teaching. I'm forever grateful that - To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven

I'm very sorry if I offended you. I wanted to say something because I came across this thread as a new stake tech specialist with the intent of trying to understand how to configure streaming and found myself instead reading pages of contention about Church policy and appropriate use of budgets.

Exactly, in our role as technology specialists we are responsible for tech being available for our leaders and teachers to use in as non-invasive way as possible. The biggest disruption to teaching with technology is when that technology doesn't work well, or is overly complicated or requires onerous steps to walk through until it becomes available. Regardless of how a teacher preparers, there is likely a few teachers each hour we support that will want to use technology (your reference back to Come Follow Me probably shows your age) because the original Come Follow Me for Youth was the youth curriculum that came out in the early 2010's. This program introduced a great deal of reliance on technology and the videos the church had been producing. If you including the history of technology in our meetinghouses, you'll understand why tech specialists have had to rely on knowing policy and budgeting as a requirement to doing their callings.

There are very good technology related threads, but it might be a good idea to avoid threads started back in 2014 unless you have the history of what was going on all that time. In many areas it was a real battle just to get Internet in the meetinghouse, it was like a war getting a TV that could be used to show a Mormon Message (back then) - The entire program was released by the Priesthood Department, talking to the IT Department, but they failed to bring in Facilities, and as it was released at the end of the year, facilities was flooded with requests for TV's and equipment to support the new Come Follow Me for Youth program with limited budget funds (and their individual performance evaluations were based on how much they come under the budget).

Even now, we've been told for nearly a decades that FM will not mount TV's on the walls of RS/P or HC rooms, Bishop's offices, etc... but now, all over this board we see that some FM's are doing it... so we come together here to see whether policy has changed or if budget was used, etc... this has been the greatest benefit to our callings over the years, the democracy of information to keep Church Employees honest.