Ward Maps

166 postsstarted by kevandcan 127,974 viewsoriginal topic

New Member
#1
With all of the mapping mash-ups popping up, I couldn't help but think it'd be neat to have a map that showed where all of the members of a ward lived. I originally started a mash-up just for myself and was amazed to see how many members lived around me. I introduced it to my ward and the feedback was great. So a week or two ago I sat down to code up a version that could be used by anyone that wanted to. In the last week or so, I've had 100+ wards sign up and received very positive feedback. Is there any interest/efforts underway to put this type of functionality into the LDS.org ward/unit sites?

To see what I'm talking about, take a look at http://wardmap.theballfamily.org/intro.asp.

I'm willing to share my code base with folks on the LDS.org team if it might help. Thanks!
Senior Member
#2
Very cool! I'll share your info with the people at the Church who are in charge of LUWS (Local Unit Web Site).

Tom
New Member
#3

Great Idea

This is one of the better idea's i've seen in a long time. This would increase the usability of the member list in the ward website by a lot. I put my ward in and was impressed how well it worked. It was cool to get a feel for where every one lived.

Some ideas how else it could be used in combination with the ward websites:

I log into the ward site, click on a member, and get driving directions from my house to the members house. - This would especially be helpful for wards that are spread out.

Be able to create custom groups of members. For example, the Teachers Quorum Advisor could create a group for each fast offering route and print a map for each member of the quorum.

Lots of possibilities here - very good Idea

-Lincoln
New Member
#4
lincles wrote:This is one of the better idea's i've seen in a long time. This would increase the usability of the member list in the ward website by a lot. I put my ward in and was impressed how well it worked. It was cool to get a feel for where every one lived.

Some ideas how else it could be used in combination with the ward websites:

I log into the ward site, click on a member, and get driving directions from my house to the members house. - This would especially be helpful for wards that are spread out.

Be able to create custom groups of members. For example, the Teachers Quorum Advisor could create a group for each fast offering route and print a map for each member of the quorum.

Lots of possibilities here - very good Idea

-Lincoln
We struggled with creating a usable church map for emergency preparedness. This included several techies as well.
This took me five minutes and worked like a charm. I am in the process of pitching it to the bishop. Very well done.
New Member
#5
Thanks for the kind words. I've received about 50 emails from the 100+ wards signed up thus far, and it seems like the majority of users really like this at a leadership level.
New Member
#6

Question for Tom

I know these forums aren't for church policy -- I just want to make sure I understand something. With these mapping tools, we're submitting ward membership data to an external (albeit apparently secure) server. Is this basically one of those cases of "if the Bishop says it's okay, then we can use it" kind of resources, pending any formal policy guidelines from Church Offices?

Thanks,

Aaron
Senior Member
#7
Aaron wrote:I know these forums aren't for church policy -- I just want to make sure I understand something. With these mapping tools, we're submitting ward membership data to an external (albeit apparently secure) server. Is this basically one of those cases of "if the Bishop says it's okay, then we can use it" kind of resources, pending any formal policy guidelines from Church Offices?

Thanks,

Aaron
We are having discussions internally today about this issue and I'll post more when I know more.

Tom
Senior Member
#8
I've had discussions today with managers from various departments within the Church. It was decided within these meetings that we respectfully ask you not to upload your ward files to this web site for the following reason.
  1. The Church does not want other non-Church operated web sites to be aggregating data from various units around the world. When you upload your whole ward into this site, all members names and addresses are put on a central server not maintained by the Church. This data is to be kept private and confidential and although Kevin has every good intention to do so, we do not want to create exposure to him or to the Church for a breach of security or accuracy of this data.
  2. The Church has had a long standing policy that your use of the data exported from MLS or LUWS be kept securely and for your personal or private use. For example, if I download the CVS file to my computer for my use, I need to keep that file (or my computer) secure from others. Since this data, once uploaded to the site, could be shared within your ward to anyone who knows the username and password, it could easily be abused.
What Kevin has done with his site is very cool. We would like to add this functionality to the LUWS and because of Kevin's great work, we are organizing a team to understand if and how quickly we could add this type of capability to our site. We have asked for Kevin's help since he was the original author of the code.

We DO NOT WANT to stifle creativity and innovation. We want to encourage people to develop applications that benefit members and the Church. However, we also want to ensure that we follow policies and guidelines that the Church has implemented. To that end, we ask that no one create a web site that asks for people to upload their membership data that was previously exported from MLS or LUWS. If you have a web site that asks individuals to input data on their own, we currently do not have a policy about that.

I am working with the top managers at the Church on developing a more comprehensive guidance document that I will share with you once it is complete. This document will help you know what you can or cannot do and what steps you must take when working with Church data. Until then, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to private message me.

Thank you for your support

Tom
New Member
#9

Application removed

Just a quick follow-up note that the application and all associated data have been removed from the ward map server. Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Community Administrator
#10
For the benefit of those of us who didn't look at it when it was up, would it be possible for us to see it using dummy data? I'm not sure how hard it would be to dummy something up.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#11
kevandcan wrote:Just a quick follow-up note that the application and all associated data have been removed from the ward map server. Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks! We appreciate your support. Your innovation and implementation of this idea is excellent!

Tom
New Member
#12
RussellHltn wrote:For the benefit of those of us who didn't look at it when it was up, would it be possible for us to see it using dummy data? I'm not sure how hard it would be to dummy something up.
Doesn't do it justice, but here's an image of the interactive ward maps:

Image
Image
Community Administrator
#13
kevandcan wrote:Doesn't do it justice, but here's an image of the interactive ward maps:
Thanks, that helps.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Community Administrator
#14
tomw wrote:It was decided within these meetings that we respectfully ask you not to upload your ward files to this web site for the following reason.
I think a copy of that post should be put in the announcements section under something like "Church Policy". No doubt this issue will come up again on this forum and in others and it would be best to have a copy in a place that's easily findable.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#15
I'm actually working on a more a document that will be put in the announcements. Thanks for the suggestion.

Tom
New Member
#16
Just some thoughts -

First of all I think this thread is exactly why this will be a great site. A member had an excellent idea, shared it on the forum, discussed, then the church IT saw the benefit and decided to look into the possibility of adopting the code. I hope everything works out and that the feature can be implemented on the unit sites.


If for whatever reason it doesn't get implemented what about a locally installed version of the tool - something that unit leaders could install on their own machine and then draw from a local list. This way the member lists would not need to be aggregated in a central location. I really think integration into the unit sites would be ideal, but this is just another option in case it doesn't work out.


Let me know if there is any way I can help out. I have web programming experience in several languages and would be happy to help any way I can.

Thanks again for this great forum

-Lincoln
New Member
#17
lincles wrote:Just some thoughts -

First of all I think this thread is exactly why this will be a great site. A member had an excellent idea, shared it on the forum, discussed, then the church IT saw the benefit and decided to look into the possibility of adopting the code. I hope everything works out and that the feature can be implemented on the unit sites.


If for whatever reason it doesn't get implemented what about a locally installed version of the tool - something that unit leaders could install on their own machine and then draw from a local list. This way the member lists would not need to be aggregated in a central location. I really think integration into the unit sites would be ideal, but this is just another option in case it doesn't work out.


Let me know if there is any way I can help out. I have web programming experience in several languages and would be happy to help any way I can.

Thanks again for this great forum

-Lincoln

It's funny you should mention this...I was just thinking today that that would be a great solution. Now if I only had the time. I'm happy to send my code to whomever would like to attempt to create a local version of this. I know ASP really well and .NET and Java ok, but don't have the time right now to recreate. If you're interested in creating a good local version, email me at wardmap@theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin
Senior Member
#18
lincles wrote:Just some thoughts -

First of all I think this thread is exactly why this will be a great site. A member had an excellent idea, shared it on the forum, discussed, then the church IT saw the benefit and decided to look into the possibility of adopting the code. I hope everything works out and that the feature can be implemented on the unit sites.


If for whatever reason it doesn't get implemented what about a locally installed version of the tool - something that unit leaders could install on their own machine and then draw from a local list. This way the member lists would not need to be aggregated in a central location. I really think integration into the unit sites would be ideal, but this is just another option in case it doesn't work out.


Let me know if there is any way I can help out. I have web programming experience in several languages and would be happy to help any way I can.

Thanks again for this great forum

-Lincoln
That is why we have these forums. I'm very excited about the innovation that the community is already doing. Some ideas we will pick up at a Church level and some are best implemented by the community but in the end it benefits more people.

Tom
New Member
#19
I think this type of information would be very helpful on a stake level as well. My dad was a high councilor for several years and was involved in a number of ward splits. He took the data he got form the Membership program at the time ( it was the dos based version) and made it up loadable to a mapping program(he used streets). In the upload, Elders were assigned one pin color, High priests another, and so on. These maps were intended to help calculate the numbers for ward/stake splits. If in doing this, something of that type of differentiation available to those who would need to know could be a big help to those people willing to use it.
#20

Suggestion: Integration of several ideas?

I realize that this particular idea has been pushed for integration into LUWS... I'm wondering if some other ideas presented elsewhere on this forum could be implemented into the same idea? Such as the ward boundaries maps discussed in the [thread=37]Meetinghouse Locator thread[/thread] or the ideas to help with boundary realignments suggested by thegordo earlier in this thread?

It would be nice to see an integrated solution instead of piece-meal features when it comes to geographically-based data. Whatever GIS system the Church uses internally to map ward boundaries would be nice to link to the membership data, meetinghouse locator, facilities management so users in all areas of the Church and out can make meaningful decisions based on geography.

Some uses I can forsee:
  • Granular view of members
    • PH quorum president to see a map of my quorum members
    • Primary teacher to see a map of the class members
    • Individual HT/VT routes (where do my families live?)
    • Unit boundary realignment (PH distribution, building distribution)
  • PH/RS Assignment planning
    • Plot fast-offering routes that are efficient with route directions (which I did manually when I was DQP a decade or more ago)
    • HT/VT districts, companionships, families
  • Statistical views
    • Missionary referrals
    • Convert baptisms
  • Facilities Management
    • Membership distribution to help plan new building sites
Whatever happens, the possibilities are cool and amazing! :cool:
Senior Member
#21
LUWS is scheduled for some major work and we plan on reviewing all of the suggestions and bugs at that time.

Tom
Senior Member
#22

Relative vs. Absolute URL's to Forum Threads

Tom,

I just tried to edit kgthunder's link to another thread by making it a relative link rather than an absolute one (we aren't going to be in beta forever, and thus the beta.tech.lds.org would break the link when we go live). However, it appends http:// to the front of whatever I type in. Perhaps you can show me how it is done? Thanks. :rolleyes:
Senior Member
#23
mkmurray wrote:Tom,

I just tried to edit kgthunder's link to another thread by making it a relative link rather than an absolute one (we aren't going to be in beta forever, and thus the beta.tech.lds.org would break the link when we go live). However, it appends http:// to the front of whatever I type in. Perhaps you can show me how it is done? Thanks. :rolleyes:
Read here on how to link to threads and posts. These links will be relative.

Tom
#24
Thanks mkmurray for the update and tomw for the link - am I missing the link to this in the normal navigation, or is it buried several layers deep? Could it be moved to a more conspicuous location for easy reference?
Senior Member
#25
kgthunder wrote:Thanks mkmurray for the update and tomw for the link - am I missing the link to this in the normal navigation, or is it buried several layers deep? Could it be moved to a more conspicuous location for easy reference?

I believe the way to find it is FAQ on the black navigation bar near the top. From there, it appears to be one or two more clicks away.
Senior Member
#26
kgthunder wrote:Thanks mkmurray for the update and tomw for the link - am I missing the link to this in the normal navigation, or is it buried several layers deep? Could it be moved to a more conspicuous location for easy reference?
The other way to find it is to look at the bottom of the page (while viewing or writing a post) and you will see a box that says "Posting Rules". In this box you will see a link called "vB Code" which links you to all of the legitimate vBulletin markup codes you can use and how to use them.

Tom
New Member
#27
tomw wrote:What Kevin has done with his site is very cool. We would like to add this functionality to the LUWS and because of Kevin's great work, we are organizing a team to understand if and how quickly we could add this type of capability to our site. We have asked for Kevin's help since he was the original author of the code.
In our ward, we did something very similar, but used Google Earth to avoid some of the privacy issues mentioned in this thread. It offers very similar functionality to Google Maps, but not online, so that access to the data can be restricted to those who should have it.
New Member
#28

Boundary Changes

We rearranged the boundaries within our stake last year. I had never been involved in boundary changes before, and I was shocked at the amount of work involved in doing it right. It was a significant part of my life for over a year. I of course wanted to be able to put the data on a map, draw boundaries and do "what if" scenarios with immediate feedback. I started looking at various GIS solutions and playing with different ideas, and was shocked at the cost of any product that was useful, and the lack of anything out there that did what I needed.

I ended up combining MS MapPoint, MSAcceess, Yahoo, & a custom program I wrote in VB (called "GeoCodesMP") to do it. I originally thought I could do most of it in MapPoint, but then I realized what a pain it was to change polygons, and how sad the data was. Even when 2006 was finally available, it wasn't much improvement. The data was old, and more importantly, there was no centerline data included, putting everyone's house squarely in the middle of the road, right down the middle of a lot of urban ward boundaries. I was almost ready to write my own GIS program to parse the Census Tiger/LINE files and mange boundaries, but I didn't have *that* much time on my hands!

Here's the process I ended up with:
1. Export membership from MLS
2. Use GeoCodesMP to append Long/Lat info to the file through the Yahoo mapping API.
3. Import the data into MapPoint, geocoding based on Lat/Long rather than address.
4. Break stake up into many (sub-ward) geocodes by drawing polygons.
Each polygon has exactly one text box in it with the boundary name.
All polygons butt up against adjacent shapes.
5. Use GeoCodesMP to export data from MapPoint, tagged with geocodes
(MapPoint merely allows you to export the data within a single polygon)
6. Import the data into specially prepared Access Database
7. Run a series of 7 macros to build additional tables to establish baselines
and make stat calculations easier.

The database itself is pretty involved; looking at my old file here I see 10 tables, 35 queries (3 are temporary), 4 reports, 5 macros, and a VBA module.

At this point we had a system where we could easily assign geocodes to different wards and get instant updates on statistics, as well as view details. (We did end up massaging geocode boundaries, which meant that we had to restart at step 4. Actually, in the course of a year, we ended up refreshing the data and re-geocoding it, too, which was a pain.)

Once we did everything, it was beautiful. We were able to easily complete the paperwork for Salt Lake (using real numbers, not wild guesses), and after the changes were approved I handed each bishop a huge packet with a overview maps, detail maps of the changes, summary reports of stat changes, and detailed reports of families moving in, moving out, major calling losses, etc.

The downside: Now that we made it look easy, all the wards think we have a fancy GIS, and they all want a copy of it so they can refine the geocodes for emergency preparedness. I told them they're welcome to a tagged list and copies of our maps, but they don't believe me when I tell them that there's no program they can borrow to easily sit down and do everything they want.

The overall result? Fantastic. The process? Ugly! The idea that units across the globe go through this process all the time, and while some are probably simple "This ward's huge. Let's draw a line down the middle and split it, and guess at the stats for the paperwork" revisions, I'm sure many have had more effort put into them than ours -- the total amount of duplicated & wasted effort just boggles my mind!

Now that I've been through the process the hard way, I realize how much (time or money) a system would be worth to me that made it easier. If someone wanted to sell me a product that would do it all the easy way, I'd sell my firstborn on the black market and write a check for $1000 in a heartbeat. (Okay, maybe not the first part. Shouldn't fib on a church board...)

Anyway, that's my story. Just had to share it, since we were talking about boundary changes. BTW, if anyone is in dire need something to help them organize a boundary change and is geeky enough to work with a really raw toolset, you're welcome to what I have. I can't offer a lot of support, though, because I've got a lot of other projects that I need to devote some serious time to right now.
Member
#29
Looks like I'll need to halt my efforts as well. I wasn't aware of the others who have been working on this. I've been working on one for our ward using Perl/MySQL/PHP. I export the data from MLS, use a Perl script to load the DB and check Lat/Long on everything, and then the users use the PHP interface for search criteria and maps. The server involved was my own, hosted by my company, utilizing SSL. I'm a clerk for our ward currently so I already had access to the data, and the Bishop approved who did and didn't have access. It's still not in a "Finished state" as a large number of the features we wanted to add still need to be implemented. Before I started on this project, I spent some time talking to the various leaders who would need access as well as falling back on some of my own experience in some of these positions to determine what features were needed and would be useful. I would like to list some of what I found here in hopes it may be helpful for what the Church is working on.

1. Search Criteria

This is actually a much more difficult issue than it may at first appear - probably the most difficult part of the whole thing. Quite often, what is needed with these maps is not a map of all members in the ward, it's a map of members meeting certain criteria such as all the elders, all the single parent homes, all new members, all homes containing children between 12-18, etc. Some of these searches are pretty obvious such searches to help with planning home teaching or visiting teaching routes, but others were a bit less expected and tended to come from the Bishop and fell along the lines of "well I'm going to be in X area today, and after we finish our visit there, I'd like for us to go visit all Y type families in the nearby area".

In working out how the search criteria would function, the first thing I had to realize was that they were not searching for individuals. They were searching for families that contained individuals of X type. That made everything much easier once I started working along those lines. I also realized that recognizing whether or not a particular person was either a head of household or a spouse to the head of household was important as well as their other attributes (age, gender, priesthood, etc.) so my search form took on more the form of the family (fathers criteria, mother's criteria, children criteria) with and/or options available between the different household members. This gave the program a fair amount of flexibility in what could actually be searched, though I always felt my form layout could somehow be better than it was to help cut down on possible confusion (Searching for all Elders would require filling out a slot for Father matching elder as well as filling out a child slot matching elder since elders could be present in a household as either children or parents).

As a separate criteria from this, I also allowed them to select one of the households in the ward and specify that all results must be within X miles of that household (as the crow flies).


2. Display results

It's tricky to map points like this where there may be a fair amount of data needed from each point and yet keep that data from obscuring the map in some way that makes it less than useful. I had all the traditional map features included (drag, zoom in and out, etc.) and am presently using a generic diamond shaped icon large enough to be noticed but small enough to stay out of the way. I had some discussion going on about the possibility of using icons composed of colored bars to represent different things about each household with significance being placed on the location of the bars as well ( husband member/priesthood, wife member, children, etc.).

My icons would allow you to mouse over them for some info and click on them for additional info. The info displayed was something I was in the process of allowing them to select from the search form (Head of Household name, phone number, names of all household members, ages of all household members, priesthood held, address, etc.) so the user could find only the data they wanted without having to wade through to much of what they didn't want.

What really starts to make this tricky is when you start to consider printing. What makes it even more tricky is when you realize that sometimes you need to print vastly different things depending on the need for the data to begin with. Sometimes you only need the locations with a key for household names, other times there's a lot of additional data you need. Often, in my case, I was faced with people who wanted it for directions as well to visit those people. In that case you might be better off dumping the matching households out to something else to produce driving directions. Printing was something I hadn't implemented yet and was still trying to work out how to manage, meet their needs in the process, and stay in compliance with any of the applicable usage rules.

3. Unexpected results/benefits

One of the unexpected benefits of all of this, was that I could generate reports from the DB of how well the lat/long conversion had gone. Based on the results, it was much easier to spot bad address information in our MLS and then set about doing the homework required to get it fixed.


Also, for whatever reason, we had a number of people in our MLS with an address outside of ward boundaries (bad address, kid of to college and the records haven't been moved for some reason, etc.). As a built in part of the search criteria, I skipped over anyone outside of a generous Lat/Long box I drew around our ward boundaries. This also made it easier to determine whether or not someone was actually IN our ward boundaries (given the design of both our boundaries, and the roads around here, that's not as easy as you might think).

I hope some of this is of use. If there are any other questions about what I found, or what I did, feel free to ask or contact me directly. Also, if the Church is looking for some beta testers, I've got a Bishop (and probably a few others) who would like to wear it out for you and provide feedback. If you want it broken, I'll be glad to do my best for testing purposes :)
Senior Member
#30
Awesome feedback! It always helps when someone has done a lot of the pioneering work!

Tom
New Member
#31

Overlay of shape files on mashups?

Everyone,

Great to see all the development in mapping! Last week, unaware of other ward mapping efforts, I (a newbie) used SED to clean up the membership *.csv file from lds.org for batchgeocode.com, then more SED to drop into the middle of mapping code offered at
http://www.martwebstudio.net/strike.up. ... /index.php - real programmers write their own code, I know - the three files (xml, html, and css) can be zipped, emailed to ward leaders and opened on their own PCs, preserving security vital for these records.

As flooding potential grows with warmer Gulf weather ahead, we'd thought of overlaying our maps with shape files of flood zones available for the Houston area. We want to identify groups of members potentially isolated from others by flooding. Any ideas on overlaying shape files on mashups?

Dan
New Member
#32
I've continued to receive a LOT of feedback from folks wanting access to the WardMap I had hosted. I've explained to them I can't, due to the reasons posted earlier in this thread. As such, I created a VBS file that anyone can run on their Windows machine and consume their Ward Member CSV file from LDS.org. It solves the 2 issues posted by Tom and lets folks still have a ward map quickly and easily...without sharing your ward data with anyone.

http://wardmap.theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin
lincles wrote:Just some thoughts -

First of all I think this thread is exactly why this will be a great site. A member had an excellent idea, shared it on the forum, discussed, then the church IT saw the benefit and decided to look into the possibility of adopting the code. I hope everything works out and that the feature can be implemented on the unit sites.


If for whatever reason it doesn't get implemented what about a locally installed version of the tool - something that unit leaders could install on their own machine and then draw from a local list. This way the member lists would not need to be aggregated in a central location. I really think integration into the unit sites would be ideal, but this is just another option in case it doesn't work out.


Let me know if there is any way I can help out. I have web programming experience in several languages and would be happy to help any way I can.

Thanks again for this great forum

-Lincoln
New Member
#33
Good stuff. I ran this on my computer and it works great.

I noticed it must be the membership.cvs from the ward website, not the one from MLS.

Also I had to do some type of Flash security setting acceptance of your script to get it to run (in IE7).

Thank you for posting the server-free version; you were correct, the images didn't do it justice.
:)
#34
kevandcan wrote:I've continued to receive a LOT of feedback from folks wanting access to the WardMap I had hosted. I've explained to them I can't, due to the reasons posted earlier in this thread. As such, I created a VBS file that anyone can run on their Windows machine and consume their Ward Member CSV file from LDS.org. It solves the 2 issues posted by Tom and lets folks still have a ward map quickly and easily...without sharing your ward data with anyone.

http://wardmap.theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin


Kevin!

This is sooooo great! I really like it. I'll be showing it to my Ward this Sunday!!

Thank you for all the hardwork!

BTW - It looks like there are a few members who are not in a Ward on our list. I found them thanks to this!
Thanks,

Michael H. Cox
#35
That's awesome, Kevin.

Thank you.
Jason D. Griffith
Pampa Ward, Amarillo Stake (Texas)
Community Guidelines
New Member
#36
kevandcan wrote:I've continued to receive a LOT of feedback from folks wanting access to the WardMap I had hosted. I've explained to them I can't, due to the reasons posted earlier in this thread. As such, I created a VBS file that anyone can run on their Windows machine and consume their Ward Member CSV file from LDS.org. It solves the 2 issues posted by Tom and lets folks still have a ward map quickly and easily...without sharing your ward data with anyone.

http://wardmap.theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin
Kevin...
I was just curious...but...how do you know that yahoo does not keep the names/addresses/phone #'s that you send to create the markers on their map...???
wouldn't that be a security problem if they saved them...i know it doesn't pass anything about being church members...and you could be passing anyones names...but just wanted to make sure...

i haven't looked into it at all yet...no time...but i have a few other questions...
1. can you color code the markers...? blue for ym, green for yw, etc..
2. do you have any instructions on the api?
3. i assume this is your id? do we need our own id's?
"http://maps.yahooapis.com/v3.0/fl/javas ... arkwayward"
4. can we make a different marker for the church building?
5. did they tell you when they were going to implement something like this for the local wards on lds.org
in other words...am i supposed to wait patiently (talks on Sunday ;)) or start playing with this api ?

Thanks...
Edward
New Member
#37
I could not find any information on this, but I highly doubt they store address requests via their web service...just from a purely technical viewpoint, the amount of data they'd be storing would be enormous and wouldn't mean much to them. I know for a fact they do not store IM sessions (had to investigate this as part of my company recently), so I doubt they store map address queries...

In regards to your questions, yes, you could change the colors of the markers based on the data you upload -- I saw a variation of this done by a friend of mine who used my mashup for his stake. High Priests were blue, Elders were red, single homes were yellow, etc.

Instructions on the Yahoo! API are found here: http://developer.yahoo.com/maps/

Yes, this is my app ID. If folks are going to be using the map much, they ought to get their own appID from Yahoo!.

Yes, you can put custom markers for the church, temple, etc. Check out the API.

No timing given me by the church, but I'm hopeful it's soon, so the amount of emails I get will decrease. :)

Thanks
pulliae wrote:Kevin...
I was just curious...but...how do you know that yahoo does not keep the names/addresses/phone #'s that you send to create the markers on their map...???
wouldn't that be a security problem if they saved them...i know it doesn't pass anything about being church members...and you could be passing anyones names...but just wanted to make sure...

i haven't looked into it at all yet...no time...but i have a few other questions...
1. can you color code the markers...? blue for ym, green for yw, etc..
2. do you have any instructions on the api?
3. i assume this is your id? do we need our own id's?
"http://maps.yahooapis.com/v3.0/fl/javas ... arkwayward"
4. can we make a different marker for the church building?
5. did they tell you when they were going to implement something like this for the local wards on lds.org
in other words...am i supposed to wait patiently (talks on Sunday ;)) or start playing with this api ?

Thanks...
Edward
Member
#38
This would be a great tool. We've exported ward lists and imported them into mapping software running on the Bishop's laptop. It never quite worked right. Keeping things in synch was difficult and we still needed to touch every contact to make it usable. We were trying to use it for home teaching routes and emergency preparedness and would still like to have some sort of mapping tool that would let us visually see the ward members and map routes.
New Member
#39

gis and ward maps.

is it ok to use the data, as long as the data is geocoded with localy loaded datasets, and localy loladt loaded gis tools.
Dave L.
Phoenix, Arizona
Specialties:
GIS/viedo Production/3d-modeling/Multimedia
Member
#40

K.I.S.S....my motto!

I use a Cingular 2125 PDA data enabled phone, so I know this solution is technology specific but this is what I did. I downloaded the membership directory into my contacts and then downloaded the Google MAPS Pocket PC Beta. Now when I want to find someone I open Google Maps and it has this cool little feature that says lookup contact. I pick who I want to find and it pulls them up on my phone through google maps. It includes all the function for directions etc.

For our ward, I bought a copy of MapPoint and installed it on the MLS machine and then imported all the members into it with some of the special fields mapped too. There is a feature in that that allows you to "draw" shapes on the map and then right click on the shaps and export all the pushpins to excel. I drew grids and exported them out as contact lists.

Voila...instant emergency list. I also allows us to print step by step directions to members houses.

I know that these solutions aren't as fun as a build your own but they serve the purpose and don't require a lot of training to get others to use it. Now our ward clerks can use MapPoint locally to see if someone is in our boundaries and can get through it.

Here is the Google download:
http://www.google.com/gmm/index.html?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-google&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=maps%20mobile
Mr. M
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit me virtually anytime. ;)

http://www.mariohipol.com
Senior Member
#41
phxdwl wrote:is it ok to use the data, as long as the data is geocoded with localy loaded datasets, and localy loladt loaded gis tools.
Yes, that should be fine.

Tom
New Member
#42
Has anyone been able to get this program to work on Windows Vista? I have tried to comment out the spots that Kevin says to in non xp computers, but i still get error reports. I have very little programming experience so any help would be great. Thanks
New Member
#43

Geocoding is Complex for Rural Wards

This has been a great discussion on a topic that I personally feel could greatly benefit church members and leadership. It was so interesting I think that I read every comment in the thread. Thank you Kevin for initiating this thread. Over a decade ago, Worrall said that 80% of a data used in operational decisions was geographic or spatially referenced (Worral, L. 1991. Spatial analysis and spatial policy using geographic information systems. London: Belhaven Press). I feel this is greatly consistent with decision making across our church.

I live in a ward in the rural part of VA that is almost the size of the state of Rhode Island, and have felt that mapping would provide great value to organize ward missionary work through helping the missionaries with rides, referrals, and member visits. I am fortunate to have access to ESRI ArcGIS and sophisticated geocoding packages provided by ESRI and other geography giants through my appointment at the University of Virginia. (I believe ESRI ArcGIS can provide web services across a variety of enterprise architectures, although I imagine that the software is expensive .) However, I was surprised by the low rate success in my geocoding effort. I even tried some other web mapping service (similar to Kevin), such as Yahoo, Microsoft, and Google with even less success. The problem was that many of the addresses in the ward roster are ... "Box 1 Rural Route 3" or "555 Deer Farm Road"... Rural routes and farm roads do not exist in large-scale street files that are maintained for web mapping. (however, I must note that Google Earth was able to find quite a few - and must use a different map set or geocoding algorithm than their online mapping service.)

In the end I used an open source GIS called MapWindow GIS, created by Idaho National Labs, because I was able to obtain an open source script that runs on mapwindow to convert the point file in the ESRI shapefile format to a .KML -- a markup language used by Google Earth. I was able to mark on the map the locations of members to obtain latitude and longitude coordinates. There you can also create polygon files to demark the boundaries of the ward and store them in an xml format. These polygon files can be shared with specific members for editing, but there are problems maintaining versions.

However, I was able to do some interesting things for our ward missionaries. For example, I overlayed the membership map on top of a population density raster and calculated population - to - membership density ratios. This highlights the areas that are high in population, but low in membership for potential tracking. Other maps can be used when seeking certain talent for the ward (which is needed in rural wards), or to see if we are not properly taking care of new members that are located in far reaching locations. Such information with faith and the Spirit can powerfully inform decisions.

Geography is an important tool in making these decisions. I would recommend that the church investigate both commercial and open source options, while investigating what features to implement and how to do it to best meet the objectives of the church. However, I would recommend that if possible and feasible that the church team host geocoding web services internally - and NOT rely on the APIs or street maps of any particular existing web service.
Member
#44

This is good work and a step in the right direction

Three cheers to Idaho National Labs for creating Mapwindows GIS that is a open sourced script. Three cheers also goes to Kgcrowther for posting this information on this wounderful tech forum. Let not reinvent the wheel lets profect and improve it.

I have also had good success with military and governmental agencies. They are not interested in just lining their pockets. They are after things that work and are reliable. I have also noticed that products from these agencies are easy to use and not cumbersome meaning the average joe can operate it. By the way I am not endorsing or promoting any products just making an observation from my past expirences.

I agree with Kgcrowther in that web services like yahoo, microsoft, google, and yes even map quest are not accurate. Maybe they are good for urban mapping
but those are usually five or more years out of date. Even the USGS (US Geological Survey) maps are 5 years old or more. This makes new developments not visible until new satalite pictures are taken. Plus these providers usually focus on large population centers not on the rural areas.

This is exciting now the members living in rural america and in rural countries can be mapped with ease.

Thank you for sharing an open sourced GIS program. I would hope and do not think this would violate the rules of sharing informaion because this is open source script.

Thank you.
Senior Member
#45
Last edited by Mr. Techno : Today at 09:04 PM. Reason: Spelling error. A spell checker would be a good tool to add to this site.
There is spell check capability on these forums. In fact it is in the upper right corner when you are drafting your post. However, it requires a free download called ieSpell, which is an IE plugin. The nice thing is that you can use the spell checker on more than just this site, but it integrates nicely with these forums.
Community Moderators
#46

For USA geo info, how about the USPS?

Jumping into the middle of this thread... (Yes, I know that's dangerous.)

Just a wild idea, but given the accuracy problems mentioned in relation to commercial mapping sites, I wonder whether the USPS might have something available that could be helpful. They have to have much lower latency than five years in terms of handling addresses in new housing developments and such, and they have to be reasonably accurate. There's got to be something there, because the regular mapping web sites return my ZIP+4 extension when I enter my home address.
Senior Member
#47
kgcrowther wrote: However, I was able to do some interesting things for our ward missionaries. For example, I overlayed the membership map on top of a population density raster and calculated population - to - membership density ratios. This highlights the areas that are high in population, but low in membership for potential tracking. Other maps can be used when seeking certain talent for the ward (which is needed in rural wards), or to see if we are not properly taking care of new members that are located in far reaching locations. Such information with faith and the Spirit can powerfully inform decisions.
The [thread=241]ward mission program[/thread] I've been working on could benefit from this type of technology. Currently I don't keep a lot of information about members in the program as the program tracks information about families and individuals that are being taught but as this program expands, I could see a technology like this being added to help plan splits and dinner appointments for missionaries. It could even help the missionaries decide the most efficient way to use the miles on their cars by allowing the ward mission leader to help them plan a route that they will work during the week.

Tom
New Member
#48
Maps made for Home Teaching, and I'm sure even Visiting Teaching would help big time. Maps would be great to have when deciding companion ships and who they will visit. For example, having a companion that lives with in a mile of you and having the families you visit close by, would probably get more families visited than if they had families that lived 10 miles away, especially if they got inactives to visit, and pay a high price for gas.

Using Google Maps, for the Elders Quorum, I made a Home Teachers map, and then an Assigned, and Not Assigned map for each town. But not having any program to help, and being on a Macintosh, I had to use Google maps, and make a screen shot of the maps, and then put the initials in one person at a time.

Image
.
Member
#49
kgcrowther wrote:I live in a ward in the rural part of VA that is almost the size of the state of Rhode Island, and have felt that mapping would provide great value to organize ward missionary work through helping the missionaries with rides, referrals, and member visits. I am fortunate to have access to ESRI ArcGIS and sophisticated geocoding packages provided by ESRI and other geography giants through my appointment at the University of Virginia. (I believe ESRI ArcGIS can provide web services across a variety of enterprise architectures, although I imagine that the software is expensive .) However, I was surprised by the low rate success in my geocoding effort. I even tried some other web mapping service (similar to Kevin), such as Yahoo, Microsoft, and Google with even less success. The problem was that many of the addresses in the ward roster are ... "Box 1 Rural Route 3" or "555 Deer Farm Road"... Rural routes and farm roads do not exist in large-scale street files that are maintained for web mapping. (however, I must note that Google Earth was able to find quite a few - and must use a different map set or geocoding algorithm than their online mapping service.)

Some parts of my stake have recently phased out rural route and box, giving each house a new address. Sometimes a county government has also gone over an already-addressed road, giving it new house numbers, or even giving new names to shared driveways. The ward clerks are doing much better with keeping addresses current on the records than when I was called as an assistant stake clerk a little over five years ago. But I have yet to find any centerline source data that keeps up with the counties' changes. (I have ArcView 3.2a at home and ArcGIS 9.2 at work.)

Part of the problem there is that ESRI no longer puts the latest Census TIGER maps (in shapefile form) on its site. They do bundle (starting with 9.2) map data from TeleAtlas with ArcGIS. So for now I'm using that to match most of the stake (slightly larger than Connecticut, covering almost all of Delaware, half the landmass of Maryland, and one school district in Pennsylvania.) I match three units a week that way, and then once in a while try to manually match addresses that fell through the cracks, against YahooMaps (which I've found is most reliable of the online services.)

[snip]
However, I was able to do some interesting things for our ward missionaries. For example, I overlayed the membership map on top of a population density raster and calculated population - to - membership density ratios. This highlights the areas that are high in population, but low in membership for potential tracking. Other maps can be used when seeking certain talent for the ward (which is needed in rural wards), or to see if we are not properly taking care of new members that are located in far reaching locations. Such information with faith and the Spirit can powerfully inform decisions.

Indeed it can. I've been playing around with this as long as I've had the software in easy reach, first as a ward membership clerk (in three different wards) and now as an assistant stake clerk. Right now I'm basing stake geocodes on a three-character code representing county, school district, ward with the first two characters, and then where needed a third character for neighborhood (based mainly on census tracts and highways.) Right now all I'm doing with that is tracking where people are within each county or school district, and looking at a couple of boundary scenarios.

In the past, I've based things more on census tracts and tried to see where our strengths are compared to population. But in many cases ward boundaries don't respect census tracts, and in Delaware neither do school districts. (At least they do in Maryland and Pennsylvania.) So for me, that's on the shelf for right now, but there would be great potential for someone at a higher level to maintain that sort of data.
Geography is an important tool in making these decisions. I would recommend that the church investigate both commercial and open source options, while investigating what features to implement and how to do it to best meet the objectives of the church. However, I would recommend that if possible and feasible that the church team host geocoding web services internally - and NOT rely on the APIs or street maps of any particular existing web service.

Like I said before, I've had to play around with data sources to find something I can use easily. It's only because of what I have access to right now at work that things are going so efficiently that I can re-geocode all thirteen units in my stake each month. Personally, I feel that (and not just in the United States or other countries with similar levels of street data) the Church should generate latitude and longitude (or some equivalent) for each and every address. (Each ward and branch is supposed to have a physical address for each family as it is.)

Once automated, it wouldn't be that difficult to implement or maintain. (Granted, country-by-country that wouldn't happen uniformly.) If an address doesn't match, it would come up as an error in Membership Validation. (It could be the same with an address on the wrong side of a boundary line, though I've found when that comes up with what I'm doing, I may either the address miscoded, or the boundary wrong in my GIS.) And from there, missions, stakes and wards could periodically receive data that would be helpful to them.
New Member
#50

"geocoding" using Google Earth

JTaber wrote:Part of the problem there is that ESRI no longer puts the latest Census TIGER maps (in shapefile form) on its site. They do bundle (starting with 9.2) map data from TeleAtlas with ArcGIS. So for now I'm using that to match most of the stake (slightly larger than Connecticut, covering almost all of Delaware, half the landmass of Maryland, and one school district in Pennsylvania.) I match three units a week that way, and then once in a while try to manually match addresses that fell through the cracks, against YahooMaps (which I've found is most reliable of the online services.)
I have found that home teachers, visiting teachers, and full time missionaries can locate addresses on a map. There is a information bar at the bottom of Google Earth that report lat./long. coordinates. I have found that I can ask members to find the address on a Google Earth and just tell me what the lat./long. reading is. This has been an effective way to "geocode" the addresses that none of the geocoding services (YahooMaps and ESRI included) are able to properly code.

I'm trying to think of a system that would be easy to distribute this sort of "geocoding" task through the visiting and home teachers...

JTaber wrote:In the past, I've based things more on census tracts and tried to see where our strengths are compared to population. But in many cases ward boundaries don't respect census tracts, and in Delaware neither do school districts. (At least they do in Maryland and Pennsylvania.) So for me, that's on the shelf for right now, but there would be great potential for someone at a higher level to maintain that sort of data.
I think population data is available on the census block level.
JTaber wrote:Like I said before, I've had to play around with data sources to find something I can use easily. It's only because of what I have access to right now at work that things are going so efficiently that I can re-geocode all thirteen units in my stake each month. Personally, I feel that (and not just in the United States or other countries with similar levels of street data) the Church should generate latitude and longitude (or some equivalent) for each and every address. (Each ward and branch is supposed to have a physical address for each family as it is.)
I think eventually lat./long. should just be entered into MLS as another field in the database. This would be relatively simple and avoid the need to geocode over and over again.
JTaber wrote: Once automated, it wouldn't be that difficult to implement or maintain.
I agree.
Member
#51
kgcrowther wrote:I think population data is available on the census block level.

It certainly is at blockgroup, but I haven't looked very hard. For what I'm doing right now, and am capable of doing, population comparison is going to have to wait. (My calling has included stake membership clerk for almost three years now.) I don't think it would be that difficult for someone, somewhere to be able to generate membership statistics by blockgroup or census tract and compare them to Census statistics. I do think that would be a bit of a burden at the stake level, even if there's a clerk who knows the software.
I think eventually lat./long. should just be entered into MLS as another field in the database. This would be relatively simple and avoid the need to geocode over and over again.

Absolutely. What I meant was that Salt Lake could make a pass at geocoding everyone once, and then again when someone moves. Otherwise it would stay stored on the membership record, and wards (with the right information) could fill in the gaps. When they do change an address, MLS could ask, "Is the position changing?" and the clerk could say no if it's just a matter of fixing a ZIP Code or something like that. Otherwise, MLS would at least attempt to fill in new coordinates. Each ward could be issued a paper map showing what neighborhoods or towns are getting what codes, so they'd know how to answer that if it came up.
Member
#52
kevandcan wrote:I've continued to receive a LOT of feedback from folks wanting access to the WardMap I had hosted. I've explained to them I can't, due to the reasons posted earlier in this thread. As such, I created a VBS file that anyone can run on their Windows machine and consume their Ward Member CSV file from LDS.org. It solves the 2 issues posted by Tom and lets folks still have a ward map quickly and easily...without sharing your ward data with anyone.

http://wardmap.theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin


This tool is great on the ward level, so I was trying it out to see if it would map out our whole stake. I copied and pasted all of the Stake membership data into one file and ran the script. The program timed out at about 38% (going through the addresses and placing them on the map). After 3 tries of the same result, I assumed that there must be a limit to the number of entries to a map.

Is there a limit to the number of entries the script (or Yahoo! Maps) can take? Or is there a work around to map out a whole stake's data?
New Member
#53
Yes, the Yahoo! API only allows for 200-300 calls per session I believe...
Community Moderators
#54
Have you ported this to Google Earth? I think it might allow more.
- David
Member
#55

other uses for WardMap.vbs?

The ward maps functionality would also be nice on the Meetinghouse Locator function--to be able to see where the nearest ward is to a location you are at. I was playing around and tried to enter in the chapels around the Dallas area and put them in the "membership.csv" file, and then upload it into the script Kevin created.

It did not parse the information as I had hoped, and did not map the addresses. I have attached the file if you would like to try it.

(Attached txt file that needs to be saved as csv)

I was seeing if there were a way to create maps of chapels in a certain area you are traveling to, files of missionary contacts, families you home teach, etc. that could be customized and mapped using the script--but apparently I am not doing the right data entry in the csv to do that.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Could this feature be integrated with the Meetinghouse Locator and allow for the user to also add the location they are at (if they are traveling or moving to a new city) to see which ward is closest, and what times it meets? (Maybe this is a discussion for the LDS.org Project Forum)...
📎 tempUpload.txt (1.22 KiB)
#56
Very nice suggestions there, opee. I think adding in the Meetinghouses would be a great idea.
Jason D. Griffith
Pampa Ward, Amarillo Stake (Texas)
Community Guidelines
Community Administrator
#57
opee wrote:The ward maps functionality would also be nice on the Meetinghouse Locator function--to be able to see where the nearest ward is to a location you are at.
Keep in mind that the the closest meetinghouse may not be the ward whose boundaries you live in. What you propose is fine for travelers, but could create problems for new move-ins.

What would be nice is to display ward boundaries and where they meet. But that may be beyond what mapping services like Yahoo Maps or Google Earth can currently do.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#58
What is the latest status on getting this (or something like it) available in LUWS?
_________________________________________________
John Blackham, N7TEK
HOME: 384 North 75 East, North Salt Lake, UT, USA 84054-2320
PHONE: (H) 801-295-3036 E-MAIL: n7tek1@gmail.com
Senior Member
#59
On_Target_Advocate wrote:What is the latest status on getting this (or something like it) available in LUWS?
It is still a work in progress. No new news.

Tom
Community Moderators
#60
tomw wrote:It is still a work in progress. No new news.

Tom

I do have to stand in awe of the church's programmers though, I have just gone through a bunch of threads and if they are actively monitoring these forums they are probably getting more great ideas than even a very large business could handle all at once.

Cannot wait to see what will happen in the coming year.
- David
Member
#61

Wish Kevin's VBS app would work for me.

kevandcan wrote:I've continued to receive a LOT of feedback from folks wanting access to the WardMap I had hosted. I've explained to them I can't, due to the reasons posted earlier in this thread. As such, I created a VBS file that anyone can run on their Windows machine and consume their Ward Member CSV file from LDS.org. It solves the 2 issues posted by Tom and lets folks still have a ward map quickly and easily...without sharing your ward data with anyone.

http://wardmap.theballfamily.org

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin, et al, this sounds like a wonderful program, but when I run it I get a error message. I will try to attach a jpg file of the error message - not sure that it will work. Any help would be great!
New Member
#62
srweight wrote:Kevin, et al, this sounds like a wonderful program, but when I run it I get a error message. I will try to attach a jpg file of the error message - not sure that it will work. Any help would be great!

The error is coming from the following line of code:
Set objFSO = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")

Be sure you are running this on Windows XP or later. If not, you may need to install Windows Scripting Host -- available for free on the Microsoft site.
New Member
#63

Works in vista

bkh8 wrote:Has anyone been able to get this program to work on Windows Vista? I have tried to comment out the spots that Kevin says to in non xp computers, but i still get error reports. I have very little programming experience so any help would be great. Thanks
I was able to get it to run in Vista by commenting out the lines requested, then running it from a command prompt that is set to "run as administrator". You still get some security warnings from IE, but it works. You need to be in the directory with the script and type "wscript WardMap.vbs".
#64

What's Going On With It Now?

So is there a working version of this utility yet that is authorized for use? :confused:
Terry Sackett
2nd Counselor, Bishopric
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake
Senior Member
#65
SR Ward Clerk wrote:So is there a working version of this utility yet that is authorized for use? :confused:
Yes, there has been for some time. But you must only run the "local" version of the script. It is ok to export data from MLS and run it through a utility you trust locally on your own machine or a ward computer. The problem was when this was being hosted on a web server that was not a church-hosted server.
#66
I have to admit that I don't know how to install the feature. I downloaded both files as instructed, but I don't know what to do to make it function.
Terry Sackett
2nd Counselor, Bishopric
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake
Senior Member
#67
SR Ward Clerk wrote:I have to admit that I don't know how to install the feature. I downloaded both files as instructed, but I don't know what to do to make it function.
So you have the VBScript file and your MLS membership export CSV file?

All you should have to do if you're running on XP is double-click the VBS file. There isn't any installation of a program. Are you getting an kind of error? Are your running an OS other than XP?

When I went to his site, there were instructions on what to do if you are not on XP or if you have Adobe Flash errors.
New Member
#68

Ward map not populating

Wow has Kevin ever hit a need nerve !!

I downloaded the files as instructed, am running XP, have my ward directory etc. But when the app starts I get what looks like the correct application but no map etc. I simply have a nice pale blue screen with his title page at the top and the instruction bar on the left, but no map in the right (main panel).

Is there an underlying app that may have been stripped off my corporate machine?
Member
#69
mtolman wrote:Wow has Kevin ever hit a need nerve !!

I downloaded the files as instructed, am running XP, have my ward directory etc. But when the app starts I get what looks like the correct application but no map etc. I simply have a nice pale blue screen with his title page at the top and the instruction bar on the left, but no map in the right (main panel).

Is there an underlying app that may have been stripped off my corporate machine?

When I first tried to get it to run, I had the same error, and I seem to remember that the permissions were not set correctly in the Adobe software. You also have to make sure that you allow the ActiveX plugin to run. Hope this helps.
New Member
#70

Troubleshooting

opee wrote:When I first tried to get it to run, I had the same error, and I seem to remember that the permissions were not set correctly in the Adobe software. You also have to make sure that you allow the ActiveX plugin to run. Hope this helps.

First off, it's wonderful to see the 100s of folks who download this applicationand report back that it is useful. It's immensley gratifying to have a small hand in helping people with the work of the Kingdom. I can't wait to see it implemented on the LUWS...:rolleyes:

Second, I continue to get folks emailing me on how to make this app work. I encourage users to 1) read the instructions on my website about this (http://wardmap.theballfamily.org/map.asp) and 2) ensure they DON'T open/save the csv file in Excel (it changes the common delimiter).
New Member
#71
Hi all,

Like most LDS church members I live outside the USA.

This script seems to require data exported from the (still North America only) Stake and Ward websites.

More widely available to church members is the church's MLS software, from which I can export data.

I'd like to build a converter from MLS format to "Stake and Ward websites" format so more people can use this script.

Can someone please post the format of that file?

(Don't forget, don't post any private data!)

I'm guessing as long as I get the data in the right format it will work - kevandcan? Or is the geocoding using some American-only service?
Community Moderators
#72
The geocoder uses the world avaliable mapping service like google or yahoo (I forget which one he uses). So as long as those are avaliable to your area then I am sure it will work fine. As for the format they changeds it around from when I used it from MIS.
- David
New Member
#73

But is this really an approved method?

mkmurray wrote:Yes, there has been for some time. But you must only run the "local" version of the script. It is ok to export data from MLS and run it through a utility you trust locally on your own machine or a ward computer. The problem was when this was being hosted on a web server that was not a church-hosted server.
As I understand the pollicy, we are not allowed to send our membership data to any outside company. This would include Google, Yahoo, etc.

It looks to me like the standalone script still calls upon Yahoo maps to get the mapping data. It sends all of the membership data to them in order to generate the map. Isn't this exactly what the policy was supposed to prevent? How is this significantly different than sending the data to Kevin's server and then having him send it to Yahoo? The only difference is that we are only sending it to one outside service instead of two. One is still one too many.

Even if they aren't using or even storing it now (and I don't know whether or not they are), it doesn't mean that Yahoo (or whoever) won't be keeping all our data in order to create online phone directories or for any other reason in the future.

IMHO, if we want to do any mapping of our ward members (and I'm in the process of doing just that right now) we need to have complete privacy of our membership data. That means having mapping software installed on the PC and generating all our maps locally, without going to ANY online services.

Am I wrong? Is it acceptable to send all of our membership data to Yahoo so they can generate maps for us?

Is anyone out there using any commercial mapping software to generate ward membership maps using only the local PC? That's how Google Earth works, right? Or do they also require data to be send up to the big Google server farm?

Thanks,

Marty
Senior Member
#74
mwallred wrote:It looks to me like the standalone script still calls upon Yahoo maps to get the mapping data. It sends all of the membership data to them in order to generate the map.
Not exactly; read the entirety of this thread and you will see a discussion about this issue. The conclusion was that the addresses or coordinates are being sent to Yahoo, but not any other member information. An address really means nothing if there is no member name (or similar information) associated with it. There is nothing on Yahoo's side to identifiy it as member information, it's just a bunch of addresses to them. Also if the information was sniffed on it's way to Yahoo, there's still nothing to signify it is member addresses. The other conclusion was that it is likely Yahoo doesn't store the locations on their servers anyway. If somebody does find a statement to the contrary, please post it here for all to discuss.
mwallred wrote:Is anyone out there using any commercial mapping software to generate ward membership maps using only the local PC? That's how Google Earth works, right? Or do they also require data to be send up to the big Google server farm?
Either in this thread or another thread on this forum, somebody talked about using Google Earth in this way. I think it's a great idea, I just don't remember if anyone actually made something or not. I don't think Google sends the data up, I think it is done locally. Again, someone correct me if you find the opposite out there.
New Member
#75

Local mapping data vs online data

mkmurray wrote:Not exactly; read the entirety of this thread and you will see a discussion about this issue. The conclusion was that the addresses or coordinates are being sent to Yahoo, but not any other member information. An address really means nothing if there is no member name (or similar information) associated with it. There is nothing on Yahoo's side to identifiy it as member information, it's just a bunch of addresses to them. Also if the information was sniffed on it's way to Yahoo, there's still nothing to signify it is member addresses. The other conclusion was that it is likely Yahoo doesn't store the locations on their servers anyway. If somebody does find a statement to the contrary, please post it here for all to discuss.
Actually, I did read the entire thread, including the policy statement that was issued. I'm no script expert so I didn't attempt to analyze the whole thing to see what it was sending. I just assumed that in order for Yahoo to put the identifying information (e.g. member name) on the pin flag or into any popup windows on the map that it would need to have that data sent to it. It didn't seem real logical to think that the client side would be handling that part of it.

Also, the fact that it isn't likely that Yahoo doesn't store the data is irrelevant. IIRC, the policy stated that we couldn't send member data to another server, or maybe just ones that could be storing it. Do we need to check Yahoo's policy page every time before we use their mapping service this way? Storage keeps getting cheaper and the desire for data higher.

Does anybody remember when Google was inadvertently releasing all kinds of private data due to a bug on their system? Do we want that to happen to us? I'd rather err on the side of caution.
mkmurray wrote: Either in this thread or another thread on this forum, somebody talked about using Google Earth in this way. I think it's a great idea, I just don't remember if anyone actually made something or not. I don't think Google sends the data up, I think it is done locally. Again, someone correct me if you find the opposite out there.
That's what I thought about Google Earth- you don't even need an internet connection once you download all the map data for your area, so you can put pins all over the map without any data getting back to Google. Software like Streets and Trips and maybe even some of the Nav system packages could do it as well while keeping all the data local.
Senior Member
#76
mwallred wrote:Actually, I did read the entire thread, including the policy statement that was issued. I'm no script expert so I didn't attempt to analyze the whole thing to see what it was sending. I just assumed that in order for Yahoo to put the identifying information (e.g. member name) on the pin flag or into any popup windows on the map that it would need to have that data sent to it. It didn't seem real logical to think that the client side would be handling that part of it.

Also, the fact that it isn't likely that Yahoo doesn't store the data is irrelevant. IIRC, the policy stated that we couldn't send member data to another server, or maybe just ones that could be storing it. Do we need to check Yahoo's policy page every time before we use their mapping service this way? Storage keeps getting cheaper and the desire for data higher.

Does anybody remember when Google was inadvertently releasing all kinds of private data due to a bug on their system? Do we want that to happen to us? I'd rather err on the side of caution.
Point well taken.

Tom, because of the silence from Church employees when the discussion was had, the community decided this VB script solution was secure enough to align with the posted policy. Should the security of this solution be revisited, with Church input this time?
Senior Member
#77
mkmurray wrote:Point well taken.

Tom, because of the silence from Church employees when the discussion was had, the community decided this VB script solution was secure enough to align with the posted policy. Should the security of this solution be revisited, with Church input this time?
Sometimes silence speaks volumes :D

To my knowledge the Church does not have an official policy about this particular script. However confidential information should remain such.

[Tom speaking personally] I use mapping software all of the time. I'm in a stake calling and I may need to drop something off to a member in another ward. I use google maps or yahoo to find where a person lives. Does that violate Church policy? I don't think so. However sometimes we are left to our own inspiration and revelation.

Tom
#78
mkmurray wrote:So you have the VBScript file and your MLS membership export CSV file?

All you should have to do if you're running on XP is double-click the VBS file. There isn't any installation of a program. Are you getting an kind of error? Are your running an OS other than XP?

When I went to his site, there were instructions on what to do if you are not on XP or if you have Adobe Flash errors.

I neglected to say "Thanks" for your answer to my post, so thanks! :D Oh, and yes, I'm running XP Pro, SP2.

I did not know until then that .vbs files are executable files, so I had not thought to double-click on the file. I guess I am the only computer user that did not know that because there wasn't any instruction to double-click that file, unless I completely missed it.

Anyway, that is what made it work, and it's a cool application. Now my question is, Is there a way to zoom in on the map or, better yet, make the map larger so it is easier to see where there are names blocking other names?
Terry Sackett
2nd Counselor, Bishopric
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake
Senior Member
#79
SR Ward Clerk wrote:Now my question is, Is there a way to zoom in on the map or, better yet, make the map larger so it is easier to see where there are names blocking other names?
Right-click on the vbs file and choose "Open With". You'll want to open it with an editor (Notepad is easy), but only this time, so if you get the dialog box that says "Always use this program to open this type of file", don't select the checkbox (otherwise, I don't think you will be able to double-click it anymore).

If you are using Notepad, turn on the Status Bar so you can see the line number of where your cursor is (under View on the menu). Go down to lines 339-342 and you will find this javascript code that interfaces with Yahoo:

Code:

tsHTM.WriteLine "<script type=""text/javascript"">"
tsHTM.WriteLine " // Create and display Map object at the address and with zoom level 3 "
tsHTM.WriteLine " // Include your application ID."
tsHTM.WriteLine " var map = new Map(""mapContainer"", ""parkwayward"", """ & pMapCenterAddress & """, 3); "

There is a comment there that says it is set at zoom level 3. Modify the 3 on the last line to whatever you want. I imagine you'll want to do 2 or 1 in order to zoom in. Save the file and run it.

Here is a reference to the Yahoo Map API regarding the function call you are modifying: http://developer.yahoo.com/maps/flash/V ... e.html#Map

According to the documentation, the fourth parameter is the zoom level and it can be an integer value from 1 to 17.

I haven't tried this myself, but I made a little map application using Google Maps API a few years ago, so I can somewhat tell what's going on. If it doesn't work, it will be easy to undo the change. :)
#80
Mowen wrote:Hi all,

Like most LDS church members I live outside the USA.

This script seems to require data exported from the (still North America only) Stake and Ward websites.

More widely available to church members is the church's MLS software, from which I can export data.

I'd like to build a converter from MLS format to "Stake and Ward websites" format so more people can use this script.

Can someone please post the format of that file?

(Don't forget, don't post any private data!)

I'm guessing as long as I get the data in the right format it will work - kevandcan? Or is the geocoding using some American-only service?
Mowen, take a look at this thread. I built an alternative to this map-maker - uses google instead of yahoo (works better outside america) and has settings for both MLS and LUWS membership downloads. It also has filtering and some other options. The resulting file can be viewed in Google Earth.

http://tech.lds.org/forum/showpost.php? ... stcount=10
New Member
#81
Brilliant, thanks Redzarf, I'll take a look...
New Member
#82
redzarf wrote:Mowen, take a look at this thread. I built an alternative to this map-maker - uses google instead of yahoo (works better outside america) and has settings for both MLS and LUWS membership downloads. It also has filtering and some other options. The resulting file can be viewed in Google Earth.

I downloaded an tried "MLS to KML," selected MLS defaults, and pasted in my CVS text, but when I pressed the "Generate kml data" button it came back with a window that said "Permission UniversalBrowserRead denied."

I was using MS IE 7 as my browser. I tried adjusting my security level down without, but without success. Looking at the code I see the call to "netscape.security.privilegeManager.enablePrivilege("UniversalBrowserRead"). Does that mean I need a non-IE browser to make this work or am I just doing something else wrong?
#83
sjpynes wrote:I was using MS IE 7 as my browser. I tried adjusting my security level down without, but without success. Looking at the code I see the call to "netscape.security.privilegeManager.enablePrivilege("UniversalBrowserRead"). Does that mean I need a non-IE browser to make this work or am I just doing something else wrong?

I had to play with the program a bit to make it work, and I did not receive the message that you received, but I did finally get it to work and I am also am using IE 7, so I don't think that is your issue. Someone with more knowledge of the program may be able to give you more specific help on what to look for, but it's probably not your browser.
Terry Sackett
2nd Counselor, Bishopric
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake
Community Moderators
#84
Yeah, I couldn't get past the same error message. Behind the popped-up error message, it showed it was "Processing Row 1 of 443", followed by the first name on the list in parenthesis. Tried a few things, but didn't pursue it extensively. If anyone has a working solution, I would greatly appreciate it.

BTW, I tried it on a machine running fully patched versions of Vista Ultimate and IE7. Haven't tried XP and/or a different browser yet.
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#85
Mikerowaved wrote:Yeah, I couldn't get past the same error message. Behind the popped-up error message, it showed it was "Processing Row 1 of 443", followed by the first name on the list in parenthesis. Tried a few things, but didn't pursue it extensively. If anyone has a working solution, I would greatly appreciate it.

That was an error I received, and I worked past it, but it has now been a couple of months and I can't remember how I resolved it, but I'll try to get back to it in the next couple of days.

I haven't gone back to the program because the addresses in my ward are too close together on the map and I can't figure out if there is a way to zoom in so that all of them can be read. I'm probably going to purchase a copy of a program that someone at work showed me for Palm PDAs that does the same thing, except you can zoom in and out on the map.
Terry Sackett
2nd Counselor, Bishopric
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake
Senior Member
#86
SR Ward Clerk wrote:That was an error I received, and I worked past it, but it has now been a couple of months and I can't remember how I resolved it, but I'll try to get back to it in the next couple of days.

I haven't gone back to the program because the addresses in my ward are too close together on the map and I can't figure out if there is a way to zoom in so that all of them can be read. I'm probably going to purchase a copy of a program that someone at work showed me for Palm PDAs that does the same thing, except you can zoom in and out on the map.
You must not have seen my post where I answered your question. [post=7610]Here is a link to it[/post], even though it is just a few posts away.
Community Moderators
#87
mkmurray wrote:You must not have seen my post where I answered your question. [post=7610]Here is a link to it[/post], even though it is just a few posts away.
If I'm not confused, SR Ward Clerk and I were discussing the errors we received using the HTML/Javascript solution that calls Google Maps and your zoom mod is for the Yahoo Maps script.

I've haven't been able to get the Google script to run error-free yet, so I can't comment on its zoom level (or lack thereof), but Yahoo maps gives me adequate zoom/pan capabilities after the map displays. However, because of the density of our Ward, I still have a problem with some flags being completely obscured, even at the highest zoom level. That's one reason I wanted to take a peek at what the Google solution looked like.

A few years ago I used MS Streets & Trips to do a similar kind of thing. I can't remember every step, but essentially I imported the WardList.csv file into Excel, stripped out the unneeded columns and exported it as a push-pin list that S&T could import. The nice thing about that was you could display as much or little of the flag data as you wanted, or none at all, leaving just the bare pins visible. When a pin was clicked on, the data would appear. Of course, many different colors and pin styles could be used as well, to break up the Ward into different geographic regions, identify priesthood holders or perhaps those with disabilities, HT/VT routes, whatever. You could even draw lines and put your own text on the map as well.

Unfortunately (IMO) there was too much manual work involved to keep up with a dynamic Ward, so after my release and careful passing of it to someone else, (as was half expected) the project died. I haven't tried it with later versions of S&T (I now own 2007), so maybe I'll try it again and see if it has any improved hooks I can use for streamlining the process. (Unless someone else has already given this a serious look.)
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#88

MLS->KML fixed for IE7

sjpynes wrote:I downloaded an tried "MLS to KML," selected MLS defaults, and pasted in my CVS text, but when I pressed the "Generate kml data" button it came back with a window that said "Permission UniversalBrowserRead denied."

I was using MS IE 7 as my browser. I tried adjusting my security level down without, but without success. Looking at the code I see the call to "netscape.security.privilegeManager.enablePrivilege("UniversalBrowserRead"). Does that mean I need a non-IE browser to make this work or am I just doing something else wrong?
Wow, I hadn't heard about anyone using the MLS->KML for months, then suddenly everyone that has comes out of the woodwork!

I must confess I never got around to testing in IE7 after the most recent changes :o and it turns out there was a pair of brackets missing which IE6 and Firefox handled without problem, but IE7 gave up on. Thats fixed in the latest version attached, and should solve the problem Mikerowaved and SRWardClerk had.

However it won't solve the UniversalBrowserRead issue. This is a security block from IE and Firefox which is a good idea because it stops scripts you don't know are running from doing 'bad things', but isn't a problem for scripts that you do know are running - as in this case.

For me, I got the "Allow scripts and ActiveX objects" popup at the top of the page, and once I choose allow running of this content I also got an extra warning each time I ran it, but otherwise everything was fine. I never got a UniversalBrowserRead message, and from what I've read this is a term thats only linked to Firefox, not IE7 - but I don't know much about it, and could be wrong.

If you get any further errors please let me know (PM might be faster.) If I'd heard from the first of you to get this error, I could have fixed it before other people got it. :D

SRWardClerk - when you say the addresses are too close for zooming - are you using Google maps or Google Earth? Both have zoom controls... or is your ward really dense (like apartment buildings at BYU or something.) If its apartments, it'd be worth playing around with them in google maps to see if it comes up with slightly different locations (even if the closest zoom doesn't show it, if they're different lat/long then you'd be able to zoom in closer in Google Earth), and if so it could just be a matter of formatting the addresses for the converter.
📎 mls2GoogleEarth2.1.zip (7.04 KiB)
#89
redzarf wrote:
If you get any further errors please let me know (PM might be faster.)
Mikerowaved sent me some sample output, that helped me track down a bug that only occurred when the country was the last column of the data - (Mikerowaved, was that the case for the data you had inputted? If not, can you send me the first couple of lines of your data - strip out any personal info.)

Attached is a new version.
📎 mls2GoogleEarth2.1.zip (7.04 KiB)
Community Moderators
#90
Yup, that fixed it (for me anyway). Well done!

The problem I'm seeing now is when I pass the KML file to Google Earth, the pins are close, but not quite there. Most of them run down the middle of the street with a slight bias toward the correct side of the street, but unfortunately, I've found several that are as much as 2 houses off. Fortunately, Google Earth lets you move the pins (using Properties) to the right location, but for a typical unit, that's a LOT of pins to tweak.

I'm a novice Google Earth user, so forgive my dumb question, but is there a way to view it as a map only and not as an areal photo without going online?

Tnx,
Mike
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#91
Google Earth always shows the aerial view, but there does seem to be a sneaky way to do what you want.

On the left of the screen you probably have a kml file loaded in the places list. If you right-click on one of the items in the list and choose Add->Polygon. Under Style-> Area you'll want it to be filled, and choose a colour other than white or yellow, or any of the other road-colours. Then before clicking ok you'll click on the map to mark in the points that surround the new area/polygon, then click ok.
New Member
#92
redzarf wrote:Mikerowaved sent me some sample output, that helped me track down a bug that only occurred when the country was the last column of the data - (Mikerowaved, was that the case for the data you had inputted? If not, can you send me the first couple of lines of your data - strip out any personal info.)

Attached is a new version.
Thanks for the updated version. It works wonderfully for me!

FYI, I was able to get the prior version to work in IE 7 by remarking out that section of the code causing the problem:
// try {
// netscape.security.PrivilegeManager.enablePrivilege("UniversalBrowserRead");
// } catch (e) {
// alert("Permission UniversalBrowserRead denied.");
// window.document.getElementById("statusMessage").value = "Failed :-(";
// return;
// }

It's not elegant, but it was very interesting to use the program.
New Member
#93
redzarf wrote:Mikerowaved sent me some sample output, that helped me track down a bug that only occurred when the country was the last column of the data - (Mikerowaved, was that the case for the data you had inputted? If not, can you send me the first couple of lines of your data - strip out any personal info.)

Attached is a new version.

I've now played with it a bit and have the following thoughts that may be helpful if you develop it further:

1. It appears that the KML file that is produced contains a reference to a style id of "blueicon" for each placemark, however it appears that "blueicon" is never actually defined within the file.
2. Some posts in this forum have suggested the addresses are too close togehter, and perhaps that could be helped by scaling down the size of the "pushpin" image.
3. To do this I experimented inserting an additional box in the web page with this code (my insertion bolded):

</ul>


<b>Icon Scale: </b><input type="text" size=2 id="IconScale" name="IconScale" value="1">
</td></tr></table>

and then using the newly created "IconScale" value to define the scaling of the icon in the previoiusly un-undefined "blueicon" style id (my insertion bolded):

window.document.getElementById('csvOutput').value = "<?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"UTF-8\"?>\n<kml xmlns=\"http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0\">\n<Document>\n<name>" + window.document.getElementById("WardName").value + "</name>\n<Style id=\"blueicon\">\n <IconStyle>\n <scale>" + window.document.getElementById("IconScale").value + "</scale>\n </IconStyle>\n</Style>\n<Folder>\n<name>Locations</name>\n<open>1</open>\n";;

4. This makes the default value for the icon scale 1 and if you want it to appear smaller you can change the value in the box to something like ".5" (for half the size). If you, as the author of the program, wanted to do such a thing, you could include this new variable and value in the defaults that are used, etc.

Thanks for creating such a helpful program.
#94

MLS-KML v2.3 - two new features

sjpynes wrote:I've now played with it a bit and have the following thoughts that may be helpful if you develop it further:
Thanks, great suggestion, I've added it in, attached is v2.3 (the last two versions were both 2.1 - oops!)

I've also added another setting which will allow you to specify a field that can define the styleicon/styleurl or a specified icon (and still just default to blueicon if those are blank.)

The only reason for using blueicon is that is what David Ostler had used (my script was initially based on his), and is a default icon used by Google in some of their samples, so didn't need to be defined.

If anyone wants to come up with a few selections of the icons they think people would want I'm happy to add the ability to choose.
📎 mls2GoogleEarth2.3.zip (7.29 KiB)
New Member
#95
redzarf wrote:Thanks, great suggestion, I've added it in, attached is v2.3 (the last two versions were both 2.1 - oops!)
Thank you for incorporating those additions.

I have another suggestion from working more with the program. The name labels for the placemarks always come out white - which for the arial view of our ward is hard to read. It would be great to show the labels in another color and be able to scale them as well. You could add another couple of text boxs so the user could input the label color (default to value ffffffff for white, i.e., ff00ffff for a bright yellow name label) and scale.

Text boxes:
<input type="text" size=9 id="LabelColor" name="LabelColor" value="ffffffff">
<input type="text" size=2 id="LabelScale" name="LabelScale" value="1">

Further definition of the style:
window.document.getElementById('csvOutput').value = "<?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"UTF-8\"?>\n<kml xmlns=\">" + window.document.getElementById("WardName").value + "</name>\n<Style id=\"blueicon\">\n <LabelStyle>\n <color>" + window.document.getElementById("LabelColor").value + "</color>\n <scale>" + window.document.getElementById("LabelScale").value + "</scale>\n </LabelStyle>\n <IconStyle>\n <scale>" + window.document.getElementById("IconScale").value + "</scale>\n </IconStyle>\n</Style>\n<Folder>\n<name>Locations</name>\n<open>1</open>\n";;

Thanks again.
#96

MLS-KML v2.4

MLS-KML v2.4 attached with sjpynes' LabelStyle suggestions.
📎 mls2GoogleEarth2.4.zip (7.43 KiB)
New Member
#97
redzarf wrote:MLS-KML v2.4 attached with sjpynes' LabelStyle suggestions.
Wow!

It works great. I created a map of all ward members using reduced size icons (.6) and slightly reduced names (.8) in yellow that were semi-transparent (8c00ffff). We can now use this to help us reorganize our Aaronic Priesthood fast offering collection routes. The ability in Google Earth to twist and tilt the image really help getting things organized effeciently.

Many, many thanks again.
New Member
#98

My simple addition

redzarf wrote:MLS-KML v2.4 attached with sjpynes' LabelStyle suggestions.

I wish I had found these forums when I was first wrestling with mapping issues. I ended up modding the Ostler Python script to do what I wanted. Still not entirely happy with it as I have found Google Earth/Maps to be the least reliable for correct lat/long. In case anyone is interested in it I have tried to attach it here. After seeing some of the other ideas, I may work on it again or scrap it and use someone else's. At least now I know where to look first for a solution next time. :D
New Member
#99

New guy

Ok, so I've stumbled upon this forum. I'm not an IT person (counsellor if you're really interested), so I don't understand a lot of what is discussed on here.

I REALLY like the possibilities of this mapping stuff that I can see you guys discussing in the forum, but is it at all possible for a non-computer type of person to do this? I can download Google Earth and play around with it, but I don't know anything about the coding that it seems you have to do in order to create the ward maps.

Is this a realistic possibility for me, or should I just wait until the Church releases something that will be easier for use by priesthood leaders?

I'm currently serving as a stake president and our stake covers a VERY large area...boundaries are often confused, so something like this would be very helpful for us.

Anyhow, looking forward to your thoughts on whether or not someone without computer skills could use the mapping "thingo" that you smart guys have created.

Thanks,

Ian
#100

KML is not just for geeks :-)

bibnib wrote:Is it at all possible for a non-computer type of person to do this?
No, it shouldn't be any harder than posting to a forum and installing Google Earth :)

Try downloading, unzipping, and running the file I'd attached a few posts above.

Once its opened in your browser theres instructions over on the side, the hardest step is probably going to be getting hold of the data from your clerks/LUWS :-)

Feel free to send me a private message if you run into any difficulties.
New Member
#101

You guys are sooo clever!!

I now feel guilty for all the nerd jokes I've ever made...you guys are sooooo clever!! I'm very pleased that I stumbled onto this forum.

Thank you to David Ostler and Fraser Redmond, and anyone else with a hand in developing this utility. It's terrific.

Regards,

Ian
#102
bibnib wrote:I now feel guilty for all the nerd jokes I've ever made...you guys are sooooo clever!!
Hey, we fell the love man! It's all good! ;)
Jason D. Griffith
Pampa Ward, Amarillo Stake (Texas)
Community Guidelines
#103

Stuck on 1st record

version 2.4 seems to get stuck on the first record: "Processing Row 1 of 498 (Adams, Steve)"

. Using IE7, and the membership.csv file from MLS 2.8

ideas?
New Member
#104

Geo Codes

I realizes its not a picture but if you were to use the ward Geo code feature wouldn't it do the same thing? you can set it up to fit your ward and then you know which members are in an area. This works for Home teaching, presidency visits, Emergency prep. etc
#105
rickhellewell wrote:version 2.4 seems to get stuck on the first record: "Processing Row 1 of 498 (Adams, Steve)"

. Using IE7, and the membership.csv file from MLS 2.8

ideas?
Try it again, and see if there are any javascript errors (in IE there would be a little yellow icon in the status bar in the bottom-left corner - double click it and it will tell you line and character numbers and error message. It also has next/previous buttons below that, and if those aren't disabled then they'll show more error messages, which may be helpful.)
#106

Script Error message

The error shows:

Line 457
Char 5
Message "Permission Denied"
Code 0

Thanks...Rick
Community Moderators
#107
Rick, are you running XP or Vista?
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#108

..continued...

Sorry, did not include that info.

Running XP Pro, latest MS patches, McAFee AV 8.5 with latest patches), IE7 version 7.0.5730.11. IMB Thinkpad T42, 1GB RAM, 2GB free disk space.
Community Administrator
#109
Are you the local administrator, or are you running with Power User rights?
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#110
(you'd think I'd remember to answer that one too).

Full local admin user. Fails at home with local network sharing, or at the office without authentication to work network.
#111

Permission denied...

Seems to be a security level problem.

I'm not sure what the best way to solve it is (maybe someone else will describe it better) but I think this will work:
In Internet Explorer go to Tools->Internet Options->Security->Trusted Sites->Sites button
1) untick Require server verification
2) add file:\\C\ (you can enter more of the path if you want.)
#112
Problem found: possibly fixed by allowing the file in the Trusted Sites area. Probably fixed because of a web filtering problem at the office blocking access to the mapping function.

Good process, although Yahoo Maps has some accuracy errors on a few addresses. Not a problem, though. Used the resultant kmz file and then used colored polygons to make geocode areas. Next step will be to add some custom pointers in different areas.

Thanks...Rick...
Senior Member
#113
redzarf wrote:No, it shouldn't be any harder than posting to a forum and installing Google Earth :)

Try downloading, unzipping, and running the file I'd attached a few posts above.

Once its opened in your browser theres instructions over on the side, the hardest step is probably going to be getting hold of the data from your clerks/LUWS
I tried it, and it worked as advertised, but. . . .

Of over 260 addresses, all standardized to USPS format (including ZIP+4) using this utility, geocoding was successful on only about 160 of the addresses. I suspect this is due to the 911 addressing issues I mentioned elsewhere.

Also, my ward is so spread out geographically, the resulting map in Google Earth is not very useful. I don't know whether there are display settings I can change to see if it the resulting map can be made more usable.
Member
#114
rickhellewell wrote:Good process, although Yahoo Maps has some accuracy errors on a few addresses.
Which is why I use batchgeocode.com, which uses Yahoo Maps, strictly as a backup. Specifically, if it can't find a street, it often places the point in the middle of the ZIP Code; if the ZIP Code is off (as it sometimes is, since I don't have time to check all of them from what the wards have) it can get confused. If it places the point at least in the right ward, I'll usually take what I can get though.
New Member
#115

Please Contact "Mormon Hacker"--major security risk

tomw wrote:I've had discussions today with managers from various departments within the Church...

Tom

There's another site at the following URL where someone calling himself "Mormon Hacker" is giving people directions on how to Google Earth their ward directory. The only problem with his directions is that they include POSTING your ENTIRE WARD DIRECTORY (including names) TO a SITE that's likely NOT even ADMINISTERED BY MEMBERS (batchgeocode.com)!
http://mormonhacker.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... ry-on.html

I wonder if you guys need to have a talk with this fellow.

On another note, I was thinking about writing a script myself to convert a ward-directory CSV from lds.org directly to a KML file for Google Earth, but then I realized that I'd better run a net sniff on Google Earth first, to make sure that it's not "phoning home" to transmit the KML-file information back to Google, which would be another security risk. If it all works out, I'll report back here.
#116

Geocode lookup not really a problem with confidential data

I believe the geocode program just does a Yahoo geocode lookup on the address (street, city, state, zip). I don't think that the other personal data is uploaded. I haven't looked at the process, but a Yahoo geocode lookup is only interested in the street/city/state/zip data. That is not really 'personally identifiable information'.

If you are really worried about the other data, then strip it from the CSV, so that only the street/city/state/zip data is left. Or just replace all that other data in the columns with junk, and then cut/paste the geocode info back after the lookup.
Senior Member
#117
I will check into it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Tom
KOlive43 wrote:There's another site at the following URL where someone calling himself "Mormon Hacker" is giving people directions on how to Google Earth their ward directory. The only problem with his directions is that they include POSTING your ENTIRE WARD DIRECTORY (including names) TO a SITE that's likely NOT even ADMINISTERED BY MEMBERS (batchgeocode.com)!
http://mormonhacker.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... ry-on.html

I wonder if you guys need to have a talk with this fellow.

On another note, I was thinking about writing a script myself to convert a ward-directory CSV from lds.org directly to a KML file for Google Earth, but then I realized that I'd better run a net sniff on Google Earth first, to make sure that it's not "phoning home" to transmit the KML-file information back to Google, which would be another security risk. If it all works out, I'll report back here.
Senior Member
#118

My own solution -- Yahoo geocoding, Google Earth visualizing and end-user editing

JTaber wrote:Which is why I use batchgeocode.com, which uses Yahoo Maps, strictly as a backup. Specifically, if it can't find a street, it often places the point in the middle of the ZIP Code; if the ZIP Code is off (as it sometimes is, since I don't have time to check all of them from what the wards have) it can get confused. If it places the point at least in the right ward, I'll usually take what I can get though.

That is a property of batchgeocode.com, not of Yahoo. What the batchgeocode.com web page does (client-side) is send repeated calls to the Yahoo geocoding API. Yahoo actually returns two additional data attributes for each address, describing the quality of the geocoding transaction. But the implementer of batchgeocode.com -- which is otherwise nicely done -- chose not to do anything with those attributes. It just accepts the coding to a zip centroid without so much as a warning.

I found this unacceptable. So I wrote my own VBScript that talks to the Yahoo API directly, and retrieves the addresses along with the precision attributes. Then I can deal with the exceptions offline before plotting the map. Most often the root cause of a bad geocoding transaction is poorly formatted input data in MLS. Garbage In, Garbage Out.

My script does do some minimal preprocessing of the input data to scrub some common style errors in addresses. I plan to experiment with preprocssing the addresses further through calls to a Postal Service API, but that may be gilding the lily.

I have found the quality of Yahoo's lat/lon geocoding to be quite good for my urban location. Of about 570 records I submitted for our huge ward, all but about 7 errors were due to bad address data. On these 7 records, Yahoo's geocoding database could not find the correctly formatted addresses, but I was able to geocode them manually on other sites such as Google. So I ended up with 100 percent of the geocodable records successfully geocoded. I am working on a way to store such exceptions locally so the work doesn't have to be repeated for the next update..

BTW, my own solution --a work in progress -- uses .Yahoo's geocoder, but the output is KML for display in Google Earth. ( I also have a precise ward boundary layer that I produced in commercial GIS software, but that's a separate piece. Easily done with the right tools.)

The smarts offered in Google Earth's interface, which runs as a local application, surpass those of a purely web-based viewer.

The next step I see is producing Google Earth hierachies of HT/VT routes for the appropiate leaders to use. Beyond just visualizing, they should be able to do interacive what-if geographic editing of routes inside Google Earth, then export the results. (The only thing missing would be integration with MLS :-)

p.s. I'm new here. Thanks to the work of those implementers upthread, whose ideas I have adapted.
Community Moderators
#119
Wow, welcome to the forum! I'm very much interested in test driving your VBS when you get it ready. It sounds like you've found and addressed some of the problems I've run into with other solutions.

Mike
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#120
Mikerowaved wrote:Wow, welcome to the forum! I'm very much interested in test driving your VBS when you get it ready. It sounds like you've found and addressed some of the problems I've run into with other solutions.

I posted a status report and general description on another thread. http://tech.lds.org/forum/showpost.php? ... stcount=36 (There are several mapping / geocoding threads on LDS TECH, and I have a hard time keeping them straight.)

Basically I am almost through with development of a VBScript-based solution, and have shared the results with our ward leaders. There are two scripts, one geocodes and the other uses the results -- after review and offline editng of address exceptions --
to produce KML files for general ward membership, home teaching and visiting teaching.

But the complexity is reaching the point that it really ought to be wrapped into a real application if it is to be shared with end-users. This is driven by the inherent requirement to edit exceptions and manage them for ongoing updates. In our huge ward, with many incoming and departing families, that should include weekly updates from MLS.

I am wondering where to go from here.
Senior Member
#121

Thanks again to Kevin Ball

BTW, I finally got Kevin Ball's script to run on my XP machine. It never did work for me because of issues with IE7, apparently. But Firefox handles it fine.

So I now can better appreciate Kevin's original invention, which started this whole thread. Some of us (me included) have sort of hijacked the thread with our own projects.

I hope Kevin is still following this thread. Thanks.

In the future I may try to merge some of his ideas (and, with his permission, some of his code) with my own.

One think I like about the Yahoo maps display, versus the Google Earth display I have been using, is that it provides a crisp map rendering without the glitzy satellite-photo background. That is important when you need a printout. For example, one of the needs we have in our huge ward is a way to support the efforts of the guy who manages fast-offering routes, and he needs to produce a clear printout to hand to the priesthood brethren collecting.

But there are other applications where Google Earth seems better. And I want to drive GE and/or Yahoo Maps with selection logic based on MLS extracts, including home- and visiting-teaching files. (I don't think the free Google Maps API is suitable because of Google's terms of service.)
New Member
#122
boomerbubba wrote:BTW, I finally got Kevin Ball's script to run on my XP machine. It never did work for me because of issues with IE7, apparently. But Firefox handles it fine.

So I now can better appreciate Kevin's original invention, which started this whole thread. Some of us (me included) have sort of hijacked the thread with our own projects.

I hope Kevin is still following this thread. Thanks.

In the future I may try to merge some of his ideas (and, with his permission, some of his code) with my own.

One think I like about the Yahoo maps display, versus the Google Earth display I have been using, is that it provides a crisp map rendering without the glitzy satellite-photo background. That is important when you need a printout. For example, one of the needs we have in our huge ward is a way to support the efforts of the guy who manages fast-offering routes, and he needs to produce a clear printout to hand to the priesthood brethren collecting.

But there are other applications where Google Earth seems better. And I want to drive GE and/or Yahoo Maps with selection logic based on MLS extracts, including home- and visiting-teaching files. (I don't think the free Google Maps API is suitable because of Google's terms of service.)
I do continue to monitor this thread and am quite happy to see so many good ideas coming off of this. Keep up the great work!
Senior Member
#123
kevandcan wrote:I do continue to monitor this thread and am quite happy to see so many good ideas coming off of this. Keep up the great work!

Thanks.

BTW, when I say I got your VBScript to work, I sort of had to kludge it. I ran the script, which creates C:\WARDMAP.HTM and then hangs. I think it hangs on the line where you invoke an Internet Explorer object and have it navigate to that file URL. IE7 doesn't like that. (I have a script at work that drives IE that way to harvest data from remote web pages, and it also broke when I installed IE7. I had to tweak security settings in IE to make that script work, but I haven't hit upon the right tweak with yours.)

So what I do is run WardMap.vbs until it hangs, then exit and open C:\WARDMAP.HTM in Firefox. I do have problems printing the map in FIrefox, which I assume to be an unfortunate interaction between that browser and the Yahoo API's map on the page..
Community Administrator
#124
As a general rule it's a bad idea to write things to the root of the C drive. For starters, I think only the Administrator has rights to do that.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
New Member
#125

Making Progress

Last year Kevandcan woke us up to the potential of the community. This year we will plan to get serious about kicking off some open source projects. It has taken us a few years to get to the point we're ready, but we are just about there.

In the meantime, check out the new beta app we just released

Beta Maps

This was inspired, in part, by Kevandcan's great work. We've created a mapping service which takes the lat/long data for meetinghouses and plots it on Google's or Microsoft's mapping service. In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information.

Lots of good stuff. Stay tuned and get ready to throw in and help. We'll be kicking off an open source projet in the coming months...
Community Moderators
#126
Joel Dehlin wrote:Last year Kevandcan woke us up to the potential of the community. This year we will plan to get serious about kicking off some open source projects. It has taken us a few years to get to the point we're ready, but we are just about there.

In the meantime, check out the new beta app we just released

Beta Maps

This was inspired, in part, by Kevandcan's great work. We've created a mapping service which takes the lat/long data for meetinghouses and plots it on Google's or Microsoft's mapping service. In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information.

Lots of good stuff. Stay tuned and get ready to throw in and help. We'll be kicking off an open source projet in the coming months...
The Beta Maps is a cool idea. I sent feedback about the default MicroSloth mapping service failing to ever update the map when using Firefox on Linux, the "Close Window" button on the feedback acknowledgment page not working under some conditions, and the location of the meetinghouse I attend being wrong.

Open source projects are great. I hope I might be able to participate.
Senior Member
#127
rmrichesjr wrote:I sent feedback about the default MicroSloth mapping service failing to ever update the map when using Firefox on Linux...
I'll see if I can reproduce the bug. Although, I have to say, the Microsoft map was quite a bit more current than the Google map in my area.
New Member
#128

VERY rewarding!

Joel Dehlin wrote:Last year Kevandcan woke us up to the potential of the community. This year we will plan to get serious about kicking off some open source projects. It has taken us a few years to get to the point we're ready, but we are just about there.

In the meantime, check out the new beta app we just released

Beta Maps

This was inspired, in part, by Kevandcan's great work. We've created a mapping service which takes the lat/long data for meetinghouses and plots it on Google's or Microsoft's mapping service. In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information.

Lots of good stuff. Stay tuned and get ready to throw in and help. We'll be kicking off an open source projet in the coming months...

I must say that it is very rewarding/satisfying to see the beta maps out! The application looks great and I'm excited to see it mature and help the local units. Thanks for reaching out to the community and listening and implementing. You're doing a great job! -- Kevin
New Member
#129

Mapping members

Joel Dehlin wrote: In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information.
In our area many of the members live in rural areas and their addresses consist of route number, box number. Of course most geocoders can not locate these members. Of those members that do have a valid address we have a geocode rate of about 80-90% at about the 60-70% accuracy level.

I am interested to see how the church is going to address these issues. They could use the same type of interactive communication Google maps uses to allow users to move the location of geocoded objects. However there are still some part of the world and the US for that matter where the base maps for the area are not to a point where one can locate the exact location of homes. Check out Limestone Maine.

In conversation with MLS tech suppor (via MLS messages) the church is investigating a way to include X,Y location in MLS for households. Until that happens MLS tech support has informed our unit that we can experiment with custom fields and/or using the address field to store X,Y information. We have chosen to use the address field, this enables tech savy members to use client side applications such as Google Earth to view member location. Hopefully this will also allow the church to map out our members when the time comes.
Senior Member
#130
CuriousGIS wrote:In our area many of the members live in rural areas and their addresses consist of route number, box number. Of course most geocoders can not locate these members. Of those members that do have a valid address we have a geocode rate of about 80-90% at about the 60-70% accuracy level.

I am interested to see how the church is going to address these issues. They could use the same type of interactive communication Google maps uses to allow users to move the location of geocoded objects. However there are still some part of the world and the US for that matter where the base maps for the area are not to a point where one can locate the exact location of homes. Check out Limestone Maine.

In conversation with MLS tech suppor (via MLS messages) the church is investigating a way to include X,Y location in MLS for households. Until that happens MLS tech support has informed our unit that we can experiment with custom fields and/or using the address field to store X,Y information. We have chosen to use the address field, this enables tech savy members to use client side applications such as Google Earth to view member location. Hopefully this will also allow the church to map out our members when the time comes.

My somewhat educated guess is that Church developers do contemplate giving local clerks an interactive interface such as you describe to get coordinates corrected directly. And the ultimate fallback is GPS, which is no longer a novelty.

My concern is that the Church application needs to get the addresses validated and scrubbed upstream in the master database as well, and mobilize clerks to correct those errors in MLS. Then both corrected addresses and lat/lon coordinates should exist there.

While your observation about rural areas is quite valid, for most urban and suburban areas in the United States the street-address geocoding is still the primary source,. The addresses themselves have to be cleaned up and verified by clerks. It is a classic example of GIGO. In many or most geocoders, both the addresses and the coordinates would be processed in one or two passes.

I am interested in your workaround to store coordinates in the existing MLS fields. Did you consider using the legacy "Geo code" fields in tandem to store the two coordinates (Stake field = lat, Ward field = lon) or are they already occupied? The notion of keying all that into MLS seems too labor intensive to me anyway. Our solution is to maintain our geocoded tables outside MLS automatically, and manage the exceptions during weekly updates.
New Member
#131

Where to store X,Y data in MLS

boomerbubba wrote:I am interested in your workaround to store coordinates in the existing MLS fields. Did you consider using the legacy "Geo code" fields in tandem to store the two coordinates (Stake field = lat, Ward field = lon) or are they already occupied? The notion of keying all that into MLS seems too labor intensive to me anyway. Our solution is to maintain our geocoded tables outside MLS automatically, and manage the exceptions during weekly updates.
Originally we stored the data outside of MLS and this worked fine for the person updating the information. However no other members had access to the information unless the updating person copied the information to the MLS computer. Even if others had access to the data they would have to create joins to relate the MLS list and the XY data together, which was asking too much of most clerks/members. The data would quickly become out of date since our ward seems to turn over quite a few members throughout the year and multiple clerks would be updating the address information.

We tried storing the information in a custom field. This proved to be cumbersome, as the user has to enter the data in a separate form from where most of the membership information is stored. Also the only way for members to gain access to this data is the run a custom report or manually look up the data.
We then tried using the Geocodes, ie the Ward and Stake to store X and Y respectively. This was also cumbersome to input into MLS, even though we could open the form from the membership's record we had to pull up each geocode separately and the amount of characters is limited. If memory serves me correctly only eight characters can be stored, this would equate to -128.345 which is not enough accuracy to reliably locate the location to the house. Additionally, the only way for members to gain access to the data was by exporting the data from MLS and this also reveals information that most of the members do not need access to.

By storing the data in the second address field, separating the X and Y with a coma enables members easy access to the data via the ward website. It is easy to update since the user does not have to content with forms popping up, and if the member's address changes the clerk can easily delete the XY data and/or put in the correct information. (With the other two methods, we would sometimes have old XY data left in the record when an address changed. It is still possible to do this but easier to to remember to change because it is right in front of you.) The only problem is when the bishop or other leaders print off labels for ward members, though I would think the post office could still deliver the mail with the extra information attached to the address.
Senior Member
#132
CuriousGIS wrote:Originally we stored the data outside of MLS and this worked fine for the person updating the information. However no other members had access to the information unless the updating person copied the information to the MLS computer. Even if others had access to the data they would have to create joins to relate the MLS list and the XY data together, which was asking too much of most clerks/members. The data would quickly become out of date since our ward seems to turn over quite a few members throughout the year and multiple clerks would be updating the address information.

Hmm. We have a huge ward with a lot of turnover, and update every week. Our scriptsproduce geocoded KML and .csv files covering everyone in the ward with a valid address, scrubbed by the clerks with errors resolved, The full ward map plus KML files for home- and visiting-teaching are emailed to an expanding list of about 20 ward leaders. Soon we will probably institute an email distribution of the general ward map to anyone who signs up. (If the restrictions on LUWS were ever loosened to allow .kmz attachments, we could just do that. Of course, we could store the .csv file as an .xls attachment. today, but that would only benefit techies who could deal with the coordinates themselves. KML is a one-click operaton for an end user to display it in Google Earth. Even the High Priests can do it.)

I just finished our routine weekly update of the geocdoing update, KML production and distribution. It took about 30 minutes start to finish.
CuriousGIS wrote:
By storing the data in the second address field, separating the X and Y with a coma enables members easy access to the data via the ward website. It is easy to update since the user does not have to content with forms popping up, and if the member's address changes the clerk can easily delete the XY data and/or put in the correct information. (With the other two methods, we would sometimes have old XY data left in the record when an address changed. It is still possible to do this but easier to to remember to change because it is right in front of you.) The only problem is when the bishop or other leaders print off labels for ward members, though I would think the post office could still deliver the mail with the extra information attached to the address.

While I see the appeal of getting this into the LUWS files for those techies who can parse the data, this would not be my choice. I am a bit fanatical about not using address fields for anything but addresses.
Senior Member
#133

Fascinating Video on Virtual Earth image capture

I'm posting this here because I thought people following this thread would find this video as fascinating as I did. Moderators feel free to move it elsewhere, since it's not directly related to the thread topic.

Get inside the planes that capture Microsoft Virtual Earth
New Member
#134

How soon is soon?

In the quote below by Joel, he states "In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information". This is something that local ward leadership is really anxious for! Folks love the current maps.lds.org, but most of them don't need to check where their chapel is weekly - or monthly - or yearly. I think the real benefit will be when members can pull up a ward map showing where everyone lives. Hopefully the "near future" is soon! :-)
Joel Dehlin wrote: This was inspired, in part, by Kevandcan's great work. We've created a mapping service which takes the lat/long data for meetinghouses and plots it on Google's or Microsoft's mapping service. In the near future we'll also plot ward membership information.

Lots of good stuff. Stay tuned and get ready to throw in and help. We'll be kicking off an open source projet in the coming months...
New Member
#135

Updated WardMap VBS file

I've recently received quite a few emails from people complaining that the VBS file I wrote to generate Yahoo! WardMaps no longer works. I finally had some time to look into this and have updated the code to work with Yahoo!'s latest API.

You can download the new file at the following site: http://wardmap.theballfamily.org
New Member
#136

Dense

I am a little dense and don't quite understand how to change the script for Vista. I have used the MLS2Google maps, but was looking for an alternative. Thanks
--
Chris Peterson
chrisrpeterson@gmail.com
New Member
#137

Vista adaptation

To be honest, I'm not sure, since I don't have Vista, I can't test it. All it is doing is writting an HTML file with the appropriate javascript. If you visit the Windows Scripting link on the URL referenced on my site, there is likely some documentation about writing WSH on Vista. Others in this forum may have Vista and have modified the script to make it work. I've even seen folks who rewrote the script in Perl really quickly too...
Community Administrator
#138
kevandcan wrote:All it is doing is writting an HTML file with the appropriate javascript.
The question is where is it writing it to? Vista get unhappy with things being written to C:\Program Files.

If the script can be modified to write to %TEMP%, %APPDATA%, or somewhere under %ALLUSERSPROFILE% then you should be good.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
New Member
#139

Writing

RussellHltn wrote:The question is where is it writing it to? Vista get unhappy with things being written to C:\Program Files.

If the script can be modified to write to %TEMP%, %APPDATA%, or somewhere under %ALLUSERSPROFILE% then you should be good.

The script writes to C:\ (your root). Easy enough to change - just open the script and point to somewhere else.
Community Administrator
#140
kevandcan wrote:The script writes to C:\ (your root).
It may not like that either. I know for XP you need to be the local admin to have the full rights to that.

I think the suggested locations are Win2000 and XP compatible and do not require admin privileges to use.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
New Member
#141
I just recently stumbled upon tech.lds.org. and found this thread. I have been geocoding my entire stake myself for a couple of years using the Yahoo! geocoding service to produce a GPX file from the vCard file on the LUWS. The program I wrote is in C++. The benefit of producing a GPX file is that it can be direclty viewed using Google Earth, but also may be importable into GPS navigation units. It can also be parsed by a Java script.

It would be my suggestion that if the church is working on making some mapping of wards available via the LUWS, that it also include the option of downloading a GPX file. It would contain no more information than the current vCard file (except lat/lons) and would be more broadly useful.

The question of dealing with errors does come up. I give all errors a default lat/lon of a meetinghouse parking lot.

In the process of doing this, I find that having addresses mapped out like this can lead to cleaner records. For instance, when I map all the member of my upstate, NY Stake and find someone comes out in Boston, Rochester, NYC, or England, that's a red flag that some clerk needs to fix or forward a record.

(see also http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2757 )
Senior Member
#142
brooksby wrote:I just recently stumbled upon tech.lds.org. and found this thread. I have been geocoding my entire stake myself for a couple of years using the Yahoo! geocoding service to produce a GPX file from the vCard file on the LUWS.

I assume you are using the geocoder in Yahoo's Maps API? I suggest that you look closely at their legal Terms of Use, which severely restrict permissable use:
1. f. YOU SHALL NOT ...
(ix) use the stand-alone geocoder for any use other than displaying Yahoo! Maps or displaying points on Yahoo! Maps;
(x) publish or display, or allow other users to publish or display, any geocoded location information using any Yahoo! Maps APIs; or
(xi) use the Yahoo! Maps APIs in a product or service that competes with products or services offered by Yahoo!
I stopped my own, somewhat similar, use of the Yahoo geocoding API when I discovered that.
New Member
#143
Thanks for pointing this out. I'm in the process of investigating other options. I still think that the church should provide a GPX or maybe GeoRSS file for download as well as the CSV and vCard files. That would mean that addresses get geocoded once, by the church, rather than many times by the membership.
New Member
#144
Tom, I just came upon this thread. Any progress on the guidance document you referenced or the added functionality to the LUWS? If the document is available, could you forward? Thanks!
Senior Member
#145
markstorts wrote:Tom, I just came upon this thread. Any progress on the guidance document you referenced or the added functionality to the LUWS? If the document is available, could you forward? Thanks!
I can't answer for the "guidance document" mentioned by Tom Welch way at the beginning of this thread.

As for a feature like this being included in LUWS, I can point you to a LUWS suggestion and bug list from which many of the new features and improvements of the next version will likely come from. Here's the link to the page on the LDS Tech Wiki:

https://tech.lds.org/wiki/index.php/LUW ... uggestions

I just did a search on the page for the phrases "map" and "mapping." The funny thing (or not funny if you think about it too long :o) is that we have somehow forgotten to add this mapping idea (and it's derivatives) to the suggestion list! This was one of the original LUWS suggestions! I'll make sure it gets there if someone else doesn't first in the next few days.
New Member
#146

geocodes

How do the stake and ward geocodes work together? Can anyone enlighten me on this. Why can't the wards identify their geocodes by starting the identifyer with a two letter code for their ward? I saw a posting that said the stake geocodes were very important to create. :confused:

Ivan
Community Moderators
#147
Ivan wrote:How do the stake and ward geocodes work together? Can anyone enlighten me on this. Why can't the wards identify their geocodes by starting the identifyer with a two letter code for their ward? I saw a posting that said the stake geocodes were very important to create. :confused:

Ivan
Since you posted in this thread we need to understand which geocodes you are referring. There are two. There is the geocode that refers to the geographic coordinates for a location on the surface of the earth. The other geocode is the term used in MLS to help create, modify, or analyse ward boundaries and has no relationship to the previous definition. Since you mention stake and ward geocodes then I presume you are referring to the MLS geocodes. That relationship has been explained by others in the tread "Why isn't MLS using the U.S. National Grid?" in the MLS Support, Help, and Feedback forum.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
#148

Sad...

Almost 3 years ago, a member had a useful, working, production website that was shut down by the church, promising that a similar feature was imminent. Three years later, here we are... still with the same LUWS we had 3 years ago.
Senior Member
#149
There are lots of issues to work out. However, you may want to check out their beta site. For more, see this thread.
Community Administrator
#150
WhiteEyebrows wrote:Almost 3 years ago, a member had a useful, working, production website that was shut down by the church, promising that a similar feature was imminent. Three years later, here we are... still with the same LUWS we had 3 years ago.
I for one appreciate that the Church is concerned about the security of membership information being uploaded to third-party servers. That is the issue that led to the recommendation that the software which was mentioned at the beginning of this thread be taken down. The developer understood and agreed to do so. I wouldn't characterize that as "shut down by the church."

At that time, there was no promise "that a similar feature was imminent." The earliest record I can find of an official indication that similar features were coming was in November 2008 in this post. At that point, the first generation of the mapping site was in beta, and ward boundaries were to be added "in the near future."

About a year after that, we have the new beta maps site, which does have ward and stake boundaries, and plots many other Church sites. You can review that in these threads:
Perhaps you were not aware of these developments. I certainly don't see this as sad, but rather an exciting new capability that will help members and nonmembers in many ways. It took some time, but was done in a way that protects privacy, which is a good thing.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
New Member
#151

Your Ward Mapping Capability

Please sign me up!!! I need the ability to grid the ward, Identify who lives where and print the grids for distribution to hometeachers...can you do that?
Community Administrator
#152
brdrake wrote:Please sign me up!!! I need the ability to grid the ward, Identify who lives where and print the grids for distribution to hometeachers...can you do that?
Since you didn't link to any particular post in a long thread that covers multiple topics, I'm not sure what you are referring to (if you use the "Quote" button to initiate your reply, a link to the post you are replying to will automatically be included with the quoted content).

The new.lds.org/maps capability for seeing all ward members' homes plotted on a map is available to all members, with clerks and bishoprics having extra capabilities for verifying addresses.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
Senior Member
#153
brdrake wrote:Please sign me up!!! I need the ability to grid the ward, Identify who lives where and print the grids for distribution to hometeachers...can you do that?
Your boundary maps can be downloaded/printed from CDOL (if you have appropriate privileges). As a stake clerk, I know I can do it for any ward in the stake. I don't think it has grids, but those are easy enough to add by hand.
New Member
#154

I want to move in to the same word as my daughter. She lives in the twin Oaks Valley ward in San Marco’s California

I want to move in to the same word as my daughter. She lives in the twin Oaks Valley Ward in San Marco’s California.
Senior Member
#155

Re: I want to move in to the same word as my daughter. She lives in the twin Oaks Valley ward in San Marco’s California

luekengag wrote:I want to move in to the same word as my daughter. She lives in the twin Oaks Valley Ward in San Marco’s California.
Your daughter can see her ward boundaries. You can see her ward's boundaries if you live in the same stake. You can enter potential home addresses into the meetinghouse locator and it will tell you what ward that address is in. Bear in mind that you could purchase a home in her ward only to find that a boundary change happens sometime in the future that puts you in a different ward (or even a different stake).

This is the address of that ward building: 1250 Borden Road, SAN MARCOS, California 92069-2112. There are 2 wards meeting in that building.
#156
We are trying to provide an emergency preparedness map for our ward to show household member locations. This works for most but some do not work. For example we have 8 households in a trailer park which live on different streets inside the trailer park. The household address all start with 2021 Mahan Avenue and include a street and number. They are all lumped in one household dot since it apparently does not recognize the street and number following the first part of the address even when the map in enlarged considerably. Is there a way around this to get individual household dots at the proper street and number. Note the ward map does show the different streets within the trailer park. Other ward have this problem also.
Any help you could provide would be appreciated.
Thanks,
david Jeppson High Council member assigned to Emergency Prepardness
Member
#157
davidwilliamjeppson wrote:We are trying to provide an emergency preparedness map for our ward to show household member locations. This works for most but some do not work. For example we have 8 households in a trailer park which live on different streets inside the trailer park. The household address all start with 2021 Mahan Avenue and include a street and number. They are all lumped in one household dot since it apparently does not recognize the street and number following the first part of the address even when the map in enlarged considerably. Is there a way around this to get individual household dots at the proper street and number. Note the ward map does show the different streets within the trailer park. Other ward have this problem also.
Any help you could provide would be appreciated.
Thanks,
david Jeppson High Council member assigned to Emergency Prepardness
Your ward clerk can move the dots on the map to the correct locations provided that all the households are seperate in the church records. Every household has a dot that can be moved separately by your ward clerk. He goes to the maps and then selects the household he wants to move.
New Member
#158
What we have done is to provide zone level maps that they can see streets and just give them new list of members by zone/names/address/contact info. New list is much faster then printing new maps.
We also have a ZC make a list in there LDS tool with there family and it will drop those name into a map. And it works when internet is down.
New Member
#159
Would like access to print our Ward Map. Please advise how I can do that. Thanks
Community Administrator
#160
hernandez27 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 6:42 pm Would like access to print our Ward Map. Please advise how I can do that. Thanks
A clerk or other leader with access to CDOL can do it. Log into CDOL, pull up the unit in question, go to the "general information" tab, then toward the bottom right is "boundary maps". Pick the size you want and click on the link to download it.

As far as I know, there's no way to get a map with the location of members. You'll just have to do the best you can with what the browser gives you.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
#161
hernandez27 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 6:42 pm Would like access to print our Ward Map. Please advise how I can do that. Thanks
Any member can see the map for their own ward:
1. Log into the church website
2. Click on the Resources icon (computer: top-right, 9 dots icon; mobile: top-left, 3 lines then resources)
3. Choose Ward directory and Map

It'll show the boundaries of the wards in your stake, and a marker for each household in your ward.

If you're in a leadership calling you'll see those who are marked private, otherwise they'll be hidden from you.

If you want to print the map then there's no option on the website to do that, so you'd have to take a screenshot and then print the screenshot.

One thing to note is that the locations of households are often wrong (in Britain at least, maybe things are different in USA, elsewhere). E.g., whenever we have someone move into the ward if the marker had been set in their previous ward it doesn't get removed when their address changes. Seems like something (someone) does automatically update them for some people, but that process often results in an estimate that is wrong.
Senior Member
#162
fraserredmond wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 12:18 pmOne thing to note is that the locations of households are often wrong (in Britain at least, maybe things are different in USA, elsewhere). E.g., whenever we have someone move into the ward if the marker had been set in their previous ward it doesn't get removed when their address changes. Seems like something (someone) does automatically update them for some people, but that process often results in an estimate that is wrong.
There has been discussion in other threads about new locations showing up incorrectly (for move-ins as well as intra-ward moves). It was stated that there was a time when there was a bug in the Church system that was subsequently resolved, but then additional comments stated that the bug appeared to have been reintroduced. This seems to be related to what you're describing, perhaps the same underlying issue.

As always, submitting Feedback is the official way to get this in front of the Church development team. As we're all on the outside, there's no way to know if it's something the Church is actively looking into, or if it's in limbo.
Church Employee
#163
If you have current instances (moved in in the last 2 months) where the pins didn't moved with a move in feel free to PM me the details.
Member
#164
jonesrk wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:51 am If you have current instances (moved in in the last 2 months) where the pins didn't moved with a move in feel free to PM me the details.
Regarding the "pins", I noticed the other day that I seem to have acquired the ability to click the "Verify Location" button on any member in the ward:
verifylocation.png
verifylocation.png (9.21 KiB) Viewed 1830 times
I had no idea what it would do so I clicked it and to my surprise it didn't give me an error. I'm not sure why I should be allowed to click this as I am not currently a clerk in my ward. Is this a bug, or just something that is allowed to any member in the ward? Or does it not really do anything except store something in my own personal account?
#165
for the last several days, accessing pdf maps from the "general information" tab in CDOL no longer works, but returns an error "site wasn't available"

this seems to happen for any unit that you try, anybody else seeing this and have a workaround?
Church Employee
#166
Something changed out from under CDOL. They're working on a fix.