remove nonmember spouse's name from online ward directory

How do I make it so her nonmember husband's does not show up on the online ward directory but her name does?

A member does not want her nonmember husband's name to show up on the online ward directory.

I noticed that some non-member spouses show, while others do not.

I thought that I could remove her husband's non-member record, and re-add her marriage info without creating a nonmember record. However, under the MLS tools "remove nonmember record" and "remove temporary record" her husband is not listed. I now do not know what to do.

Are you talking about the "classic" LUWS? I don't think it will show anyone unless there's a member, non-member, out of unit member, or temporary record for them.

If you're talking about new.lds.org, that's a different story.

Yes, I do not want the non-member husband of a member to be shown on the new online ward directory (new.lds.org).

There seems to be some bugs with that. You may want to talk to Local Unit Support.

We have a similar problem with the online ward directory on the new lds.org site. We have two sisters in our ward who have been separated from their husbands for many years. The husbands' records are not in our ward and never have been; the husbands have never lived in our ward. Both of the sisters are listed as heads of household in our ward MLS system, but the online ward directory is apparently pulling the husbands' names off the wifes' records and listing both of them as being in the household. Knowing both of the sisters quite well, I know that each would be enraged (both have court orders preventing the husbands from having any contact with them or their children) and offended to see their "husbands" names listed beside theirs. I'd like to get it changed before they see it online.

bakebread wrote:We have a similar problem with the online ward directory on the new lds.org site. We have two sisters in our ward who have been separated from their husbands for many years. The husbands' records are not in our ward and never have been; the husbands have never lived in our ward. Both of the sisters are listed as heads of household in our ward MLS system, but the online ward directory is apparently pulling the husbands' names off the wifes' records and listing both of them as being in the household. Knowing both of the sisters quite well, I know that each would be enraged (both have court orders preventing the husbands from having any contact with them or their children) and offended to see their "husbands" names listed beside theirs. I'd like to get it changed before they see it online.

I can't imagine the new online ward directory would just pull names from someone's record like that (if so, I agree it's a major bug). Perhaps try looking in MLS to see if maybe there is a temporary record or nonmember record or something created for those husbands. Try looking on the sister's record to ensure that there is not some listing in her household for the husband. Otherwise, you should report the bug via the Feedback link on the online directory page.

No one mentioned that they had left a Feedback item for this serious bug. So I did that yesterday.

I am in the process of analyzing and documenting the damage in our ward, and it is extensive. I think perhaps 10 percent of all our households are affected. That is, they show an individual, apparently a non-member, as either head of household or spouse when no such record occurs in the MLS roster. (They may show up in the confidential member record, which is where I suspect these names are being generated for the web.) In at least some cases, estranged husbands long removed from the actual households are named as head-of-household. This may be because of a state of separation, or it may be that a divorce was not properly recorded in the confidential member record in MLS to begin with.

And as far as I can see, there is no workaround locally. The only remedy that a user or administrator might have ordinarily would be to suppress an entire household from appearing in the directory. But even that does not work because the user interface compounds the problem: If an administrator tries to edit the profile for such a corrupt record, he always gets a spurious error message: "Sorry, data is temporarily not available for this application. Please try again later." But profile editing works for normal household records. (I suspect the trigger for that anomaly is that in the underlying web service populating the web page, the individualId element used to identify the spurious non-member's record has a -1 instead of a unique ID as all members should. The page logic and error handling gets confused by this state.)

Non-member spouses are pulled from the Marriage Record. That is why they can be displayed without a non-member record in MLS. To remove them from the directory (e.g. in the case of a divorce), you have to edit the Marriage Record in MLS.

The bug of not being able to edit households with non-member Heads of Household will be fixed shortly.

jdcr256 wrote:Non-member spouses are pulled from the Marriage Record. That is why they can be displayed without a non-member record in MLS. To remove them from the directory (e.g. in the case of a divorce), you have to edit the Marriage Record in MLS.

The bug of not being able to edit households with non-member Heads of Household will be fixed shortly.

So is it now Church policy to publish the names of non-member spouses without their permission? If a local unit did that in MLS and published the directory, it would be violating express policy in the MLS manual. And if this is now policy, will MLS itself be changed to list the non-member spouses by default so that MLS is consistent with the website?

Within MLS, the marriage record is treated as confidential data. Not even all MLS users are privileged to see it. Yet these names are now being published to the whole stake.

A marriage is a necessary condition for a husband-wife household, but it is not a sufficient condition. How does Salt Lake know that the couple does, in fact, live together as a household within the ward boundary? There are a variety of types of separation, with or without legal process, that do not involve divorce. So there may in fact be no such "household" in the unit. (See, for example, Comment # 5 above.) And even in cases of divorce, it is not uncommon almong less active families that divorce details are not recorded because they tend not to contact the ward clerk and document the event. Heretofore, such errors of omission have been limited to leaders and clerks, but now they are published generally.

jdcr256 wrote:Non-member spouses are pulled from the Marriage Record. That is why they can be displayed without a non-member record in MLS. To remove them from the directory (e.g. in the case of a divorce), you have to edit the Marriage Record in MLS.

Like Ross I find this a very surprising change of events. I can only hope this feature was reviewed at the highest levels and included legal.

Can I assume that once we are able to edit the household that we can hide the spouse? Or is this a general change in policy and we can expect to see this functionally in MLS as well?

jdcr256 wrote:Non-member spouses are pulled from the Marriage Record. That is why they can be displayed without a non-member record in MLS. To remove them from the directory (e.g. in the case of a divorce), you have to edit the Marriage Record in MLS.

We don't want to remove them from the Marriage Record. We just don't want them to display at lds.org (without permission) for all the world (or at least the stake) to see. That is the problem that needs to be fixed pronto.

jdcr256 wrote:The bug of not being able to edit households with non-member Heads of Household will be fixed shortly.

I can at least verify that this bug appears to be fixed. But I agree with RossEvans, RussellHltn, and others that showing non-members in the directory is a more serious bug.

Some non-member spouses are not being shown even though they are in a marriage record. After the current bug fix, my understanding is that all spouses listed in marriage records will be shown in the online directory.

I've looked for policy on including non-member spouses in printed directories and I have not found any official policy. Handbook 2 addresses including phone numbers and email addresses in the printed directory, but does not mention non-member entries.

http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-admi ... ng#21.1.15

Currently non-member spouses are intentionally included in the on-line directory if they are listed in a marriage record.

There may, or may not, be future features to adjust this visibility, but currently they are expected to be displayed online.

Note: the only visibility to the online directory is for members logged in from that stake. A non-member ldsaccount would not have access as they would not be associated with a unit.

TimRiker wrote:
Currently non-member spouses are intentionally included in the on-line directory if they are listed in a marriage record.

There may, or may not, be future features to adjust this visibility, but currently they are expected to be displayed online.

The problem I, and others here, see with that is that the marriage record may not reflect the current living arrangements and may very well violate policy. With a non-member record, the clerk must obtain the permission of the nonmember before creating one. Without that permission, the clerk has no business putting the non-member's name down on anything. By pulling the nonmember's name from the Marriage records, and not from MLS, the website publishes the nonmember's name with a very real possibility that the nonmember has not even been approached, much less consented to have their name published.

Tim, the policy we're referring to is in the MLS manual, page A-4:

Nonmember Records
Create a nonmember record only when the nonmember
is related to a member of your ward and you
have the permission of the nonmember. These will
be kept in your ward’s computer only and will not be
transmitted to the administration office.
Information on nonmember records will not appear
on organization lists and rolls because the organization
profiles do not include nonmembers. Nonmembers
will appear on family-type reports such as the directory
of members, the telephone directory, and so forth.

I know we're talking technicalities here, but this information is still correct as far as I understand it.
* Nonmember records remain only on your local MLS install
* Local "organization lists and rolls" do not include the nonmember records but "family type reports" do
* Online directory shows marriage records, when most local "family type reports" do not

Thx for the post Russ. I have no new information to add from my internal contacts at this time.
https://tech.lds.org/forum/member.php?127-RussellHltn

TimRiker wrote:* Nonmember records remain only on your local MLS install

I don't know as that was totally correct. I believe classic LUWS would show non-member records.

TimRiker wrote:* Local "organization lists and rolls" do not include the nonmember records but "family type reports" do

But ONLY if a non-member record was created. If policy was followed, this would only happen if the non-member gave permission.

TimRiker wrote:* Online directory shows marriage records, when most local "family type reports" do not

The new online directory does that. Classic LUWS did not.

As pointed out, an accurate marriage record may not accurately reflect current living arrangements.

In thinking about this, I think I know where the problem is and how it's creating a communication issue.

From what I've seen of MLS, it doesn't store "spouse" as part of the household. In the household information, there is just HoH and "member". The code has to look at the marriage record to determine if a member is a spouse or "other" (usually child).

So the new directory is using the marriage record, as it should. The problem is it's not checking to see if the spouse is a member of the household before displaying the name.

I recently came upon this same problem. My wife was looking up a member of a ward and wasn't able to find her until we realized that she was listed with her husband, who is also listed as the head of household. He is in prison and his membership record is even in another state. So he is listed in two different units. Another member is listed with his divorced wife even though she isn't even listed on his current membership record or ios. Perhaps this can be fixed by adding and deleting a phony wife.

I notice that this problem only exists in the Membership List. The information is correct when the member look up is used. This last feature is available to clerks, but not to members in general.

I think that the membership directory should only reflect those persons who actually reside in the ward. The Member lookup used by clerks should have the complete information.

richprice1 wrote:Another member is listed with his divorced wife even though she isn't even listed on his current membership record or ios.

I'm curious: is the divorced wife a member? Does she still have the husband on her record somehow?

I just thought I would mention that on the LDS Tools app for the smartphones, non-member spouses shows up there, just like you're discussing.

I was able to remove one non-member spouse from the lds.org on-line directory by entering in a divorce date. There are others who are separated, but the name of the non-member spouse, who is not in our ward, continues to show up. This will cause some members to feel offended if it is not corrected.

Is this problem going to be fixed before the lds.org membership list replaces the Stake Web Site? Many people are going to be upset. It may even generate a law suit.

I've tried in the past, and I tried again just now. I haven't been able to "get through" to anyone.

The best suggestion is to "submit feedback" since that seems to be the only method to get to the developers. Also gather up all the specific examples you can and call Local Unit Support and work though the issues.

RussellHltn wrote:I've tried in the past, and I tried again just now. I haven't been able to "get through" to anyone.

The best suggestion is to "submit feedback" since that seems to be the only method to get to the developers. Also gather up all the specific examples you can and call Local Unit Support and work though the issues.

I did send feedback back in February; I just recevied a response. My suggestion and response follow:

"You submitted a Suggestion on February 14, 2011 at 6:03 PM:
There appears to be major bug in the online ward directory on the new lds.org website. We have two sisters in our ward who have been separated from their husbands for many years. The husbands' records are not in our ward and never have been; the husbands have never lived in our ward. Both of the sisters are listed as heads of household in our local MLS system, but the online ward directory is apparently pulling the husbands' names off the wifes' records and listing both of them as being in the household. Knowing both of the sisters quite well, I know that each would be enraged (both have court orders preventing the husbands from having any contact with them or their children) and offended to see their "husbands" names listed beside theirs. I'd like to see it changed before they see it online. Additionally, I noticed a similar situation with couples where one spouse is a member and one is not. The online ward directory is listing both husband and wife, even though only one has a record listed in our local MLS (I've thoroughly checked and no record of any kind exists for the non-member spouse). For many such couples this is not a problem, but we have a few in our ward where the non-member spouse has very strong feelings against the church and would not be pleased to find that he/she is being listed as a "member" in the online ward directory. (Some may even be so upset that they would bring legal action against the Church.) Your programmers may have considered this a nice "feature," or it may simply be a bug (the directory on the old website didn't have this problem). In either case, I think it should be fixed so that only those individuals who actually have their own church record appear in the online ward directory. Thank you

The LDS Church responded on September 25, 2011 at 9:31 PM as follows:
Thanks a lot for visiting LDS.org and sending your feedback. Unfortunately, due to the huge number of messages we receive every day, we were not able to answer you before. Regarding your comments and suggestions, I will forward them to those who work on LDS.org, so they can consider them as soon as possible. We appreciate your help and patience as we are working to improve our website. May the Lord bless you."

I'm a member of the Church, and a writer/blogger. I wrote an article about this, because I've been following this issue both here and in my own ward for some time now. It's something that does need to be fixed.

I left the Church back in 2004, but was rebaptized this summer. I saw this issue come up with me showing up in the new directory but not the old until my records showed up (some minor paperwork issues, I was the first rebaptism after removal my leadership did, so it was a teachable moment all around). This wasn't a problem for me at all, but I can see how problems can arise with non-member spouses who may not exactly be receptive to the Church.

http://www.michaelcrook.org/2011/10/05/trouble-with-membership-directories/

The issue of the online directory listing the names of non-member spouses (and member spouses not living in the ward) needs to be taken seriously. One of the non-member spouses in our ward--no records of any kind exist for him in MLS, his name only appears on his wife's record as her spouse--has recently been arrested and extradited for a very violent crime he committed in another state. Yet, the online ward directory still lists him as part of the household.

With record-keeping being such an important Priesthood responsibility, it is ironic that we do not have an online ward directory that accurately reflects the actual members of our ward. It seems that a lot of effort is being put into developing "fun apps" when a basic tool like the online directory still doesn't function properly. We want our ward members to take advantage of the online directory, but as long as it continues to lists non-member spouses for whom records have never been created and spouses who do not live in the ward, we will not encourage members to go online.

Please see that those who make these decisions are aware of the problems, and potential legal ramifications for the Church (as have been noted by many in this thread) as my erfforts have proved unfruitful.

Thank you

bakebread wrote:Please see that those who make these decisions are aware of the problems, and potential legal ramifications for the Church (as have been noted by many in this thread) as my erfforts have proved unfruitful.

I've tried my best and had no success.

My only suggestion is to call Local Unit Support while sitting at the computer and keep pushing, asking for a supervisor if necessary.

bakebread wrote:With record-keeping being such an important Priesthood responsibility, it is ironic that we do not have an online ward directory that accurately reflects the actual members of our ward.

The requirement for the online directory is to accurately represent the household record. If the husband's name is on the marriage record in MLS, the requirement is to display it in the online directory. The intent is to not call attention to non-members and those going through church disciplinary action.

If a member or their spouse does not want their data displayed, there is an option to opt the household out of the online directory. This can be done by any ward or stake leader, or the member themselves. In the future, the directory will allow opting-out individuals, in addition to the entire household.

Additionally, members can work through their Ward Clerks to have the marriage record suppressed. The Clerk can contact MLS support (801-240-3500) for help doing this.

jdcr256 wrote:The requirement for the online directory is to accurately represent the household record.

The problem is the oneline directory does not check to see if a non-member record exists in that household before displaying it. The husband could well be sitting in prison, or separated, and yet the directory shows them as living at that address. Thus, as it stands now, it does NOT accurately reflect the household. It only reflects the marriage. (Which we are not to cancel until the divorce is final.) Not the living arrangements.

I find it odd that the system will display a non-member's name on-line when the MLS procedures prohibit us from creating a record in MLS (which would cause it to appear on the MLS directory) without getting the approval of the non-member. So the current system is circumventing policy.

jdcr256 wrote:The intent is to not call attention to non-members and those going through church disciplinary action.

I understand this intent. Particularly for those whose records may have been removed through disciplinary action, this can be a sensitive issue, and we want to be as supportive as possible.

But if the responsibility is given to bishops, who can direct their clerks to create or delete nonmember records in MLS as needed, this can all be handled properly, with sensitivity to the wide variety of scenarios. The current implementation's choice to show nonmember spouses from the member's membership record removes all control from the local level.

I'm trying hard to imagine a single scenario that cannot be handled by the Directory showing only nonmember records that are explicitly created in MLS at the direction of the bishop. I can't come up with one. But there are all sorts of scenarios (as you can see in this thread) where the choice to use the spouse information from the spouse's membership record can cause problems.

It's nice to know that ward clerks can contact MLS support to have a marriage record suppressed. But if the Directory simply showed nonmember records from MLS, there would be no need for that mechanism at all -- you'd save a lot of phone calls (and the vast majority of ward clerks have no idea that this is even an option).

jdcr256 wrote:The requirement for the online directory is to accurately represent the household record. If the husband's name is on the marriage record in MLS, the requirement is to display it in the online directory.

I would think that having the ward lists match (whether printed from MLS or from the website) would be of higher importance. The data from a MLS sourced ward list should be as accurate as a online directory sourced ward list.

Aaron Z

I guess the outcome of this thread is that if I don't want non-member spouse information to show up on the online ward directory I have to call SLC to have marriage information suppressed???

Is this problem being addressed by those who have the power to fix it?

I now have a list of people that have asked me why their non-member spouse is listed on the online ward directory. They adamantly want the non-member spouse's name removed.

Not to mention the conversations with confused members "I did not know so and so was a member?" "No, he isn't a member." "Yes he is. His name is on the ward directory." "Yes I know but that does not mean that he is a member." "Then why is he on the ward directory if he is not a member?" "Uhhhh .. good question." BTW the last time I had this conversation was with my bishop. Basically it is confusing everyone who comes across it.

pzells wrote:I now have a list of people that have asked me why their non-member spouse is listed on the online ward directory. They adamantly want the non-member spouse's name removed.

I'd suggest that you call Local Unit Support and work with them on that. It appears to be our only option at the moment.

pzells wrote:Not to mention the conversations with confused members "I did not know so and so was a member?" "No, he isn't a member." "Yes he is. His name is on the ward directory." "Yes I know but that does not mean that he is a member." "Then why is he on the ward directory if he is not a member?" "Uhhhh .. good question." BTW the last time I had this conversation was with my bishop. Basically it is confusing everyone who comes across it.

I certainly can understand why some members would not want a nonmember spouse listed. But it really shouldn't be confusing. In our ward and stake we have all sorts of nonmember spouses who are happy to be listed. After all, they are a spouse. I could easily see how it could be confusing if the spouse were not listed, prompting conversations like "I thought she was married...." "But if she's married, why is no spouse listed?" "Uhhhh ... good question." We even have one nonmember who is more active than his member wife!

But in any case, we need to have both options to respect the wishes of the people involved -- but other members really shouldn't be confused either way.

I will call Local Unit Support to resolve this problem.

aebrown wrote:But it really shouldn't be confusing. In our ward and stake we have all sorts of nonmember spouses who are happy to be listed. After all, they are a spouse. I could easily see how it could be confusing if the spouse were not listed, prompting conversations like "I thought she was married...." "But if she's married, why is no spouse listed?" "Uhhhh ... good question." We even have one nonmember who is more active than his member wife!

But in any case, we need to have both options to respect the wishes of the people involved -- but other members really shouldn't be confused either way.

I completely agree that an option to include or not include non-member spouses in the online directory should be included. This option would solve the problems related to this issue.

The problem with the online ward directory is that it is a member directory. I wonder how many members know that non-members are listed in the online member directory. I don't think that many realize that outside of some clerks and leaders. Also the online directory does not provide a good way of determining the member status of those listed. You said that confusion may arise if a non-member spouse is not listed because other members may see that think that the member (married to a non-member) is single. True this scenario can occur, but it would only arise if the fact that the online member directory includes non-members is known. I am not convinced that this fact is known by the majority of members.

Also I think that it is necessary to know who in the directory is a member. It can save awkward experiences from assuming everyone in the directory can create.

In the case of my ward, the members that do not want their non-member spouses listed on the online directory are active and their spouses are either semi-participatory in the church or at least on good terms with the church. These non-member spouses want their decision to remain outside of the church to be respected by their member spouses and the church. Their member spouses are concerned that listing their names will appear to be breech on this trust/respect. In other words, the concern is that listing non-member spouses will hamper missionary work with these non-members. Unfortunately I have several couples that have come to me with this predicament.

Hello there, I am a new member of the church. In January of this year myself and two of my children were baptized. The information gathered prior to our baptisms included data about my estranged husband on all three records, as we are still married and he is the father of my children. I understand why his name would appear on the church records. I do not agree with it appearing in the online directory.

He has not ever resided in my current home. He is not a member, and never has been a member. At this time his name is listed as the head of our household. This is very painful to me, as he abandoned our family, after the birth of my youngest child, and we have not seen him since 2004. In addition, my daughter's name is spelled incorrectly.

Our record is not an accurate portrayal of my family composition, and I want this data corrected. It is very important to me. To date, I have spoken with our bishop, ward clerk, and someone who handles the database in our church. None of these individuals were able to make the correction. I also emailed support who stated that I had to talk with the clerk. In addition, I spoke with our stake clerk, at the advice of our stake president's wife, and he stated that everything appears correct in the MLS system. However, it is not correct in the online stake directory.

I have noted that other women in our ward who are single or have husbands who are not members, do not have their husband's names listed. I can tell by the length of this thread that dates all the way back to 2009, this is an ongoing issue. I'm hopeful someone can provide some support so that this information can be corrected.

I am very frustrated by this inaccuracy and have had no success getting a resolution. If someone could please assist with this concern it would be greatly appreciated.

rnphong wrote:I am very frustrated by this inaccuracy and have had no success getting a resolution. If someone could please assist with this concern it would be greatly appreciated.

This forum is primarily user-to-user type of help. As such, we don't have the ability to fix your membership information. Only the clerk(s) in your Ward/Stake have dominion over your membership records. Some of us have tried to "fix the system" but so far have not been successful in convincing anyone that a change is needed.

So far the advice we've gotten is to have your ward clerk call Local Unit Support and keep on them until they fix it.

Failing that, I'm not sure what else to suggest other then a strongly worded letter sent to the legal department.

rnphong wrote:The information gathered prior to our baptisms included data about my estranged husband on all three records, as we are still married and he is the father of my children.

In post #30 a Church employee suggests having the marriage record suppressed. This may take more than just one phone call from the ward clerk. If the phone calls do not work then a letter from the bishop to the records department may be necessary.

RussellHltn wrote:This forum is primarily user-to-user type of help. As such, we don't have the ability to fix your membership information. Only the clerk(s) in your Ward/Stake have dominion over your membership records. Some of us have tried to "fix the system" but so far have not been successful in convincing anyone that a change is needed.

So far the advice we've gotten is to have your ward clerk call Local Unit Support and keep on them until they fix it.

Failing that, I'm not sure what else to suggest other then a strongly worded letter sent to the legal department.

She might try contacting the Church Data Privacy Officer: dataprivacyofficer@ldschurch.org. Better yet, seek the counsel of her stake president, and ask him to contact that office. Having suggested that avenue, I cannot promise that it will solve the problem. With the concurrence of my bishop, I already tried reporting this to issue to the privacy office almost a year ago.

This good sister is certainly not alone. About 10 percent of the households in our ward are affected by this issue (having non-member spouse listed in the directory without permission, including those who do not belong to the actual household in MLS).

Given the way the software works today, her only immediate recourse is to log into the website directory herself and suppress the display of her entire household. Or ask her ward clerk to do so. Unfortunately, this action will make it impossible for most members of the unit to find her family's listing online at all.

BTW, I have never been able to understand how this online directory, as implemented, complies with the Church Handbook 2, which says in part:

21.1.15 Directories

Stake and ward directories may be published according to the following instructions:

Names, addresses and phone numbers may be included in a directory only if they are listed in a commercial telephone directory or, if they are unlisted, if the member gives permisssion.

Thank you for your replies thus far. I did contact 801-240-3500, which was mentioned earlier in this thread. I talked with an initial representative who was not able to assist. I reached him by entering 0 when the automated system did not offer an option for the support that I needed. He said he could change my last name if I wanted, which I don't because I am using my legal name. Then he stated the removal of my nonmember husband from the online entry was beyond is capability and placed me on hold. I then spoke to someone else, who also stated he was unable to make such corrections. He filled out a form and told me it may be two weeks before I hear any reply. I have experience with databases, and this kind of a repair generally only takes a minute or two. It is really unfortunate that no one is able to help.

I did make our family entry private so that only administrators can view it. I did also discuss this matter with our Stake President's wife. After talking with her husband, she referred me to the Stake Clerk, who stated all was well in MLS. He has never accessed lds.org and said he had no idea how to fix the online directory entry.

I would follow up with the Data Privacy Officer at DataPrivacyOfficer@ldschurch.org because I think that is where the most effective influence will come. This is a serious matter in most other countries and the Church is scrambling to deal with it. In the United States, there seems to be less of an understanding of these things, and the laws are certainly less stringent.

I recommend that the member e-mail the Data Privacy Officer with specific information and request a prompt response. The office has a published response time of 30 days, whether or not they are able to resolve the matter.

I also suggest she continue to suppress her family information, and that if the members ask why, she indicate that the Church is unable to solve some privacy issues at this time, and when they do, she will allow her information to be displayed. If her leaders ask why, she should tell them, and enlist their assistance in solving the problem so they will be better able to function in their callings.

It is perfectly normal for the stake president to refer this matter the stake clerk, but I get the impression from this thread that the stake clerk does not really understand the issue or what to do about it. On the other hand, if the stake clerk was up to speed, he could then invite the stake president to pursue the matter. I believe this would also result in a more expeditious response from those who should be working this issue at lds.org but who are swamped and do not seem to have the right priority on this problem.

I am sure the programmers will get with it as soon as they receive the proper direction.

My record is now correct, and it only took me a few weeks. I am very happy with the outcome.

rnphong wrote:My record is now correct, and it only took me a few weeks. I am very happy with the outcome.

That's good news, and it's good of you to report back. Several suggestions were made in this thread, so it's not obvious what may have solved your issue. It might help others who may read this thread if you could share what process finally corrected your record. Was it your contact with your stake clerk? ward clerk? the Data Privacy Officer? Local Unit Support?

I contacted MLS support at (801) 240-3500. I pressed zero at the prompt. I then talked to someone who completed a request to suppress my husband's name from the record. He said it could take a few weeks, but was accomplished within two days.

rnphong wrote:I contacted MLS support at (801) 240-3500. I pressed zero at the prompt. I then talked to someone who completed a request to suppress my husband's name from the record. He said it could take a few weeks, but was accomplished within two days.

I am glad that the solution satisfies this sister's particular need. But from the standpoint of local clerks and leaders, I am left wondering exactly what this action -- originally suggested by the moderator in a previous comment -- does.

What does "to have the marriage record suppressed" mean, if anything, beyond just suppressing display of the non-member spouse's name in the online directory? The behavior of the directory, and only that, is really the focus of this thread. Which makes the broad wording of that suggestion seem odd. Is the actual marriage record suppressed from display in a Member Record or IOS? Is the marriage status changed? Is anything in MLS affected, or only the website?

If the couple is seperated or not living in the same household with the rest of the family the Bishop or ward clerk contact's Local Unit Support (855-537-4357) and we can have the husband/wife listing on lds.org removed. The marriage information in MLS is what is driving lds.org to list the husband and wife

I finally got to experience this in practice today. A sister in my ward asked to have her husband's name removed from the online directory. Her husband is not a member and does not live with her.

I called (855-537-4357) and navigated the menu to Local Unit Support. When I told them the problem, they first suggested I do a membership refresh in MLS. I told them about this thread on the forum and kteubank's instructions to call. I was put on hold for a short time, then they asked for the name of the member, the name of her husband, my name, unit number, and telephone number. They told me they would forward this to the appropriate department and they would call me if they needed any additional information.

I plan to keep my eye on the directory over the next few days to see if there is any change.

I got a call back from Local Unit Support today. The analyst who spoke to me had two questions: (1) Is this sister divorced or still currently married? and (2) Is the husband living at the same address?

I thought I gave him that information with my first call, but I answered his questions and he told me he would have "the developers" remove the spouse from the online directory. I printed copies of the Membership Record and Individual Ordinance Summary so I could see if any changes were made on them when the online directory entry was fixed.

I will report back when this is all done.

I'm back. An analyst from Local Unit Support called me again today to report that the non-member spouse has finally been suppressed from appearing in the online directory. As I had hoped, this does not appear to affect the Membership Record or Individual Ordinance Summary in any way.

I am still seeing non-member's spouses show up in the directory as of today in the lds.org/directory. I don't think this issue has been resolved still? Also, I see a head of household husband listed who I believe is deceased? What do you do if a member is currently married to a non-member and you want to keep track of the marriage (i.e. keep it in MLS), but not have it show up online? Is there a way to do this? Help! It seems crazy that it's been over 2 years now and this issue still hasn't been resolved?

atom88 wrote:I am still seeing non-member's spouses show up in the directory as of today in the lds.org/directory. I don't think this issue has been resolved still? Also, I see a head of household husband listed who I believe is deceased? What do you do if a member is currently married to a non-member and you want to keep track of the marriage (i.e. keep it in MLS), but not have it show up online? Is there a way to do this? Help! It seems crazy that it's been over 2 years now and this issue still hasn't been resolved?

If you review other posts in this topic, you'll see that you can work with Local Unit Support to remove a particular nonmember spouse that you don't want displayed. That's the way to resolve this issue.

As for your other question about a deceased spouse, please post a new topic -- it's not helpful to raise multiple issues in a single post (and it's against the Code of Conduct, too).

So, there's no way for a website administrator or a ward clerk to do it online? If that is the case is this feature something that could be considered for an enhancement / upgrade in the next release?

atom88 wrote:So, there's no way for a website administrator or a ward clerk to do it online?

That's correct.

atom88 wrote:If that is the case is this feature something that could be considered for an enhancement / upgrade in the next release?

If you'd like to make that suggestion, feel free to use the Submit Feedback link on LDS.org. I really doubt something like this would make it into the very next release, but it might well be considered for some future release. But you can always hope!

atom88 wrote:I am still seeing non-member's spouses show up in the directory as of today in the lds.org/directory. I don't think this issue has been resolved still?

What do you define as resolved? There is a procedure reported in this thread to call MLS Support to have a nonmember spouse name suppressed from being displayed. The direction from the Priesthood Department is to have the Directory reflect the member's marriage records. Getting the Brethren to change this direction is going to take considerably more than what has been discussed in this thread. So while many community members posting in this thread agree there is an inconsistency in displaying nonmember spouse information with the Handbook guidance, there is no indication to date there is any change in the direction from the Brethren. The ability to have an individual visibility setting in addition to a household visibility setting has not been released yet. If and when that will happen is unknown.

atom88 wrote:Also, I see a head of household husband listed who I believe is deceased?

The ward clerk or the assistant ward membership clerk should update the individual membership record after verifying the death. A member married to a deceased nonmember should have the marriage terminated due to death of the nonmember spouse. The individual membership record for a deceased member should be updated to reflect the death.

atom88 wrote:What do you do if a member is currently married to a non-member and you want to keep track of the marriage (i.e. keep it in MLS), but not have it show up online? Is there a way to do this?

That has been discussed previously in this thread. See this post.

jdlessley: so you're saying you have some inside knowledge of why the online directory was coded this way? I presume you're one of the developer's on the website? The reason being that "the priesthood department" whatever that is, has directed the programmers to always display what's in the marriage record (regardless of whether or not they are married to a non-member) in the online directory?

I wonder if "the priesthood department" realizes that this business rule in the code is causing non-members to show up on the online directory? Has someone from the website developers / engineer's group explained this problem to "the priesthood department"? Could be a simple miscommunication or mis-understanding of how this gets implemented on the website?

Perhaps a better business rule / logic would be for the exception where the marriage record contains a non-member spouse? Or at least allowing for the website privacy settings to turn this feature on or off?

atom88 wrote:jdlessley: so you're saying you have some inside knowledge of why the online directory was coded this way? I presume you're one of the developer's on the website?

No, jdlessley is not one of the developers on the website. He is a volunteer who helps out here at the Forum. And it does not require inside knowledge to know why the online directory was coded the way it is.

atom88 wrote:The reason being that "the priesthood department" whatever that is,

The Priesthood Department is responsible for many areas of the Church, including curriculum, the LDS.org website, and a host of other things. The department takes its direction from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. They program according to instructions that they receive from the Brethren. Members of the Quorums of the Seventy also direct the work under their supervision and direction.

atom88 wrote:I wonder if "the priesthood department" realizes

As members, we would communicate things we believe headquarters does not realize through our bishops and stake presidents. Depending on the subject matter, the stake president confers with the chairman of his Coordinating Council (an Area Seventy), with a member of the Presidency of the Seventy (in North America), or on some specific matters directly with the Quorum of the Twelve or the First Presidency.

In this particular matter at hand, I do not know how far up the chain the issue has risen, but I do know it is into the ranks of the General Authorities. What they ultimately decide to do will be up to them.

It is an important enough matter, however, that Local Unit Support has a method of resolving this issue on a case by case basis that clerks can use where necessary, at least for the moment.

atom88 wrote:Perhaps a better business rule / logic would be for the exception where the marriage record contains a non-member spouse? Or at least allowing for the website privacy settings to turn this feature on or off?

There is a work-around presented to us for the immediate need to remove nonmember spouse names from the Directory. There is evidence from this post that there are at least discussions addressing a long term solution. Your second suggestion appears to be one of the options discussed. But what the long term solution will be is uncertain. Until then our only two options are as noted in this post.

I think the correct procedure, and most important, is to have accuracy in records. By this I mean marriages should be recorded on the record, whether or not the spouse is a member. And if I had to guess I would guess that the Brethren are looking at it the same way. Remember we are not creating records only for earth life but for all eternity and they must be accurate.

Gary_Miller wrote:I think the correct procedure, and most important, is to have accuracy in records. By this I mean marriages should be recorded on the record, whether or not the spouse is a member.

I agree. It is not a recording issue.

It is a display issue. I do not believe unwanted or undesirable information should be displayed on the web site where it will be detrimental to the other spouse. Several egregious examples have been mentioned earlier in this topic.

On the other hand, some are perfectly happy to have their spouses listed, even though they are not members.

The solution I recommend is that the member or clerk be able to toggle the display at the web site. Right now, the only way to toggle it is to make a special request to LUS to have the display suppressed.

lajackson wrote:The solution I recommend is that the member or clerk be able to toggle the display at the web site. Right now, the only way to toggle it is to make a special request to LUS to have the display suppressed.

The way I'd like to see it work is to reflect the presence/absence of a record for the spouse. If someone wants the spouse to show, create a non-member record for them. If not, then delete it. That also makes the MLS print-outs match the lds directory. And puts full control in the hands of the clerk(s).

I short, I want to see it go back to the way it was.

This issue has been reported to the leadership of the Membership department. The Directory website displays information using the guidelines and rules set forth by the department. Once they have determined the best solution to this issue, the directory team will honor their decision.

terrydm wrote:This issue has been reported to the leadership of the Membership department.

Excellent. Thanks for the feedback.

I also have sent feedback on this issue. It is serious enough that all access should be suppressed until it is fixed. Simply put -- take the directory offline until spouses without a MLS record in the same unit (member or non-member) are no longer displayed. Does anyone have the oomph to get this done?

kalong71 wrote:I also have sent feedback on this issue. It is serious enough that all access should be suppressed until it is fixed. Simply put -- take the directory offline until spouses without a MLS record in the same unit (member or non-member) are no longer displayed. Does anyone have the oomph to get this done?

No one here at the Forum has that authority. And, in my opinion, I would not recommend it for these three reasons.

There is a process already in place to suppress the few names that should be hidden. Many desire to have their spouses who are not members listed in the directory.

The display is limited. Only members of the stake with proper LDS Access credentials are able to view the information. The information is not generally available outside a small subset of stake members.

The directory provides a great benefit to leaders and members. There is no reason to remove that resource, especially when there is a method in place to deal with this issue as needed.

Yes, as with some other things, it will be nice when the clerks do not have to worry about this issue. I am confident that time will come. But we do not set the priorities of the developers.

Bro. Jackson, Thanks for the feedback. I agree, but this really should be fixed. You stated there is a process already in place. Is that contacting LUS on a name by name basis as you stated in an earlier reply? Or is there some other way to get this done? Cheers for you long standing service to us clerks! Kevin.

kalong71 wrote:You stated there is a process already in place. Is that contacting LUS on a name by name basis as you stated in an earlier reply?

Correct.

This is apparently still not fixed. In MLS, the member's marriage information is recorded. However, her nonmember spouse is not listed as part of the household. The household record lists only the member. However, lds.org lists both the husband and the wife. I'm not sure this was really thought through.

rebowes wrote:This is apparently still not fixed.

No one said that there was any general "fix" to this issue; what you can do is contact Local Unit Support on an individual basis to request that a nonmember spouse will no longer be shown in the Directory on LDS.org.

rebowes wrote:In MLS, the member's marriage information is recorded. However, her nonmember spouse is not listed as part of the household. The household record lists only the member. However, lds.org lists both the husband and the wife.

If you read this entire topic (yes, I know it's rather long ), you'll see that what you describe here is exactly how it works for everyone. The presence of a nonmember spouse in the marriage information on a member's membership record is sufficient to cause the nonmember spouse to appear on the Directory on LDS.org.

rebowes wrote:I'm not sure this was really thought through.

You are welcome to submit feedback using the Submit Feedback link on LDS.org if you would like to suggest that it should work a different way.

Hsi hsi ha ha! That's Chinese laughter for the "long" comment. However, I have submitted feedback on lds.org about this problem -- which rebowes restated. MLS does not show a non-member spouse on various reports, but lds.org does show the non-member spouse. This is very disconcerting to some of the members who no longer live with their spouse. The default on lds.org should to not list the non-member spouse unless a non-member record is created in MLS or the member selects an option to show the non-member spouse in lds.org.

Is there a way to verify that this info has been received and noted by the programmers/leaders at lds.org? Thanks Brother Brown for your on-going service to us clerks!!!

kalong71 wrote:Is there a way to verify that this info has been received and noted by the programmers/leaders at lds.org?

There's no way to proactively verify that it has been received, but the standard procedure is for you to receive an email thanking you for your feedback. However, I have received that email anywhere from 1 week to 8 months later, so I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for that response....

kalong71 wrote:This is very disconcerting to some of the members who no longer live with their spouse.

I find it amusing to think that members expect the programmers to think of every possible situation and program to their individual needs. On one hand members married to non-members what there marriage recorded on their record and some what the name to show in the directory. On the other hand they don't want the marriage to show on their record because they don't want their non-member spouse to possibly be bothered by the church, but they want their record to show their married. In order for the records to be orderly it just can't be both ways. It logical that a members record would have their marriage added to show that they are married and for genealogical reasons as well.

Further more the on line directory is just that a directory of members and their families members in living in their household. This includes non member spouses who are part of the household. However, program has to pull the data from some where and logic says the best place to pull the data for non-member spouses would be from the member spouses record where the marriage is recorded.

And I can see where there could be a problem for separated couples who are still married, as the non-member spouse is currently no longer a member of the Household. Short of creating a non-member record when the marriage is recorded, which would cause other problems, there is just no other logical place to pull the data.

There has to be a standard as it can't be one way for some and another for others. Ether the non-member spouse shows up in the directory without having to create a non-member record or they don't show up in the directory. Its just the way things are based on the choices made by the individuals involved.

kalong71 wrote:The default on lds.org should to not list the non-member spouse unless a non-member record is created in MLS or the member selects an option to show the non-member spouse in lds.org.

As a clerk I do not want to be creating and managing a munch of non-member records. However, I do see the merit of the member being able to select an option to not show the non-member spouse on the on-line directory. That way its a household choice and the clerks don't have to do anything.

I just don't think this "feature" was thought through very well. Translation for programmers: You didn't have enough "use" cases.

I have created a handful of non-member records, specifically so they would show up in MLS reports. If there isn't a record, they don't show up in MLS reports. lds.org should function the same. I shouldn't need to call SL every time I need to hide a non-member's information.

I also want to make sure marriage information is correct. Single adults are defined as those over 30 that are not married (all divorces are final). If I don't include the marriage information, then the member will appear to be a single adult and show up in those reports inappropriately.

To further frustrate the issue on lds.org, not only is the spouse information taken from the marriage information with no regard to whether the individual is listed in the household, but I can't hide the information. I can make the whole household private, which removes everyone in the household from online reports except for stake and ward leaders. I can also hide individual members (make their records private). However, I CANNOT make non-member spouses private.

If someone would point me to where I can provide feedback to the programmers, then I would gladly do so.

rebowes wrote:To further frustrate the issue on lds.org, not only is the spouse information taken from the marriage information with no regard to whether the individual is listed in the household, but I can't hide the information. I can make the whole household private, which removes everyone in the household from online reports except for stake and ward leaders. I can also hide individual members (make their records private). However, I CANNOT make non-member spouses private.

If someone would point me to where I can provide feedback to the programmers, then I would gladly do so.

In my response to you here, I answered both of your above questions; I explained how to hide the non-member spouse information and how to provide feedback.

rebowes wrote:I have created a handful of non-member records, specifically so they would show up in MLS reports. If there isn't a record, they don't show up in MLS reports. lds.org should function the same. I shouldn't need to call SL every time I need to hide a non-member's information.

I think the problem is that the non-member records are a local thing. They are only in your MLS and not available at CHQ, so lds.org can't use them.

JonesRK wrote:I think the problem is that the non-member records are a local thing. They are only in your MLS and not available at CHQ, so lds.org can't use them.

IIRC, Directory 1.0 functioned as expected. I don't remember any complaints until Directory 2.0.

russellhltn wrote:

JonesRK wrote:I think the problem is that the non-member records are a local thing. They are only in your MLS and not available at CHQ, so lds.org can't use them.

IIRC, Directory 1.0 functioned as expected. I don't remember any complaints until Directory 2.0.

If by "as expected" you mean that nonmember spouses didn't appear in Directory 1.x, then that's correct.

But no version of Directory has ever been affected by nonmember records in MLS. The change that happened with Directory 2.0 is that nonmember spouses started appearing based on the marriage information on the member record.

aebrown wrote:If by "as expected" you mean that nonmember spouses didn't appear in Directory 1.x, then that's correct.

Yes, I went though the history of the Wiki and the LUWS section. I did find that out-of-unit members did not appear. I have to infer that non-members didn't appear on-line either. But I find it interesting that the issue of non-members was never brought up in the Wiki, nor can I find any thread in the LUWS section that talked about how to get a non-member to appear. So it seems the issue never came up (or at least was rare). Yet this thread is very long.

To me, the two biggest issues are:
- Control over non-members appearing isn't under direct control of the local clerk.
- Control over non-members appearing doesn't seem to be under the direct control of LUS - it seems they have to pass a message to the developers.

It would be nice if the appearance non-members was based on the creation of a non-member record in MLS (and this will be required if on-line is to take over all areas of MLS), but something should have been added to put it under control of the local clerks instead of "magically" adding them.

russellhltn wrote:To me, the two biggest issues are:
- Control over non-members appearing isn't under direct control of the local clerk.
- Control over non-members appearing doesn't seem to be under the direct control of LUS - it seems they have to pass a message to the developers.

I certainly agree with the first issue.

But I don't recall hearing about the second issue at all (although it could be that my memory is bad and I'm just not doing a good search). In any case, that seems to me to be a rather minor issue -- as long as we as clerks know that contacting LUS will fix the issue for a particular nonmember spouse, it makes no difference who actually makes the change (as long as it is done accurately and reasonably promptly).

Well, I am glad to see that some conversation is being generated by this issue. The main problem is with people who are separated, but not divorced. They simply do not want people to call asking for their spouse who doesn't even live there anymore.

As for the "as expected" comment. I think that is a fair statement since for nearly 20 years, as I remember, the clerks did not have to worry about this situation at all. MLS simply did not include the "spouse of record" in any report or list. So it seems an oversight for these individuals to now be listed in the on-line reports and lists.

I hope that, in addition, to submitting "feedback" some of you who have contact with the developers will help elevate this issue -- for it is a real issue to those spouses who are often at a very vulnerable point in their lives. Receiving such calls from well meaning church members can be very painful.

And... calling LUS for every individual instance seems like such a waste of precious resources, not to mention tithing dollars.

Thanks everyone for all you do!

Elder Kevin Long, New York New York North Mission.

kalong71 wrote:As for the "as expected" comment. I think that is a fair statement since for nearly 20 years, as I remember, the clerks did not have to worry about this situation at all. MLS simply did not include the "spouse of record" in any report or list. So it seems an oversight for these individuals to now be listed in the on-line reports and lists.

I hope that, in addition, to submitting "feedback" some of you who have contact with the developers will help elevate this issue -- for it is a real issue to those spouses who are often at a very vulnerable point in their lives.

As already indicated by one of the developers in a post a year and a half ago this was not an oversight but a requirement given to the developers. So talking to the developers about it isn't going to change anything. Any decision to change to either the default behavior or to expend effort to put this under the control of the clerks will have to come from those general authorities in the Priesthood department who have responsibility over these systems. If your stake president feels it is important enough he can talk to his priesthood leaders to provide more direct feedback.

Thanks again. I have been out of the loop I guess. I will see what I can do via the priesthood. Cheers.

Three years later and counting from the last post. Still have to perform the manual procedure?

devinfarmer wrote:Three years later and counting from the last post. Still have to perform the manual procedure?

Yes, you still have to contact LUS.