Standing in Sacrament Meeting to Sing Hymns

I recall somewhere we are not to stand for any Hymn but the National Anthem of teh country we are in. I cannot recall where heard this but I found instructions in the Hymn book relating to this subject. Can anyone shead any light on this subject?

Friarpooh wrote:I recall somewhere we are not to stand for any Hymn but the National Anthem of the country we are in. I cannot recall where heard this but I found instructions in the Hymn book relating to this subject. Can anyone shed any light on this subject?

This was discussed last year in the thread Sacrament Meeting Music. Although various opinions are mentioned in that thread, the quotes from the Hymn book (which are quoted in that thread) seem to be the only written documentation anyone could reference. If you are in a calling where you need an answer to this question, you should consult with your local priesthood leaders.

Here we stand for intermediate hymn. It's an old fashion coming from afternoon Sacrament Meeting SM starting from 17:00 till 18:30 (old member must remeber it).
Now SM is only ten minutes past hour but we still appreciate a bit rest from sitting all the time.

Friarpooh wrote:I recall somewhere we are not to stand for any Hymn but the National Anthem of teh country we are in. I cannot recall where heard this but I found instructions in the Hymn book relating to this subject. Can anyone shead any light on this subject?

(This is a personal comment, not a moderator action.)

This is not written and may be more indicative than authoritative:

Several years ago (I don't remember how many), one of the Twelve (I think it may have been Elder Scott) spoke at a CES Fireside at BYU Provo. As the closing hymn started, most everyone stood. The speaker (again, I think it was Elder Scott) stood, took the pulpit, and lovingly but firmly instructed that the practice of standing for a closing hymn was not to be done. He instructed that we should watch the First Presidency and the Twelve--that if/when we see them stand for hymns, we should do likewise but not until. He may have also mentioned something about not walking back to Missouri until we see the Twelve doing so.

rmrichesjr wrote:(This is a personal comment, not a moderator action.)

This is not written and may be more indicative than authoritative

Ditto

rmrichesjr wrote:The speaker (again, I think it was Elder Scott) stood, took the pulpit, and lovingly but firmly instructed that the practice of standing for a closing hymn was not to be done.

I remember the same fireside. I looked in the CES Fireside archives, but it appears to have only the talks, not the entire broadcast.

Likewise, I can't remember the time frame, but I'm fairly sure it was over 5 years ago. I'd probably start my search closer to 2000. Nor I can I be certain who the speaker was. It was memorable since he took the pulpit between the closing hymn and the prayer - most unusual. I also remember him saying that one of his roles is to correct errors in the church.

Your allowed to be an independent thinker, just as long as your Priesthood leadership agrees that it fulfills the guideline of the First Presidency.

I think also what is important here, as the church grows, and new converts bring in many of the idea, trends and cultures from previous religious experiences, we need to lovingly, and gently guide these new members as to the do and don't of the church.

The missionary program of the Church as it sit now, is generating a large numbers of converts. In my own ward we have already met our years baptism goal, and have been blessed with almost perfect activity from those new members.

So when you say, follow the lead of our church leaders, your dead on.

Thanks for all the comments.

rmrichesjr wrote:Several years ago (I don't remember how many), one of the Twelve . . . spoke at a CES Fireside at BYU Provo. As the closing hymn started, most everyone stood. The speaker . . . stood, took the pulpit, and lovingly but firmly instructed that the practice of standing for a closing hymn was not to be done. He instructed that we should watch the First Presidency and the Twelve--that if/when we see them stand for hymns, we should do likewise but not until.

It was Elder Ballard.

In any meeting, if the presiding officer stands for the hymn, feel free to do so. It will usually be either an intermediate hymn at a stake conference, or the national anthem. But, there are other times and places. Just watch the fellow who is presiding.

rmrichesjr wrote: He may have also mentioned something about not walking back to Missouri until we see the Twelve doing so.

I do not remember him saying that, but my memory should not be considered a good source for . . . what was it I was going to say? [grin]

The choir director in the MTC reminded us every week:

"We do not stand for the hymns of Zion, unless directed to do so."

I think this was oft repeated because missionaries had a tendency to stand during "Called to Serve," which made for some chaos. The last time the MTC fielded a choir to General Conference he was still there and he was in the Called to Serve movie, so most missionaries in the last several years will probably remember that advice (I was there for 12 weeks, so I heard it more often than some, though).

During a 4th of July Devotional a missionary stood while we sang a patriotic song (It might have been the national anthem, but I'm not sure). He stood for what seemed like forever and nobody followed, presumably because they all knew the choir directors stance on standing. I assume it was a new missionary, or a particularly patriotic one. Eventually he sat down. It was an interesting spectacle.

Long story short: I think that standing is great in meetings (don't they stand during General Conference congregational hymns?) as long as it is done in an orderly way.

ComradeH wrote:"We do not stand for the hymns of Zion, unless directed to do so."

Good advice for the congregation. But the question is who authorized it? The written instructions indicates it's to come from the Priesthood, but I'll bet there's been a few cases of the chorister taking authority unto him/herself. I think that's behind a few incidents.

ComradeH wrote:(don't they stand during General Conference congregational hymns?)

It appears traditional to stand for the hymn at the midpoint of a two hour conference.

I like to stand to sing the intermediate hymn - so if the chorrister doesn't gesture to the congregation to stand, then I just stand up instead

dannykos wrote:I like to stand to sing the intermediate hymn - so if the chorrister doesn't gesture to the congregation to stand, then I just stand up instead

You may be standing alone! And that usually works for stake conferences.

Our stake president has asked that we not stand for intermediate hymns in sacrament meetings, so around here, we don't. But that only applies around here.

lajackson wrote:You may be standing alone!

as it happens - as soon as I stand, then my counsellors do, and then everyone else does… not necessarily as 'smooth' as having the congregation stand en masse, but effective all the same.

In our stake, standing in Sacrament Meeting is widely known to be against policy. Of course, I've recently learned that stake-specific policies can be very common. For example, also in our stake, we do not use bells to indicate the end of Relief Society/Priesthood meetings or Sunday School classes. As far as I know, the Stake President personally instituted the policy when he was listening to an instructor wrapping up a lesson with a testimony and the obtrusive bell completely destroyed the moment.

(Rather than distract from the current topic, I'm going to start a new thread to discuss the use of "school bells" in the meetinghouse.)

I think I posted it in a previous thread, but during a stake presidency training meeting with the Area President in my last stake, The Area President quoted Pres. Packer saying that standing for intermediate hymns is only appropriate if the meeting is scheduled for 2 hours or longer (thus inappropriate for Sac. Meetings).

At this point an offhand question raise up.
Why?

dannykos wrote:as it happens - as soon as I stand, then my counsellors do,

Wise counselors. And since you have counselors, it would appear that you also have some say about the standing and sitting that goes on during the meeting. [grin]

lajackson wrote:Wise counselors. And since you have counselors, it would appear that you also have some say about the standing and sitting that goes on during the meeting. [grin]

maybe…

You are right about the instruction in the hymnbook allowing for the congregation to stand. The instruction about not standing during the intermediate hymn came to our stake from a GA giving instructions to stake presidents. That was a verbal. I haven't seen anything in writing to confirm that, but we continue to follow the verbal guidance of our line authorities. We may or may not see that addressed in the new CHOIs that are coming out in November.

I'm really surprise.
Where is the old good teaching from Joseph Smith: "We teach them the right principles and let them to act accordingly" (or something like that!
It seem to me that we are practicing: "We ask them to act as we want and let them to gess the principles":o

Sacrament meeting and stake conf. are under the direction of the presiding authority. if they stand for a hymn, then you stand. If they do not then you don't. Several choristers have had have this explained to them, and I am sure that several more in the future will need this instruction as well.

In one of our Stake Conferences a few years ago, the visiting General Authority, one of the Seventy, sorry, I don't remember his name, instructed Stake and Ward leaders that the decision to stand during a hymn is up to the presiding authority, not the choir director or any one else. If there is to be standing during a hymn, it should be approved in advance by the presiding authority, and the director will then signal the congregation to stand at the appropriate time.
He also said that if we don't see the presiding authority stand, we should not, either, regardless of what the director does.

It’s not an answer to the original question, but it’s kind of on topic. Yesterday I walked past the chapel in my ward’s meetinghouse and the ward that shares our building was singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” for their opening hymn and no one was standing. My most recent former bishop (to whom I was a counselor) and his wife were standing in the hall watching in disbelief. He asked me, “Aren’t they supposed to be standing?” I told him, “According to U.S. Code they are.” I posted on the stake’s Facebook page about my disappointment at seeing the anthem being sung in a ward with nobody standing. Of course, a couple of people defended it, even after I pointed out 36 U.S. Code §301.

I’m just going to say that I’m a U.S. Army veteran and whether it’s an opening hymn, a rest hymn, or a closing hymn, and regardless of whether the presiding authority stands, I will absolutely stand whenever the national anthem is sung in any meeting for as long my legs allow. I did it once many years ago, and my wife feels the same way.

Terry Sackett
Bishopric 2nd Counselor
Desert Inn Ward
Las Vegas Nevada East Stake

terrysackett wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:32 pm Yesterday I walked past the chapel in my ward’s meetinghouse and the ward that shares our building was singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” for their opening hymn and no one was standing. My most recent former bishop (to whom I was a counselor) and his wife were standing in the hall watching in disbelief.

The Hymnbook itself says that "members may stand for national anthems in church meetings, according to local custom and priesthood direction." As my father said in the hallway of a meetinghouse one Sunday, I strapped my rear end to a parachute for 24 years so that you could have the privilege of doing that. And he did not use the term rear end.

I would have stood, anticipating that the bishop and the rest of the congregation would follow suit. If the bishop does not want to stand in sacrament meeting they should sing America the Beautiful or My Country, 'Tis of Thee.

Then again, I got shot at for the privilege of saying what I just said.

lajackson wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:33 pm ...

Then again, I got shot at for the privilege of saying what I just said.

And, the rest of us are grateful to your and your father for your work and service!

It will be interesting when the "global hymnbook" finally comes out, to see what instruction it contains regarding national anthems. It may be that the continual move towards a global church gently puts this tradition to rest, or it may be that it reinforces the ability to sing national anthems during church meetings. There's many traditions I've enjoyed in the past that are not part of current church policy -- I'm hoping this one remains, it's a wonderful reminder of the unity we should all feel for the country we live in, regardless of where that might be. But we'll see where the Church goes in a year or two.

BrianEdwards wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:41 am It will be interesting when the "global hymnbook" finally comes out, to see what instruction it contains regarding national anthems. It may be that the continual move towards a global church gently puts this tradition to rest, or it may be that it reinforces the ability to sing national anthems during church meetings. There's many traditions I've enjoyed in the past that are not part of current church policy -- I'm hoping this one remains, it's a wonderful reminder of the unity we should all feel for the country we live in, regardless of where that might be. But we'll see where the Church goes in a year or two.

I found an FAQ about the new hymnbook, and it seems to me it will still be permitted.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/lea ... c?lang=eng

I found an FAQ about the new hymnbook

That's a great reference, thanks for the pointer! It will be really cool to see what those various digital collections of "sacred music of local interest" looks like for members throughout the world.

Who cares if we stand in Sacrament, General Conference, Firesides, Dedications, etc. to sing?
Why are we to be so regimented and nit picky? Does Jesus really concern himself with that? I think he wants us to sing, be happy, worship, and do good like he does/did.
It sounds so much like the CHURCH we don't want to be like/ yet in the year 2024....increased similarities, or a cult.
The Church now is so much different when I joined as a young adult.
Good grief.