Primary presidency asked to enter attendance for adult teachers

My Primary president asked if there is a way that she can take attendance for adult teachers in primary directly in the Tools app. She heard there was a way for the clerk to allow this. Anyone know about this?

The clerk can probably record it, but I don't think the clerk has any way of changing permissions. The only tool he has is to make sure everyone's calling is properly recorded as a standard position.

This may be an unorthodox workaround, but it works.

I created a new Primary class called “Primary Teacher Attendance” and assigned all the adults in Primary to it. It takes the place of their Gospel Doctrine class assignment, but it allows the Primary leadership to record their attendance.

There are a few potential drawbacks to this:

• If we release someone from their Primary calling, they won’t automatically get transferred back to Gospel Doctrine for attendance recording purposes. You have to change this manually.

• I had to create the class by splitting it from an existing class. This can disrupt automatic class advancement from year to year.

• I don’t know whether this has any effect on ward budget allocation for attendance metrics.

I’m a ward clerk, by the way. I don’t know whether the Primary presidency can set this up themselves.

janssenv wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:15 pm This may be an unorthodox workaround, but it works.

I created a new Primary class called “Primary Teacher Attendance” and assigned all the adults in Primary to it. It takes the place of their Gospel Doctrine class assignment, but it allows the Primary leadership to record their attendance.

There are a few potential drawbacks to this:

• If we release someone from their Primary calling, they won’t automatically get transferred back to Gospel Doctrine for attendance recording purposes. You have to change this manually.

• I had to create the class by splitting it from an existing class. This can disrupt automatic class advancement from year to year.

• I don’t know whether this has any effect on ward budget allocation for attendance metrics.

I’m a ward clerk, by the way. I don’t know whether the Primary presidency can set this up themselves.

This is a very bad idea in my humble opinion, and probably not authorized as all. Not sure what it will do to adult attendance numbers as you have made the adults into Primary children in a class. It may also smash the correct Primary attendance. I recommend you undo this ASAP. The software is probably allowing this as there may be a case where a cognitively disabled adult would still be allowed by the bishop to attend Primary. But in no way, shape or form did the business rules of the software ever want a class of teachers created.

garystroble wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:04 pm

janssenv wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:15 pm This may be an unorthodox workaround, but it works.

I created a new Primary class called “Primary Teacher Attendance” and assigned all the adults in Primary to it. It takes the place of their Gospel Doctrine class assignment, but it allows the Primary leadership to record their attendance.

There are a few potential drawbacks to this:

• If we release someone from their Primary calling, they won’t automatically get transferred back to Gospel Doctrine for attendance recording purposes. You have to change this manually.

• I had to create the class by splitting it from an existing class. This can disrupt automatic class advancement from year to year.

• I don’t know whether this has any effect on ward budget allocation for attendance metrics.

I’m a ward clerk, by the way. I don’t know whether the Primary presidency can set this up themselves.

This is a very bad idea in my humble opinion, and probably not authorized as all. Not sure what it will do to adult attendance numbers as you have made the adults into Primary children in a class. It may also smash the correct Primary attendance. I recommend you undo this ASAP. The software is probably allowing this as there may be a case where a cognitively disabled adult would still be allowed by the bishop to attend Primary. But in no way, shape or form did the business rules of the software ever want a class of teachers created.

I think his idea is a great idea. As the ward clerk in a large ward with multiple split primary classes. When I look at the quarterly report, it looks like his idea would more accurately report Melchizedek Priesthood holders (or prospective elders) attending priesthood, Sunday School, or Primary meetings and "Women attending Relief Society, Sunday School, Young Women, or Primary meetings" and the young single adults question as well (questions 14-17 in the Adults section of the quarterly report). It should have no impact on the ward budget or sacrament attendance and should actually make things more accurate.

I'm also tracking the downside and I think they are are manageable, especially if you do the release from Callings/Classes tab of the Member Information because you're going to see the class assignment and asterisk denoting that it is "out of default class assignment". We have so many split primary classes that the primary presidency has to send me a document with who goes where so at the beginning of the year many primary classes are manually set up.

janssenv wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:15 pm This may be an unorthodox workaround, but it works.

I created a new Primary class called “Primary Teacher Attendance” and assigned all the adults in Primary to it. It takes the place of their Gospel Doctrine class assignment, but it allows the Primary leadership to record their attendance.

There are a few potential drawbacks to this:

• If we release someone from their Primary calling, they won’t automatically get transferred back to Gospel Doctrine for attendance recording purposes. You have to change this manually.

• I had to create the class by splitting it from an existing class. This can disrupt automatic class advancement from year to year.

• I don’t know whether this has any effect on ward budget allocation for attendance metrics.

I’m a ward clerk, by the way. I don’t know whether the Primary presidency can set this up themselves.

Have you had any issues with your membership audits since doing this? I think it's a great idea btw and other than the possibility of an issue with the membership audits I'm not sure what other issues it would cause other than a little extra management but much more accurate attendance week-to-week.

tonynocchi wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:42 pm Have you had any issues with your membership audits since doing this? I think it's a great idea btw and other than the possibility of an issue with the membership audits I'm not sure what other issues it would cause other than a little extra management but much more accurate attendance week-to-week.

I made the change in mid-December, right after the last membership audit. I was able to perform a mock membership audit by going through the motions of an audit, but deleting the audit without submitting it. There were no exceptions identified by the audit system.

As for quarterly reports, I am unable to go through such a mock process. However, you are correct that the attendance percentages are not affected because they are done on the basis of the individuals, i.e. adults, rather than on the basis of the class they are assigned to, e.g. Gospel Doctrine or Primary. Attendance reporting for Primary teachers was hit-and-miss before the change, but it's been 100% after the change.

janssenv wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 3:01 pm

tonynocchi wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:42 pm Have you had any issues with your membership audits since doing this? I think it's a great idea btw and other than the possibility of an issue with the membership audits I'm not sure what other issues it would cause other than a little extra management but much more accurate attendance week-to-week.

I made the change in mid-December, right after the last membership audit. I was able to perform a mock membership audit by going through the motions of an audit, but deleting the audit without submitting it. There were no exceptions identified by the audit system.

As for quarterly reports, I am unable to go through such a mock process. However, you are correct that the attendance percentages are not affected because they are done on the basis of the individuals, i.e. adults, rather than on the basis of the class they are assigned to, e.g. Gospel Doctrine or Primary. Attendance reporting for Primary teachers was hit-and-miss before the change, but it's been 100% after the change.

Thank you for the feedback. I sent a message out to our stake clerk and some of the other ward clerks in our stake to ask their thoughts as well. I'm going to run this by our Bishop in a week or so after I get feedback but I think it will be a big help. I like LCR for the user-friendliness of it (it's pretty easy to learn) but I also find it to be pretty limited.

I have implemented this and taken it up a step. I assigned the YW Presidency and YW Adult Leaders into the YW classes in place of their RS class assignment. I assigned the adult leaders with the class they advise and the YW presidency gave me direction on how to assign the members of the presidency, but this allows the YW Secretary to take roll for all of them.

However, there is one issue I've run into. When ministering routes are adjusted for these sisters, I have to move them back into RS before the RS president can adjust their route, otherwise the RS president gets a message that sisters have to be assigned to RS and can't update the route. Because my wife is the RS president, this is really a non-issue. She told me about the error, I moved the sister back to RS, she reloaded the page, made the changes, and I moved the sister back to her assigned YW class. It literally took less than a minute. However, if your communications aren't immediate, this could lead to some delays/frustration, so obviously talk with your RS presidency first to find out how disruptive this might be.

I am not going to adjust for the Aaronic Priesthood quorum adults since it's the bishopric (who I account for anyway) and three other brothers I can easily account for.

tonynocchi wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:26 am I have implemented this and taken it up a step. I assigned the YW Presidency and YW Adult Leaders into the YW classes in place of their RS class assignment. I assigned the adult leaders with the class they advise and the YW presidency gave me direction on how to assign the members of the presidency, but this allows the YW Secretary to take roll for all of them.

However, there is one issue I've run into. When ministering routes are adjusted for these sisters, I have to move them back into RS before the RS president can adjust their route, otherwise the RS president gets a message that sisters have to be assigned to RS and can't update the route. Because my wife is the RS president, this is really a non-issue. She told me about the error, I moved the sister back to RS, she reloaded the page, made the changes, and I moved the sister back to her assigned YW class. It literally took less than a minute. However, if your communications aren't immediate, this could lead to some delays/frustration, so obviously talk with your RS presidency first to find out how disruptive this might be.

I am not going to adjust for the Aaronic Priesthood quorum adults since it's the bishopric (who I account for anyway) and three other brothers I can easily account for.

Software is designed to work together in multiple layers. When one layer is changed in a manner not anticipated in the field other layers will not work as programmed. By design, the Relief Society secretary is responsible for recording female Primary teachers attendance although the Ward Clerk can help record it himself. It's only a manner of time until the programmers change the software so that the unauthorized workaround being created will not function. At that point everything will need to be undone in these "classes" and the attendance recorded as directed.

garystroble wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:12 am

tonynocchi wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:26 am I have implemented this and taken it up a step. I assigned the YW Presidency and YW Adult Leaders into the YW classes in place of their RS class assignment. I assigned the adult leaders with the class they advise and the YW presidency gave me direction on how to assign the members of the presidency, but this allows the YW Secretary to take roll for all of them.

However, there is one issue I've run into. When ministering routes are adjusted for these sisters, I have to move them back into RS before the RS president can adjust their route, otherwise the RS president gets a message that sisters have to be assigned to RS and can't update the route. Because my wife is the RS president, this is really a non-issue. She told me about the error, I moved the sister back to RS, she reloaded the page, made the changes, and I moved the sister back to her assigned YW class. It literally took less than a minute. However, if your communications aren't immediate, this could lead to some delays/frustration, so obviously talk with your RS presidency first to find out how disruptive this might be.

I am not going to adjust for the Aaronic Priesthood quorum adults since it's the bishopric (who I account for anyway) and three other brothers I can easily account for.

Software is designed to work together in multiple layers. When one layer is changed in a manner not anticipated in the field other layers will not work as programmed. By design, the Relief Society secretary is responsible for recording female Primary teachers attendance although the Ward Clerk can help record it himself. It's only a manner of time until the programmers change the software so that the unauthorized workaround being created will not function. At that point everything will need to be undone in these "classes" and the attendance recorded as directed.

... and when that happens I'll adjust the classes. Right now we have 28 adults assigned to the "Adult" primary class and since the Primary presidency is going to know who is and isn't present for the second hour, this not only makes roll more accurate and efficient, it also makes it less intrusive or disruptive to primary and instead of relying on two people that may or may not be there or may have other significant efforts to work on during the second hour, there are four sisters who can take care of it.

Maybe if the programmers handling LCR looked at the reasons we're doing these 'unauthorized' work-arounds they'd design a better system that doesn't need to be circumvented? For every workaround I've done, I've submitted feedback on why a feature should be added or changed.

The programmers do not write the business rules of the software. Suggest you ask your Bishop and/or Stake President to take things up the chain of command if you want software changed and your feedback has not been addressed. Still no guarantees though.

mpolder wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:43 pm My Primary president asked if there is a way that she can take attendance for adult teachers in primary directly in the Tools app. She heard there was a way for the clerk to allow this. Anyone know about this?

As a reminder, GHB 33.5.1.1 states org secretaries are charged with recording attendance, with the ward clerk available to assist. So this shouldn't fall onto the Primary President's shoulders -- if there's no Primary Secretary, the Ward Clerk is the next resource and not the Primary President.

tonynocchi wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:38 amMaybe if the programmers handling LCR looked at the reasons we're doing these 'unauthorized' work-arounds they'd design a better system that doesn't need to be circumvented? For every workaround I've done, I've submitted feedback on why a feature should be added or changed.

I understand the issues with recording adult attendance in Primary. Another perspective is that the RS Presidency is responsible for caring for all their members, regardless of whether they attend the second hour RS classes or the second hour Primary classes. And keeping the responsibility for recording adult attendance with the RS Secretary (and EQ Secretary of course), can be a helpful way for the RS Presidency to remain connected with those sisters that are serving in Primary. As anyone knows, when you're serving in Primary it can feel like it's "out of sight, out of mind", and if you're in there a few years you can feel like your org presidents are forgetting about you. So having the RS Secretary recording attendance is one way to keep the RS Presidency aware of attendance patterns for their org members who are called into the Primary. I know when I served in Primary, seeing the RS Secretary come into singing time and record attendance and share announcements, made the sisters feel included (did our EQ Secretary ever make an appearance... no )

I'm not disputing the reasons some have for trying to find more effective ways to record attendance. And technically the RS Secretary should only record attendance on the 2nd and 4th Sundays, so then what happens on the "SS Sundays" is the next discussion point...

So thankfully, Bishops do have discretion to approve different approaches. But perhaps there's other perspectives as to why the implementation in LCR is the way it is, and those reasons may not always end up being efficient for all circumstances.

Thanks for all the discussion and hacks. I ended up added YW leaders to a YW class and Primary teachers to Primary class. The primary secretary loves it! A downside did appear when I got a call from the stake YW president who noticed the YW leaders on her list of YW.

mpolder wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 6:34 pm Thanks for all the discussion and hacks. I ended up added YW leaders to a YW class and Primary teachers to Primary class. The primary secretary loves it! A downside did appear when I got a call from the stake YW president who noticed the YW leaders on her list of YW.

Another issue you may notice is if your ward uses Circles it takes the adults out of whatever Circles group you substituted them in for (e.g. I substituted our Primary adults out of Sunday School and our YW adults out of Relief Society). The Ward Clerk may be able to add them back in...but I'm the Ward Clerk in my ward and I refuse to use the Gospel Living app or have it installed on my phone.

As previously noted, this affects ministering as well.

tonynocchi wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:32 am The Ward Clerk may be able to add them back in...

I do not believe the ward clerk (or anyone else locally, for that matter) has any control over Circles in Gospel Living.

lajackson wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 1:40 pm

tonynocchi wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:32 am The Ward Clerk may be able to add them back in...

I do not believe the ward clerk (or anyone else locally, for that matter) has any control over Circles in Gospel Living.

There are administrators at the local level that can remove people from Circles. For example, the Bishop, Ward Clerk, EQ President, and RS President are administrators of the "Adults" Circle and can remove members from accessing that channel. The Bishopric, Ward Clerk, and Ward Executive Secretary are administrators in the "Ward Council" Circle and can remove the other members. The Ward Clerk has the option to join any and all Circles and is an administrator in several Circles. We have removed people from Circles access in our ward. It doesn't look like the Clerk can add them back in but they may be able to rejoin the channel...although that sometimes works and often times doesn't.

Given the recent clarifications to the general handbook regarding the responsibilities for Elders Quorum and Relief Society secretaries to record the attendance of Primary teachers and leaders (Notice dated March 20, 2025), I have now removed the extra Primary class that I had created for the purpose of allowing the Primary presidency to record attendance of adults.

The wording isn't very strong there, it says responsibilities could include.