chronic soundsystem issues

First off, I know the answer to this is supposed to be, "Go through your local FM group," but that route has not been working, and this has been an ongoing problem for several months. It started with the sound system making a loud noise intermittently (like the sound of someone tapping the microphone, but louder, every few minutes). Eventually the sound system died, and the FM group gave us a temporary speaker - twice. They both failed after a while, and nothing worked at all. Someone came and messed with something at some point. We think that they probably replaced a few things in the microphone but didn't quite know what they were doing and possibly messed up some wiring, because now the microphone sort of works, but it's not very good (people are complaining that they can't hear half of what's said in the talks if the speaker moves their head much at all), and the podium doesn't go up and down, and when you first turn on the sound, it doesn't work right away; you have to play with the volume buttons first for it to really come on.

Everyone is frustrated with it, because this has been going on for so long, and our bishop has been trying to work with the FM group without much success. We've been told throughout the process that our particular sound system is only worked on by a couple of contractors (the building was built in 1985 and hasn't ever been updated), and so we are on a waiting list. Being a tiny ward in the middle of nowhere Michigan, it doesn't look like we're a priority. I guess my question is, has anyone heard about these sound systems that are so hard to get a contractor to work on and how long that usually takes? Any idea why they can't just put in a new, more updated sound system?

evenspor wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:03 amI know the answer to this is supposed to be, "Go through your local FM group," but that route has not been working, and this has been an ongoing problem for several months.

Yes, that is the first answer, but it sounds to me as if the next step is for your stake president to contact the FM Group. They will listen to him, and will explain the situation to his satisfaction.

To answer your other questions based on my own personal experience:

It is true that there are very few contractors able to work on a system as old as yours. Most of them have been replaced. And yes, there is a waiting list. It may be that you will need to wait your turn on the list until they are able to install a new system. That depends on a lot of things ranging from system availability to FM budgeting. If the replacement is in their plan, your stake should know approximately when the FM Group plans to make the change. If your system were to totally fail, they may be able to bump you up on the priority list.

Our meetinghouse was built in 1982 and the sound system was only changed out in the last year or two. Toward the end of the old system, the Church flew in a technician several times a year to try and repair serious failures, but there were not always parts and the repairs were not always successful.

Do not think that being in a tiny ward in the middle of nowhere Michigan makes you not have any priority. Older meetinghouses in large metroplexes have the same problems as different FM groups struggle to balance budget and system availability to keep chapel sound systems working. I do know that my FM group places chapel sound for sacrament meeting as one of their highest priorities for every building in our area.

And again, do not underestimate the influence your stake president has with your FM group director.

evenspor wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:03 am when you first turn on the sound, it doesn't work right away;

That part may be normal. Some sound systems have a delay of several seconds in the power-up sequence.

But there's clearly other issues. I'd also advise to get the stake president involved.

evenspor wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:03 am when you first turn on the sound, it doesn't work right away;

Our new system takes 15 seconds to work after you push the button to turn it on. And if you are not patient enough and push the button off and on again, the 15 seconds starts over each time.

Thanks for all of the input so far. It's good to hear from someone who has experienced something similar. Our bishop mentioned Sunday how many hours he has put into this so far, trying to communicate with FM, etc, and I thought, his time is so valuable; he shouldn't have to be spending so much of it on this. It's frustrating.

I can't add anything to the good principles already shared by others, but here's a quick example of a long standing issue we had.

Sound system would sometimes not power up correctly but 99% of the time it was fine.

Occasionally we'd get half way through the sacrament meeting and a loud buzzing would come screeching through the speakers but then go away again and service would resume.

Some weeks it happened, other times it didn't.

We couldn't pinpoint the source of the issue and had a dozen or so visits with technicians. First of all they came alone and eventually I arranged to meet them there to try and assist in some way.

They swapped components, first thinking it to be the power amplifier and then the pre amp, but after a week or two, the same fault came back.

I took matters into my own hands and disconnected the wireless microphone receiver and the assisted hearing transmitter and we haven't had a problem since.
I did reconnect the assisted hearing transmitter and the fault is still gone so we narrowed it down to the wireless microphone receiver. The technician came back and changed that Sennheiser unit but even with a brand new one installed, the issue continues.

There is some kind of weird interference that happens and it never occurs within the first 20 minutes of start up.

As a side note, our building was dedicated by Spencer W Kimball in the 70s. It had a new sound system installed in 2000.

All of the above is probably not related to your fault whatsoever but hopefully it helps in some way to outline the process and where we got to.

When FM know that a building issue is impacting the quality of worship, they generally move swiftly in my experience.

The new systems have a bug where when a microphone plug starts to come loose the system generated white noise. We finally figured out that the plug for the sacrament table microphone would work loose every few months or so. All we had to do was push it back in again and the hissing would go away. The same thing happens if a corded mic is plugged in loosely, such as the one used for baby blessings or confirmations.

The theory is that if the cord gets pulled, the plug is not locked in place and releases, avoiding damage. That is okay for the corded mic, but the reality is that the teachers bump the sacrament table while placing the trays on it, and every few months that plug comes loose.

The update four months later (four months after my post - the problem has been going on for much, much longer) is that there is still no update. The bishop has tried going through the stake president, and he has tried talking to the FM group himself again too. At one point they said that they came out to test it during the week, and it works fine, but it definitely does not work fine. It's become a running joke in the ward, and visitors always comment on it, including visitors from the stake ("Is there something wrong with your microphone?"). It definitely detracts from the worship service, and oftentimes people can't hear the talks. The bishop is tearing out his hair on this, because he doesn't know what to do at this point, and he is apparently taking all the comments personally (my husband is one of his counselors, which is why I know that). I wish there was something I could do to help, because I know how frustrated he is, and he has literally spent hours and hours trying to get this fixed. A bishop shouldn't have to spend all his time on something like this.

evenspor wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:44 am It's become a running joke in the ward, and visitors always comment on it, including visitors from the stake ("Is there something wrong with your microphone?"). It definitely detracts from the worship service, and oftentimes people can't hear the talks.

Once the stake president has spoken to the FM Group (if he actually has) there is not much more to be done. At this point, if it were me, I would document the problem until the FM Group gets so tired of it that they do something about it.

Each Sunday there was a problem, I would complete a new FIR (Facility Incident Report). Your husband, as a member or the bishopric, can do it. In that FIR I would say exactly what happened and that it caused disruption in sacrament meeting. If the FM Group came out during the week and tested the system and said everything was okay, I would submit a new FIR the next time there was a problem.

I would not try to explain what I thought was wrong with the system. I would just say what happened. For example:

There was a loud popping noise from the sound system during sacrament meeting.
The sound system turned itself off fifteen minutes into the meeting. We were able (or not able) to turn it on again.
The congregation could not hear the speakers. The volume could not be raised.

I would ask any stake visitor who commented on the sound system to please let the stake president know there was a problem. Every time.

It would seem that your only option now is simply to document the problem through FIR, over and over, each time there is a problem, until it gets the attention it needs.

And in your next visit with the stake president you should tell him how badly this is affecting your husband as bishop.

Document the problem clearly and accurately, without fanfare, every time it happens.

I'd also recommend logging a FIR each week on what issues happened and CC the Stake President into the FIR Issue as well.

I've had similar issues with trying to getting the sound system fixed in a few of the Stake Centers I assist with. I spoke to a FM outside my area about how I could get the issues resolved if I'm getting nowhere with my FM and he suggested to speak to the Stake President and asked him to contact the FM to get thing moving and tell them it's affecting the ability to hold Sunday meetings at the chapel.

Maybe see if the Stake President can speak to your FM to see if they can get the Technican out on a Sunday so they can see what's happening at the time.

I've heard with some of our older chapels in the around my area, the sound system had originally been put on the same power circuit as a water fountain/coolers, hand dryer or some other appliance that was only used on a Sunday and the AV Technician had to suggest to the FM to isolate the AV equipment on it's own circuit, but that was only after narrowing it down during the week by turning everything on like we would on a Sunday.
We've also had other issues with surges and brown outs and got to the point of having to install a UPS to keep the protect the AV Hardware when the brownouts and surges occur.

I've heard that in the past, the FM has rented systems if the Chapel system is failing so regularly, but that was only after the Stake President request a temporary backup audio system.

The Stake President has the ability to pressure the FM more than a Bishop, but logging FIR issues each week I've found it doesn't get lost as easy as an email or a phone call.

evenspor wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:03 am ...
and when you first turn on the sound, it doesn't work right away; you have to play with the volume buttons first for it to really come on.
...

I just noticed this thread and have some information on this particular point. The more modern DSP-based systems are specifically programmed to wait ~8 seconds after power is turned on before the audio channel is activated. You just have to wait until ~8 seconds after powering up the system before you'll get sound. If I understand correctly, at least part of the reason for that design is to reduce the frequency with which young children play with the PA system. Systems with that feature were deployed at least by 2004ish and possibly some number of years before that.

rmrichesjr wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:46 pm The more modern DSP-based systems are specifically programmed to wait ~8 seconds after power is turned on before the audio channel is activated. You just have to wait until ~8 seconds after powering up the system before you'll get sound.

Some were. Ours flashes for 8 seconds to indicate the timer, but is "on" immediately. Go figure.

OP, if you're still webcasting, you might want to record and then edit down to show what's happening. A video of what's going wrong would help the tech understand. By the time a write-up goes up the chain and filtered though FM, critical details may be lost.

I'm curious what the DSP on your unit looks like. If it's about 3.5" high, blue and says "Crown" it might be an issue we had many years ago. The switches used on the input to select between mic/line was of poor material that would absorb moisture and cause all kinds of problems. The solution was to replace the DSP. But I live in an area where the humidity can easily reach 80% or higher for weeks at a time. Michigan in winter, I'd think the chapel would be pretty dry.

I am not sure what you mean by DSP. If you clarify, I can take a picture. I can tell you our sound system is about 40 years old, so there's nothing "newer" about it. Michigan is not a dry place, although it is drier in the winter, but this isn't a winter problem. It's been going on ever since they "fixed" a different problem with the sound system several months ago by switching parts out with the little portable sound systems.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions so far. To clarify, my husband is not the bishop, but he's in the bishopric, so I hear from him about how frustrated the bishop is, and I pass along your suggestions to both of them. Ward Conference is coming up in a month, so hopefully the stake president will understand better when he is there trying to give a talk himself, and we'll have all those stake visitors there to see what's going on. We are the far-out rural ward that covers a large area, while the rest of the stake is in the city, so we really do have a lot of trouble getting help. I grew up in Utah, and my dad worked for FM there for a while, and I can tell you, things do work a little differently here. That is to say, it probably has more to do with individuals (because I'm sure my dad was the best), not being in Michigan, but it is harder to get help and be heard when you're farther out.

evenspor wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:08 am I am not sure what you mean by DSP.

Digital Signal Processor. It is the computer brains of the sound system. We used to call it the amplifier.

Crown was a common brand used by the Church many years ago. Ivie is a common one today. There are others.

I hesitate to wish bad luck, but I hope enough happens at your ward conference to get the stake president really interested in challenging the FM Group to solve the problem.

evenspor wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:08 am I am not sure what you mean by DSP. If you clarify, I can take a picture. I can tell you our sound system is about 40 years old, so there's nothing "newer" about it. ...

At about 40 years old, it likely doesn't have a DSP, because they didn't exist at that time. Crown made many of the main amplifiers installed in meetinghouses around that era--a VERY highly respected brand at the time. The Crown amps I saw in one stake center had circuitry that would smooth out overloads to avoid most of the unpleasant sound of clipping.

The closest thing to a DSP in that era was a 1U (1.75" tall rack-mountable) mixer with analog noise gates. On those, each of the four mic-level inputs had a gain control and a LED to indicate when the noise gate was open. The pots (potentiometers) on those units got dirty, scratchy, noisy very often. The most practical solution for that problem (with the system off or no microphone connected) is to smoothly rotate the knob between the extreme positions a couple dozen times.

In the modern systems I have seen, Ivie makes the DSP units, and the amplifiers are separate from the DSPs.

rmrichesjr wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:50 pm At about 40 years old, it likely doesn't have a DSP, because they didn't exist at that time. Crown made many of the main amplifiers installed in meetinghouses around that era--a VERY highly respected brand at the time.

Thinking about it, I think it was more of a matrix switcher that could be programmed from a computer. It's job was to route audio based on inputs. Like turning on the overflow when the won doors were opened and switching the cultural hall into overflow mode when all the doors where opened.

Yes, Crown is a respected brand, which was disappointing when I found those crummy switches on the inputs. I've seen them before on TASCAM 10 mixing boards with similar results.

I'd recognize it if I saw a picture of the front or back.

I know you're getting tons of responses here, and I didn't read through all of them, but the ONLY way to 'work with FM' is to use the ticketing system. Log tickets, when they close them, look at what they said, test it and then open another ticket if things still don't work. Log a ticket for EVERY thing... but don't log a ticket that says, sound system doesn't work... be very specific... put in the details. Tickets and Tickets and Tickets is the key. If it gets closed, open another one, if it gets closed again with no satisfaction open another one.