Our Stake's permanent camera setup

https://www.burchcreek.org/help/spec-sh ... -ptz-setup

This post describes our permanent hardware setup. With COVID winding down, we needed a permanent solution that can work for years. We actively sought how to fulfill the handbook's section 29.7:

Streams and virtual meetings should not distract from the Spirit. Generally, only one device should be used to capture the meeting. Both the device and the person using it should be inconspicuous.

To meet that further, we wanted the following:

• No taped cords on the floor
• Nothing persistent in the chapel Monday through Saturday
• No hardware near the speaker that the congregation can easily see
• Nothing installed to the walls (our FM was adamant on this point, they said the directive comes from the Presiding Bishopric)
• The ability to move the camera around as needed, such as during hymns or musical numbers, and zoom into a shoulders-to-head profile if desired
• No shaking camera when it moves
• Retain crystal clear pulpit audio with no hum or buzz
• Support a condenser mic for hymns and musical numbers
• A system clean enough that a camera assistant can use on just a few minutes of training
• Allow the assistant for the building's last ward to collapse it down and store it all in under 10 minutes of work
• Fit in an old building with minimal footprint area for a camera and very few wall power outlets
• Priced under $1000 per building

It took us months and plenty of trial and error, but we finally got it. I took pictures and wrote up the parts list, with the link to it given at the top of this post.

We've been using this setup for months and the result has been excellent. As for the laptop camera controls, audio/video mixing, using OBS with both YouTube and Zoom together, etc. That will be for another post in the future.

This setup still needs some refining. The cords at the bottom of the mic stand are too much of a mess. I'm also trying to attach a USB hub and a power strip to a mic stand, and right now I'm only using gaffers tape. I'm not quite sure the best way to do this cleanly. If anyone has any good insights on how to manage cords and the power strip at the bottom of the mic stand, I'm very interested to hear your ideas.

I like how everything mounts together on the stand. I agree the key is to simplify operations so it will be sustainable in the long-run.

As for the power strip, you might try mounting a small board using a pipe strap. Then you just "wall mount" your power strip. The USB hub is small enough I'd probably use zip ties.

Well done and thanks for sharing! Our Stake President was asked by our Area Authority to come up with a more long-term solution for webcasting in our ward meetinghouses. Of course, as STS and retired EE with quite a bit of of webcasting experience, that falls upon me to design and implement something within a yet-to-be-determined budget.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm reading into a "long-term solution" as a more permanent solution, which (IMO) would include mounted cameras. I appreciate letting us know the direction you've been given from your FM regarding this. I'll have my PFR get a definite answer from our FM manager before even starting the planning stage.

Looks like a great solution. We are fumbling our way towards something more permanent and crucially sustainable in terms of ease to setup etc.

We have a similar USB PTZ camera, but made by Angekis. It has UVC protocol that allow us to control the PTZ via the single USB cable without the need for an additional serial adapter.

Have you tried this to see if it works for you?

You are using OBS which has it's own plug ins, but there are standalone applications for software based PTZ control. I've tried the offerings from PTZoptics as well as Panasonic and Angekis themselves and they all work with our cheap USB PTZ camera.

Side benefit of this if you are using Zoom instead of OBS is the far end camera control.

Mikerowaved wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:12 amI got a 404 error with your link above. I found the following page on your website that I think explains your setup pretty well, with nice photos, BTW:

Ack! I just fixed it. I had goofed up the URL last night. My original link works now.

but I'm reading into a "long-term solution" as a more permanent solution, which (IMO) would include mounted cameras.

Oh I completely agree. But I've tried numerous angles to get this and failed each time.

• Our stake center has a very old tech setup, just coax cables running around in rooms, some of which don't work. The coax cables also have no support anywhere except a channel modulator in the stake clerk's office. Before the pandemic, one of the church contractors came out and helped me get it going. He was able use the rack to send a coax video signal into channel 5. But then he had no way to get the video back out to use in rooms. He literally said "I need some kind of demodulator, something that can take a coax signal on channel 5 and turn it into RCA cables" I replied "Like a VCR?" "Yes!' So our tech setup used an old VCR I had lying around at home. We tried using that as an argument to get a tech upgrade. The response from FM was that our tech setup was sufficient, and the soonest they'd consider an upgrade is 2026.
• We heard through the grapevine that if you quietly mount a camera per building and do it in a way that's as non-destructive as possible, then church contractors won't care and FM looks the other way. So we started to go down this road...
• Then our FM head got wind of our plan to screw two bolts per building to mount a camera, and he made a few long calls to our High Council rep explaining in several ways why that is a terrible idea.
• As one alternative idea, one of our buildings has an old closed circuit camera still mounted that was used for a mothers cry room that nobody has been able to use for over a decade. I wanted to just quietly replace it with a PTZ camera...but that didn't fly either
• Our stake center's boiler kept going out, so they're scheduling us for a full HVAC upgrade, and since it's such an internal remodel, they're going to give us an AV upgrae at the same time. It sounds like it won't happen until 2023 due to the supply chain and labor shortages.

So that put me in a real bind. I was surprised how *hard* a permanent solution was in this. I was just not a fan of the Mevo camera approach. In my opinion not inconspicuous, it has bad audio, and PTZ presets are vastly superior and foolproof. The thing that moved me forward was a thread several months back where people posted their other temporary camera mounting setups. Tripods just don't work in many buildings. But cameras on a big pole with a sturdy base does the trick. The rest was all about cords, wireless audio, and proper OBS plugins.

Wattsuk wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:20 am Have you tried this to see if it works for you?

It could, I just didn't try. I just know that serial/VISCA is the gold standard. This PTZ camera came bundled with the cable that turns it into a DS9 serial, and DS9 serial to USB cables are cheap. I plugged it together and it all worked like a charm. I've tested this exact same setup on the church's Lumens standard camera used for stake centers by plugging this cable into the rack, and we were able to control those Lumens PTZ cameras exactly the same.

I know some PTZs let you control via USB and get data via USB as well. I just don't know how standardized this protocol is.

I also know many recent PTZ cameras use a quasi documented HTTP API feature that can set and recall presets. At least one STS tech has figured out a way to script that and write their own system.

The OBS-PTZ plugin that came out in the past year has really made things nice. I've tried some other proprietary devices for VISCA control and their UI was a mess. I considered extra hardware with joysticks that do VISCA, but I wanted my setup to require a single laptop for the assistant. [/quote]

Side benefit of this if you are using Zoom instead of OBS is the far end camera control.

You can control your camera presets from Zoom?

bradpeterson@gmail.com wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:50 pm Our stake center has a very old tech setup, just coax cables running around in rooms, some of which don't work. The coax cables also have no support anywhere except a channel modulator in the stake clerk's office. Before the pandemic, one of the church contractors came out and helped me get it going. He was able use the rack to send a coax video signal into channel 5. But then he had no way to get the video back out to use in rooms.

That's strange. Usually the rooms are wired up to get the output of the demodulator(s). Just wire into a TV set's Antenna/cable jack and set to Ch 5.

The cables that "don't work" are probably wired for RF distribution (from the modulators) and have things like splitters, taps, an attenuators - all which are deadly to anything like baseband video.

bradpeterson@gmail.com wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:59 pm

Wattsuk wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:20 am Have you tried this to see if it works for you?

It could, I just didn't try. I just know that serial/VISCA is the gold standard. This PTZ camera came bundled with the cable that turns it into a DS9 serial, and DS9 serial to USB cables are cheap. I plugged it together and it all worked like a charm. I've tested this exact same setup on the church's Lumens standard camera used for stake centers by plugging this cable into the rack, and we were able to control those Lumens PTZ cameras exactly the same.

I know some PTZs let you control via USB and get data via USB as well. I just don't know how standardized this protocol is.

I also know many recent PTZ cameras use a quasi documented HTTP API feature that can set and recall presets. At least one STS tech has figured out a way to script that and write their own system.

The OBS-PTZ plugin that came out in the past year has really made things nice. I've tried some other proprietary devices for VISCA control and their UI was a mess. I considered extra hardware with joysticks that do VISCA, but I wanted my setup to require a single laptop for the assistant.

Side benefit of this if you are using Zoom instead of OBS is the far end camera control.

You can control your camera presets from Zoom?
[/quote]

Worth trying if you have time, if you can reliably maintain the same functionality whilst removing a cable from the equation, then it must be worth doing?

Yes, we can control PTZ functions via zoom but the use case is quite niche I expect.
If for example you do not have an available tech specialist and may need a member of the Bishopric on the stand to take control it is very simple.
Join the zoom meeting from a secondary device such as a smartphone, click on the participant that is broadcasting the meeting, select the option to request camera control. The laptop that is then broadcasting the zoom meeting with receive the request to authorise that, handing PTZ control to the secondary user.
This could also be useful if the tech specialist happens to be the one who is self isolating at home with covid!

Anyway, not exactly an important feature on a week to week basis, but a handy back up feature for those using zoom.

P.S. Your FM sounds difficult. It is amazing what can usually be achieved when the Stake President gets on board and applies pressure from his position.

Our FM head is great, he'll help us on everything we ask. Whenever I send him an email or a phone message, I get a good detailed reply.

He wants to let us mount cameras, but he just isn't wanting to fight the Presiding Bishopric on mounting cameras. Especially in non-stake buildings.

bradpeterson@gmail.com wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:16 am Our FM head is great, he'll help us on everything we ask. Whenever I send him an email or a phone message, I get a good detailed reply.

He wants to let us mount cameras, but he just isn't wanting to fight the Presiding Bishopric on mounting cameras. Especially in non-stake buildings.

I wonder if we have the same FM manager! Ours is also very responsive to our needs, however, when asked by my PFR about mounting cameras in ward buildings, the reply was a definite, "No". He confirmed that came from the Presiding Bishopric and he had no say in the matter.

brad_p wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:47 pm https://www.burchcreek.org/help/spec-sh ... -ptz-setup

I just went looking for this page, but it is no longer available. I'm mainly interested in a couple of the items you had in a list of equipment. Any chance you could publish it again?

Thanks!

danpass wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:48 pm I just went looking for this page, but it is no longer available. I'm mainly interested in a couple of the items you had in a list of equipment. Any chance you could publish it again?

Fixed. We just updated the website this week, looks like this page didn't get transferred over.

As a heads up, I'm now about a year into using this setup. It's largely held up. Some comments:

• This camera is mostly good, but its focus is extremely tight and often loses its focus on presets. So the camera assistants have to do an extra step to try and focus in and out to get them right. I thought I saw someone else mention a quality sub $700 20x PTZ camera here last week. If you can find it, and if it has a serial connection for VISCA, consider it. (Edit: Found it: SMTAV NDI PTZ Camera 20x zoom)
• The audio transmitter/receiver is sensitive to electronic interference combined with a room full of cell phones. We found we needed to move the receiver to the extension bar in between the camera and the mic, and also make sure to keep any other wires far away. Sometimes you also have to get the right channel to be good all meeting.
• Use zip ties to organize cables properly. Also, make sure cords aren't hanging down from the PTZ camera, they can start to tug, and you want to use zip ties here judiciously to prevent that.
• The cable sleeve organizer listed in the parts list is too narrow. Get one that's fatter so it easily holds all cords.
• When you physically set the camera up, have the camera very lightly rest up against a wall. Stops all vibrations.
• Use OBS and the PTZ camera plug in. Set presets. Make some object be your weekly calibrator (like the hymn numbers on the wall), and physically move the camera pole until fits the calibration. Then the other PTZ presets are dead on.
• Don't get the cheaper mic in the parts list. It works, but it's got a narrow range where it sounds good, and a range where it can start crackling or popping. Good audio makes such a big difference.

Overall, I'm happy with this setup. Last month we had a building where the boiler died, twice. So they moved sacrament meetings to the gym. Both times I was given 20 minutes notice. I was able to drive down, move the entire setup to their gym, redo a few PTZ presets, and run the broadcast just the same.

brad_p wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:36 pm ...(Edit: Found it: SMTAV NDI PTZ Camera 20x zoom)...

Be careful when ordering any of these lesser-known brand cameras, such as SMTAV, Zowietek, Prisual, AVKANS, SZOOMSY, FoMaKo, TONGVEO, Vikery, etc. Some of their models support full NDI (125~200Mbs for 1080p60), while other models only support NDI|HX (12~22Mbs for 1080p60). NDI|HX can have as much as 0.25 - 0.5s lag time. This can be corrected in programs like OBS, but forum users say the lag time isn't constant, which really messes things up.

With that said, in extreme cases, NDI|HX may be preferable, where perhaps the wired LAN is limited to 100Mbs, or the signal must be sent over WiFi. Just keep an eye on the specs when ordering. I had to return a FoMaCo camera that claimed it was "NDI", but was really NDI|HX.

BTW, uncompressed 1080p60 over SDI (coax) clocks in just under 3Gbs, so to compress that down to ~150Mbs (NDI), or even 20Mbs (NDI|HX) and still have a pretty good looking picture at the end of the day is quite an accomplishment. NDI|HX2, and now NDI|HX3 promise better quality with lower lag time. That might be an option for some.

I've updated the parts list a bit with what I mentioned a few days ago.

Mikerowaved wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:50 am BTW, uncompressed 1080p60 over SDI (coax) clocks in just under 3Gbs, so to compress that down to ~150Mbs (NDI), or even 20Mbs (NDI|HX) and still have a pretty good looking picture at the end of the day is quite an accomplishment. NDI|HX2, and now NDI|HX3 promise better quality with lower lag time. That might be an option for some.

Can you give me a rundown of how you use NDI? (Or perhaps start a different post?) I've largely ignored NDI and stuck with tried and true direct HDMI for video and a serial cable for PTZ control. I started to go down the NDI road, but didn't like that it was a proprietary standard, and NDI / OBS support was lackluster, at best.

I'm just trying to understand where NDI is a great idea. I know people use it and swear by it, but I just didn't see it.

brad_p wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:27 am Can you give me a rundown of how you use NDI?

We're currently using the church's setup with their HDMI extenders. However, I've used NDI quite a bit for other events I've webcasted. One big advantage is if the camera supports POE and NDI, you only need to run ONE Cat5e/Cat6 cable to it. I found a dedicated cable is best, but 1 or 2 cameras can be run on an existing gigabit LAN.

With that one cable, you can power the camera, receive a nice video stream, control the PTZ operations, and get into the camera's built-in setup/configuration page(s). OBS natively supports NDI quite well and can do camera control with one of several plugins available. [Google search]

NDI uses an extremely good compression algorithm that in most cases is not visibly different from the original. SDI and HDMI carry uncompressed signals, so quality is rarely an issue. I guess it's the simplicity of running everything off one cable that's contributing to NDI's fast growth in the webcasting industry.

Mikerowaved wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:11 pm

brad_p wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:27 am Can you give me a rundown of how you use NDI?

With that one cable, you can power the camera, receive a nice video stream, control the PTZ operations, and get into the camera's built-in setup/configuration page(s).

Ah, that does sound nice, three cables get reduced to one cable.

I was in a situation where we asked for an ethernet jack and an audio jack for our wards buildings and was told no to both. So PoE was definitely out of the question.

OBS natively supports NDI quite well and can do camera control with one of several plugins available. [Google search]

Yes, OBS has camera control plugins, but their *NDI* plugins struggle. I use the OBS PTZ plugin by glikely and love it, I've had it work with three different brands of cameras without an issue. The OBS NDI plugin on the other hand I ran three issues: 1) the main NDI plugin was languishing without updates, 2) it about doubled the CPU computational requirements on some laptops that didn't have any CPU left to give, 3) people routinely complained that the plugin's audio/video desynced and progressively drifted off more and more over time with no fix available.

But man, if I could just plug in one cable to a camera on the wall, and just connect my laptop up to the network, and do everything to control that camera, I'd love it.