Updated General Handbook re: 2nd hour attendance

I have read General Handbook section 33.5.1.1, which was released 15 Dec 2021, over and over and am at a loss if these are real changes or errors:

1) We are to record visitors now for 2nd hour? Where would this be done and how do we identify them as visitors or non-members? We have never counted visitors in second hour in the past to my knowledge, nor is there a mechanism currently to do so in LCR or the Member App.

2) Instructions for many years have been to record those who attend other wards such as full-time missionaries and those with Stake callings or assignments as attending their home ward for 2nd hour (and previously 3rd hour). The language here is completely the opposite, saying their attendance should be recorded in the ward they attend that week, not sure how that is possible in the current software.

Does anyone have any more information or guidance on these changes, if in fact they are really changes and not just typos? It seems to me that especially item 2) is taking a situation which is easy to manage and turning it into a complicated and confusing one.

Yes, this is a change. And it strikes me as odd because while sacrament is just a count, the 2nd hour has always been a roll. How visitors are dealt with is a good question.

These are valid changes. While a few typos may have slipped through, the Handbook has been vetted pretty thoroughly. More instructions will come soon -- I don't know how soon.

I see a change coming at LCR. Perhaps the list of organization members will stay, but I forsee the addition of a box where a number may be entered, as is currently done for sacrament meeting.

What I see, or course, is totally my own personal opinion. I have nothing on which to base it, either. Therefore, it is totally useless at this point. Feel free to ignore my musings.

As Elders Quorum President, I don't see anything different on the Class and Quorum Attendance report as of today. Until changes happen to the report, there is nothing I can do about it so will just wait for the changes. No point in getting concerned about something that is not live yet and that we don't have instructions for. Keep Calm and Carry On (and check the report periodically for any changes...).

davesudweeks wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:12 am As Elders Quorum President, I don't see anything different on the Class and Quorum Attendance report as of today. Until changes happen to the report, there is nothing I can do about it so will just wait for the changes. No point in getting concerned about something that is not live yet and that we don't have instructions for. Keep Calm and Carry On (and check the report periodically for any changes...).

It is always good to have a plan in advance. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, the old saying goes, referring to the Church collectively and not individually.

garystroble wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:41 pm It is always good to have a plan in advance. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, the old saying goes, referring to the Church collectively and not individually.

I don't disagree. My plan is (if no instructions are issued beforehand from the church) to watch the tech forum and check the attendance form for changes at least a few days before each EQ meeting. Until something changes, there is not much point in speculating on something we don't have any details about.

Hopefully it is not rolled out with the information that it is in effect 6 weeks prior to the instructions as one of the recent attendance changes was. That is my big concern regarding a plan; there needs to be one, and forward looking not retroactive. Here is a link to the last retroactive roll-out I am referencing, it was dated February 10 but retroactive to January 1:
viewtopic.php?t=38535&hilit=retroactive

In the quarterly report (the main reason attendance is taken, since it directly affects your budget allowance), the actual reported values on all the attendance-based metrics have already been editable for as long as I can remember. The initial values in the report come from your attendance for convenience, but if you know a given number should be higher (eg, due to out-of-unit members, investigators, visitors), you can already edit it directly by just using the "Edit" button in LCR.

nitzmahone wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:43 pm In the quarterly report (the main reason attendance is taken, since it directly affects your budget allowance), the actual reported values on all the attendance-based metrics have already been editable for as long as I can remember. The initial values in the report come from your attendance for convenience, but if you know a given number should be higher (eg, due to out-of-unit members, investigators, visitors), you can already edit it directly by just using the "Edit" button in LCR.

Second hour attendance does not currently materially affect the budget allowance, other than slight additions for young men, young women, older primary children and young single adults. It is primarily driven by sacrament meeting attendance which is just a head count. Thus far no instructions have been received to include out of unit members, investigators or visitors in the second hours statistics as well, which was my original point. Everyone present or virtual is counted for sacrament meeting.

Church procedures change from time to time, but the underlying principles rarely change. As long as I can remember, sacrament was just a headcount, but PH/RS was about roll-taking. My impression is it was there to force the leadership to take notice when someone stopped attending. Retaining member can be tricky given "out of sight, out of mind". The old reports I remember actually asked for new names to the "never attended" status.

But it does sound like a headcount is also coming. I'm not sure why, but it would help the youth and primary budget as it would add investigators.

Still crickets on this change.

I noticed today some new behavior in the Class and Quorum Attendance Report and Quarterly Report. Local Unit Support (801-240-3500 confirmed it is new as of this year, so I think early 2023):

• The Class and Quorum Attendance report has a Visitors tab, with Men, Women, YM, YW, children as subcategories for weekly visitor counts there.

• In the LCR Quarterly Report, the help text (tapping [or left clicking, etc.] on each category and reading pop-ups) 14, 16, 18, 19, 22 (Men, Women, YM, YW, children 3+ yrs old) 2nd hour rows says we should count visitors when recording attendance in Class and Quorum Attendance tool in LCR or Member Tools.

Local Unit Support confirmed that the Quarterly Report now counts visitors.

garystroble wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:08 am 2) Instructions for many years have been to record those who attend other wards such as full-time missionaries and those with Stake callings or assignments as attending their home ward for second hour (and previously 3rd hour). The language here is completely the opposite, saying their attendance should be recorded in the ward they attend that week, not sure how that is possible in the current software.

Disclaimer heh heh: I realize the info below is unofficial... but sometimes these types of input can help frame a good inference of how to move forward. So I thought I'd share:

Local Unit Support (801-240-3500) says that members with assignments in other wards should no longer automatically be counted as attending their home unit during second hour, so long as those members are not attending. I think the inference was that full time missionaries are included in this. Specifically, Local Unit Support associate said that basically, we are now to simply count the attendees (which naturally means "in-person or by streaming" per Handbook 33.5.1.1) during our second hour. Thus we no longer manually add (to our attendance counts) those that are not attending our meeting (e.g. those that are not attending because they are on assignment elsewhere out of the unit).

The example that they gave is a member in ward A that is called (assigned?) to ward B as a bishop for ward B. Let's say on a Sunday, the Bishop attends ward B second hour (and does not attend ward A second hour that day). In that case, that member only gets counted as attending second hour for ward B, and does not get counted as attending second hour for ward A (note: under the previous rule, as applied to this scenario, they'd have been counted as attending ward A, at the least).

So the (very helpful!) Local Unit Support associate also said they are assuming that the following older-type instruction is naturally no longer applicable and will probably eventually be removed: "Those who are unable to attend priesthood or Sunday Relief Society meetings because of a Church assignment are to be recorded as attending (including full-time missionaries serving from the ward)." Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/too ... t?lang=eng.

In summary, the thought seems to be that we have simplified the rule to be: In attendance roles and the Quarterly Report, count the second hour the same as the first hour, i.e. only count in-person and virtual attendees to the second hour meeting, including visitors.

tatemike wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:22 pm

garystroble wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:08 am 2) Instructions for many years have been to record those who attend other wards such as full-time missionaries and those with Stake callings or assignments as attending their home ward for 2nd hour (and previously 3rd hour). The language here is completely the opposite, saying their attendance should be recorded in the ward they attend that week, not sure how that is possible in the current software.

Local Unit Support (801-240-3500) says that members with assignments in other wards shouldn't be counted in their home unit in the 2nd hour. I think the inference was that full time missionaries are included in this. So basically, we are to simply count "literal" attendance in our 2nd hour, and not manually add those that are attending on assignment elsewhere. The example that they gave is a member in ward A assigned to ward B as bishop. Each week they attend during the 2nd hour in ward B, they should only be counted as attending by ward B. Ward A should not count them as attending the 2nd hour, even though they are members of ward A that are assignment out of unit.

The (very helpful!) Local Unit Support associate also said they are assuming that this instruction is thus no longer applicable and that it takes some time to update everything: "Those who are unable to attend priesthood or Sunday Relief Society meetings because of a Church assignment are to be recorded as attending (including full-time missionaries serving from the ward)." Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/too ... t?lang=eng

I assume that members unable to attend priesthood or Sunday Relief Society meetings because of a Church assignment in their own ward should still be included in the attendance, such as primary teachers – since they won't be counted in any other ward. Is that correct?

sbradshaw wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:33 pm I assume that members unable to attend priesthood or Sunday Relief Society meetings because of a Church assignment in their own ward should still be included in the attendance, such as primary teachers – since they won't be counted in any other ward. Is that correct?

Yes, I think you are correct, per this 33.5.1.1: "Members who are serving in the Primary or as youth leaders within the ward are also included as attending." Thanks.

I also updated my #14 comment with more context; thanks.

By the way, I'm assuming the goal is for visitors to be counted (in second hour attendance) once per visitor per quarter, just like the members (we basically count all members once who attended at least once during the quarter). Maybe that assumption is open to interpretation (or observation of how the Quarterly Report works over time).

But if that assumption is correct:

• I wonder how this is solved currently, since the report can't tell how many recorded weekly visitor numbers include repeat visitors vs. new unique visitors, during the quarter.

• Maybe the report will eventually instead specify an average of the quarter second hour attendance (for each category -- women, men, YW, etc.) instead of representing total unique attendees. That's how the report currently solves it for sacrament attendance.

• For now, it's easy enough for clerks to review and adjust those automatic totals to be more accurate, based on our personal knowledge of which repeat visitors were unique vs. repeats. Some of that knowledge could come from secretaries of different quorums/organizations.

So all this is questions, not answers -- just thoughts that may help people others recognize areas that may need a little attention.

tatemike wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:25 pm For now, it's easy enough for clerks to review and adjust those automatic totals to be more accurate, based on our personal knowledge of which repeat visitors were unique vs. repeats.

I record the number of visitors who attend during 2nd hour in the visitor box. I make no distinction whether or not they are unique or repeat visitors. For example, if there are two visitors each week, there is a 2 in every box. It may be the same two people each Sunday for the entire quarter, or it may be eight different people each month.

While the number is of interest with regard to missionary or activation work, it does not have any effect on the budget allocation, so I do not worry very much about it.