Ward Youth Fundraiser: Using Venmo

Question: anyone out there done a ward fundraiser and used Venmo to help facilitate donations?

Details:
1. Ward fundraiser (flags) for youth activities (our one/yr) and contributions come from members and nonmembers alike
2. Nonmembers can't contribute via church website
3. Hoping to collect cash, checks, but thinking most will want to contribute via Venmo
4. Would like to setup a Venmo account with a handle identifying the ward
5. Bank account tied to it that is in the ward's name and therefore doesn't have the look of any particular member's name on it

We've got the solution on the bank account. But Venmo is trickier...have to find someone who doesn't already have a Venmo account who can create it in the ward's name. Unless you know of a better way?

Thanks!

jimlaudie wrote:We've got the solution on the bank account.

I'm curious as to what that solution would be. Wards and branches are only allowed to have only account - usually the one provided by the church. (General Handbook 34.6.7-34.6.8)

I don't know as you'd be able to tie Venmo to a church-run account. And quite possibly Venmo might be considered a prohibited account.

jimlaudie wrote: 2. Nonmembers can't contribute via church website

For these kinds of funds members can't contribute via the church website either.

Venmo would probably also violate the rule that only the Bishop and Councilors may receive donations (Handbook 34.6.1). Venmo would essentially be a 3rd party accepting funds for the church.

Also, the normal church financial procedures and auditing aren't designed to ensure correct handling of funds using Venmo. As such the bishop, counselors and clerks would be opening themselves up to serious consequences if something happened to the funds. Personally, as a clerk I would stay far away from such a situation.

That does raise a question of how the auditors would react to this.

jimlaudie wrote:=3. Hoping to collect cash, checks, but thinking most will want to contribute via Venmo

Reading the other messages in this thread, I think your best bet would to just limit to cash and check. Also, if you used Venmo anyway it might break some form of Venmo's rules too, especially if you're going to make an account in the wards name. Now you/your ward probably wouldn't be noticed by them if you did, but I personally wouldn't. I'm sure most people wouldn't base their decision on whether to contribute to the fundraiser solely upon if the ward accepted Venmo anyway and would be fine with cash or check.

I had this same question and searched to find this thread. As more people go cashless, this will come up more often.... especially in scenarios where the donation/funds are coming from the general public (not a ward member).

In some ways Venmo actually creates a digital paper trail where cash does not. Cash is messy too from the standpoint of being easy to steal. Checks are bad when dealing with bounced checks from strangers (insufficient funds) especially if goods were exchanged for the check.

(Come back in 5 years and someone will be asking this question about bitcoin.)

Hi Jim. Were you able to figure out a way to use Venmo that was within the Handbook guidelines? I was contemplating the same thing for our fundraiser but couldn't figure out how to do it. After reading this thread (which was very helpful; thank you to all), the only thing that I could come up with is that any youth whose parent(s) have a Venmo account could offer that option to their "buyers" for payment. Then the parent(s) of that youth could write a check to the ward's "other" account set up for the fundraiser. That would provide a cleaner trail than simply paying with cash. To all, any thoughts?

mdguymons wrote:Hi Jim. Were you able to figure out a way to use Venmo that was within the Handbook guidelines? I was contemplating the same thing for our fundraiser but couldn't figure out how to do it. After reading this thread (which was very helpful; thank you to all), the only thing that I could come up with is that any youth whose parent(s) have a Venmo account could offer that option to their "buyers" for payment. Then the parent(s) of that youth could write a check to the ward's "other" account set up for the fundraiser. That would provide a cleaner trail than simply paying with cash. To all, any thoughts?

My personal thoughts: for whatever reasons that are not disclosed (at least not that I have ever heard), money from fundraisers can only be collected via a paper donation slip if you want to stay within the church policies. Not online via the church website, not through some fund transfer service such as Venmo. Whether the payment is by check or cash makes no difference - the church financial policies handle both methods. Individuals who branch out on their own, outside of the church policies, may find themselves liable should something go wrong (no matter how well-meaning their deviation from the policy may be).

I think the Handbook puts a serious crimp in anything like this. From 34.6.1 - Receiving Tithing and Other Offerings:

Only the bishop and his counselors may receive tithes and other offerings. Under no circumstances should their wives, other members of their families, clerks, or other ward members receive these contributions. The only exception is when Aaronic Priesthood holders are assigned to collect fast offerings (see 34.4.2).

I'm not seeing any exception for fundraisers. Not even checking the fundraising section 20.6.8.

russellhltn wrote:I think the Handbook puts a serious crimp in anything like this. From 34.6.1 - Receiving Tithing and Other Offerings:

Only the bishop and his counselors may receive tithes and other offerings. Under no circumstances should their wives, other members of their families, clerks, or other ward members receive these contributions. The only exception is when Aaronic Priesthood holders are assigned to collect fast offerings (see 34.4.2).

I'm not seeing any exception for fundraisers. Not even checking the fundraising section 20.6.8.

As attorneys often say, you can't write a contract so tightly that some other creative attorney can't find an angle it doesn't cover. e.g. The handbook can't be so extensively written as to cover every possible scenario and fundraisers open a Pandora's box of variations. "Friends of Scouting" is an example of one where a non-bishopric member collected donations (though given in the name of the local scout council and not the church). Given this Venmo question is going to keep coming up, I'm surprised there hasn't been any direction proactively offered from HQ. I'm guessing these decisions must be happening locally at the stake level when they do come up.

mdguymons wrote:... Were you able to figure out a way to use Venmo that was within the Handbook guidelines? I was contemplating the same thing for our fundraiser but couldn't figure out how to do it. After reading this thread (which was very helpful; thank you to all), the only thing that I could come up with is that any youth whose parent(s) have a Venmo account could offer that option to their "buyers" for payment. Then the parent(s) of that youth could write a check to the ward's "other" account set up for the fundraiser. That would provide a cleaner trail than simply paying with cash. To all, any thoughts?

Multiple Venmo accounts out of the control of a bishopric member collecting funds is a scary thought. The church does have solid guidelines on handling funds as @russellhltn points out and deviating so drastically from them... ack.

As conventional checks become more and more passé, I have little doubt that something will be happening. But I'm reminded of a rumored quote that came from a General Authority who allegedly said "The Church moves slowly, if at all."

This came up in our stake recently as well and I bumped into this thread. Anyone had any further insight?

It looks like the handbook for this portion says the same thing, but moved to 34.5.2

Hi AJ, we didn't get any further. I'm hoping someone from the church is seeing this. It's still an issue from my angle.

I'm a little surprised that we're not hearing something about this from the church. People just don't do cash/check anymore and there's got to be some way to roll this into 2022.

Maybe just churning this thread once more will invite some other comments if folks have found a way to do this that works. And let me know if you come across anything. We'll probably have the same question come up again in a few months.

In our discussions we came up with something along the lines of this

• A Bishop or counselor uses their venmo to accept the payments. This keeps the spirit of the law that only a bishopric member receives the funds (spirit in that yes, venmo is in the mix)
• A log of payments made is kept outside of venmo
• The venmo holder prints out a list of all the submissions he received
• Two finance-worthy priesthood holders review the log of payments and the venmo submissions to make sure they match
• The venmo holder pays out the equivalent amount via cash/check that is submitted like any other donation via a donation slip

This was a loose discussion around how to stay as close as possible to the cash/check donation. This doesn't address other valid questions of legality of using venmo (or others), etc.

As was mentioned by someone else relative to friends of scouting, there does seem to be times when others collect money when it isn't specifically tithing or fast offering. Pretty much any other fund raising activity (yard sale, car wash, service auction, etc) will have a "cash box" type collection of small payments of services where I doubt a bishopric member is making every collection (naturally this is personal opinion/experience).

We definitely wish there was better official direction, but are trying to accommodate those who would donate when it is convenient (venmo) but wouldn't otherwise. Or getting into an IOU situation where something is given and you have to keep hounding people to pay via an offering slip for weeks after.

Anyway, far from anything official... but is where our discussion went.

I like it. I think that sticks to the spirit of it. The only thing that looks less desirable is they're donating to @bishopric-member on Venmo instead of @wardname. But if folks are not concerned about that, seems like this accomplishes what we're after.

The other key thing is that non-tithing/FO donations are already regularly handled by others (non-bishopric) in practice so there's a precedent to allow a Venmo (cashbox and non-bishopric) to be a means of getting it to the bishopric member for accountability purposes.

I think you guys were right on. Seems like it checks the boxes to me.

jimlaudie wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:08 pm The other key thing is that non-tithing/FO donations are already regularly handled by others (non-bishopric) in practice so there's a precedent to allow a Venmo (cashbox and non-bishopric) to be a means of getting it to the bishopric member for accountability purposes.

But can you show anything in the Handbook that indicates that's acceptable? Otherwise, it appears to be a case of justifying wrongdoing because of other wrongdoing.

barkeraj wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:38 pm In our discussions we came up with something along the lines of this

I would be very careful about actually doing this. This process involves putting what is supposed to be money for the church into a personal account. I understand that you've tried to put your own controls on it to make it safe and that's certainly better than just winging it but it still seems risky.

I would at very least consult with your stake president before going through with this and he should probably consult with the assistant area auditor. An audit exception due to depositing church funds into a personal account would look very bad. It would probably be looked at closely at least by the area auditor.

Fair points. I certainly get the need to be cautious. Would be nice if we didn't have to tread softly and if we could get some direction on it. I'm pretty certain that there are wards already doing this.

Thanks for all the feedback, though. I was really curious at what others are doing.

jimlaudie wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:04 am Fair points. I certainly get the need to be cautious. Would be nice if we didn't have to tread softly and if we could get some direction on it. I'm pretty certain that there are wards already doing this.

Thanks for all the feedback, though. I was really curious at what others are doing.

We've done it. We kept good documentation and followed the 2-person principle.

There have been discussions about fundraising money collections in the past on this board. Venmo is simply the most recent method of collecting funds that are exchanged for goods or services in a fundraising effort. So the question isn't "How do we use Venmo," the question is "Who is authorized to collect funds, and are fundraiser funds handled in the same manner as donation?"

Funds from a fundraiser are not tithing. They are not other offerings, either. They are arguably not even donations. In my individual view, there is no restriction against someone other than the bishopric handling the funds. Think of a team of young women doing yardwork and immediately collecting money from the recipient, then turning the money over to be held in the AMFA account. In this view, Venmo-ing a central account has no more or less risk than any other fundraiser.

On the other hand, there are excellent reasons why having the bishopric handle the funds should be considered a best practice. There is a procedure already in place for safekeeping the funds and processing them. Members are also used to handing them over to the bishopric (although less so now, with the advent of online donations.)

Interestingly, reviewing the Handbook looking for guidance on handing fundraising money, it appears that's it's one fundraiser per ward per year, not per group.

Presumably, if YM and YW alternate years, then they can be separate. Otherwise, it be a combined fundraiser.

The only current church specs on fundraising I can find are these (perhaps there's others, I've been known to miss lots of things):
GHB 20.6.5 Fundraising Events
Help Center: Fundraising and Funding Activities
Nowhere is there specific instruction on who receives the funds. So from my reading, there's three steps to consider:
1) Can ward budget supply all needed funds?
2) If not, are funds from individual participants sufficient?
3) If not, should a group fundraiser be considered?

For (2), since individuals are responsible for providing their funds, if seems quite fine if they individually provide service and collect funds individually, and then hand them over to the Bishopric (and Venmo is a great tool for service receivers to provide money to the service givers). But if it's a group fundraiser, then it seems to fall more into the category of a "ward budget activity" and not an individual activity, so I'd think it's preferable if possible to have the funds directly given to a member of the Bishopric. But yeah, lots of grey area there, and I'm no auditor

As stated, Venmo is simply the latest (and not last!) iteration of donation methods, so I think the ultimate responsibility for questions should be directed to the local Bishop, who can consult his Stake President as needed. As with many precautionary measures, they seem burdensome until that exception occurs where disagreement about funds received becomes an ugly and contentious issue, and even the best intentions can be insufficient at that point.

BrianEdwards wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:42 pm I think the ultimate responsibility for questions should be directed to the local Bishop, who can consult his Stake President as needed.

Upthread, eblood66 suggested the stake president consult with the assistant area auditor.

I agree it's wise to get the auditor in agreement with what's going on.