2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

Anyone have any clarification/guidance on one adult driving multiple youth to a youth dance? Does this violate the two-deep requirements or not?

We have direction that says:

"At least two adults must be present at all Church-sponsored activities attended by youth or children."

I'm not sure someone driving them TO an activity is the same as being AT the activity. It also says:

"To protect youth and children, leaders should always avoid one-on-one situations with a youth or a child [...]"

And this would not be a one-on-one situation.

Note that even the BSA appears to make an exception to their two-deep Youth Protection requirements when traveling:

"Two adults are not required per car when traveling to meetings or other Scouting events. That is, as long as the 'no one-on-one contact' policy is followed."

So, I'm hoping that the Church has the same view so that we can more easily get youth to events -- but I couldn't find any specific guidance/policy on that at this point.

Thanks!

All I can find is Handbook 2: 13.6.24

When a Church activity for youth involves travel outside the local vicinity or staying overnight, parents should give written permission for their children to participate (see 13.6.13). Responsible adult supervision must be provided (see 13.6.2).

13.6.2 indicates two adults are required.

Which leaves open the question of travel "inside the local vicinity", as well as how "local vicinity" is defined. All I can do there is point to Handbook 0.3:

Leaders who have questions about information in the handbooks or about issues that are not addressed should direct the questions to their immediate presiding authority.

Absent finding a policy somewhere, all that anyone here can do is say how their stake handles it.

russellhltn wrote:All I can find is Handbook 2: 13.6.24
[...]
13.6.2 indicates two adults are required.

13.6.2 is what I quoted above also. As I said, it does not state that two are required while traveling necessarily. It says that they are required at "all Church-sponsored activities attended by children, youth, and young single adults." I might argue that traveling to an activity is not the same as the activity itself.

And I think that is especially true because they include YSAs in that. We have YSAs that drive themselves to events all the time -- or drive together in groups. We've never felt that we needed to have two adults in the car with the YSAs while traveling to a Church event -- only that there would be two adults to supervise once they got there.

So, I think I'd disagree that 13.6.2 indicates that two adults are required for the travel itself.

Absent finding a policy somewhere, all that anyone here can do is say how their stake handles it.

Agreed. I started there. They didn't know and said to let them know if I found any official policy. So, that is what I was checking on -- to see if I was missing anything. Looks like not, so far. Thanks!

jgoggan wrote:13.6.2 is what I quoted above also. As I said, it does not state that two are required while traveling necessarily.

The fact that 13.6.24 does reference 13.6.2 suggests to me that it DOES apply "When a Church activity for youth involves travel outside the local vicinity or staying overnight".

However, I'm guessing your situation doesn't fall into that category.

We'll have to wait and see what others come up with.

Agreed, I am not referring to what I would consider travel outside of the local vicinity.

Uh, well the first thing I thought of wasn't in the handbook, it was in the new youth protection training I just did online. One of the specific examples is a leader asking a kid to zip home to grab one more thing. The correct answer was to take others along. From the rest of the training, the implication is another adult. Having that policy spelled out a little more clearly would be nice, but the principle is to protect both the youth and the adults.

Most of the principle presented to protect the adult is "avoid one-on-one contact." That is repeated over and over. It seems to be strongly implied that the protection for youth is to have 2-deep and the protection for adults is to avoid one-on-one.

In any case, I agree it needs to be clarified.

This is actually a huge deal for us. We struggle with finding enough drivers and car space for Stake events. Having to have two adults per car would reduce our number of drivers while taking up more seatbelts...

So, just as a followup... I just called Risk Management to get their input. Their response was basically that 2-deep all the time would be "best practice", but that they understand that is not always possible when traveling. They said that, in those cases where 2-deep while driving isn't feasible, they recommend the Boy Scouts' "Rule of 3" which basically says that if 2-deep isn't feasible while traveling, then just make sure that you plan things so that there are always at least 2 youth with the adult in the vehicle. So that you never end up in a one-on-one situation.

I mentioned that the BSA has specifically addressed it with their "Two adults are not required per car when traveling to meetings or other Scouting events." and asked if the Church had a similar policy anywhere. They said that they did not have one yet, but with the recent refocus and training requirements, they would not be surprised if one came in the near future.

That is sound reasoning, assuming the adult picks up the youth together at one location, and drops them off together at another location. The sticky bit comes when they want the adult to pick them up one at a time, and drop them off one at a time. The only thing left to protect the adult would be if one of those youth was his child.

Here is a copy of an answer that I got back from the asking the question to the feedback at the https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/cal ... h?lang=eng website. My original question was "I am an adult brother, can I provide a ride to church or activities to several youth from the same family? Do I have to have another adult brother or my wife with me?"

Hello,

Thank you for your feedback.

Here is an excerpt from a Q&A that may be helpful:

Are we allowed to drive children and youth to and from an activity?
Yes, as long as you have multiple youth or children in your car and you are not in a one on one situation. This may take some extra planning to avoid situations where you have one youth or child left to drop off.

Thank you,

-Response Team

Good to have confirmation of what I was told by Risk Management in 2019 (see above).

I am curious -- was there something else referenced before that? I am curious what they are referring to by "here is an excerpt from a Q&A that may be helpful"? I'd like to see that original Q&A -- to have something written somewhere from the Church that states that (outside of responses to individual inquiries). I'd really like to be able to point people to something written by the church (such as the Q&A that they are referring to in their response to you). Do you know what it was? Or did they give a link, by chance?

Thanks!

I won't suggest that different principles or policies should apply, but the reality is that for those living in areas outside the western States, the issue with travel and rides can be a severe ongoing challenge. As members are often spread out many miles from each other, getting consistent attendance to activities is part of the fun of being a leader. I 100% agree with the Church's emphasis on children and leader safety, and it's our job to be proactive in planning and follow-up. It's just good for everyone to always keep in mind how this impacts the Church "out in the mission field", even if that doesn't change things.

What about when doing ministering assignments.
I have always felt strongly that adults should not be assigned in a companionship with a youth in ministering assignments unless they are family.

I have always felt strongly that adults should not be assigned in a companionship with a youth in ministering assignments unless they are family.

For reference, the current Handbook 21.2.2 has specific guidance for youth ministering assignments. Reading that entire section, my understanding is that (as appropriate) the Church recognizes the blessings for youth to be assigned to non-parent adults as ministering companions. And that this should be done carefully with full input from the parents, youth, and Bishop. And extra care should always be exercised in any one-on-one situations.

While I understand your perspective and the real concerns we all share, I would consider if there are appropriate ways to follow the guidance in GHB 21.2.2, that might be a blessing in many youth's lives.

I was suprised this wasn't added to the mix yet with a handbook reference? So here it is, as of 29 Jun 2022 subject to change...

"A man and a woman should not travel alone together for Church activities, meetings, or assignments unless they are married to each other or are both single."

20. Activities

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g=eng#p289

jgoggan wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:01 pmAnd I think that is especially true because they include YSAs in that. We have YSAs that drive themselves to events all the time -- or drive together in groups. We've never felt that we needed to have two adults in the car with the YSAs while traveling to a Church event -- only that there would be two adults to supervise once they got there.

YSAs are adults, so the policy doesn’t apply to them (“young single adults”).

terrysackett wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:12 am

jgoggan wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:01 pmAnd I think that is especially true because they include YSAs in that. We have YSAs that drive themselves to events all the time -- or drive together in groups. We've never felt that we needed to have two adults in the car with the YSAs while traveling to a Church event -- only that there would be two adults to supervise once they got there.

YSAs are adults, so the policy doesn’t apply to them.

Ok, so, first, this thread is quite old. The last reply was over a year ago. The reply you are referencing that I made was from over 4 years ago.

Second, I think you lost some context in the discussion here. To be clear, I was actually quoting from Handbook 2 at the time. It said:

"At least two adult supervisors must be present at all Church-sponsored activities attended by children, youth, and young single adults"

It was THE HANDBOOK that said that adults were required for YSAs. So, to just say "they are adults, so the policy doesn't apply to them" when the Handbook literally mentions them specifically seems a bit odd.

I think the context that was lost was that we were talking about something else in that moment. This discussion was originally about driving TO an event and what adults were required. But, along the way, we also started talking about driving while AT an event. So, everything I said above was accurate: when driving TO an event, YSAs don't need an adult because they are adults. That is what I said -- that we have YSAs drive to events all the time or drive together in groups and we've never felt the need to have adults with them, of course.

However, while AT the event, the Handbook was different and specifically says that even YSAs needed supervision by two adults.

Now, all that being said, it is interesting that the Handbook has changed since then. And some references by the Church haven't been updated to line up to it. For example, the "Protecting Children and Youth" training still contains this quote:

"At least two adult supervisors must be present at all Church-sponsored activities attended by children, youth, and young single adults"

And they have updated the reference for that quote to point to the new General Handbook section 20.7.1 instead of the old Handbook 2 reference that actually had that quote. What is interesting to me is that the new Handbook doesn't actually contain that quote any more! It actually says this:

"At least two adults must be present at all Church activities attended by children and youth."

The new Handbook has REMOVED the reference to YSAs in that section.

So, NOW, maybe even the Church agrees that YSAs do not require two other adults to be present. Or maybe they just realized that there already always were adults present at a YSA event. In any case, the old Handbook -- which was current when I wrote that in 2019 -- did include YSAs in the statement. The current one now does not.

My query is very specific. I am taking youth to a dance but am struggling to find another adult. However one of the youth is a close family member (also male,16)

Could I still take them to said dance

Your specific question seems identical to the original question. As you can see from the discussion, nobody has found (even with the new Handbook) any fully-defined policy regarding driving to activities. That said, one of the posts from July 2021, did include this response from the Church (not official, but it did come from a church employee):
"Are we allowed to drive children and youth to and from an activity?
Yes, as long as you have multiple youth or children in your car and you are not in a one on one situation. This may take some extra planning to avoid situations where you have one youth or child left to drop off."

My best suggestion is to do what the Handbook suggests when a specific answer is not provided in the written Handbook, which is to counsel with your immediate presiding authority.

Do we need to have the permission-slips in vehicles as they travel to a far activity? I am a girls camp leader and need to know if i need the drivers to have them as they drive the girls up to camp

General Handbook 20.7.7 convers travel.

russellhltn wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:55 pm General Handbook 20.7.7 convers travel.

While that is true, this is a non-answer that really doesn't answer the asked question at all, does it?

I always think these sort of "read the manual" answers are somewhat rude. Especially if they don't address the question being asked. That's why people are asking for help.

That section of the Handbook states that "parents or guardians must give written permission for their children to participate." It doesn't say at all what to do with those permission slips and whether or not a driver should be carrying them for the people in their vehicle.

It was a reasonable question that I don't think the Handbook addresses.

Note also that even the Handbook seems to indicate that that entire section is open to a bit of local interpretation! "Travel practices and the application of guidelines in this section should be consistent among units in the same area or coordinating council. Stake presidents may discuss and agree on travel practices during coordinating council meetings." Basically, it seems to indicate that what might be proper "travel practice" in one area or coordinating council might be different from those in another one -- and that Stake presidents should "discuss and agree" on what is right for their area.

That actually seems a bit surprising to me, but there it is.

Erika2350 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:53 pm Do we need to have the permission-slips in vehicles as they travel to a far activity? I am a girls camp leader and need to know if i need the drivers to have them as they drive the girls up to camp

In my OPINION, I don't think the drivers need them. I think permission is to be gathered, but I don't think the Handbook is clear at all on what needs to be done with those. I think if just you, as the Camp Leader, has them somewhere, then it should be fine.

Basically, this is just a liability issue. The Church doesn't want anyone suing later and going "I had no idea my daughter was going somewhere for 4 days!" if there is a problem.

20.7.4 says that the "person who leads the activity" should have a permission slip for each participant. Again, as camp leader, my opinion says that is you. (Although I could see an argument that if they do specific "activities" at camp -- such as a high adventure, then the "person who leads the activity" could shift to that person and they should have the forms with them. But I don't think driving them to camp is enough to cause that shift.)

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:39 am

Erika2350 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:53 pm Do we need to have the permission-slips in vehicles as they travel to a far activity? I am a girls camp leader and need to know if i need the drivers to have them as they drive the girls up to camp

20.7.4 says that the "person who leads the activity" should have a permission slip for each participant. Again, as camp leader, my opinion says that is you. (Although I could see an argument that if they do specific "activities" at camp -- such as a high adventure, then the "person who leads the activity" could shift to that person and they should have the forms with them. But I don't think driving them to camp is enough to cause that shift.)

I always keep the permission slips in the vehicle for each youth who is in that vehicle and when I’m the activity leader and we have the youth divided up into more than one vehicle, I have the other drivers do the same.
However, this brings up another point: how long do we keep the slips after the activity? I shred them within a day or two.

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:35 am While that is true, this is a non-answer that really doesn't answer the asked question at all, does it?

If it's not stated, then it's not a requirement coming down from "big church". The Handbook does state "Travel practices and the application of guidelines in this section should be consistent among units in the same area or coordinating council." so this may be a local requirement. In that case, the forum is unlikely to get an answer beyond "here's what we do".

The reason we point people to the Handbook is that is the authoritative answer (or non-answer). It's the local leaders (not us) who hold the keys to interpreting it (See section 0.4). We're just members of the church like you. The church already has too many people who think their opinions/interpretations are the "right way".

I'm not sure what the purpose is of having the slips with the driver. I can't say as I've ever heard of an activity where a driver was accused of kidnapping, or a child accused of being a runaway. As far as I know, it's just standard procedure to protect the organization when they go beyond normal activities. Handing them to the drivers risks losing them unless you go to the trouble of copying them.

Good question how long they should be kept. I'd be tempted to keep them on file in the bishop or clerks' office until any risk of a lawsuit has passed.

russellhltn wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am I'm not sure what the purpose is of having the slips with the driver. I can't say as I've ever heard of an activity where a driver was accused of kidnapping, or a child accused of being a runaway. As far as I know, it's just standard procedure to protect the organization when they go beyond normal activities. Handing them to the drivers risks losing them unless you go to the trouble of copying them.

I agreed with that in my original post -- that I didn't think giving it to the drivers made sense. But now that someone else has mentioned that they do it, I thought about it some more and could see a reason: because the permission slip is also the medical release form. So, if an accident were to happen or someone was injured during travel, then I can see an argument for the drivers having them in case of emergency.

Again, I'm not convinced that is best -- but I can at least see a reason for doing so. Because, again, they aren't just permission slips for the trip -- they are "permission slips" for medical assistance too.

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:37 pm if an accident were to happen or someone was injured during travel, then I can see an argument for the drivers having them in case of emergency.

A fair point. However, I'd still not want it to be the only copy. Not just to prevent it from being lost, but in the event of an accident with that car, the forms might not be obtainable "in the moment".

My first inclination also would have been to keep the release forms in the clerk's office (to protect against accidental loss/destruction during a serious accident)

Not being familiar with the form in GHB 20.7.4, I downloaded it to see what information was required. The instructions at the top of the form do state: "The event or activity leader should have access to all participants’ forms during the activity."

I learn something every day

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:37 pm I thought about it some more and could see a reason: because the permission slip is also the medical release form. So, if an accident were to happen or someone was injured during travel, then I can see an argument for the drivers having them in case of emergency.

That’s the reason I had drivers keep them with them, for lack of specific official guidance on the subject.