Intermediate Hymn in the new meeting format?

Just curious, now that we're a few weeks in to the 2 hour block, is anyone's ward doing anything differently regarding the intermediate hymn?

We may have to wait for a handbook update to clarify everything, but the October 6 Frequently Asked Questions seems to be as authoritative a document as anything. Under "Format for Sacrament Meetings", it says:

Sacrament meetings last 60 minutes and are focused on deepening conversion to Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and strengthening faith in Them. Allowing the ordinance of the sacrament to be the sacred center of members’ worship on the Sabbath requires careful planning, including minimal announcements and consideration of speakers, hymns, and musical numbers. Ward choirs may participate as local circumstances allow. Sacrament meetings begin and end with a hymn and prayer. A hymn also precedes the blessing of the sacrament.

There's no intermediate hymn mentioned, but there are specific mentions of opening, closing, and sacrament hymns. I would interpret this to mean that as a general rule, there is no intermediate hymn in the new format. Further, I would interpret this to say that if the bishopric decides that a congregational hymn would support the topic of the meeting enough to take that time away from the speakers, that's certainly their right to plan one, but it should only be done after "careful planning... and consideration".

That's just my interpretation, of course. I could be misreading, or the text here could be contradicted by something in the next handbook update. But, I was wondering if anyone else's ward has looked at this and decided specifically not to do intermediate hymns, or alternatively decided that it specifically supports their decision to do an intermediate hymn. Or is it just that every ward's still doing an intermediate hymn because we always have, and no one locally has rethought it yet (the most likely case)?

Again, I don't feel strongly enough about my interpretation to start telling people they aren't supposed to have an intermediate hymn. Of course, if you tell me we're always supposed to stand, or that the music director is the one to tell us whether or not to stand (14.4.3), or call it a "rest hymn", I'll fight you on all of those things.

In my ward, I think the intermediate hymn disappeared - at least for now. It may come back in once everyone has a good feel and has adjusted to to the 60 minute sacrament.

We still have the intermediate hymn in our ward. Last Sunday, it was shortened to the first verse only to keep the meeting on time.

davesudweeks wrote:We still have the intermediate hymn in our ward. Last Sunday, it was shortened to the first verse only to keep the meeting on time.

DITTO!

If the ward choir gets to sing, I think the congregation should be able to sing on other Sundays. Just my own personal opinion. (Full disclosure: I sing in the ward choir.)

Our music director has been choosing shorter hymns these past few weeks. But I was in a different ward Sunday that sang a whopping 5-minute closing hymn and still left one minute for the closing prayer.

adavidw wrote:There's no intermediate hymn mentioned, but there are specific mentions of opening, closing, and sacrament hymns. I would interpret this to mean that as a general rule, there is no intermediate hymn in the new format.

I don't see any change in the policy at all. The truth is that "as a general rule, there is no intermediate hymn" in the old format or the new format. An intermediate hymn was always optional (meaning not required, but allowed) and that is still the case.

adavidw wrote:Further, I would interpret this to say that if the bishopric decides that a congregational hymn would support the topic of the meeting enough to take that time away from the speakers, that's certainly their right to plan one, but it should only be done after "careful planning... and consideration".

I would mostly agree with this; I would take issue, however, with the characterization that a hymn would "take time away from the speakers." You could just as easily say that speakers take time away from the music. As the First Presidency has stated, "Inspirational music is an essential part of our church meetings. The hymns invite the Spirit of the Lord, create a feeling of reverence, unify us as members, and provide a way for us to offer praises to the Lord." In addition to the prescribed hymns, the presiding authority may well be inspired to have additional music, including an intermediate hymn -- or not. Both speakers and music can be inspiring and instructional.

In our two regular Sacrament Meetings since the change (we had a special Stake Conference), we still had the Intermediate Hymn, and this week we had a youth speaker as well, but in both meetings the last speaker had to cut his talk short. I was going to talk with the Bishop about it this week, but he was in interviews all day, and I didn't.

Ever notice how we have speakers who give talks, not talkers who give speeches?

In my ward, an intermediate hymn is usually performed between two speakers, and having only two speakers speak. That seems to work

cloyd wrote:In my ward, an intermediate hymn is usually performed between two speakers, and having only two speakers speak. That seems to work

This is an approach our ward leadership has been taking. Some weeks the Ward Choir sings instead.

We have 3 speakers each week and an intermediate hymn. The speakers are 1 youth and 2 adults. We have enjoyed having shorter, more focused messages presented in Sacrament Meeting.

Our bishopric just made the call that if there was two speakers we would have an intermediate hymn if three then no. We try to always have a youth speaker do 3-5min then 2 adults. But the youth speaker occasionally backs out or does not show up. Chorister always has a hymn in mind just in case.

Our Stake President has made it clear, speaker or member giving a testimony gets cut off at 5 min sure the hour. Not only does he want us to keep meetings to two hours so families can get home, but we also have another ward crammed in the foyer waiting to get their seats as soon as our ward finishes (even though there is a half hour)

I think “intermediate hymn” is an outdated and essentially meaningless term. Used in a 2-hour conference session it might make sense, but not in one-hour Sacrament service. My ward is trying to maintain the old ways (e.g. closing hymn in Relief Society) and “intermediate hymn” between speakers in Sacrament Meeting. Singing 3 congregational hymns should be enough, and I don’t think the headaches of trying to have a ward choir in most wards is worth the effort, either. We’ve been given a new “model” for our worship service. Let the old one go. Period. And if the bishop insists on another hymn in there somewhere, call it what it is—a congregational hymn.

judyth41 wrote:We’ve been given a new “model” for our worship service.

We have always called it a congregational hymn. And our choir sings at least monthly, sometimes more often. Our talks have improved because our speakers are more focused and most are only given 10 minutes, instead of the 12 they had before.

As for Sunday lessons, music is very effective when used as a part of the lesson, although you are correct that there is no longer an opening or closing hymn in second hour meetings.

But if there are no choirs in sacrament meetings, there will be no excellent choirs at stake conference.

jsorens6 wrote:We have 3 speakers each week and an intermediate hymn. The speakers are 1 youth and 2 adults. We have enjoyed having shorter, more focused messages presented in Sacrament Meeting.

I agree with this thought. My Ward has emphatically ended the intermediate hymns so that speakers have time, but having 2 15+ min talks does nothing to promote a reverent attitude in our meetings. Many of us feel an increased kinship when we're singing (worshipping) together in song. My brother's Ward, on the other hand, still sings and limits most talks to ~5 min with 4-5 speakers per Sunday. They're loving the meetings now. To each his own, I suppose

judyth41 wrote:I think “intermediate hymn” is an outdated and essentially meaningless term. Used in a 2-hour conference session it might make sense, but not in one-hour Sacrament service. My ward is trying to maintain the old ways (e.g. closing hymn in Relief Society) and “intermediate hymn” between speakers in Sacrament Meeting. Singing 3 congregational hymns should be enough, and I don’t think the headaches of trying to have a ward choir in most wards is worth the effort, either. We’ve been given a new “model” for our worship service. Let the old one go. Period. And if the bishop insists on another hymn in there somewhere, call it what it is—a congregational hymn.

Handbook 2 has been revised to teach us what the new model truly is.

• In Section 18.2.2 Sacrament Meeting, we see that element number 9 of sacrament meetings is "Gospel messages and congregational singing or special musical selections."
• Section 14.4.3 Standard Musical Elements in Church Worship Services refers to intermediate hymns and congregational hymns, as well as special musical numbers (including ward choir numbers).
• Section 14.4.5 Choirs teaches us that "Every ward should make an effort to have an active ward choir that sings in sacrament meeting at least once a month."

So it's clear that music continues to be an important part of our sacrament services, and that extends beyond the three required congregational hymns. Nothing in that regard has changed with the new model, for which I am very grateful. As the First Presidency has said:

“Inspirational music is an essential part of our church meetings. The hymns invite the Spirit of the Lord, create a feeling of reverence, unify us as members, and provide a way for us to offer praises to the Lord.

“Some of the greatest sermons are preached by the singing of hymns. Hymns move us to repentance and good works, build testimony and faith, comfort the weary, console the mourning, and inspire us to endure to the end” (Hymns, ix).

I am unable to find any printed instruction to determine whether Sacrament hymns can be used for Open and/or Closing hymns. They are listed in other topic headings other than Sacrament -- is that the answer to the question?

I would say the closest thing I'm aware of is the instructions in the Using the Hymnbook, in the "Selecting the Right Hymn" section. Nothing there states that a "sacrament hymn" cannot be sung for opening or closing hymn. But there is general guidance about what to consider when selecting the different hymns. If the theme of the sacrament meeting was maybe "the sacrament ordinance", or "the atonement", perhaps a traditional sacrament hymn might work well as an intermediate hymn for example.

My daughter was just called as the 'Assistant Music Chair' for the ward. Her specific calling is to find a 'Special Musical Number' for at least once a month. Her challenge is to find people who have the talents and would be willing to share them with the Ward. Good luck Michele.

sharisue wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 2:21 pm I am unable to find any printed instruction to determine whether Sacrament hymns can be used for Open and/or Closing hymns. They are listed in other topic headings other than Sacrament -- is that the answer to the question?

BrianEdwards wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:44 pm I would say the closest thing I'm aware of is the instructions in the Using the Hymnbook, in the "Selecting the Right Hymn" section. Nothing there states that a "sacrament hymn" cannot be sung for opening or closing hymn. But there is general guidance about what to consider when selecting the different hymns. If the theme of the sacrament meeting was maybe "the sacrament ordinance", or "the atonement", perhaps a traditional sacrament hymn might work well as an intermediate hymn for example.

At the beginning of Using the Hymnbook it says this (emphasis added):

The table of contents groups the hymns into eleven general categories. Hymns of similar subject and mood are generally found in the same section. However, being listed in a certain category should not limit the use of any hymn. For example, some hymns in the sacrament section, such as “How Great the Wisdom and the Love” and “I Stand All Amazed,” may be used for other purposes, and selected verses of several of the hymns in this section may be used for Easter. The index of topics will help you find hymns on specific subjects.