The LDS Linux Project

Anyone interested in forming a community to develop an LDS Linux?

Todd

I think moderator will guide you to another thread about it.
I'm interested on it.

todd wrote:Anyone interested in forming a community to develop an LDS Linux?

Todd

Todd, is this a repeat of the thread you started on 11th July 2007?

It was an interesting discussion back then with many good comments. For new people it could be helpful to explain in more detail what exactly "LDS Linux" mean.

dkjorgi wrote:Todd, is this a repeat of the thread you started on 11th July 2007?

It was an interesting discussion back then with many good comments. For new people it could be helpful to explain in more detail what exactly "LDS Linux" mean.

Actually, I disagree. If they want to know more about the idea or the project, they really should go to the other thread that you just posted a link to.

I am sorry. I am not meaning to offend anyone. My original idea of having the Church spearhead the project now sounds kind of naive. However, there seems to be enough interest within the LDS community to support a community driven project. Ironically, this has been the way Linux has been from the beginning. Yes, Netscape, Sun, Bitstream and many other corporations have made invaluable contributions. At the root, however, Linux has always been a grass roots project. I started a new thread to reflect my change in focus; away from expecting the Church to do the work and towards rolling up my own sleeves and getting some work done.

In regards to the type of distribution I have in mind, let me share a few links of other projects I would like to draw from. I plan on using the latest development tools from Puppy Linux. Specifically, the Woof distribution builder. Have no fear, I don't want LDS Linux to be another version of Puppy. My vision, rather, is to have something like Eeebuntu Base; Linux, a GUI and a browser. I have installed Eeebuntu Base on my Eeepc and find it very nice. I was able to install only the software I use. I like this. One thing I really dislike about most "live" distributions is that a default set of programs is installed; I don't like the clutter.

todd wrote:I am sorry. I am not meaning to offend anyone. My original idea of having the Church spearhead the project now sounds kind of naive. However, there seems to be enough interest within the LDS community to support a community driven project. Ironically, this has been the way Linux has been from the beginning. Yes, Netscape, Sun, Bitstream and many other corporations have made invaluable contributions. At the root, however, Linux has always been a grass roots project. I started a new thread to reflect my change in focus; away from expecting the Church to do the work and towards rolling up my own sleeves and getting some work done.

In regards to the type of distribution I have in mind, let me share a few links of other projects I would like to draw from. I plan on using the latest development tools from Puppy Linux. Specifically, the Woof distribution builder. Have no fear, I don't want LDS Linux to be another version of Puppy. My vision, rather, is to have something like Eeebuntu Base; Linux, a GUI and a browser. I have installed Eeebuntu Base on my Eeepc and find it very nice. I was able to install only the software I use. I like this. One thing I really dislike about most "live" distributions is that a default set of programs is installed; I don't like the clutter.

I'm not trying to scare you off from the forums nor the community. I think the short yet descriptive summary that you provided is terrific. I agree that this new thread should have a new focus from that of the old thread. For anyone wanting to see background information that got you where you are now with this newly focused idea, the thread previously linked to would be the place to visit.

I was able to install only the software I use

I never installed Puppy, neither use Netbook (eeePc) so I don't know how it works.
My experience is that often program's name are not self-explaned.
So I think new installation program must be done to give a real chance to choose the rigth and needed programs.

mkmurray wrote:Actually, I disagree. If they want to know more about the idea or the project, they really should go to the other thread that you just posted a link to.

I dont think the last thread left me thinking "yeah this is going ahead" as many challenges were raised and never really tackled so now that we have a new thread I was just wondering what was different about the "project" this time around so I could appreciate it better.

I guess I am also still trying to get my head around what exactly "LDS Linux" mean and what exactly it is all about.

todd,

I have to agree with dkjorgi. What exactly would you like to see in "LDS Linux"? In my opinion, if there are certain apps you would like see, then write the apps a distribute them. But, if you want to change something deeper in the OS, what would that be?

Are you wanting a more LDS friendly distro? If so, what would you suggest changing or adding? The kernel, the OS, the GUI?


Michael.

Many of these questions have been raised before in the previous thread that prompted the creation of this thread. This previous thread was linked to earlier, but here it is again in case people are missing it:

http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?t=560

Todd did make an effort to answer some of these questions and issues raised in that thread. If there are further concerns over the project idea or you feel there are still unclear terminologies, I still argue that the previous thread is the place to discuss them.

Todd has started this thread to discuss implementation of a new project and get a feel for how much community involvement there would be. The only reason I am making a fuss about all of this is because this thread is beginning to have the same purpose as the other thread, and having the same discussion on two different threads is less effective and less cohesive.

mkmurray,

My bad...I didn't see the other post, yet. Thanks.


Michael.

todd wrote:Anyone interested in forming a community to develop an LDS Linux?

Todd

When you say "develop", do you mean build on top of another version of Linux that has been built on top of another?

Or are you planning on starting from scratch?

The reason I ask this, is that while kernel hacking (not cracking) is fun it's also time consuming.

I've been using Slackware since it's release, which is one of the oldest flavours of Linux around and have it also running on an EEE PC. It's also a text based install and can be slimmed down quite well.

To "develop" a Linux, I would start with LFS Linux (Linux From Scratch) and build from there, but that's only my suggestion.

I would be interested in something like this depending on it's final specifications. I've lost interest in low level kernel programming and my assembly skills are rusty, however my C skills are still good.

Just my thoughts....

mkmurray wrote:The only reason I am making a fuss about all of this is because this thread is beginning to have the same purpose as the other thread, and having the same discussion on two different threads is less effective and less cohesive.

It could be because it is not very clear what
"Anyone interested in forming a community to develop an LDS Linux?"
actually mean.

If I look at the previous thread I dont know what the above mean and if I disregard the previous thread I still dont know what the opening line of this thread mean.

This brings me back to my original thought that I would like to hear what the purpose (ie outcome) of LDS Linux is ie a description rather than a one-liner. To people heavily involved in Linux it might make sense (I am guessing) but to others it wont.

Please see the attached Powerpoint Presentation.

Sincerely,

Todd Richardson

todd wrote:Please see the attached Powerpoint Presentation.

Sincerely,

Todd Richardson

Todd,

I really like the thought “LDS Linux” and it is great you are trying to drum up some support for a group to take it forward. Judging by the comments and discussion that went on with the previous thread I think it shows other people are also interested.

I have to admit I am not a Linux techie so I couldn’t help with that aspect but as a user I do see potential here and I would definitely install LDS Linux if it becomes what I imagine it will be.

I think your PowerPoint slides is a good start to further define and summarise what LDS Linux is and it would be helpful if you would enhance it to include everything LDS Linux will end up being and once everyone can see the whole picture then I think you will be able to drum up a lot more support from those Linux techies who we know exist in this forum.

The previous thread served the purpose of getting ideas on the table and from that the new purpose of LDS Linux could be specified.

How about we forget about mobiles, Blackberry’s and what will run on church owned PC’s because the issues surrounding them are simply too vast and instead concentrate on making LDS Linux the preferred O/S system used by LDS Families.

That can be done as a LIVE CD, installed on HD or through VMware etc.

See my message here for a list of things which I see LDS Linux could be.

To the program's list of project I would add:
1. GRAMPS for genealogy (or PAF through WINE ( this wine is not forbidden by WofW)):D
2, Firefox with LDS Toolbar (there is one already in English and Italian)
3. Skype
4. Thunderbird.
....

Most of all it's important to setup a site for download and upgrade!

todd wrote:Please see the attached Powerpoint Presentation.

Sincerely,

Todd Richardson

dkjorgi wrote:Todd,
...
I think your PowerPoint slides is a good start to further define and summarise what LDS Linux is and it would be helpful if you would enhance it to include everything LDS Linux will end up being and once everyone can see the whole picture then I think you will be able to drum up a lot more support from those Linux techies who we know exist in this forum.
...

How about a file format other than PowerPoint (probably a trademark)?

Doesn't Open Office have a presentation format?

(Just my personal opinion--not anything official.)

rmrichesjr wrote:How about a file format other than PowerPoint (probably a trademark)?

The presentation was simply text, so for accessibility I will reproduce it below:


The LDS Linux Project
Why, what and how. . .

Why

• The open source revolution allows us the opportunity
• Most major distributions do not address true end user needs
  • Stability
  • Ease of use
  • Small enough to download with limited bandwidth
• In the time of Alma, “. . . the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry. . .”
• To avoid what Alma has described, we try to help all of our members. We do this by helping them do for themselves. Having a Linux community will help us in this effort.

What

• Stable
• Easy to use
• Small enough to download with limited bandwidth
• Contains most popular software
  • OpenOffice.org
  • Firefox

How

• That is the purpose of this forum thread

Alan, thanks for the quick post of the text. I'll bite with one idea of how:

I would propose that one very efficient, perhaps the most efficient, way to achieve the stated goals would be to remaster an existing distribution. For one example of undoubtedly many, I use Mandriva's free version, and (with a few exceptions every so often) have found it to be stable and easy to use. It has GUI tools for system administration and a choice of desktop environments. A remastered installation CD could be as small as desired--the tradeoff being size vs. including a larger subset of popular packages. I suspect getting agreement on which packages to include may end up being difficult.

If there are other packages needed for LDS users (food storage stuff, etc.) then they could be included. At least with Mandriva, they could also be made available (through 'contrib') to the distribution at large, subject to copyright and license issues.

One big advantage of piggy-backing on an existing distribution is for security patches. It takes many hands to maintain security patches of any significant number of packages.

So we need?

1. A base distribution (preferably an existing one) with unneeded packages removed.

2. Packages to be distributed.

3. Programmers for both of the above

4. Alpha and Beta Testers

5. Some computer dummies (I find these people are the best to test a new program on)

6. Web servers (test site, main site, and support)

7. Money (to pay for web servers) and someone to put the above (Number 6) together.

8. Slimmed down for fast download. Here in Australia, 270 MB = 4 hours download. We don't have broadband here yet! Probably multiple stage installs. (Slackware has this. If you don't require a GUI, you only need the first disk)

9. Someone better than me at making lists

Just a few more thoughts to get the discussion going.

I can register the domain at www.1cheapdomains.com for $12 US and www.3ix.com offers 40 GB of space with 100 GB of bandwidth a month for $12 US a year. I can cover this. Shall I go ahead and register for both?

Todd

todd wrote:I can register the domain at www.1cheapdomains.com for $12 US and www.3ix.com offers 40 GB of space with 100 GB of bandwidth a month for $12 US a year. I can cover this. Shall I go ahead and register for both?

Todd

Before you do that, Todd. In my package with 1&1, I still have a free domain name available to register, ~100GB of storage left, and ~1TB/month of traffic available. I would be happy to make that available for "the cause", and maybe along the way I'll loosen my grip on MS OS's and start learning and using Linux more often.

Assuming there are Debian or Ubuntu packages for the programs you'd want to include, you could probably use Remastersys to create your own Debian- or Ubuntu-based distro. I'd recommend using one of these instead of creating your own distro from scratch.

I haven't used Remastersys myself, but the tutorial makes it look pretty straightforward.

http://www.geekconnection.org/remasters ... stool.html
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1073838

Edit: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, and GRAMPS all have Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty Jackalope) packages available. I haven't used GRAMPS before, but the rest seem to work just fine.

todd wrote:Shall I go ahead and register for both?

Before going any further, we would need to find out how many people are interested in developing this. It is a major undertaking.

Someone (person/team/community) would need to manage the project and it's direction. Same applies for a web site, and forums running on the web site. Both development forums and support forums.

Of those people who have expressed an interest, we would need to find out what skills, time, commitment, and areas they would be prepared/able to look after.

I don't know whether these forums would allow it, but we need to spawn several new threads regarding pros and cons different packages/distributions. Alternatively, set up some forums for the start up.

Once a distro is selected, we will need several versions. ie current version, and production version.

Out of the people here so far who have expressed an interest, how many have ever built a distribution? How many have ever recompiled the Linux kernel and it's modules?

These are just a few things to discuss, however running a web site with it's associated forums can be very time consuming, which is where I am hoping that people without experience in some of the above mentioned things would of of valuable experience.

Speaking of skills, I'll start with mine:

NEVER have built a Linux distro
Have built Linux from Scratch using LFS Linux (took 2 weeks)
Am able to reconfigure and recompile the kernel
C programming skills and have done low level c/assembly coding
Experience in installing Linux into small footprint devices, ie EEE PC, headless and embedded devices.
Have used Unix/Linux for 15 years and I still do most of my work on the command line
Web Developer/Programmer and have run setup, secured and managed forums (no longer interested in running)
Uncanny ability to diagnose issues via support forums with software
Skilled in multiple programming languages
Skills in getting wireless devices running under Linux

Non Skills
Bad at making lists
No management skills
Uncanny ability of being able to wreck a Windows PC in under 5 minutes (It's why I use Macs and Linux)

These are just a few thoughts. The one thing to keep in mind, is that this can be very time consuming and can take over your whole life if not careful. It can also lead to burnout and as we say here - It can damage your insanity!

Once it's all decided on, a project description and manifesto and a list of required positions for people to volunteer to look after would be good. It may be good for people to get an idea of the scale of the project.

Here you'll find my skills (only ones related to Linux):

NEVER have build a distro.
Many, Many different distro installation (most of all: Mandrake, Suse, Ubuntu), in many different hardware (desktop and laptop).
Program's compilation and installation.
C programming
Other languages such as Pascal (Lazarus), Java (NetBeans), PHP, ecc.
Programs translation (English->Italian): NtEd (all), NetBeans (start IDE then quit when other, with more time available, joined).
Logical problem solving and open mind

I've posted a reply at the other thread for this:

http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.ph ... #post28342


Michael.

RichardsonTB wrote:I am sorry. I am not meaning to offend anyone. My original idea of having the Church spearhead the project now sounds kind of naive. However, there seems to be enough interest within the LDS community to support a community driven project. Ironically, this has been the way Linux has been from the beginning. Yes, Netscape, Sun, Bitstream and many other corporations have made invaluable contributions. At the root, however, Linux has always been a grass roots project. I started a new thread to reflect my change in focus; away from expecting the Church to do the work and towards rolling up my own sleeves and getting some work done.

In regards to the type of distribution I have in mind, let me share a few links of other projects I would like to draw from. I plan on using the latest development tools from Puppy Linux. Specifically, the Woof distribution builder. Have no fear, I don't want LDS Linux to be another version of Puppy. My vision, rather, is to have something like Eeebuntu Base; Linux, a GUI and a browser. I have installed Eeebuntu Base on my Eeepc and find it very nice. I was able to install only the software I use. I like this. One thing I really dislike about most "live" distributions is that a default set of programs is installed; I don't like the clutter.

I have been wanting to do something like this for a while now. I am familiar with Puppy linux inside and out. I have some ideas but have only been tinkering with and ISO on my own but have recently thought about making a formal ISO and submitting it to someone in UTAH headquarters for approval for public release. If you are still interested, I would like to team up. Thanks!

My son studied with the dance school our local ballet troupe has set up for feeding dancers to the troupe. One of the teachers once dated the Brother that was hired by the Church to run our IT department. If what she says is true, which I think it is, based on what I have seen, his last employer was Microsoft. Under his direction, we have moved almost unilaterally to Microsoft products. (Please understand, I am not speaking on behalf of the Church, just as an educated observer and employee.) The focus has been support, specifically support worldwide.

I would love to work with you on this project. However, I believe it will have to be an extra-Church project (i.e. outside of the formal Church system).

Kind regards,

Todd Richardson

Windows will be the supported platform for quite a while, unless the church wants to pay for and hire a team to be Stake Technology Specialists, which doesn't seem likely. The truth is that windows is the most widely known and supportable platform out there. Directors of IT hired from Microsoft aside, the Church is too large of an organization to make a strategic decision around someone's previous employment. The church implements back-end technology across multiple platforms, as the solutions are strategically implemented, but more and more at an Enterprise level, app delivery platforms are independent of the back-end platform.

My true feelings are that Linux will never be a viable desktop platform, we are moving to Android, IOS and Windows as the players in the market, and Windows better be careful.

Folks wanting to create an LDS build would probably find better success in creating it under the "family safety" banner then changing the church's desktop. I'm sure there's plenty of users out there that would welcome a desktop build they could use and not worry as much about the darker side of the 'net - or about getting infected.

unless the church wants to pay for and hire a team to be Stake Technology

I don't think that the Church has to PAY or HIDE Linux specialists. I was clerk, Branch President, Teacher, eccetera, without having being payed or Hide by the Church.
I still serve as Building Specialist for free and I can serve in the same way as Stake Linux Specialist.
It seem to me that having Linux into Church Pc will prevent several "abuse" of it. If you don't install a package manager no one can install unwilled software. (Save through :/Configure - Make - Make install procedure.
And even if they know how, they don't know root password, so they can install them only at user level (if it's whorth of). So you can know Who installed What!
I don't think that Church Pc are hw update every week, if something doesn't work it will be replaces with an approved piece, so .. no matter at all.
Linux is not ready for Desktop? I install it for my 8 year old nephew and He was able to use it in a 10 minutes. Access internet, lanch programs, games, switch on and off. What need more in a Church Pc?

marianomarini wrote:I don't think that the Church has to PAY or HIDE Linux specialists. I was clerk, Branch President, Teacher, eccetera, without having being payed or Hide by the Church.

I think the point is that it's easy to find stake technology specialists who can administer Windows-based systems. Capable Linux specialists are much harder to find, so if the Church were to standardize on Linux for desktops, they might not be able to find local members to administer those systems and thus might have to hire people to do so.

But this is just another rehashing of a topic that is going nowhere. The Church has decided that clerk PCs will run Windows. We can make all the assumptions we want as to why that is, and we can give our personal opinions as to what the Church should do, but ultimately it's not our decision to make. We should probably leave it at that.

aebrown wrote:I think the point is that it's easy to find stake technology specialists who can administer Windows-based systems. Capable Linux specialists are much harder to find, so if the Church were to standardize on Linux for desktops, they might not be able to find local members to administer those systems and thus might have to hire people to do so.

But this is just another rehashing of a topic that is going nowhere. The Church has decided that clerk PCs will run Windows. We can make all the assumptions we want as to why that is, and we can give our personal opinions as to what the Church should do, but ultimately it's not our decision to make. We should probably leave it at that.

Points in reverse order:

Yes, whatever our individual opinions might be, those who have the stewardship to make the decision about what OS clerk PCs run are the ones who make the decision. It is better for those of us who like Linux to accept the decision as it stands and quietly increase our skills in all areas so when/if the day comes that the decision changes, we will be ready to raise our hands to answer the question of who knows Linux well enough to administer the machines.

Independent of that, I think there is often a significant underestimation of the number of people who are both capable of administering Linux and who are trustworthy and willing and etc. There were at least four I was aware of in my previous ward--one being the stake clerk when I moved away. Even in my current stake in rural Yamhill County, Oregon, there are at least a few in the stake who would be able to do the job.

Personally, I don't see either Windows or Linux as we currently think of them as the next supported platform, the desktop/mobile/app environment is transforming rapidly. Next Gen will likely be some kind of Android, Chrome, IOS device..... Just my own Opinion, I'm glad there is a push to move everything online... consumers can choose their preferred application platform, and run everything there. Linux, just never surfaced as a viable Desktop platform, and it's really too bad.

JohnShaw wrote:Personally, I don't see either Windows or Linux as we currently think of them as the next supported platform, the desktop/mobile/app environment is transforming rapidly. Next Gen will likely be some kind of Android, Chrome, IOS device..... Just my own Opinion, I'm glad there is a push to move everything online... consumers can choose their preferred application platform, and run everything there. Linux, just never surfaced as a viable Desktop platform, and it's really too bad.

Just for the record, please be aware that Android and Chrome are Linux-based. It's in the first line of each of these articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%2 ... _system%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS

consumers can choose their preferred application platform, ...

Yes, consumers can do, but I don't think that church pc will have different OS.
I agree that this are just free words because this kind of decisions pertain to the Brethren. We are speaking about OS not about what CHQ must do!
My dream is have an OS mantained by members to grant a secure and church certified system!
I suppose that dreams are still allow, isn't?

Chrome and Safari are both based on WebKit. Apple took the KDE html engine and created WebKit. The KDE license is LGPL. That is why Google was able to take WebKit, start the Chromium project, and create Chrome. Both Chrome and Firefox (based on the old Netscape code) are both working hard on HTML5. HTML5 is one of many technologies that may be important in the future.

I think that it is important to clarify what "Linux" is. Linux itself is what is called a kernal. Linus Torvalds created and maintains it. A kernal is much like "command.com" was in DOS. To use DOS, you also needed additional programs. In the case of DOS, these additional programs were written by the same company that wrote the kernal. In the case of Linux, these additional programs are written by many, many other organizations, each with their own agenda. WebOS, Android OS, Chrome OS, Firefox OS and many other OS's use the Linux kernal. The Android OS is as "mainstream" as Microsoft's and Apple's are. If you look on this forum, the Church is working hard to create apps for Android.

In conclusion, I would like to argue that Linux has arrived, and it is represented by a little green robot called Android.

RichardsonTB wrote: In conclusion, I would like to argue that Linux has arrived, and it is represented by a little green robot called Android.

Agree. But still remain the problem of who mange it.
Proprietary soft give no assurance of clear and secure policy.
Open Source give more guarantee being manage by many poeple. But can we assume that this will be so here and after?
Maybe we can think to a certain certification? Saying, an LDS certifying body that looks at the source and garantee it's safe and worthy or have we rely on the "gentile" grants?

Mariano Marini wrote that what is needed is...

...an LDS certifying body that looks at the source and garantee it's safe...

Why don't you and I do it? We are LDS. Together we make a body/quorum...

Regards,

Todd Richardson

RichardsonTB wrote:Why don't you and I do it? We are LDS. Together we make a body/quorum...

Why not? Checking hundred thousands lines of source will be a great challenge, more or less like cross the prairie with an hand cart, but we can short the travel assuming that think are good today and look only to the next changes!

Let's take a step back here and examine our priorities.

Here's what it sounds like we want:
• An operating system for desktop computers.
• An operating system that the Church can do whatever it wants with, forever, without having to pay for it every few years per computer.
• An operating system that has a bunch of specific applications on it.
• An operating system that is convenient to use for our purposes.
• An operating system that people with slow Internet connections can use conveniently.
• Self-reliance and independence.

So, are you really sure it's an operating system that will best fit those needs in and of itself? Of course, you need one, but I'm thinking thousands of free ones already exist, and many with similar goals. Why make another one? You could do these things instead (and it would be much easier):

• Select one or more (no need to pick just one) good, stable, very-usable, well-supported Linux distributions. I recommend Xubuntu, personally (but your views may differ).
• Make an install script that will automatically install all the apps you want (provided you know what they are, this should only take a few minutes, although you'll have to update the script with distribution updates). The programs are already maintained by the distro's community, and/or the developers. Of course, in the long run you might want to maintain them yourself, but in the short-term, that's a lot of work.
• Instead of worrying about the size of the OS, why not just ship out DVDs with all the software to individuals who request them? It would be a lot less time and effort, and require little expertise by comparison. If you disagree with that, I have my doubts that you realize how much work is involved in making an operating system.
• Most Linux distributions already give the Church (and everyone else) license to do pretty much whatever they want with them. Maintaining the software for the package manager might be your only real software concern as far as self-reliance and independence goes. Of course, there are hardware concerns, but that's not the topic I wish to introduce right now.

Really, when you take the OS size out of the equation, I don't see any short-term need for another Linux distribution. Long-term, yes, I think that would be great (and I think it'll happen, whether or not anyone else thinks so), but in the short-term, all you really need to do is to set up a custom installation of one or more Linux distributions, make an install script, get some DVDs, get stamps/envelopes, and donate a few dollars for postage here and there (or else have the person ordering them pay postage). One person could do that (granted, more might be better, especially if lots of people ordered DVDs), but they wouldn't need to be super awesome programmers or anything.

In the long-term, there are other things we can do (and other hurdles to worry about), but what I just outlined is pretty easy and simple, short-term, and could be done right away without even owning a server. Any number of people could do the same thing.

mark_h_dewey wrote:Let's take a step back here and examine our priorities.

I Agree 100%.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel, just to blow it up.
Now I'm retired so I can do some work on it. Hope have soon some news.
Thanks a lot.

Given that this thread was dormant for 5+ years, it might be wise to check the interest level first.

I'd think the ability to run (what I'd assume to be the Android version of) LDS Tools and Gospel Library would make it attractive.

I started this thread, but my priorities have changed. We each need to be focused on our families and our Church assignments, worshiping in the temple and finding names that we can take. The operating system world has settled down. For phones and tablets we have Android and iOS. For computers we have Mac OS and Windows. The software companies willing to port their software to Linux keeps shrinking. The idea of open source software has been turned on its head. What was once free, now requires you to purchase. The first example that comes to mind is Filezilla. The body of open source developers has shrunk. So many projects that were, no longer are.

In short, developing a customized install of Linux is a pipe dream. Don't waste your time.

Yes, I am interested, there is need for system security for LDS through Linux. Here is my email for contacting. otuotu020@gmail.com

Thanks,

Otu Otu

Wow I have spent some time looking at the many post and wonder why stop at Linux.... if we go tunnel lock down we can create a sub-net that services the good people that want to stay away from the internet. The Linux distribution you want can by choice lock out the world and make every home computer the same as the church NET. As a note I have installed Linux a multitude of times for people who tired of MS. Free is good and won't go away. But then I also think stakes should have servers that branches and wards go through to distribute the loads. The world is at a level of automation that can bring a lot of distributed services to the members lets turn the internet into a "secure pipe" instead of the "free for all" it is. Creating an intranet the members will get used to fast.

richardsontb wrote:Anyone interested in forming a community to develop an LDS Linux?

Todd

I want to join you in that project, both as Linux enthusiast and as a strong friend of Jesús Christ , lets form a group in the forum, add me as your friend

it has been 3 years since this updated, if anyone is still working on this, please add me in since i am a linux developing enthusiast, and it would be nice being part of the team )

Hello Trajano388:

I started this thread some time ago. At the time I was active in a micro distribution called Puppy Linux. Linux has become less than it once was. Now, it seems to have been relegated to being a server side platform. This may be because most vendors give the operating system away as part of buying the device. Fuchsia is Google's latest operating system. It seems more for embedded devices. Windows has been using NT at least since the nineties. iOS works for Apple, as does it's desktop os. When I was introduced to Linux, in the nineties, it was amazing because it was free. The last I checked, SUSE is gone, Slackware hasn't been updated. Most of the active Linux distributions are simply customizations of Ubuntu, which in turn is based on Debian. Xandros was a big up and comer, but it was bought out and disappeared. Corel Linux was fabulous, but got killed by it's developers. Fedora is simply a way for RedHat to get free labor. Oracle has a Linux. Lets see, RPM is Red Hat's package manager, DEB is the format that Debian uses, and then Slackware used tar.gz and others like it. Debian seems to be the lone survivor of truly open Linux operating systems. For us, us being a religious group, it is impossible to field what is necessary to create anything that is not simply just a flavor taken from one of the other flavors of Linux out there.

Hi RichardsonTB,

I appreciate your initiative in starting this thread. I agree that creating an independent distribution would be more work than we would likely be able to muster. However, just my personal opinion, but I see a lot of non-server use of Linux. Our numbers aren't huge, but there are some who continue to use Linux as our main home computing platform. Then, there are more of those who use small machines like the Raspberry Pi for hobby or around-the-house purposes. For myself, I use Raspberry Pi machines for watching remote sacrament meeting each week. For several months of job search, I used the same Raspberry Pi with a webcam for video interviewing, including live coding. While it's not very visible, if I am informed correctly, Linux is at least part of the stack in multiple cell phone operating systems, including KaiOS.

I do like Raspberry PI. It harks back to the old days. I wish that it used an Intel chip. It is impossible to find software that has been ported to an ARM processor. I think Raspberry absolutely has the right idea. A board that is cheep enough that you can build a Kiosk and so many more things. With Puppy Linux, the community (at the time) found that people can't afford full boards. Now, making a flavor of Raspbian that is focused on the Church of Jesus Christ seems doable. My email is [redacted]. Do you know how to add a mini hard drive directly to the PI board, not through the USB?

Regards,

Todd Richardson

P.S.: I do like KaiOS. Only used it on a flip phone though.

From the desk of: Todd Richardson
------------------------------
Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.

[Moderator edit: Redacted email address, because this is a public forum.]

I don't know of a way to add a mini HDD or SSD directly to a Raspberry Pi. There are many vendors of aftermarket accessories, so there might be something available commercially. With the model 4 having USB3 ports, that would not be a performance bottleneck. There's a fairly active Usenet newsgroup called comp.sys.raspberry-pi that may have information. A great deal of, maybe most, open-source software will compile and run on ARM. PM me if you want to converse more specifically about the Raspberry Pi--lest I get in trouble for off-topic posting. 1/2

@rmrichesjr @richardsontb

Yeah, Raspberry Pi computers aren't the only thing that use arm processors. Most phones and tablets do, too, of course. You can use Termux on them (which is basically a handy command-line Linux). I imagine programs compiled on Termux could potentially work on a Raspberry Pi and vice versa. I program on Termux with Nano and a bluetooth keyboard (you could always use Vim or Emacs as your text editor, though--but Nano is more than initially meets the eye).

If we were to change focus to a PI based Linux project, how would it be received in this forum? It is a lot more realistic than an entire OS.

I grew up on DOS. I am very comfortable with the command line. However, the original Puppy developer used simple scripts to get a lot of things done that GUI's do now. Those scripts were tacked to the menu interface. Also, I used a text editor on Puppy for years. It was called something like Leaf.

I have been watching Lubuntu for several years. It has moved to a QT based menu. I don't know what Raspian uses right now, but Lubuntu seems to think it is a better choice. Does it have a much smaller footprint? I think it does. I was scanning this forum and there is a fellow that was developing a Library type app, something like the mobile app. The last update was two years ago (on github), but it might be fruitful to try to bring some focus to that project. The thing that I worry about is the accuracy of the content. I asked many years ago for permission to print a copy of the pre 1981 Boof of Mormon. I did not receive it. I have no problem with that fact. However, it enlightened me about not representing something as "Church" when it really isn't. How to rectify this, I don't know. It would seem that keeping this project on the Church forum would help with this. It would allow trust to be made with the content group of the Church. If we can prove that we can keep the Lord's revealed truth pure, and protect it , then maybe they might share it with us.

What would a Church-oriented Linux project offer that the average Latter-day Saint (or maybe in a narrower scope, tech-oriented Latter-day Saint) would want, that isn't already available from somewhere else?

I am willing to conform to the will of the group.

I was thinking at least an app which contains the Gospel Library. It used to be online, but the other day I tried to use it and it directed me to download a program. I was using Windows 11. With the experience of One Laptop Per Child and Chromebooks, Raspberry Pi finally has the ability to find its way into even the poorest communities, maybe through grants. Anyway, I have downloaded Microsoft Edge for Linux. It works really well. The default OS (Raspbian) is focused on teaching students. With slight modifications, we should be able focus a version on genealogy, gospel study and the like.

The real piece de resistance would be authorized use of Church literature and scriptures. It seems that with guidance we can maintain the purity of authorized texts. I guess what I really want is the Gospel Library for Linux and a cleaned up version of Raspbian.

Perhaps this

viewtopic.php?t=29667

Has there ever been any project not backed by a commercial entity that has received Church authorization to use any Church-owned content?

While I have been accused of being an idealist on occasion, and while I have no official information, from what I have heard and seen discussed on relevant topics, I would estimate there is zero chance for a volunteer-based project to receive any authorization for any Church-owned content.

sbradshaw wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:01 pm What would a Church-oriented Linux project offer that the average Latter-day Saint (or maybe in a narrower scope, tech-oriented Latter-day Saint) would want, that isn't already available from somewhere else?

Community. Fellowship. Shared interests.

Eons ago, when 8-bit roamed the desktops and there were no real standard, the conventional wisdom was to find the the software you wanted to run, and then buy the Hardware/Operating System that ran it. To go the other way was to put the cart before the horse.

I think that advice still stands.

The question is, what software will members want to run (besides the church stuff)? I'm not real optimistic of any widespread acceptance of anything based on Linux simply because there's too many popular software packages that don't have a LInux version.

Instead, you may want to consider securing an existing OS to meet your goals.

rmrichesjr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:31 pm Has there ever been any project not backed by a commercial entity that has received Church authorization to use any Church-owned content?

While I have been accused of being an idealist on occasion, and while I have no official information, from what I have heard and seen discussed on relevant topics, I would estimate there is zero chance for a volunteer-based project to receive any authorization for any Church-owned content.

I'm a shameless idealist a large percentage of the time. So, I won't judge.

russellhltn wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:34 pm Eons ago, when 8-bit roamed the desktops and there were no real standard, the conventional wisdom was to find the the software you wanted to run, and then buy the Hardware/Operating System that ran it. To go the other way was to put the cart before the horse.

I think that advice still stands.

The question is, what software will members want to run (besides the church stuff)? I'm not real optimistic of any widespread acceptance of anything based on Linux simply because there's too many popular software packages that don't have a LInux version.

Instead, you may want to consider securing an existing OS to meet your goals.

I agree with your last sentence. I don't think we really need a new Linux distribution. We just need to collaborate about software to put on existing ones (there's not reason to stick with just one Linux distribution, IMO). We could easily just make a script to install it all automatically.

I don't think we're going for widespread acceptance and Linux-conversions here. So, I don't think we need to worry about what your *average* person would want, to be honest. I think it's more of a niche thing. I think it's important to have niche things, however. If we always cater to the general populace for everything we do, a lot of people are going to be phenomenally bored and underserved.

You could do the same thing with Windows and Mac, for that matter.

We could just make a package installer (because people aren't all going to want to install everything).

I'm not saying I'm against making a distribution; I just think this would be a lot easier, since it's something I would know how to do (and I have no idea how to make a Linux distribution).

Anyway, although I'm idealistic by nature (and I like that), I've been trained to make practical suggestions in recent years (via heavy use of Q/A sites, because people tend to complain or lecture any time someone says something idealistic). If the suggestions were disgruntling, I'm sorry about that.

richardsontb wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:07 am . . . Also, I used a text editor on Puppy for years. It was called something like Leaf.

. . .

Do you mean Leafpad, the text editor that comes with Lubuntu? Among the bare-bones text editors out there, that one is my favorite.

rmrichesjr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:31 pm Has there ever been any project not backed by a commercial entity that has received Church authorization to use any Church-owned content?

While I have been accused of being an idealist on occasion, and while I have no official information, from what I have heard and seen discussed on relevant topics, I would estimate there is zero chance for a volunteer-based project to receive any authorization for any Church-owned content.

This is okay. I trust the Church. Do you know what happened to the online content? It was always online until the new Windows app. Is it online for Mac?

marnofi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:10 pm We could just make a package installer (because people aren't all going to want to install everything).

I'm not saying I'm against making a distribution; I just think this would be a lot easier, since it's something I would know how to do (and I have no idea how to make a Linux distribution).

Anyway, although I'm idealistic by nature (and I like that), I've been trained to make practical suggestions in recent years (via heavy use of Q/A sites, because people tend to complain or lecture any time someone says something idealistic). If the suggestions were disgruntling, I'm sorry about that.

I like this idea. And you know how to compile the apps for an ARM processor?

marnofi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:33 pm Do you mean Leafpad, the text editor that comes with Lubuntu? Among the bare-bones text editors out there, that one is my favorite.

That is the name! . . .

I have been reading, The Book of Mormon; A Reader's Edition, edited by Grant Hardy. He is using the 1920 edition of the scriptures of the Church. He says it is in the public domain. It is the only way that the Isaiah chapters make any sense to me. Since I have asked before, maybe they will give us permission to use the 1920 one. Mr. Hardy says, "The 1920 text differs from the current LDS version by only about 150 words out of nearly 270,000--- not counting more than a hundred instances of "exceeding" being changed to "exceedingly."

Having said all this, I totally understand the Church needing to keep a tight reign on use of our scriptures. The Slackware website used to have a statement to the effect, "Slackware is a copyrighted name. If you name your project something similar to Slackware, people will come to us for support of your product that we know nothing about." The scriptures of the Church and the policies for their use are necessary just like the copyrighted name of Slackware.

I don't want to be tangential, so please let me know if I am.

I stand corrected. The Church content in online. Why would we need anything more than a web browser?

richardsontb wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:46 am I have been reading, The Book of Mormon; A Reader's Edition, edited by Grant Hardy. He is using the 1920 edition of the scriptures of the Church. He says it is in the public domain. It is the only way that the Isaiah chapters make any sense to me. Since I have asked before, maybe they will give us permission to use the 1920 one. Mr. Hardy says, "The 1920 text differs from the current LDS version by only about 150 words out of nearly 270,000--- not counting more than a hundred instances of "exceeding" being changed to "exceedingly."

No permission is required from the Church to use public domain content. Permissions.ChurchofJesusChrist.org doesn't give legal advice to Church members – their responsibility is to protect the content that the Church does currently have copyright for. So if you ask for permission to use a 1920 edition of the scriptures, they won't be able to give you permission – because they don't own it (it's public domain). Currently in the United States, works printed before 1926 are in the public domain.

In fact, because the revisions in the 1979, 1981, and 2013 editions of the scriptures were editorial, rather than creative*, my understanding is that even the newest editions are public domain, except for Official Declaration 2, which was published in 1978. The Church holds the copyright on introductions, chapter summaries, study helps, and page layout, but the actual text of the scriptures in English, except for Official Declaration 2, is in public domain. I've found these JSON files of the scriptures to be useful: https://bencrowder.net/scriptures-in-json/.

*Whether or not a new edition of a public domain work qualifies for new copyright protection depends on whether the changes are judged to be "original," "substantive," and "creative." For example, these types of changes generally can't qualify for copyright protection on their own:
• Punctuation changes and fixing typos (the changes aren't "creative").
• Changes that bring the work closer to its original manuscript (the changes aren't "original").
• Adding a table of contents (the layout may be protectable, but the list of books is not "creative").

This is the list of changes in the 2013 edition of the scriptures, for your own judgement – I am not a lawyer:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/ ... ts_eng.pdf

rmrichesjr wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:31 pm Has there ever been any project not backed by a commercial entity that has received Church authorization to use any Church-owned content?

While I have been accused of being an idealist on occasion, and while I have no official information, from what I have heard and seen discussed on relevant topics, I would estimate there is zero chance for a volunteer-based project to receive any authorization for any Church-owned content.

I've submitted requests to use Church content through Permissions.ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Some of my requests have been denied, and some have been approved. Here are a couple of examples:

• Last year, I was working with a few people on a project to gather and index stories from general conference talks. We requested permission to post talk excerpts on our website. The request was denied. (The copyright office doesn't always give reasons, but I think there was a concern about stories being taken out of context of the full talk. It was also a broad request – "stories from all talks since 1971" – that may have been too general.)

• I maintain an unofficial Church music website. At the end of 2019, I requested approval to post the lyrics from hymns, children's songs, and youth songs that are owned by the Church on specific pages of my website. The request was approved. (I had the pages already built and provided a working online demo. I think that being specific and providing context of exactly what it would look like, rather than a general concept, helped significantly. I think it also helped that I was adding content to an existing public website – something stable that could be used to establish trust – rather than a completely new project that could go any direction.)

Hope that helps!

richardsontb wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:46 am I like this idea. And you know how to compile the apps for an ARM processor?

Most open-source or source-available apps are pretty much as easy to compile for ARM as for any other architecture. It's fairly rare for anything distributed as source to be picky about what processor architectures it compiles for and runs on. Since the details would be mostly off-topic for the forum, I won't post here. Instead, if you find something you'd like to compile for ARM for which source code is available and send me a Private Message, and I'll be happy to help you figure out how to compile it.

sbradshaw wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:48 am I've submitted requests to use Church content through Permissions.ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Some of my requests have been denied, and some have been approved. Here are a couple of examples:
...

Thank you for that information and the example where you received permission. That's the first case I have ever heard of where permission was granted.

The process of creating a flavor of Raspbian is fairly straight forward. You install the version of Raspbian that takes you only to the command prompt. Then you start adding. First, of course, a desktop. There are a lot of packages you need to remember to install that you don't typically think of. I don't remember all the names, but you need gparted, the apt-get program, and many more. Below is a link as to how to create a master of your new flavor.

https://medium.com/platformer-blog/crea ... %20More%20

A different option is just to create an app that adds the Church content. I don't know how to create an app nor what should be in it.

Are you guys still interested in this? What is it you're wanting to do? Basically make your own Linux Distribution? I could maybe help with this. I'm running Nobara Linux, and have a decent amount of experience with Linux. I would be interested in helping with this project! Let me know.

William Wyatt
[email removed]

It would be great having and LDSx flavour of Linux.No backbone nor system update open to the kids say nothing about money spare for Microsoft fees.

I really like Ubuntu. Microsoft has its Edge web browser available for Linux. With Edge, you have Microsoft's own tool to run all of its web apps. If you need OneDrive, there is a proprietary app called Insync (https://www.insynchq.com/). It is expensive, but it works well. LibreOffice does well at editing Microsoft files without messing them up.

WilliamWyatt wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 11:30 am Are you guys still interested in this? What is it you're wanting to do? Basically make your own Linux Distribution? I could maybe help with this. I'm running Nobara Linux, and have a decent amount of experience with Linux. I would be interested in helping with this project! Let me know.

William Wyatt
[email removed]

honestly it would be awsome to have a linux flavor for the church

Do a complexity of the work we have two path for this.
1. Following D&C 89. Find a novel Emma Smith who goes to the prophet explaining the consequence of the actual proprietary IT.
Wait the answer from God about it through the prophet.
Then follow the instructions.
2. Democratically start a Committee of experts in Internet.

Note: Sorry for my bad English, I'm Italian.

Building a Church Linux distribution for consumer use is counter to Church policy. Let me explain. (Please let me know if any of my "facts" are wrong.)

I worked for the Church from 1996 to 2016. At that time the Church's policy was roughly as follows, "The Church should only be involved only in things that are unique to the Church and can't be done by an outside organization or company". I worked for Deseret Transportation. Every year they had to defend why, as a trucking company, Deseret Transportation was unique and filled a need only Deseret Transportation could fill. The short answer was that commercial drivers won't unload their own trucks and/or put the freight away if needed. (Keep in mind that storehouses are run by volunteers.)

The Church uses Microsoft or Apple for the preponderance of its computer needs. The logic being that no matter where a branch or ward is in the world, there is a Microsoft/Apple representative nearby. From what I have been told, the exception to this rule is the FamilySearch department. I have been told that they use Debian Linux.

richardsontb wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2025 3:59 pm The Church uses Microsoft or Apple for the preponderance of its computer needs. The logic being that no matter where a branch or ward is in the world, there is a Microsoft/Apple representative nearby. From what I have been told, the exception to this rule is the FamilySearch department. I have been told that they use Debian Linux.

There are at least a few Church employee developers who use Linux, and Chromebooks are now an option for ward clerks' offices. Though, most clerk work is now done online, and can be done from smart phones too.

richardsontb wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2025 3:59 pm The logic being that no matter where a branch or ward is in the world, there is a Microsoft/Apple representative nearby.

I thought the logic was more like there would always be a member who knows how to administrate it nearby.

Older computers in the FSC that can't run Windows, were changed to Chrome. Chrome is also an option for clerk computers. Chrome is used in a number of schools, so there should be a good number of members who know how to use it. So it appears the Church is moving in the direction of Chrome.

russellhltn wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2025 9:04 pm So it appears the Church is moving in the direction of Chrome.

Boy I hope not. If so, our stake is saved from Chrome for 5 more years as we're in the process of getting new PC's from FM. I worked with a Chromebook once and I really disliked the strict confinement it had. Personally, I would opt for an Android tablet with BT keyboard & mouse over a Chromebook.

Hi everyone,

I’d like to share a small proof of concept I’ve been working on.
It’s an LDS-oriented Linux OS distro, designed with a visual environment inspired by elements of the Church.
The system includes:

• Easy access to church materials
• Built-in Cloudflare proxy integration to block adult content, malicious websites, trackers, etc.
• A user-friendly environment that aims to be approachable for both beginners and advanced Linux users.

The vision is to create a space that not only provides useful tools, but also fosters an environment that invites the Spirit and helps people stay focused.

OS "screenshots": LDS Linux album

Looking forward to your feedback!