Tech Forum Archive

Projector mounting

46 postsstarted by aclawson 13,977 viewsoriginal topic

aclawson
Senior Member
#1
Does anybody know why there is such a strong prohibition against mounting projectors on the ceiling in meetinghouses? The local FM group said that it was one of the most commonly requested features but was explicitly prohibited in no uncertain terms from SLC and if the stake president felt really strongly about it he could escalate the issue up the chain himself but even then it was unlikely to be approved.
TinMan
Member
#2
If you only get one projector per building like we do now, which room would you select to put it in?

The chapel seems the only logical choice.
aclawson
Senior Member
#3
Exactly what we want. But prohibited.
Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#4
why would you want to permanently mount the only projector you have for a building in one room?

Kind of takes the flexibility of use away, as well as leaving an expensive piece of equipment in an unsecured location, not to mention the added expense needed to mount it.
aclawson
Senior Member
#5
Much harder to steal a projector mounted 30 feet off the ground, and if a stake wants to buy a projector with their own funds and mount it why aren't they allowed to? Stakes are allowed to buy extra projectors with SP approval, but aren't allowed to mount anything to the ceiling?
TinMan
Member
#6
aclawson wrote: Stakes are allowed to buy extra projectors with SP approval,
They are? Is there a limit as to how many the stake can purchase? Is this in writing someplace? We have been told projectors are a "media item" and can only come from the FM group.
aclawson
Senior Member
#7
I have seen wards/stakes buy their own projectors and never heard anybody mention anything about it... there's a one size fits all policy covering that as well?
Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#8
aclawson wrote:I have seen wards/stakes buy their own projectors and never heard anybody mention anything about it...
Just because it has been done does not make it the right thing to do.
aclawson wrote:there's a one size fits all policy covering that as well?
Projectors are considered media equipment that fall under the authorization for equipment in the meeting house media center, just like televisions. The FM group is responsible for funding and purchasing media center equipment. It would be a miss appropriation of funds to purchase additional projectors using the Local Unit Budget Allowance. For me I place it under the same category as computers, although others are sure to disagree with me.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#9
Gary_Miller wrote:Projectors are considered media equipment that fall under the authorization for equipment in the meeting house media center, just like televisions.
What's your source for that declaration?

At least in our stake, the projectors have never had a connection to the meetinghouse media center, and we've never received any counsel from the FM group along those lines.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
lajackson
Community Moderators
#10
aclawson wrote:Much harder to steal a projector mounted 30 feet off the ground
Another disadvantage is that it is much harder to thump the projector during broadcasts to get it going again. And we have to clean our projector filter once or twice each general conference weekend, too.

It is much more convenient for us to have it right there at the side of the podium, where we can do all that technical stuff, and still be able to plug in the cable from the laptop when we run home movies during leadership meetings.
aclawson wrote:Stakes are allowed to buy extra projectors with SP approval
Hmm. According to the FM Group, we have a projector because we have a satellite system. And even if our stake president were to approve buying an extra projector, he does not have enough authority to approve the additional budget allocation that would be needed to keep us from overdrawing our account if we decided to purchase one.
Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#11
aebrown wrote:
Gary_Miller wrote:Projectors are considered media equipment that fall under the authorization for equipment in the meeting house media center, just like televisions.
What's your source for that declaration?
From the list of materials for meeting house libraries.

Meetinghouse Library Materials
https://www.lds.org/callings/sunday-sch ... s?lang=eng

The equipment and furnishings listed below are also approved for the meetinghouse library. See your facilities management representative for information about these and other items.

EQUIPMENT AND FURNISHINGS
Quantity Item
1 Electronic keyboard
20 Chalk and eraser sets
2 Dry-erase markers and eraser sets
1 Closed-captioned decoder, if needed
1 Copier/Printer
1 Kick step-stool, if needed
1 Supplies (pencils, red pencils, pencil sharpeners, stapler, staples, tape, tape dispensers, etc.)
1 Camera, video, portable, 1 per stake center
1 Cart, for 32” flat-screen TV, 1 per building with 130-capacity or less
1 Cart, for 47” flat-screen TV, 1 per building with 170+ capacity
1 Cassette recorder and CD player combo, 1 per building
1 DVD recorder, for buildings equipped with satellite
1 Projector, LCD, 1 per motorized screen or 1 per building with 130-capacity or less
1 Screen, portable, 1 per building
1 Stand, projector, 1 per LCD projector
1 TV/DVD combo player, 1 per unit
1 TV, 26” flat screen w/USB port, 1 per unit
1 TV, 32” flat screen, 1 per building with 130-capacity or less
1 TV, 47” flat screen, 1 per building with 170-capacity and above
1 Tripod, camera, 1 per stake center
1 VCR/DVD combo player, 1 per building
1 Wireless microphone kit, 1 per stake center
aclawson
Senior Member
#12
Do you have anything saying that a stake president can't authorize the purchase of an additional projector? This list only states what FM is required to buy.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#13
Gary_Miller wrote: 1 Projector, LCD, 1 per motorized screen or 1 per building with 130-capacity or less
"Or less"? I wonder what the policy is for motorized screens?
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Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#14
aclawson wrote:Do you have anything saying that a stake president can't authorize the purchase of an additional projector?
See guidelines in Handbook 1 for LUBA Expenses, pay particular attention to what the expenses are not authorized. I think its the last paragraph in the section.
aclawson
Senior Member
#15
Ah. As an STS I have no convenient access to handbook 1.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#16
russellhltn wrote:
Gary_Miller wrote: 1 Projector, LCD, 1 per motorized screen or 1 per building with 130-capacity or less
"Or less"? I wonder what the policy is for motorized screens?
I know that when our stake center acquired our second motorized screen, the FM group simultaneously delivered a second projector. So that experience seems to fit that particular line of the guidelines.

That is somewhat ambiguous wording. It seems clear that you get 1 projector per motorized screen. It seems somewhat clear that you get 1 per building, but I don't know what the "130-capacity or less" qualifier means. It could mean that you get 1 per building if your building has a capacity of 130 or less, but that leaves open the question of what the guideline is for buildings with a capacity greater than 130. Or does the "or less" phrase mean that you might get less than 1 projector in some situations (which are not specified). It's not clear.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#17
aebrown wrote:Or does the "or less" phrase mean that you might get less than 1 projector in some situations (which are not specified). It's not clear.
That interpretation doesn't make a whole lot of sense. My guess is that small buildings don't get motorized screens, but they are to get a projector for use with conventional floor-standing or wall-mount screen.

But yes, that does leave the question open for larger buildings.
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aclawson
Senior Member
#18
aebrown wrote:I know that when our stake center acquired our second motorized screen, the FM group simultaneously delivered a second projector.
We have two motorized screens and two projectors (only one of which was made after the discovery of electricity though), so mounting one to the ceiling would make perfect sense in our case, leaving a 2nd projector available to be used anywhere in the building.

Sometimes I wish that we could feel like we're on the same team.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#19
Gary_Miller wrote:
aclawson wrote:Do you have anything saying that a stake president can't authorize the purchase of an additional projector?
See guidelines in Handbook 1 for LUBA Expenses, pay particular attention to what the expenses are not authorized. I think its the last paragraph in the section.
I believe that this reference is to HB 1, Section 14.7.2, last paragraph. But it says nothing about projectors, or even any category that could possibly include projectors, as I read it. So decisions about projectors would simply be subject to the general policies, and not any particular restriction.

However, before we get into any debate on that particular point, I would remind everyone that the handbooks are available to bishops and stake presidents, who have the responsibility to be aware of the principles, policies, and guidelines contained therein, and to exercise their priesthood keys for their particular area of stewardship to make specific decisions.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
aclawson
Senior Member
#20
lajackson wrote:Another disadvantage is that it is much harder to thump the projector during broadcasts to get it going again. And we have to clean our projector filter once or twice each general conference weekend, too.
FM pointed out that the church mounts projectors on ceilings all the time - in fact the ONLY buildings not allowed to use them are meetinghouses.
TinMan
Member
#21
aebrown wrote: At least in our stake, the projectors have never had a connection to the meetinghouse media center, and we've never received any counsel from the FM group along those lines.
So that means in your stake, you can go ahead and use budget allowance to purchase as many projectors as you want? That is so interesting. We are like the poster that said we can only have one because we have a satellite connection. We are in the "old stake house" so there was some discussion if even then we would be allowed to have one. But when we pointed out that we needed both the old and the new stake house to house everyone for General Priesthood, they let us have one.

I know the other buildings in the Stake would love to have a projector. If the Stake is allowed to purchase them, we will move forward and not tell the FM group. :)
aebrown
Community Administrator
#22
TinMan wrote:
aebrown wrote: At least in our stake, the projectors have never had a connection to the meetinghouse media center, and we've never received any counsel from the FM group along those lines.
So that means in your stake, you can go ahead and use budget allowance to purchase as many projectors as you want?
It was just a theoretical discussion -- we've never purchased a projector, and I doubt that the stake president would choose to use budget allowance funds that way.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
TinMan
Member
#23
Dang.

I could have said, "Well there is this stake in Sandy... "

:)
jdlessley
Community Moderators
#24
TinMan wrote:We are like the poster that said we can only have one because we have a satellite connection.
This may be another one of those "this FM manager says this ... and this other FM manager over here says something else...". In my previous stake, we moved into a new meeting house in November 2011. It was furnished with a projector, yet it has no satellite connection. The projector was supplied by FM and not purchased by the stake. So the question arises, is the requirement to have a satellite connection an old requirement that has since changed to accommodate webcast reception? I am guessing it has.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
mfmohlma
Senior Member
#25
aclawson wrote:Does anybody know why there is such a strong prohibition against mounting projectors on the ceiling in meetinghouses?
I have my suspicions it is not a technical issue at all (at least for the chapel). Think about it. (I had something else typed here, but deleted it for fear of seeming "inappropriate".)
Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#26
jdlessley wrote:So the question arises, is the requirement to have a satellite connection an old requirement that has since changed to accommodate webcast reception?
I think that at one time the requirement was to have a satellite system which has since change, but I do not think the reason for the change is to accommodate web-casting as much as its to accommodate the new curriculum programs. That would be why the projector is to be placed in the media center.
TinMan
Member
#27
mfmohlma wrote:I have my suspicions it is not a technical issue at all (at least for the chapel). Think about it. (I had something else typed here, but deleted it for fear of seeming "inappropriate".)
I have no idea. But my guess is it is some combination of cost (to install and/or to have a second "roving" projector for the building,) liability to install, and maintenance.

Setting up scaffolding in our chapel to service the lights is a pain.
aclawson
Senior Member
#28
TinMan wrote:Setting up scaffolding in our chapel to service the lights is a pain.
We have a scissor lift available.
mfmohlma
Senior Member
#29
TinMan wrote:
mfmohlma wrote:I have my suspicions it is not a technical issue at all (at least for the chapel). Think about it. (I had something else typed here, but deleted it for fear of seeming "inappropriate".)
I have no idea.
I guess I'll just say it: at least in some places I've been, if a projector were permanently mounted it would only be a matter of time before someone tried to use the projector during a sacrament meeting talk...
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#30
mfmohlma wrote:I guess I'll just say it: at least in some places I've been, if a projector were permanently mounted it would only be a matter of time before someone tried to use the projector during a sacrament meeting talk...
Or want to show something not "chapel worthy" in there.
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TinMan
Member
#31
aclawson wrote:We have a scissor lift available.
Lucky you. We too have a scissor lift, but it won't go over the center row of benches, but only works on the isles. We have to set up scaffolding to service those lights over the center pews.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#32
russellhltn wrote:
mfmohlma wrote:I guess I'll just say it: at least in some places I've been, if a projector were permanently mounted it would only be a matter of time before someone tried to use the projector during a sacrament meeting talk...
Or want to show something not "chapel worthy" in there.
That makes no sense to me. You can control access to the remote control just like you can control access to a free-standing projector. The issues are exactly the same. I can't see how that is an issue in the slightest.

I'm confident it is a matter of cost, appearance, and maintenance.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
TinMan
Member
#33
aebrown wrote: That makes no sense to me.
It makes a little bit of sense to me. If you had one projector and it was mounted in the chapel, there would be pressure to allow things not normally shown in the chapel. For example, if the cub scouts wanted to show pictures or videos of their annual cub country trip in a pack meeting, the only place they could show it is in the chapel, when perhaps you would normally show it in whatever room they usually have pack meeting in. Okay. So that is marginal.

But what if the YW want to have a "movie night" for their activity. "Well the cub scouts got to use it, why can't we?"

I can see potential difficulties with one projector in the chapel...
aebrown
Community Administrator
#34
TinMan wrote:I can see potential difficulties with one projector in the chapel...
I'll agree with that. But I'm not talking about "one projector." I was responding to aclawson's scenario, where he clearly stated that they had two projectors.

I certainly don't think it makes sense to mount your only projector, but where you have two, and one of them is primarily used in the chapel, it could be very helpful, and should not have the concerns that some have raised about inappropriate material being shown there.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
drepouille
Senior Member
#35
Several years ago when the Marriage and Family Relations classes were starting up, my stake presidency called three couples to teach the classes, and purchased three projectors for them. Since his stake clerk at the time was an FM employee, I assume this was done with permission of the FM.

When our stake center was built in 2003, we had one older projector, and the FM provided a second projector, since the stake center has two motorized screens. Since then, both members of the stake council as well as ward leaders have asked to borrow a projector for a lesson or fireside or whatever in another meetinghouse, and the stake presidency has allowed them to do that over my objections as the STS.

A couple years ago, the stake presidency just told all the wards to get their own projector. I believe the FM agreed that every meetinghouse in our stake should have at least one projector. I am not sure who paid for them. That usually depends on whether the stake/ward have given the FM enough lead time to program the money for next year's budget. All too often, they want it NOW, and are willing to pay for it NOW.
Dana Repouille, Plattsmouth, Nebraska
wiscombe.peter
New Member
#36
The issue in our building is that there is no good location to place the projector. The motorized screen comes down behind the choir seats, but it is a fairly small screen. If the projector is placed on a stand in the pews, the projected image is too large to fit on this (small) screen. If it is placed to either side of the pulpit, the image is skewed to the point of distraction, and if it is placed several feet behind the pulpit you have the double issue of the projected image being too small, plus the vertical angle of the projector is then so great that no amount of "keystoning" will correct it.

So we are forced to place the projector either on the pulpit itself (also an issue since the pulpit slants downward, and we are trying to project upwards) or on a stand immediately behind the pulpit. In both of these cases, the pulpit is rendered unusable. This isn't so much of an issue during straight broadcasts (like general conference) but if we are having any other meetings, we have to have an additional microphone set up beside the pulpit to use for opening prayers, speakers, etc.

The best location would probably be a ceiling mount, but as stated above, that isn't considered a valid option.
TinMan
Member
#37
wiscombes wrote:The issue in our building is that there is no good location to place the projector. The motorized screen comes down behind the choir seats, but it is a fairly small screen. If the projector is placed on a stand in the pews, the projected image is too large to fit on this (small) screen. If it is placed to either side of the pulpit, the image is skewed to the point of distraction, and if it is placed several feet behind the pulpit you have the double issue of the projected image being too small, plus the vertical angle of the projector is then so great that no amount of "keystoning" will correct it.

So we are forced to place the projector either on the pulpit itself (also an issue since the pulpit slants downward, and we are trying to project upwards) or on a stand immediately behind the pulpit. In both of these cases, the pulpit is rendered unusable. This isn't so much of an issue during straight broadcasts (like general conference) but if we are having any other meetings, we have to have an additional microphone set up beside the pulpit to use for opening prayers, speakers, etc.

The best location would probably be a ceiling mount, but as stated above, that isn't considered a valid option.
TinMan
Member
#38
A while ago, we had someone build a box with the bottom slanted to match the pulpit slant. It had a slot that went around the microphone. The box sat on the pulpit and made a flat surface for the projector. Or, come to think of it, the top of the box had a bit of an upward slant.

We since got a tall stand with removable, telescoping legs that sits on the floor and projects over the pulpit.
mlh78
Member
#39
For what its worth, we had the FM group buy a screen for our high council room and had their approval to wire and install a projector in that room. Then they got instructions from the Presiding Bishopric to hold all projector installations until further notice. If you have been paying attention over the last year or two, it is clear that the church is moving to a media-intensive approach towards instruction and training. My guess is that our leaders are suspending installations until they can figure out best practices and a uniform approach. After that, I bet we see guidelines on installations and increased AV resources.
rogerscr
New Member
#40
Lets hope that mlh78 is correct and that they are working on something. There was a similar hold on Sling boxes and high speed internet before that started rolling into buildings as well.

Having priced the cables etc to install a projector, the cost of the install with all the cables can easily exceed the cost of the projector itself. If you were to install a projector what resolution would give you the longest life? Halogen or LED or LED/Laser hybrid for the light. Do you run Composite and VGA... or do you have to add HDMI and maybe even DisplayPort? Then there is the electrician who has to run the power. This all adds up and with the continual changing of video standards I agree, if they have a hold we should respect it. This is after all the Lords money, whether it comes from FM or the Stake. Lets spend it wisely.
johnshaw
Senior Member
#41
mlh78 wrote:For what its worth, we had the FM group buy a screen for our high council room and had their approval to wire and install a projector in that room. Then they got instructions from the Presiding Bishopric to hold all projector installations until further notice. If you have been paying attention over the last year or two, it is clear that the church is moving to a media-intensive approach towards instruction and training. My guess is that our leaders are suspending installations until they can figure out best practices and a uniform approach. After that, I bet we see guidelines on installations and increased AV resources.
Problem is SP want it now, increased AV resources will only apply to NEW construction and retro-fitting all other buildings will be as they naturally turn over in the inventory process. TV's are currently slated with a 14 year life-cycle. I think we're in a tight spot at this point.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense
rogerscr
New Member
#42
But what does mounting a projector save you? Pointing it and getting it in focus? Adjusting the keystone maybe? These are things most users can do if they can connect a computer or DVD player to a projector. I won't argue getting more projectors, I know most Stakes around here have at least 2. I just don't see the need to mount a projector because the 'SP want it now'. The benefits of mounting it are just not that big.
johnshaw
Senior Member
#43
Mounting a projector would save me a great deal of time, every Stake, regional or scout meeting held in our meetinghouse these days needs a projector. (I say needs very loosely) and the time I've spent away from my family unlocking a cabinet to make a projector available is just not worth it. Unless we give the keys to everyone, but that guarantees the projector will eventually go missing.

I'd rather have flat panel's mounted in HC, RS, and Primary... seems a simple, elegant solution, leave the projecting for larger gatherings in the chapel that will require projector-size. Also freeing up the lcd's in the library for SS/YM/YW
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Gary_Miller
Senior Member
#44
JohnShaw wrote:I'd rather have flat panel's mounted in HC, RS, and Primary... seems a simple, elegant solution, leave the projecting for larger gatherings in the chapel that will require projector-size. Also freeing up the lcd's in the library for SS/YM/YW
Mounting flat panels that would only be used occasionally would be a waste of money. There is plenty of TVs in the media center to take care of most needs. And if you put the projector in the media center where it belongs then the librarians will provide the support when its needed.
johnshaw
Senior Member
#45
Any piece of equipment we use in our meetinghouses is used 'occasionally' I don't see how that comes into play.

The amount of equipment provided with every new meetinghouse that is unused or relatively never used is staggering. What is the scoreboard for in the Cultural Center, the lights for the stage, the volleyball net.

I can say that a TV is wheeled into a HC, RS, and Primary room, at least 2 or 3 times each Sunday, we have 3 wards and a stake sharing the meetinghouse. The future of leadership training, and the amount of video we have to consume is changing the way we NEED to use the rooms. Meetinghouse Material Centers are too small to house equipment, our buildings are shrinking, we're stuffing 3 and 4 wards in them before building more, with no storage options, I don't see any way to avoid mounting this stuff on walls. Walls in a meetinghouse are the most available resource we have in the church!
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense
harddrive
Senior Member
#46
I have read this message and it sounds like a lot of stakes are way ahead of my stake. In most of my wards, they have flat panel displays and at least one projector. The chapel had a screen the drops down and in most of my buildings, I really can't mount the projector in the chapel from the ceiling.

I believe the issue is with the chapel portion of the building. We currently have a brick wall behind our speaker and when we broadcast stake conference, the lines on the way will actually change color and can be really distracting. What we did to solve it was to place a curtain behind the speaker. However, we would like to like dry wall the are or something like wood paneling up so that we soften the wall.

I have talked to my high councilor over the building and he also works for the church at the bishop's store house. He told me that any changes to the chapel portion of the building has to be approved by someone in Salt Lake. I believe the presiding bishopric or the people who manages the buildings. I believe this would go for mounting projectors in the chapels as well. This is a fundamental change in the way the chapel is designed and function. I would love to be able to mount two projectors in my stake center chapel because we want to get to the point of doing multi-building broadcast and the second projector would be for those sitting on the stand to be able to see who is talking.