How to pay tithing online?

How does a member pay their tithing online once they have an lds.org member account?

jaredgj wrote:How does a member pay their tithing online once they have an lds.org member account?

In the most countries, including the United States and Canada, there is currently no way to pay tithing online using an LDS Account. Some countries in Europe do have means for making online donations, but I don't know the details. In such areas I imagine the stake and ward clerks are familiar with the procedures.

There have been hints that such a capability may become available some time in the future for the US and Canada, but those are only hints, and I really doubt that it would come very soon.

Members can set up payment via check with their financial institution. We get several of these every week.

jwnice wrote:Members can set up payment via check with their financial institution. We get several of these every week.

Yes, but that puts the burden on the local unit to make up the tithing slip and guess where the amounts go. Better to have it sent to your home address and you can turn it in with the slip.

We do it this way: http://mormonlifehacker.com/pay-your-tithing-online/

It sent straight to headquarters Just easier for us than trying to find a member of the bishopric at church all the time

brendalisa wrote:We do it this way: http://mormonlifehacker.com/pay-your-tithing-online/

It sent straight to headquarters Just easier for us than trying to find a member of the bishopric at church all the time

I believe the church frowns on members using this (it not being on a church owned domian and the word "hacker" in the address should be clues) because it puts a large manpower burden on a small staff.

brendalisa wrote:We do it this way: http://mormonlifehacker.com/pay-your-tithing-online/

It sent straight to headquarters Just easier for us than trying to find a member of the bishopric at church all the time

Did you see the note at the top?

We’ve been contacted by the Church Donations Department and asked to remove the links to the Electronic Donation Information form, among other things. This method of payment apparently wasn’t intended to be used by the general membership of the Church.

While it's automatic for you, the problem is it's not automatic for CHQ. That process was intended for exceptional situations such as service members serving a a war zone.

Note the "UPDATE: PLEASE READ" box at that linked site.

When there is not a special circumstances need you are placing an unnecessary burden on those who manually process those electronic donations. There is manual processing to connect the donations to the membership number.

Oh, I had no idea! I thought I was making it easier for them. I guess we'll just go back to the old way of doing it. Thanks for the heads up!

brendalisa wrote:Oh, I had no idea! I thought I was making it easier for them. I guess we'll just go back to the old way of doing it. Thanks for the heads up!

There are many who would like to be able to pay tithing electronically. In the U.S., we just are not yet there.

For those who really do not want to write checks, if you will look back in post 4 of this thread, you will find what I think is the best way to do this, without placing any additional burden on the ward clerk and bishopric. Use your bank bill pay system and have the check mailed to your home, then slip it into a tithing envelope with a prepared donation slip, and give it to the bishopric.

You didn't have to write the check, and the clerk did not have to fill out the donation slip.

brendalisa wrote:Just easier for us than trying to find a member of the bishopric at church all the time

And if you don't like having to "find a member of the bishopric" you can then mail your donation from home direct to the bishop.

davesudweeks wrote:

brendalisa wrote:Just easier for us than trying to find a member of the bishopric at church all the time

And if you don't like having to "find a member of the bishopric" you can then mail your donation from home direct to the bishop.

Just be sure to let your bank know when your bishop changes. We got a new bishop earlier this year, and after four polite reminders to one family, our previous bishop is still receiving autopay tithing checks in the mail...

travishayes wrote:We got a new bishop earlier this year, and after four polite reminders to one family, our previous bishop is still receiving autopay tithing checks in the mail...

Maybe the previous bishop should give the check back to the member and not to the new bishopric. I guess it is a good thing he did not move.

They've had online tithing in Australia since 2006, and its been in New Zealand for about 2-3 years now, and most all members pay their tithing that way.

TuiotiTM wrote:They've had online tithing in Australia since 2006, and its been in New Zealand for about 2-3 years now, and most all members pay their tithing that way.

Yes, if you read the earlier posts in this topic (and other related topics), you'll see that we're well aware that some other countries have had this capability for some time. This discussion is primarily related to US and Canada.

How does a member pay their tithing online once they have an lds.org member account?

It's not a matter of LDS Account rather than national bank systems.
As aebrown said, some (perhaps many) european countries can pay even online. But this rely to bank not Church system.

Hey Everyone,

I was looking for another forum and stumbled across this posting. I was surprised to see that no one knew about how to pay tithing online in the United states. I've been doing it for about 2 years now and most everyone I know does as well. I live in Utah. I've uploaded the PDF from the church on how to do it to my dropbox account. You are free to download it and use it and share it with whomever you like. It is extremely convenient and it doesn't work like the old school "Bill Pay" that sends a check for the same amount every month. Here you go! Have fun! [Link removed]
John Griffin

If you would kindly re-read this thread, starting with post number 8, you'll see that the general church membership in the US and Canada are discouraged from using this process at the present time, due to the high amount of labor required to manually process the donations at church headquarters.

Good Afternoon!
So I have been paying my tithing this way for over a year. I get paid once a month and I hate writing checks for tithing. Checks are not always deposited that same Sunday. Our ward has had problems with Bank of America losing two batches of donations a while ago. Needless to say, electronic bill pay is the way to go.
Should I stop using my bill pay and ACH to make my tithing payment? I think everything is done electronically, so I think there is no more manpower costs for CH. How would I be able to tell if this is the case?
Any advice?

milojury wrote:I think everything is done electronically, so I think there is no more manpower costs for CH. How would I be able to tell if this is the case?

Is there some change that causes you to think everything is done electronically? As far as I am aware, this is still a manual process at Church Headquarters. I would like to think they are working on making it possible, but there has been no announcement to my knowledge that anything has changed.

If you have any information about a change in policy, please share.

milojury wrote:Should I stop using my bill pay and ACH to make my tithing payment? I think everything is done electronically, so I think there is no more manpower costs for CH. How would I be able to tell if this is the case?
Any advice?

It depend on what country you are in. The last news we had was that for the US (and presumably Canada) it was still a manual process at the CHQ end.

We set it up through CHQ using the form they provided. Doesn't seem to be an issue. Am I wrong about it? If CHQ headquarters didn't want it done then why have an official form to do it?

While it's automatic for you, the problem is it's not automatic for CHQ. That process was intended for exceptional situations such as service members serving a a war zone.

We used to have instructions for how to do it, but we've been asked to remove them.

awbcolorado wrote:If CHQ headquarters didn't want it done then why have an official form to do it?

CHQ has an official form for exceptional situations (as russellhlt are trying to make clear since the beginning). Official and Exceptional doesn't exclude each other.

Interesting because when I just set up my account with Wells Fargo they showed me how to pay tithing right away.

jondcm wrote:Interesting because when I just set up my account with Wells Fargo they showed me how to pay tithing right away.

What country are you in? It is not automatic in the U.S. and you must fill out a form and send it into the administration office to set it up.

I've been doing this for a couple of years from Provo, UT. My credit union (America First) verified that they do an electronic transfer to the Church.

I have reports from online communities I participate with that there doesn't seem to be any kind of push back from SLC, people are calling the church and the department is sending them the form to fill out. I now have had 7 - 10 people from all over the country tell me they've setup accounts in the last year because they want to do bill-pay.....

Can we get an updated message from that department... I feel like a dork when I say something and the member can call the church and get around it.

OK, so I was so confused by this, enough to call into donations a few minutes ago. It seems the church isn't as reluctant as we've been communicating... it appears their reluctance is more the onslaught of announcing it as generally available, but the woman I spoke to said they in NO way are discouraging it, and in fact, if you use Wells Fargo it's nearly automatic.

JohnShaw wrote:Can we get an updated message from that department...

Feel free to contact the finance department about this.

We have been told they do not refuse any requests sent in using the signup form. They make the assumption that if a request was made then there is a valid reason for the request. They do not want us making the process public in the forum or the wiki for the reasons stated previously.

jdlessley wrote:

JohnShaw wrote:Can we get an updated message from that department...

Feel free to contact the finance department about this.

You may have posted while I was doing my update, but I did call.

We have been told they do not refuse any requests sent in using the signup form. They make the assumption that if a request was made then there is a valid reason for the request. They do not want us making the process public in the forum or the wiki for the reasons stated previously.

I realize this is what we've been told, but it doesn't appear to be accurate anymore. Your qualifier of 'assuming the request was made for a valid reason' is not one they make themselves. A valid reason to them is that the person wants to contribute through online bill pay and in no way is it discouraged.

JohnShaw wrote:

jdlessley wrote:We have been told they do not refuse any requests sent in using the signup form. They make the assumption that if a request was made then there is a valid reason for the request. They do not want us making the process public in the forum or the wiki for the reasons stated previously.

I realize this is what we've been told, but it doesn't appear to be accurate anymore.

Actually, I think it is still fairly accurate, although it's not as black-and-white as you would like it to be.

I was involved in the original discussion with the Donations Department back in 2009. I just got an official statement from a manager in that department, and I have permission to post it:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

I offer the following. Sorry if it was posted earlier...

I have two members who send me their tithing electronically. Sort of. I receive 2 checks each month made out to the ward, c/o me, and mailed to my home address. They come from a "payment proecess center" on the other side of the country from me.

I don't know how they set it up. The checks just started showing up at my house in the mail.

For those who want to pay on line, this may be an option that will satisfy both the official statement above, and those who want to pay on line.

However. Know this: It is a bit of a pain for the ward. MOST of the time, there is a "memo line" on the check that says, "Member name, tithing $XXX, FO $YYY and Ward mission $ZZZ" My clerk then needs to fill out the donation slip for him for our records. Otherwise there would be no paper trail. I suppose we could walk to the library and copy the check, but that is just as big a pain.

Once in a while, there is no memo line. We don't know what member it is for, or how the donations should be divided. Fortunately, we know which two members do this so we can call them.

I can only imagine the difficulty the Church would have, receiving hundreds or thousands of these types of donations. Either paper checks or automatic transfers. Two a month is difficult enough for us.

Why don't you pay on line like this but have the check mailed to you and you can turn it in with a donation slip? If we continue to have problems with one of our members not filling out the "memo" line, that is what I am going to ask him to do.

Honestly: It seems a bit lazy of the member to me: He is asking my clerks to do something (filling out the donation slip) that he should be doing. But I have been told I have a bad attitude about some things. I suppose I should just be grateful they are paying their tithing.

At this point it seems ridiculous that a person sets up electronic donations to be sent to a bishop or to themselves when they can easily be accommodated by Church Headquarters.

aebrown wrote:

JohnShaw wrote:

jdlessley wrote: I was involved in the original discussion with the Donations Department back in 2009. I just got an official statement from a manager in that department, and I have permission to post it:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

this is exactly what I did, I did not embellish anything in what I posted, if this manager has a preference, he ought to make sure it is communicated out to his team.

JohnShaw wrote:this is exactly what I did, I did not embellish anything in what I posted, if this manager has a preference, he ought to make sure it is communicated out to his team.

You may not have "embellished" but you are discounting the statement "The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit," which, by the way, is not a particular manager's preference (as you characterized it), but the position of the Donations Department.

You seem to think there is some glaring inconsistency between a clearly stated departmental preference for making donations in the local ward, and the fact that the response to an individual request to make payments through electronic bill pay is kind help given to the person to set up this method. I see no inconsistency. Clearly the department can handle any individual request, and so they do. But the department does not want a mass migration to electronic payments -- if they were to receive thousands of requests a day, they would be overwhelmed.

There is also no reason to assume that the only reason for the statement of preference for local donations is the burden on the Donations Department -- there may well be other good reasons. So I would urge people to respect that clearly stated preference, although if someone wants to contact the Donations Department in this regard, that is certainly okay.

TinMan wrote:However. Know this: It is a bit of a pain for the ward. MOST of the time, there is a "memo line" on the check that says, "Member name, tithing $XXX, FO $YYY and Ward mission $ZZZ" My clerk then needs to fill out the donation slip for him for our records. Otherwise there would be no paper trail.

I agree with this being a pain Luckily I only have two people in our ward who does this. If there was many more then we would be having a discussion.

TinMan wrote: I suppose we could walk to the library and copy the check, but that is just as big a pain.

While having a copy of a check would provide the information, I think a donation slip should also be filled out as well.

We solved the problem of having no copier in the clerk office by putting in a small printer with copy capabilities....
[Moderator note: this separate issue is discussed in the topic Extra copier in clerk's office. Please don't start discussing a new issue in an existing topic.]

We recently received instructions for us in the UK on this one from the area presidency - salient points below:

"Beginning 1 June 2013, we encourage all members who are UK tax payers and participating in Gift Aid to make their donations through electronic means directly to the Church’s Gift Aid bank account.
Electronic Gift Aid donations can also be made by standing order where regular fixed amounts can be paid directly to the Church’s Gift Aid bank account at intervals set by the donor."

dannykos wrote:We recently received instructions for us in the UK on this one from the area presidency - salient points below:

"Beginning 1 June 2013, we encourage all members who are UK tax payers and participating in Gift Aid to make their donations through electronic means directly to the Church’s Gift Aid bank account.
Electronic Gift Aid donations can also be made by standing order where regular fixed amounts can be paid directly to the Church’s Gift Aid bank account at intervals set by the donor."

Thanks for that info, Danny. For others reading, please note the above applies to the UK only. We know there are other countries already participating and can see the church is slowly moving in this direction. If and when they issue such a statement directed towards the US, I will probably jump in. Until then, I will continue to donate to my local unit as directed.

Gary_Miller wrote:We solved the problem of having no copier in the clerk office by putting in a small printer with copy capabilities.

I guess I missed the reason for the copier. We don't copy other checks from members. And when they forget to fill out a donation slip, we call them and fill it out for them.

My bank does not allow an extensive memo line, so if I were to use bill pay to create a check, I would have it mailed to my home and then turn it in with a donation slip.

lajackson wrote:I guess I missed the reason for the copier.

The subject came up because Tinman mentioned maybe making a copy of the bill pay check instead of a donation slip would work as a paper trail. But then stated they made a donation slip because it was a pain to go to the media center to make a copy.

The reason I asked for the copier was so I can make copies of bills that may need to be sent in with the payment/check. Most of these are for welfare expenses. It has also proven convenient for other things where all you need is 1 or 2 copies. Like I said our media center is upstairs in our building.

I have yet to figure out or understand why the clerks printer does not have copier capabilities. I can only guess that who ever is making the selection does not truly understand what the clerks office really needs.

lajackson wrote:We don't copy other checks from members. And when they forget to fill out a donation slip, we call them and fill it out for them.

If the member just forgot to put a slip in the envelope then we call them to find out where it needs to go and fill one out for them.

If its a bill pay check and it does not state specifically where it should go we put it all in tithing. Its enough that I have to take time to fill out a slip but I'm not going to take anymore time to call and find out where its to go.

lajackson wrote:My bank does not allow an extensive memo line, so if I were to use bill pay to create a check, I would have it mailed to my home and then turn it in with a donation slip.

This is what I did when I ran out of hard checks it took about five days to get the check but it was taken out of my account immediately.

Gary_Miller wrote: If the member just forgot to put a slip in the envelope then we call them to find out where it needs to go and fill one out for them.

If its a bill pay check and it does not state specifically where it should go we put it all in tithing. Its enough that I have to take time to fill out a slip but I'm not going to take anymore time to call and find out where its to go.

Just curious. Why do you call the member and fill out a donation slip if they forget to put one in an envelope, but you don't call a member when he forgets to fill out the memo line on a bill pay check? How is it different?

TinMan wrote:Just curious. Why do you call the member and fill out a donation slip if they forget to put one in an envelope, but you don't call a member when he forgets to fill out the memo line on a bill pay check? How is it different?

In most cases if we have a donation envelope without a slip its because the member usually filled out a slip at home then mistakenly forgot put it in the envelope. If it happens often then we would have chat.

On the other hand if your going to send it bill pay, I (the finance clerk) have to fill out the slip for you which takes time. If you can't take the time to type in the memo line where you want the money to go I'm going to assume its tithing.

I have spoken to all those who pay by bill pay (we only have a couple) and let them know our policy. If someone else starts paying by bill pay I will process it the same way and then speak to them about our policy.

While I'm a pretty responsive clerk and believe in providing good service. I also have a low tolerance for laziness I figure if you competent enough to use bill pay, which places the burden of filling out your donation slip on me, then you should be competent enough to let me know where you want the donation to go. Anything other than that is just laziness on your part and I'm not going to take time out of my busy schedule to call you every time you send in a check.

Gary_Miller wrote:While I'm a pretty responsive clerk and believe in providing good service. I also have a low tolerance for laziness I figure if you competent enough to use bill pay, which places the burden of filling out your donation slip on me, then you should be competent enough to let me know where you want the donation to go. Anything other than that is just laziness on your part and I'm not going to take time out of my busy schedule to call you every time you send in a check.

My experience was most members did not realize they were creating an extra burden. A friendly discussion about the extra work they were putting on the bishopric after church while everyone else in the ward was home with their families usually fixed it. We only had one member who had an automatic check mailed to the bishop - the bishop told them we would fill out the donation slip for them but if they did not specify on the check we would put the whole thing in tithing.

One or two was not a problem but if the bishopric had to fill out tithing slips for half the ward it would be a huge issue.

To say we're not there yet in the US is simply not true. I have been paying tithing online for at least 2 years, my Bishop recommended it. The tithing goes straight to SLC, bypassing my ward. I get a statement from the church every month or so via email. My ward gets no record of my tithing payments, which frankly I like.

wavedune wrote:To say we're not there yet in the US is simply not true.

Because electronic donations are possible on a limited bases (small scale) in the U.S. does not mean the U.S. banking system is able to make the necessary adjustments for full scale electronic donations for every member without manual processing at church headquarters.

If you read the rest of this thread you will see that electronic donations are manually processed at Church headquarters. This is because of a limitation with the U.S. banking system. This manual processing is necessary to connect the MRN with the donation. It is because of this manual processing and the limited resources available to process those electronic donations that the finance department prefers that only those with special circumstances, such as military in combat areas, use this donation method.

I think we need to stop defining the why for the donations group, because we truly do not have the complete picture.

It is clear that the donations group will setup ANYONE that calls and asks, but they do not, for some unknown reason, want it to be the recommended position at this time.

JohnShaw wrote:It is clear that the donations group will setup ANYONE that calls and asks

That is not at all clear. We have only anecdotal evidence that your statement may have been true for requests in the past, but there is no guarantee that it will continue to be true for any possible volume of requests in the future. All we do know is the official position of the Donations Department:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

JohnShaw wrote:. . . we truly do not have the complete picture.

I agree. Tithing is one thing. Other donations are another.

I do not wish to fork the thread, but when the Church opens up an online donation system for members in North America, it will need to be able to handle fast offerings, ward missionary funds, separate accounting rules for Saints and the Church in Canada, and a whole host of other situations if it is going to work properly.

It is not as simple a thing to do as people think, if the objectives of the Church are to guide the process.

That said, personally I do believe they are working on it. But I sure couldn't prove it in a court of law. [grin]

I offer only my observations :

I'm in at least 3 separate groups in facebook with members cut from a cross-section of the US... my anecdotal evidence is personal phone call speaking to the donations department as the stake clerk (my calling - I do not and have not posted the information in my stake choosing to follow the information here on the tech board and not what the person on the phone told me) and my observations of people (facebook groups) who are contacting the donations department not a single person reported being turned away or turned down. I'm not saying the church is ready, or even wanting it to happen, but it is soon to be an explosion. I've seen the form published on 3 facebook forums and I'm sure it's making it out there in the wild.

I just wanted to add as a member that I seem to be the only one in my ward that sends in bill pay checks. I've gotten the vibe that my ward isn't fond of it but when I ask if it's a problem, I've gotten the answer "no" and more people should do it that way. The posts that seem to imply people are lazy are hurtful. My husband isn't a member and we have an online budgeting system that we use for everything. It's helped keep the peace at our house to keep things streamlined. I never knew that paying this way created extra work. I wish people would just talk to work things out instead of complain and make assumptions. I do love the suggestion of just sending them to my house.

parje1 wrote:I just wanted to add as a member that I seem to be the only one in my ward that sends in bill pay checks. I've gotten the vibe that my ward isn't fond of it but when I ask if it's a problem, I've gotten the answer "no" and more people should do it that way.

As long as you've asked the ward clerk or the financial clerk what your particular ward's requirements are for documentation on donations via bill pay, and you are following their counsel, you're doing all that you can and should be doing.

Thanks, by the way, for sharing your perspective. It's helpful to have some input on this discussion from a member who makes donations this way.

parje1 wrote:The posts that seem to imply people are lazy are hurtful.

I agree. There's no call for assuming that people are lazy. I do think that people who use bill pay for donations should be sensitive to the fact that it may create a burden for clerks, but that may not be obvious. So a clerk may need to contact such a donor and kindly explain the ward's policy for donations made that way. In my experience, members are happy to comply -- they just may not be aware until someone reaches out to them.

parje1 wrote:I do love the suggestion of just sending them to my house.

Yes, that is a good idea that gives the donor the benefits of regular payments and not needing a checkbook, while still preserving the regular process of attaching a donation slip and handing the donation to the bishopric member (or even mailing it to the bishop).

aebrown wrote: I agree. There's no call for assuming that people are lazy. I do think that people who use bill pay for donations should be sensitive to the fact that it may create a burden for clerks, but that may not be obvious. So a clerk may need to contact such a donor and kindly explain the ward's policy for donations made that way. In my experience, members are happy to comply -- they just may not be aware until someone reaches out to them.

Humm....

Bill paying member receives his yellow copy that has been filled out by a clerk in the mail for his records, or a clerk has to track him down during the week and hand deliver it to him, and the bill paying member doesn't realize he is creating an extra burden? Is "clueless" a better description than "lazy?"

TinMan wrote:

aebrown wrote: I agree. There's no call for assuming that people are lazy. I do think that people who use bill pay for donations should be sensitive to the fact that it may create a burden for clerks, but that may not be obvious. So a clerk may need to contact such a donor and kindly explain the ward's policy for donations made that way. In my experience, members are happy to comply -- they just may not be aware until someone reaches out to them.

Humm....

Bill paying member receives his yellow copy that has been filled out by a clerk in the mail for his records, or a clerk has to track him down during the week and hand deliver it to him, and the bill paying member doesn't realize he is creating an extra burden? Is "clueless" a better description than "lazy?"

I expect the clerk never gave the yellow copy to the member so that probably isn't fair either.

My clerks always track down the member and give them the yellow copy. It makes reconciliation easier at tithing settlement. If the member chooses to not keep the yellow copy for their records then that is their problem. But at least we made the effort to give them the opportunity to know what we have interpreted their donations to be.

TinMan wrote:Bill paying member receives his yellow copy that has been filled out by a clerk in the mail for his records, or a clerk has to track him down during the week and hand deliver it to him, and the bill paying member doesn't realize he is creating an extra burden? Is "clueless" a better description than "lazy?"

I've never seen a clerk in this situation who feels a need to return the yellow copy to the donor; he would simply shred the yellow copy. The donor has his/her own electronic records of the payment and doesn't need any other receipt (aside from the year-end statement). It's interesting that your ward chooses to return the yellow copy; that clearly is an extra burden. Is that your ward's preferred process, or do you have a recommended process that is less of a burden on the clerks?

I think donors should take the responsibility to make their donation categories clear on the memo line of the bill pay check, or supply a donation slip (which is simple enough to do if they send the bill pay check to their own address). If the clerk doesn't know the categories for a donation, makes an assumption, and has to return the yellow copy week after week, all because he can't be bothered to communicate with the member about the ward's preferred process, then I don't think it's fair to label the member as "clueless" or "lazy."

aebrown wrote: I've never seen a clerk in this situation who feels a need to return the yellow copy to the donor; he would simply shred the yellow copy. It's interesting that your ward chooses to return the yellow copy; that clearly is an extra burden. Is that your ward's preferred process, or do you have a recommended process that is less of a burden on the clerks?

I think donors should take the responsibility to make their donation categories clear on the memo line of the bill pay check, or supply a donation slip (which is simple enough to do if they send the bill pay check to their own address). If the clerk doesn't know the categories for a donation, makes an assumption, and has to return the yellow copy week after week, all because he can't be bothered to communicate with the member about the ward's preferred process, then I don't think it's fair to label the member as "clueless" or "lazy."

I believe you are conflating several things in this thread aebrown, and disparaging me and my clerks in the process.

To recap my position:

If a donor sends in an automated bill pay to me, my clerks fill out a donation slip and return the yellow copy to the donor. That confirms what we have donated to which categories. If the memo line ALWAYS contained the donors intent, then we may not have to do this process.

But if the memo line is blank, and we get a check for say $1000.00 we have no idea if it is all tithing or not. AS I STATED PREVIOUSLY, we always call the donor and ask what he intended. At that point, the ONLY RECORD OF WHAT IS DONE is our record in the MLS system. At the end of the year at tithing settlement, the donor could say that he intended that donation to be split up differently than we did. We could say, "Well we called you and you said this..." At that point, it is our word against his. But if we were in the habit of always giving him the yellow copy, we could say "Check the yellow copies." If we shred them, there is no way to do that. I would think this would be a standard procedure for all, not just for me. (Sometimes it is a burden to have a CPA be my financial clerk. But he also keeps us out of trouble sometimes.)

(edit adding: BTW: This is the same process we do when we get a personal check and the donor forgot to include the donation slip: We call them, fill out the slip and give them the yellow copy. What do you do? Shred the yellow copy? If you do it for one way, you should be consistent for both, shouldn't you?)

When I have talked to our automated bill payers about this (and why should I have to do this on top of everything else I have to do?), some of them are appreciative and fill out a donation slip and give it to us on the weeks we get their checks in the mail. But a couple of them take the attitude that it is part of the clerks jobs to keep track of this for them. I would call that "lazy." Sorry if you call it something else.

Now: OTHERS in this thread have said that when the get an check with the memo line blank they just put it all in tithing and don't bother to check with the donor to see if part of it is fast offering or whatever. I agree that is lazy in the clerks part. But at the same time, the donor bears the brunt of the responsibility. Not the clerk. And if the donor doesn't understand this then I would call him "clueless."

If we continue to get any more automated bill payers (and we are up to about four now), then I am going to instruct my counselor in charge of the clerks to give the checks back to the donor and ask them to fill out the donation slip and give it back to us with the check. To me, that seems the simplest solution. If the donor doesn't agree with that, I am back to "lazy."

But that is just me.

TinMan wrote:Bill paying member receives his yellow copy that has been filled out by a clerk in the mail for his records, or a clerk has to track him down during the week and hand deliver it to him, and the bill paying member doesn't realize he is creating an extra burden? Is "clueless" a better description than "lazy?"

Our clerks do not deliver. They communicate with the member. If the member does not want the yellow copy, the clerk shreds it. If the member wants it, the clerk puts it in an envelope with the member's name on it and the member comes to the office and gets it.

Some of our members fill out donation slips in advance and give them to the clerk, keeping the yellow copy. When the donation check arrives, the clerk adds the white slip to the deposit data with the check. If there is a difference in total amount, the bishop coordinates with the member as they would with any other difference.

lajackson wrote: Our clerks do not deliver. They communicate with the member. If the member does not want the yellow copy, the clerk shreds it. If the member wants it, the clerk puts it in an envelope with the member's name on it and the member comes to the office and gets it.

I may steal this idea: Just keep all the yellow slips in separate envelopes in the clerks office in a file cabinet and give them to the donor at tithing settlement.

TinMan wrote:I believe you are conflating several things in this thread aebrown, and disparaging me and my clerks in the process.

I apologize if my comments seemed to disparage you or your clerks. I was concerned about what I perceived as disparaging comments about members, and that is what I was reacting to. And if my hypotheticals don't apply to your ward, then I was clearly talking about some other hypothetical situation -- not you or your ward.

My bottom line is this:

• I hope that members and clerks can work together in a cooperative -- not adversarial -- manner in this area.
• I think it's helpful to both sides if a ward's policy for bill pay donations is clearly laid out so that there is no misunderstanding. Different wards will have different policies, and that's fine. But it should be clear, to help both members and clerks.
• If a member follows their side of the policy, then clerks and bishopric members should cheerfully follow their side.
• If members fail to follow their side of the policy, I would recommend that clerks kindly remind them of the policy (although the bishop is clearly involved in setting the policy, clerks can do this communication -- the bishop has better ways to spend his time).
• If those same members continue to fail to follow the policy, it's entirely fair for the clerks to kindly return the donations to the donors. Hopefully that is rare.

You didn't answer my question aebrown. You said:

aebrown wrote: I've never seen a clerk in this situation who feels a need to return the yellow copy to the donor; he would simply shred the yellow copy.

Do you also recommend "simply shredding" the yellow copy if a donor gives you a personal check and forgets the donation slip and the clerks have to call and fill it out? If not, why is it different if the personal check donor forgets to give you the donation slip and the electronic bill payer forgets to fill out the "memo" line, and the clerk has to call and fill out the donation slip. I don't understand the difference.

TinMan wrote:You didn't answer my question aebrown. You said:

aebrown wrote: I've never seen a clerk in this situation who feels a need to return the yellow copy to the donor; he would simply shred the yellow copy.

Do you also recommend "simply shredding" the yellow copy if a donor gives you a personal check and forgets the donation slip and the clerks have to call and fill it out? If not, why is it different if the personal check donor forgets to give you the donation slip and the electronic bill payer forgets to fill out the "memo" line, and the clerk has to call and fill out the donation slip. I don't understand the difference.

You're correct that there is no difference. Thus I recommend treating the issues the same way.

I had to edit my post because I didn't read all 7 pages of comments, so sorry about that. I was going to mention that you could set up a direct debit with the church by filling out a form, but apparently that has already been discussed.

sigh.

And thus we return full circle...

We have one couple that pays through online bill pay. Its mailed to the bishop each month and we fill out a tithing slip for them and shred the yellow copy. For me it's a lot easier than counting $100 dollars in bills and coins. Members shouldn't be discouraged from paying their tithing in any way they please, as long as they can specify where they want the money to go to prevent delays in getting their donation processed.

TinMan wrote:Do you also recommend "simply shredding" the yellow copy if a donor gives you a personal check and forgets the donation slip and the clerks have to call and fill it out? If not, why is it different if the personal check donor forgets to give you the donation slip and the electronic bill payer forgets to fill out the "memo" line, and the clerk has to call and fill out the donation slip. I don't understand the difference.

We shred the yellow copy no matter if its one we filled out due to bill pay, a check without a slip, or the member just did not separate the slips. While I pretty customer service related the one thing I'm not going to do is chase a member down just to return a yellow slip.

I pay my tithing electronically. If the church has any problem with a large number of members paying tithing online then they should set up an automatic process to do this and save everyone the hassle. I have set up online payment methods for companies before - it took me all of one hour. Really not that big of a deal. Not an issue at all.
Having church members, ward leaders, and HQ all spending countless hours every week manually filling out and accounting for tithing slips is hilarious considering the small amount of time it takes to set up a consistent online payment system - just ask any IT professional which way is preferable.
I say have everyone pay to HQ, then maybe they will see how much an online system is really needed.
The Gospel is true - church members/bureaucrats, not always.

aaronklapheck wrote:I have set up online payment methods for companies before - it took me all of one hour. Really not that big of a deal. Not an issue at all.

At what cost? Unless you can say the transaction is the same or cheaper then a check - especially when you run your own bank - that's an issue.

To find the HQ form simply search for "Download the official church Electronic Donation Information form" in Google. Amazed how quickly I was able to find this.

aaronklapheck wrote:Really not that big of a deal. Not an issue at all.

It is for the Church Donations Department. Otherwise they would not have issued this official statement:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

russellhltn wrote: At what cost?

Free. I would be willing to create this system for free. The cheapest way is using a PayPal merchant back-end.

jdlessley wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:Really not that big of a deal. Not an issue at all.

It is for the Church Donations Department. Otherwise they would not have issued this official statement:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

Actually it really is not that big of a deal. Just because the Donations Department says it is a big issue doesn't make it one.

I work with bureaucratic processes like these every day of my life and I have seen countless times where a manual process is streamlined into a automated digital one with miniscule collateral - especially large-scale processes.

The Church is true - Church bureaucrats are not.

aaronklapheck wrote:

russellhltn wrote: At what cost?

Free. I would be willing to create this system for free. The cheapest way is using a PayPal merchant back-end.

Not really free for HQ.
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees
It seem that will cost at least 2,2% of transaction ammount.

aaronklapheck wrote:

russellhltn wrote: At what cost?

Free. I would be willing to create this system for free. The cheapest way is using a PayPal merchant back-end.

You mis-understand me - what's the transaction cost? PayPal doesn't do anything for free.

marianomarini wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:

russellhltn wrote: At what cost?

Free. I would be willing to create this system for free. The cheapest way is using a PayPal merchant back-end.

Not really free for HQ.
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees
It seem that will cost at least 2,2% of transaction ammount.

2.2% or even 3% is next to nothing when compared to the number of hours spent by ward members, clerks, and HQ every single week. Of course it will cost time/money to perform a transaction, it always does.
So lets look at this logically. Every transaction costs time/money so lets see which way ACTUALLY cost the church and its members less.

Method 1: Pay through local ward.
a. Transaction from member to ward
i. $ - transportation costs (if forgot checkbook, which happens to me all the time, and had to go and get it. Some wards have deacons pick up fast offering/tithing)
ii. Time, Reoccurring - must hand enter all information, no automation possible (looked for a digital version and found nothing).
iii. Time, Reoccurring - error handling. There are inevitably one or two slips that are not filled out correctly which waste time or cause problems later on.
b. Transaction from ward to HQ
i. Time Reoccurring - Information from tithing slip must be entered by hand into church system.
ii. $ - transportation costs (money/check has to be driven or mailed to a location where it can be deposited or sent to HQ - fuzzy on this process but seems very time intensive)
iii. Time, Reoccurring - error handling. There are inevitably one or two entries made by the clerk which waste time or cause problems later on.
Number of transactions: 2, low efficiency


Method 2: Pay directly through HQ.
a. Transaction from individual directly to HQ
i. Time, once - Fill out a BillPay form and emails it to the church.
ii. Time, once - member sets up automatic payment through his bank.
iii. Time, Reoccurring - If HQ enters the member number by hand (if this even needs to occur at all). If using PayPal, then $.
Number of transactions: 1, high efficiency


Sending money directly to HQ saves the church time & money, period.

aaronklapheck wrote:2.2% or even 3% is next to nothing when compared to the number of hours spent by ward members, clerks, and HQ every single week. Of course it will cost time/money to perform a transaction, it always does.

But the point is there is a cost. Most likely, a higher cost then the current method.

As for "worth it", that's not our decision to make.

If you want things to change, you've got three choices: Take it up with your Stake President to pass on to the Area Authority. Use the "Feedback" link on the main lds.org page (not the Forum of the same name). Or put it in your prayers. This forum is not a method of reaching the decision makers. At best we can alert developers of bugs and feature requests, but this kind of thing involves higher decision-making.

aaronklapheck wrote:I pay my tithing electronically. If the church has any problem with a large number of members paying tithing online then they should set up an automatic process to do this and save everyone the hassle.

Even if the church had that set up I guarantee you not all would pay that way. I work in a payment processing department for a large telecommunications company, and we accept every type of payment there is. Although customers can pay their monthly bills online by card or bank account (e-check), a large number still mail a paper check in, pay over the phone, or come in to a local payment center. So the ability to pay tithing online certainly would not eliminate the need for local clerks to count weekly donations. Also, you wouldn't believe the amount of online payments are rejected because customers miss-key their bank account information when attempting to process by electronic check.

aaronklapheck wrote:
2.2% or even 3% is next to nothing when compared to the number of hours spent by ward members, clerks, and HQ every single week.

Hours spent by ward members, clerks (and bishopric counselors) are donated and don't cost any money. By the time it gets to HQ, it has gone through a bank and the MLS system so is more or less "automatic" anyway.

Thanks you jasonfitt for saying what I have been thinking through this whole discussion. The Church donors are not all "tech savvy" using on line bill paying and such. In fact a very large number avoid it because they worry about hackers and identity theft. Until banks stop accepting paper checks, a lot of people will use them.

jasonfitt wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:I pay my tithing electronically. If the church has any problem with a large number of members paying tithing online then they should set up an automatic process to do this and save everyone the hassle.

Even if the church had that set up I guarantee you not all would pay that way. I work in a payment processing department for a large telecommunications company, and we accept every type of payment there is. Although customers can pay their monthly bills online by card or bank account (e-check), a large number still mail a paper check in, pay over the phone, or come in to a local payment center. So the ability to pay tithing online certainly would not eliminate the need for local clerks to count weekly donations. Also, you wouldn't believe the amount of online payments are rejected because customers miss-key their bank account information when attempting to process by electronic check.

You are correct. Not everyone would use an ideal method even if one was found. So lets use the real world and see what actually costs the church more time and money here and now.

Method 1: Pay through local ward.
a. Transaction from member to ward
i. $ - transportation costs (if forgot checkbook, which happens to me all the time, and had to go and get it. Some wards have deacons pick up fast offering/tithing)
ii. Time, Reoccurring - must hand enter all information, no automation possible (looked for a digital version and found nothing).
iii. Time, Reoccurring - error handling. There are inevitably one or two slips that are not filled out correctly which waste time or cause problems later on.
b. Transaction from ward to HQ
i. Time Reoccurring - Information from tithing slip must be entered by hand into church system.
ii. $ - transportation costs (money/check has to be driven or mailed to a location where it can be deposited or sent to HQ - fuzzy on this process but seems very time intensive)
iii. Time, Reoccurring - error handling. There are inevitably one or two entries made by the clerk which waste time or cause problems later on.
Number of transactions: 2, low efficiency

Method 2: Pay directly through HQ.
a. Transaction from individual directly to HQ
i. Time, once - Fill out a BillPay form and emails it to the church.
ii. Time, once - member sets up automatic payment through his bank.
iii. Time, Reoccurring - If HQ enters the member number by hand (if this even needs to occur at all).
Number of transactions: 1, high efficiency

If an individual wanted to donate in a way that ensure more of his time/money actually went to the church then they would use method 2 and NOT give locally through his ward. No church practice or procedure needs to change in any way. Just do it the right way NOW and it will work - no change needed.

aaronklapheck wrote:
If an individual wanted to donate in a way that ensure more of his time/money actually went to the church then they would use method 2 and NOT give locally through his ward.

Sorry, I need help with that. If I write out a paper check for $100.00 and give it to my bishop, doesn't $100.00 to to the church?

If i send $100.00 to the church via pay pal, doesn't $97.00 go to the church?

Looks like LDS Tech also encourages payments be made directly to HQ:
http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Donations_to_C ... adquarters

aaronklapheck wrote:Looks like LDS Tech also encourages payments be made directly to HQ:
http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Donations_to_C ... adquarters

But none of them follow the method you're suggesting.

TinMan wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:
If an individual wanted to donate in a way that ensure more of his time/money actually went to the church then they would use method 2 and NOT give locally through his ward.

Sorry, I need help with that. If I write out a paper check for $100.00 and give it to my bishop, doesn't $100.00 to to the church?

If i send $100.00 to the church via pay pal, doesn't $97.00 go to the church?

On the surface that is true, but if you account for what it actually costs to get your $100 to the church your $100 would actually be $93 or less (rough estimate). Here is the complete costs for me (time is money and I get about $35/hr):

Method 1: Pay through local ward.
a. Transaction from member to ward
i. $ (about $1 gas + $2 time) - transportation costs (if forgot checkbook, which happens to me all the time, and had to go and get it. Some wards have deacons pick up fast offering/tithing)
ii. Time, Reoccurring (about $0.5) - must hand enter all information, no automation possible (looked for a digital version and found nothing).
iii. Time, Reoccurring (about $1) - error handling. There are inevitably one or two slips that are not filled out correctly which waste time or cause problems later on.
b. Transaction from ward to HQ
i. Time Reoccurring (about $0.5)- Information from tithing slip must be entered by hand into church system.
ii. $ (time: $1, stamp/gas: $0.4) - transportation costs (money/check has to be driven or mailed to a location where it can be deposited or sent to HQ - fuzzy on this process but seems very time intensive)
iii. Time, Reoccurring (about $1) - error handling. There are inevitably one or two entries made by the clerk which waste time or cause problems later on.
Number of transactions: 2, low efficiency

Total costs to go through ward: $7.50. (this is ignoring a few of the inherent costs due to managing everything by hand like loosing a check or forgetting to turn in your slip at all and missing out on countless blessings).

russellhltn wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:Looks like LDS Tech also encourages payments be made directly to HQ:
http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Donations_to_C ... adquarters

But none of them follow the method you're suggesting.

OK, then don't use PayPal. Just use the method that currently exists and is in place which is to pay directly through HQ by filling out and turning in a BillPay form.

aaronklapheck wrote:OK, then don't use PayPal. Just use the method that currently exists and is in place which is to pay directly through HQ by filling out and turning in a BillPay form.

Which brings us right back to the public position of the Donations Department:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

You may choose to make disparaging comments about "bureaucrats" but the fact remains that the Donations Department has the people who would process such an application, and they have said that the "preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit." I see no justification for disregarding that statement.

There are two things that are my understanding as to electronic donations that bothers me. I understand that you cannot make contributions to ward missionary funds. I would be in serious trouble if ward members could not contribute to a couple of my missionaries that are struggling to meet their financial obligations. Serious trouble.

Secondly, I understand that when you make a fast offering donation, it goes to the general fast offering fund and not the ward fast offering fund.

I like the idea that my fast offering donation goes to help my ward members first.

aaronklapheck wrote:
On the surface that is true, but if you account for what it actually costs to get your $100 to the church your $100 would actually be $93 or less (rough estimate). Here is the complete costs for me (time is money and I get about $35/hr):

Your logic is fuzzy at best. For example, $3.00 in transportation cost would only apply if you made a special trip to the bishop just to pay your tithing. Most people don't. They bring it to church and hand it to me as I walk off the stand in Sacrament meeting. All the "cost" for the clerks to enter information is also fuzzy at best. It is their calling. It is the same as "it costs the church $35.00 every week for an instructor to prepare his lesson for an hour every week." It is his calling. That is what he is supposed to be doing. It doesn't cost the church anything.

TinMan wrote:There are two things that bother me on the form you linked to for electronic donations:

Please note that the post containing that link has been removed. The Donations Department has asked us not to post forms or links to forms.

Sorry. Edit my posts as you see necessary.

nevermind. I think I fixed it.

Thanks

aebrown wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:OK, then don't use PayPal. Just use the method that currently exists and is in place which is to pay directly through HQ by filling out and turning in a BillPay form.

Which brings us right back to the public position of the Donations Department:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

You may choose to make disparaging comments about "bureaucrats" but the fact remains that the Donations Department has the people who would process such an application, and they have said that the "preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit." I see no justification for disregarding that statement.

You can do it that way if you like. But I will choose to do it in the way that minimizes the error associated with the human handling of funds. Every transaction introduces additional sources of error, which costs the church time and money. If you don't want to believe that then so be it. But don't discourage others from trying to do things the best way possible.

aaronklapheck wrote:But I will choose to do it in the way that minimizes the error associated with the human handling of funds.

It is interesting that you say that because electronic donations that are processed in the Donations Department involve human processing to link the donation to the member.

aaronklapheck wrote:Method 1: Pay through local ward.
a. Transaction from member to ward
i. $ (about $1 gas + $2 time) - transportation costs (if forgot checkbook, which happens to me all the time, and had to go and get it. Some wards have deacons pick up fast offering/tithing)
ii. Time, Reoccurring (about $0.5) - must hand enter all information, no automation possible (looked for a digital version and found nothing).
iii. Time, Reoccurring (about $1) - error handling. There are inevitably one or two slips that are not filled out correctly which waste time or cause problems later on.
b. Transaction from ward to HQ
i. Time Reoccurring (about $0.5)- Information from tithing slip must be entered by hand into church system.
ii. $ (time: $1, stamp/gas: $0.4) - transportation costs (money/check has to be driven or mailed to a location where it can be deposited or sent to HQ - fuzzy on this process but seems very time intensive)

Just about all of that is at no cost to the church. It's either all handled by the member or members acting in their calling. The only cost is the cost of the banking system to process the check.

I don't know how it works in business account, but if someone were to write me a check for $100 and give it to me, $100 would go from his account to mine. I pay nothing for that. The check writer may not pay anything either. It depends on if the bank charges to have checks printed. So long as both of us keep sufficient balance in the accounts, neither of us pays anything for the transaction. That's a far cry from a 2-3% hit on everything.

The church has high-level financial types. They know far more then all of us combined.

aaronklapheck wrote:But don't discourage others from trying to do things the best way possible.

We will do what the church tells us we should do. (See public position statement in prior post.)

It takes me the most 2 hours to process donations using the current system. Thats opening envelopes, entering the data into the system, counting the money, preparing the donation and taking it to the bank. Even if the church payed by $20 the total cost would only be $80 per batch at the most. That a lot less that what paypal would recieve.
However considering that my time is free as I'm a volunteer it cost nothing.

The costs that aaronklapheck plugged in is way overboard when it comes to processing the donations. You cannot count costs to the individual for delivering or sending the donation to the bishop. You can only count the actual costs to the church of handling and processing, which is very little even if you considered electricity and equipment costs.

aaronklapheck wrote:But don't discourage others from trying to do things the best way possible.

I would never discourage anyone from doing things the best way possible. But what you describe as "the best way possible" is your opinion. I would be wary of encouraging people to act in ways that are contrary to the public position of the Donations Department. All I am doing is reminding people of that public position, which is:

The preferred method for making donations continues to be through the local ward unit. Those who have questions about electronic bill pay donations may call the LDS Donations Department at 801-240-2554 or email donations@ldschurch.org. Thank you.

aaronklapheck wrote:You can do it that way if you like. But I will choose to do it in the way that minimizes the error associated with the human handling of funds. Every transaction introduces additional sources of error, which costs the church time and money. If you don't want to believe that then so be it. But don't discourage others from trying to do things the best way possible.

Your agency is yours to do with as you please, and you may certainly choose to exercise it in the way you see fit. Your enthusiasm is contageous. You have suggested what you consider to be the best way possible.

I suggest from my own personal experience that the best way possible is to follow the counsel of our leaders.

Our military servicemembers in far-flung parts of the world appreciate the wonderful workers who handle their contributions. There are others who need the system in place at the Donations Department to be able to pay their tithes and other offerings. The Church goes to great length to make it possible for them to contribute that way.

Your financial benefit analysis is a bit faulty for reasons others have mentioned, and because you have omitted consideration of hundreds of steps required at Church Headquarters to process member donations on a general scale. You have not considered that Fast Offering needs to be returned to the member's unit so that both they and the bishop may fulfill the Lord's scriptural mandate.

I do not see under your analysis where ward missionary fund contributions are returned to the units and credited where the need is greatest under the direction of the bishop and stake president.

I believe it may take you a little longer than an hour to set up a financial payment system that meets the banking requirements of hundreds of countries around the world, where donations from members in one country cannot legally be transfered outside of the country and must be placed in national bank accounts according to local country law, which are violated even if the donation goes to Salt Lake and is returned to its legal location.

I believe two other things for the purpose of this post. First, all of this can be automated, and if the Church wanted to automate it, they would do so. Second, those blessings you jokingly speak of missing are pretty important to me, because they are very real. In fact, they have been spiritually lifesaving. I would not be here without them.

And perhaps that is why the Church does things the way they do.

I know. I know. Sacrifice didn't make sense to Adam, either. At first.

I was given this more thought and came up with this.

The banking system the church uses is the best and cheapest system available anywhere.

Every Stake, Ward, and Branch in the church has their own Bank Tellers who have the up-most honesty and integrity who strive for protection in their responsibilities. The best part is they ask for no monetary compensation at all. And the even better part is they get all kinds of compensation by the way of blessing from our Father in Heaven.

It cannot be duplicated in any other organization anywhere in the world.

It does not get any better than that.

Maybe it's time for a resume!
Church financial lay on Bank system. As you can read in other post, around the world there are Bank system that allow processing on line transaction without cost for sender or receiver. In this countries Church use electronic system. All funds goes in the right place with no human involve.
This doesn't absolve members to write down the slip, with tranfer receipt, for ward leader. Clerk still has to insert funds ammount in MLS.
The idea is not to prevent clerk service but money circulation.
The benefit for member is the ability to Pay during the week, at whatever time, and then report to leaders what they have done.
So I think that church is doing the best being this the real world!

Thank you all of your feedback. I now see my blanket statement of sending funds to HQ being the best way is not always true. If any of the money that would go in the tithing slip is for local purposes (mission fund, local fast offering, etc.) then sending the money locally is best.
Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing. I spoke with the bishop about this who said in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. In fact, he said that having all the different types of local funding schemes in place was causing them a big headache. It is my personal belief that if you send all money to church HQ it will be distributed in the best way possible - under the direction of the Lord through his servants. I almost feel it sacrilegious to specify where the money I send to the church ends up; as if I am saying "I don't trust the Lord to know where this money should go, so I will be the one telling Him how He should spend it." - A bit overdramatic, but that is just the way I feel. Because of this I lump all the money I send to the church for tithing, FO, missionary funds, etc under the label "tithing." - Definitely NOT an official recommendation of the church, but it is all going to be used in the way the Lord sees fit, which is good enough for me.

I know I speak of church bureaucrats in a not-always-right manner, but I have to say the overall process is the best I have ever witnessed. Regardless of the details in which transactions "should" occur, the way the church handles funds through volunteer efforts is The Best, even if the transaction-to-transaction process is not optimized. In short, I think whether you donate to the church (through HQ or locally), your money is going to the right place.

aaronklapheck wrote:Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing. I spoke with the bishop about this who said in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. In fact, he said that having all the different types of local funding schemes in place was causing them a big headache. It is my personal belief that if you send all money to church HQ it will be distributed in the best way possible - under the direction of the Lord through his servants. I almost feel it sacrilegious to specify where the money I send to the church ends up; as if I am saying "I don't trust the Lord to know where this money should go, so I will be the one telling Him how He should spend it." - A bit over-dramatic, but that is just the way I feel. Because of this I lump all the money I send to the church for tithing, FO, missionary funds, etc under the label "tithing." - Definitely NOT an official recommendation of the church, but it is all going to be used in the way the Lord sees fit, which is good enough for me.

This is not correct Each of the different categories on a donation slip are different areas where the money is allocated. For example FO money and tithing money is used for a different purpose. FO money is used strictly for welfare system where tithing is used for operations of the church. So they are not grouped together as your bishop suggests.

One other clarification FO funds are transferred directly to CHQ and is not a local fund source like Ward Mission or the Other account. However, local leaders are encouraged to not spend more FO money than what the members of their ward donate although they could if it was needed.

Gary_Miller wrote:However, local leaders are encouraged to not spend more FO money than what the members of their ward donate...

I'm not sure who is doing that encouraging for your ward, but that is not current Church policy. See this post.

However, if anyone wants to discuss this point further, please do so in the topic I linked to -- that point is not particularly germane to this topic.

aebrown wrote:I'm not sure who is doing that encouraging for your ward, but that is not current Church policy.

I'm not sure ether, I also know its not church policy. All I know is that the Bishop is always asking me how much we have is the FO account. When I tried to tell him we did not have an FO account he was instant to know the difference of how much we had taken in minus what we had paid out. As if he needed to be careful that we did not have a negative balance.

aaronklapheck wrote:Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing.

What you pay in fast offering and tithing should be separated because they are used for different purposes, as was mentioned by another poster. They shouldn't be grouped together and they should reflect what the member intended. Clerks can sometimes mistakenly put a fast offering donation in tithing, or the other way around. If this happens the member should alert the clerk so it can be corrected in MLS.

aaronklapheck wrote:Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing. I spoke with the bishop about this who said in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. In fact, he said that having all the different types of local funding schemes in place was causing them a big headache.

You may want to alert your stake president that your ward is in need of some training. But I'd imagine that having zero donations for Fast Offering (among other things) is likely to come to someone's attention.

aaronklapheck wrote:Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing.

Could this be because you are paying your donations electronically straight to CHQ so they place the whole check into tithing since there is no slip stating where the funds should go?

Gary_Miller wrote:

aaronklapheck wrote:Last year I noticed that when I payed fast offering and tithing, the money was all grouped together and was listed as tithing.

Could this be because you are paying your donations electronically straight to CHQ so they place the whole check into tithing since there is no slip stating where the funds should go?

Our service members who pay online to the Church say that there is a separate account number and payment information for different categories of contributions. In other words, they make one payment for tithing, and a separate payment for fast offering, etc., because of the way the banking and accounting system works right now.

When paying to a ward, if all of a contribution is being placed into tithing and not separated out according to the donation slip and the desire of the member, the clerks and bishopric are not following proper procedure.

Gary_Miller wrote:I'm not sure ether, I also know its not church policy. All I know is that the Bishop is always asking me how much we have is the FO account. When I tried to tell him we did not have an FO account he was instant to know the difference of how much we had taken in minus what we had paid out. As if he needed to be careful that we did not have a negative balance.

I think that this is due to prevent Stake President permission if disbursement exceed fund ammount!

marianomarini wrote:I think that this is due to prevent Stake President permission if disbursement exceed fund amount!

While I know there is a need for the stake presidents OK if the amount exceeds a specific dollar amount for a one time FO expense. There is no requirement just because the amount will exceed what the members of the ward has donated.

Gary_Miller wrote:While I know there is a need for the stake presidents OK if the amount exceeds a specific dollar amount for a one time FO expense. There is no requirement just because the amount will exceed what the members of the ward has donated.

Strange enough. When I was Branch President (some decades ago) it was not allow to have a loss ratio in wichever fund. This require to have permission to do so.
But I've no problem to confess my senility!

marianomarini wrote:Strange enough. When I was Branch President (some decades ago) it was not allow to have a loss ratio in wichever fund. This require to have permission to do so.
But I've no problem to confess my senility!

There have been changes in Church policy in this regard over the years. So I don't think at all that you are senile -- you are simply recalling something that once was policy, but no longer is.

aebrown wrote:There have been changes in Church policy in this regard over the years. So I don't think at all that you are senile -- you are simply recalling something that once was policy, but no longer is.

Thank you for your compassion. I'm about 64 but still play soccer, but change in Church sometimes goes faster and farster. General Handbook is changed twice since my release.
But this is surely Out Of Topic!

Gary_Miller wrote:

marianomarini wrote:I think that this is due to prevent Stake President permission if disbursement exceed fund amount!

While I know there is a need for the stake presidents OK if the amount exceeds a specific dollar amount for a one time FO expense. There is no requirement just because the amount will exceed what the members of the ward has donated.

The prior Stake President in our Stake wanted all wards in the Stake to be "net donor" wards (i.e. transmitted more FO funds to SLC than they used). This is NOT required by the church, but sometimes individual leaders have certain reasons for implementing local procedures. Since the new Stake President was called (he served as a counselor under the prior SP), there has not been one mention of "net donor."

It's a nice thing to be self sufficient as a ward or stake - even to the extent of soliciting additional sacrifices from some wealthy members (where appropriate) - to help meet increased needs. Not always possible though - and certainly should never be the reason to not render assistance when required.

I hope this gets resolved soon. More and more of the donations are coming as online bank generated checks and we do have to call and then fill out the donation slips. The number is doubling yearly for our ward, and this is the third year of seeing them from the regular members. We also have a traveling member that does time here, but never transfers his records (only stays 60 day at a time), and gets two paychecks while here and keeps forgetting he has to pay back in his home ward. Sometimes we end up sending the check via mail to his home ward bishop. He REALLY would like to have online pay. So would we.

Since the last time I posted here I've seen the form to sign-up for online bill pay distributed on multiple facebook groups (at least 5 or so) - not a single person that shared the document indicated that SLC didn't want anyone using the system. If people Call SLC and SLC sends them the form, SLC needs to expect that relatives, friends of that individual will also receive the form, that friends and relatives of those relatives and friends will receive it to the 7th son of the 7th son - there are likely so many already doing it that we need a better answer.

But my sister does, or my mother or my fill-in-the-blank is doing it doesn't serve a clerk well that is saying he's been instructed not to give out the information.

I can understand 10 years ago that the system might have been intended for a specific purpose, but those days are very long gone.

JohnShaw wrote:But my sister does, or my mother or my fill-in-the-blank is doing it doesn't serve a clerk well that is saying he's been instructed not to give out the information.

Our clerks refer them to the official Donations Department statement about 22 posts back in this Topic. The members then know the preferred donation method and they have a phone number and an email address if they have any questions.

Someone famous once said something about teaching correct principles and letting the members govern themselves. We provide the statement, which includes the principle, and the issue is no longer an item with which the clerk needs to concern himself.

lajackson wrote:the issue is no longer an item with which the clerk needs to concern himself.

Except for this:

GlenRH wrote:I hope this gets resolved soon. More and more of the donations are coming as online bank generated checks and we do have to call and then fill out the donation slips. The number is doubling yearly for our ward, and this is the third year of seeing them from the regular members.

It may be time to set some ward-level policy of what's acceptable.

GlenRH wrote:More and more of the donations are coming as online bank generated checks and we do have to call and then fill out the donation slips.

All that needs done is for you as the clerk to contact the individuals and let them know that if the check does not state what the funds are for the whole amount will be placed as tithing. After that there is no need to call them in order to fill out a slip.

russellhltn wrote:

lajackson wrote:the issue is no longer an item with which the clerk needs to concern himself.

Except for this:

I was referring to the comment by JohnShaw that a clerk is not able to give out information concerning online payments.

But as you mention, GlenRH does point out another problem, what to do when a bank check shows up without instructions from the member on how to direct the contribution. I think Gary_Miller has just the answer. After all, that's what we do when a regular check shows up in a donation envelope without a contribution slip and we are not able to contact the donor.

Whether paying in cash or by personal check, or using the convenience of bill pay and a bank check, the member still has the responsibility to let the bishopric and clerk know how the contribution is to be directed.

Clerks are good, but they are not mind readers.

lajackson wrote: After all, that's what we do when a regular check shows up in a donation envelope without a contribution slip and we are not able to contact the donor.

We don't. The clerks either give it back to me to keep until next week when we can ask the donor (especially if it is cash), or if it is a check, we mail it back to them with a slip to fill out along with a sticky note asking them to turn it back in.

Then the donor can allocate the funds as he/she sees fit. Usually mailing it back a few times will self correct the habitual person who turns in a donation without a slip.

I can't tell you how frustrating this is as a member. I handle ALL of my finances electronically. I pay my bills online. We are taught that we should pay our tithing FIRST. However, I can't, because I have to write a check to do it. Thus, my tithing (since I can't do it online) automatically becomes the LAST thing I pay -- and I end up feeling guilty for that.

Every time I research the topic, I get this story of "the church prefers that you pay at your unit" -- like it's some sort of sin to want to pay your tithing online. I don't write checks. OK, I write one check a month -- tithing and fast offerings.

Even the people who fertilize my lawn will take electronic payments, but I'm sinning if I want to pay my tithing electronically.

The church has some amazing technology, so why is it that this is the one area where they are determined to lag the rest of the world by 20 years?

ssonderegger wrote:Every time I research the topic, I get this story of "the church prefers that you pay at your unit" -- like it's some sort of sin to want to pay your tithing online. I don't write checks. OK, I write one check a month -- tithing and fast offerings.

I know this topic is quite lengthy, but it has been mentioned multiple times that it is indeed possible to use electronic bill payment services to make donations to your local unit. There's no reason at all that you would not be able to pay your tithing first, do it electronically, and do it at the ward level. By no means is it any kind of sin to want to pay your tithing online.

Every bill payment service I'm aware of has the ability to send a paper check. That's the option you will need to use at this point. It's best for you to counsel with your ward financial clerk and/or bishop to understand how your ward would like this handled:

• Some wards are fine with you directing that the BillPay check is sent directly to the bishop, and you detail the breakdown by donation category on the memo line of the check.
• Other wards want you to deliver a donation slip to the bishopric that can be matched up with the BillPay check that is sent directly to the bishop;
• If your ward doesn't like either of those options, you can always send the BillPay check to yourself (made out to the ward, but with your address), and then you put that check with a donation slip in a regular donation envelope. That's clearly some hassle, but you still benefit from the automatic payment feature and you don't need to even own a checkbook.

Last update from Italy.
We are asked to NOT give a receipt of our online offerings payments to local leaders.
This means that unit will be informed throught MLS of our offerts.
This way prevent loss of local information from donors. Now I can pay my offerts online and forget any other requirements.
A small Italian proud!

marianomarini wrote:Last update from Italy.
We are asked to NOT give a receipt of our online offerings payments to local leaders.
This means that unit will be informed throught MLS of our offerts.
This way prevent loss of local information from donors. Now I can pay my offerts online and forget any other requirements.
A small Italian proud!

Thanks for the news! This is very encouraging, especially the part about MLS keeping updated with all your donations. I think if we can exercise some patience (I know to some it will seem like a great sacrifice ), the day will come when this will roll out to the rest of the church.

Is there any reason there is not an online form you can fill out for donations along with an electronic payment? Does anyone know if this is in the works? It certainly is not good if I just fill out a bill pay and someone else has to fill out a slip to register the donation, but there are automated systems that can do this kind of stuff.

CodyAPhillips wrote:Is there any reason there is not an online form you can fill out for donations along with an electronic payment?

Unknown. But if you look back over the thread, you'll see plenty of speculation.

CodyAPhillips wrote:Does anyone know if this is in the works?

Not unless a church employee speaks up.

CodyAPhillips wrote:Is there any reason there is not an online form you can fill out for donations along with an electronic payment?

This could be done only with a centralized database (MLS) AND bank system!
The last is what is missing and probabily, at present, impossible to get!
The problem can be overcome having just one worldwide bank account (for all the country involved) and a web site that manage all unities account.
This imply that all the system works if and only where the web is available and functioning.

I was reviewing some finance records for our ward on Sunday and noticed that starting in late August there are direct payment deposits showing up as donation batches in MLS complete with all category information. These donations are also showing up on the on the donors statements.

So far, I haven't been able to find out how they are processing their donations.

Not all tithing information is provided to the wards through MLS: certain types of donations made directly to SLC are not reported to the wards.

Short of having to go through the entire thread, Australians have the option to pay over the internet by BPAY. A card was issued by the church for each member to the wards some time ago and it provides the reference number for the individual member (CRN) and then separate biller codes for Tithing, Fast Offering and Ward Missionary. The system works well, unless the member loses their card and, for whatever reason, didn't have the details recorded with their bank.
I have not been able to find a way to get a replacement card for the members of my ward. I imagine this system or something similar will be rolled out world wide eventually.

tckenney wrote:Short of having to go through the entire thread, Australians have the option to pay over the internet by BPAY.
...
I imagine this system or something similar will be rolled out world wide eventually.

Yes, it's clear that certain countries already have the option to make donations online. But because of differences in banking systems and the way that Church financial systems interact with those banking systems, I doubt that there will ever be one unified technique that works in all countries. Instead, it will have to be rolled out country by country, overcoming the challenges unique to each country, which I imagine is one reason why it is taking so long to be implemented in the US and Canada.

The Church really needs to get on this. Some people, like me, don't use checks anymore. I don't have any. Everyone uses transfers or debit or credit cards now - well, except for the Church. This is a problem that it way passed the point of needing a solution.

deaneborn wrote:The Church really needs to get on this. Some people, like me, don't use checks anymore.

They are headed in that direction. You may want to read the Tithing/Fast Offering Direct Deposit to Church HQ thread.

tckenney wrote:I imagine this system or something similar will be rolled out world wide eventually.

I hope not!
Now I seat on my armchair with my laptop. Then I go to my Online bank and issue a command to the bank to tranfert to Church's bank account my offerts.
Into the request there's a text box where I write the ammount of each fund.
All this without charge for me and Church.
The Clerk of my Ward go into the Online Church Bank and see all the tranferts done with funds description and enter the data into MLS.

The online system used in the United States requires no effort at all on the part of the ward clerk. A batch file appears on the financial side of MLS and shows up in all of the reports as if the clerk and bishopric had entered the contributions, but they did not. It was all done automatically by the computers at Church headquarters.

lajackson wrote:It was all done automatically by the computers at Church headquarters.

By the computers or employees?

marianomarini wrote:

lajackson wrote:It was all done automatically by the computers at Church headquarters.

By the computers or employees?

By the computers. According to your description, your country uses a different system that requires a person to manually record the donation. You described a text box where you write the amount of each fund, and then having the clerk go into the Online Church Bank to view and enter the data into MLS.

In the U.S., an electronic Bill Pay contribution is directed to one individual category and is processed electronically. If a member wishes to pay tithing and fast offering, for example, they make two electronic contributions, one for each category.

The only involvement by a Church employee in the U.S. is to set up the account one time before the first contribution. After that, it is all done by the computers.

It's hard to believe that it's as easy as that to the church, with no extra operational costs or technical limitations. If that were the case, you would expect it to have been made widely available already and publicized...

But, if it's not a technical or operational challenge, then there certainly must be another good reason why it's not being publicized by the church.

sbradshaw wrote:It's hard to believe that it's as easy as that to the church, with no extra operational costs or technical limitations. If that were the case, you would expect it to have been made widely available already and publicized...

But, if it's not a technical or operational challenge, then there certainly must be another good reason why it's not being publicized by the church.

I think that lajackson gave the answer to that previously when he reported on this method: https://tech.lds.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 30#p126045

Basically, the church isn't ready to handle mass signups and they have to work with each new bank to get it set up. The second factor be less of an obstacle as they organically connect with more and more banks. I expect they probably have plans to automate the first but are taking things slowly to make sure everything works well.

eblood66 wrote:

sbradshaw wrote:But, if it's not a technical or operational challenge, then there certainly must be another good reason why it's not being publicized by the church.

I think that lajackson gave the answer to that previously when he reported on this method: https://tech.lds.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 30#p126045

Basically, the church isn't ready to handle mass signups and they have to work with each new bank to get it set up. The second factor be less of an obstacle as they organically connect with more and more banks. I expect they probably have plans to automate the first but are taking things slowly to make sure everything works well.

To elaborate on what I said in my linked post, it is the signup process. The Church has to establish your account number in their database (just as if you were paying a credit card or a mortgage payment), and the bank has to establish a business payment relationship with the Church. Many larger banks have done that already.

But if you don't set up the payment properly with matching information at your bank, the Church gets a paper check and has to figure out what to do with it. They get hundreds of checks a week from anxious members who have not properly followed the process, and that should not be.

I believe that is what is keeping the Church from rolling it out faster. That is why I am allowed to share the application process, but not the specific signup information. The actual signup information is unique to you as a member and the bank from which you will contribute.

If you do it wrong, or if you do it before the Church is ready to receive your contribution, there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and some poor sister at Church headquarters has to figure out what to do with the paper check.

(Full disclosure: I just made up that last paragraph, but I suspect it is partially true.)

Any update with Paying Tithing online. Some Stake Technology clerk "heard" that the church was doing some Beta test of paying Tithing online -- or to the church. It would then show up in some Download the Bishop/clerk could get.
Not sure if we are any closer to this happening or not?

tubaloth wrote:Any update with Paying Tithing online. Some Stake Technology clerk "heard" that the church was doing some Beta test of paying Tithing online -- or to the church. It would then show up in some Download the Bishop/clerk could get.
Not sure if we are any closer to this happening or not?

It looks like they are there... sort of. I spoke with one of the staff on the phone and he said they currently have in place a system whereby members can pay using the billpay system from most of the popular banks in the US. The donation will show up in your local unit's MLS and your year end statement. You will also get email confirmation of your donations. If you follow the instructions found earlier in this thread and drop them an email, they will reply with an application form to fill out and email back to them, similar to the one below.
Return the form and they will give you specific instructions, unique to your bank on how to setup the billpay process.

The problem lies in the fact they currently only have a staff of SIX(!) to handle all the new requests, answer phones, work out problems, and who knows what else. They are more than happy to enroll anyone living in the US into the system, *BUT*, he made it clear that their staff would quickly get swamped if this were announced churchwide. He didn't say if there were any plans of streamlining the enrollment process or beefing up the staff, so we have to assume it is what it is and respect their request not to publish this in bulletins or announce it over the pulpit quite yet. Bottom line, if you would like to test the water yourself, you are welcome to give it a try.

Please I really need help for how can I pay my tithing online.

Can some one help me to teach me how can I go through this and must be done soon. I really wants to pay tithing online and I prefer paying mine through online.

eretipeterbirati I send you a private message. You just need to email the church. You need to know how to set up a bill pay on your banks website.

Check out Online Donations at https://www.lds.org/help/support/financ ... s?lang=eng

It says that "ONLINE DONATIONS IS CURRENTLY LIMITED TO BETA USERS ONLY", but it looks like online donation though an LDS account is coming soon

Does anybody know how to sign up or do become a Beta User?

One thing I was going to set up with my bank is like a scheduled payment. To just have the bill pay take money out twice a month, do we know if this new online donations is or can do that?

tubaloth wrote:Does anybody know how to sign up or do become a Beta User?

It's not an open beta. I happen to know someone whose ward is participating in the beta, but I'm sure it is only open to people in those selected wards/branches/stakes.

tubaloth wrote:One thing I was going to set up with my bank is like a scheduled payment. To just have the bill pay take money out twice a month, do we know if this new online donations is or can do that?

I know nothing more than what I can read in the linked document, but there was clearly no ability listed at this time for repeating donations. We could certainly hope that such a feature will be added in the future, but to begin with, you'll just have to make manual donations (which can copy a previous donation, but still have to be done manually each time you want to donate).

Hello!

Can you send me the email address to contact the Church Office ? I 'd like to get the form filled
out and sent back to them today if possible.

Thanks for your help!

blueeyesca wrote:Can you send me the email address to contact the Church Office ? I 'd like to get the form filled out and sent back to them today if possible.

See this post for the address and some other helpful instructions.

Here's the challenge to this option of having a check sent to your home address. I am one who needs to figure out how to make distributions from a Charitable Fund to pay for tithing and, if the audit trail leaves any question as to the correct/proper allocation to the charity, it can cause issues from an audit perspective. I would really not want to send a check to my personal address and then deliver by hand as this can trigger an audit due to the potential conflict of interest. While I know the check is made payable to the ward, it's not a very good way to go if you're trying to make your donation from a source other than your personal checking account. Also, I think it would be faster just to write the check yourself than have the bank go to the expense/hassle of just sending you a check to then give to the bishopric.

This is going to become more and more an issue as the millennial generation turns to electronic banks.

roscomann wrote:Here's the challenge to this option of having a check sent to your home address.

Which is why it is so nice that you no longer have to do this if you have a U.S. bank account.

No check banking has been a way of life in Europe and other countries for a decade or longer. Some of my children have accounts where they are not allowed to write checks.

To pay his tithing, a general authority from Europe had to open a checking account when he moved to the U.S. I have always wondered if he has been overseeing the effort to get electronic contributions going for U.S. members.

My Bishop, in Sacrament Meeting this past Sunday, got on members about putting a note in the Fast Offering envelope the Deacon's bring around on Sunday morning. They kept saying I pay my FO when I pay my tithing and wanted to be removed from the route. He said that 'The Church' is trying to build these Deacons and get them ready for missions and that this is one of their priesthood responsibilities and members needed to decide whether they 'Stood with the Church' or not.

Later in a combined P/RS lesson on technology, a ward member asked me about paying tithing online. I didn't want to touch that with a ten-foot-pole so I deferred to the Bishop. The Bishop said it was only being beta tested in one place and that it's a long way off still.

So, it appears, that many may still be in the need of writing a FO check even if they can do everything else online.

johnshaw wrote:So, it appears, that many may still be in the need of writing a FO check even if they can do everything else online.

Having been a bishop twice, I would merely comment that yours is about to get a real surprise, and it will be sooner rather than later. However, I love my bishop with all of his quirks and traditions, and the Church is still true.

If I faced that situation, I would just leave the part of the note off asking to be removed from the FO route. I am confident I still "Stood with the Church" when the checks in my checking account went away.

He might also be surprised that, as an adult, I have never lived anywhere in my life where the deacons collected fast offerings using the blue envelope system, although I am very familiar with it. Somehow, we've managed successfully to send out faithful missionaries just the same.

Actually, I could really be feisty and just put a note in the FO envelope with my savings account and bank routing number.

But that's both ill-advised and off topic.

My personal correspondence with him after the meeting indicated much the same. I told him it was fully documented at the clerksupport.lds.org site. That I've been doing this for 20 years myself, and only after my move back to Utah 8 months ago have I had deacon visit my home in the last 20 years.

johnshaw wrote:My Bishop, in Sacrament Meeting this past Sunday, got on members about putting a note in the Fast Offering envelope the Deacon's bring around on Sunday morning. They kept saying I pay my FO when I pay my tithing and wanted to be removed from the route. He said that 'The Church' is trying to build these Deacons and get them ready for missions and that this is one of their priesthood responsibilities and members needed to decide whether they 'Stood with the Church' or not.

Hrmm. Whether the deacons go out to try and collect fast offering at all is up to the bishop's discretion. I've never been in a ward where the YM were physically capable of handling more than the tiniest fraction of the active members anyway.

allenjpl wrote:Hrmm. Whether the deacons go out to try and collect fast offering at all is up to the bishop's discretion. I've never been in a ward where the YM were physically capable of handling more than the tiniest fraction of the active members anyway.

Perhaps we could start sending the deacons out with scanners that will interface with the cell phones they probably already have and transmit the donation directly back to the clerk's office.

Just kidding, of course. But we do need to get back on topic, fun as it is to digress. The rest of the moderators will get after me pretty soon if I don't suggest we get back to discussing paying contributions online, at least in this Topic.

Online Donations are official and are "rolling out" to areas in 2015:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/f ... -donations

Church Approves Electronic Method to Submit Tithes and Other Charitable Donations
SALT LAKE CITY —
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has approved an electronic method for members in the United States to pay tithing and submit other charitable donations.

The Online Donations system will allow members in the United States an additional method to submit their contributions to the Church. Historically, donation envelopes and contributions were given to priesthood leaders in each ward and branch. In the future, this same process may still be used. However, for those who wish, they may make their contributions through the online donation system developed by the Church.

The impression I get is that the a small staff at CHQ handles the setup bill pay but donations made through bill pay once properly set up do not require manual processing. I contacted donations@ldschurch.org inquiring about paying using bill pay myself and informing those who currently use bill pay to mail a check to the bishop about this method.

My message was sent shortly after 5 pm MDT yesterday, a reply came shortly after 8 am MDT today - so it does not seem like they are swamped. They did state:

The new online program and simply paying directly to the ward are the preffered methods to pay tithes.

The option of your banks bill pay program is still approved.

From handbook 1 14.4.1

They provided the form and did state that the form can be passed along. To me it seems that the order of preferrence for paying donations is:
1a) Place donation in donation envelope with completed donation slip and deliver to bishopric.
1b) The new online donation system (where available).
2) Set up bill pay with headquarters.
3) Send funds directly to the bishop along with instructions for completing the donation slip.

If you read the handbook and the message from donations@ldschurch.org together with a very narrow interpretation, option 3 is not an approved method.

In my response with the bill pay form, I specifically asked not to be set up with bill pay if it incurred either transaction fees or manual processing of transactions at church headquarters. The response I received simply provided instructions for setting up bill pay with my bank, emphasising the importance of following instructions exactly in order to ensure that the payment is processed automatically. My form was sent about 9:30 am MDT with instructions recieved at 1:00 pm MDT.

My personal belief is that the only reason that this is not a preferred method is that if not setup properly, the transaction will not be processed automatically. I plan to share this information with my bishopric and financial clerk and expect that we will contact those who currently send bill pay checks to the Bishop to let them know that they can set up bill pay directly to the church.

robartsd wrote:My personal belief is that the only reason that this is not a preferred method is that if not setup properly, the transaction will not be processed automatically. I plan to share this information with my bishopric and financial clerk and expect that we will contact those who currently send bill pay checks to the Bishop to let them know that they can set up bill pay directly to the church.

Another option would be to have them hold on until the new payment system is available to your ward.

As we have no clue when the new payment system will reach us, I would prefer to immediately inform those that are currently mailing checks to the bishop through bill pay. I don't suggest that those who are having bill pay checks mailed to their own homes be informed unless they continue to do so after the new system is availble (demonstrating that their bank's bill pay is prefered over the new system). Of course I will follow whatever decision the bishop makes with regards to sharing this information as his councilor.

For myself, I prefer consolidating managing my financial transactions in my bank's bill pay as much as possible. My concerns about this not being the church's preferred method have been resolved (it does not cost the church transaction fees or manual transaction processing) so I will use my preference of the methods approved by the church. I may also choose to share this information with friends and family as I deem appropriate.

robartsd wrote:For myself, I prefer consolidating managing my financial transactions in my bank's bill pay as much as possible.

There are things the new Online Donation system will do that bank bill pay will not. With the Online Donation system you will be able to pay to a ward missionary fund, and your ACH transfer will be a single amount for the total, rather than having to set up a bill pay ACH transfer for each donation category.

Those are a few of the reasons I would switch to Online Donations when it becomes available in my neighborhood.

lajackson wrote:There are things the new Online Donation system will do that bank bill pay will not.

... and there are things that the bank's bill pay system will do that the new Online Donation system will not. Most notable among those is recurring transactions. With Bill Pay, I can set up the recurring transactions and never touch it again until something needs to be changed. I hope that eventually the donation system will add that feature, but until it does, I will continue to use Bill Pay.

Personally, I plan to use both systems, leveraging the recurring capabilities of Bill Pay as much as I can, but also using the additional donation category options (specifically Ward Missionary) of the online donation system.

Does anyone know if the new online system supports donations to the Ward Missionary fund of other wards (to support a family member who is not in the same area)? I could see a system where the member outside the area would get the unit number from the missionary's bishop and entering that in the online system (with the ward name being pulled up so that the member can verify that they got it right).

robartsd wrote:Does anyone know if the new online system supports donations to the Ward Missionary fund of other wards (to support a family member who is not in the same area)?

It does.

aebrown wrote:... and there are things that the bank's bill pay system will do that the new Online Donation system will not. Most notable among those is recurring transactions.

Not only will the bank bill pay system let you make recurring transactions, but it will let you set a date in advance even for a single transaction. I can set up a payment for later in the week or month or whenever, and not have to wait until the exact payment date to enter the transaction.

I think that the traditionalist in me still shies away from putting donations on autopilot. I like the electronic part, but have never gotten into the recurring part, although I have no objection at all to the idea.

I could see some concerns about recuring transactions - once you put it on autopay, do you remember to modify it when your income changes? However, I imagine that the new system doesn't do recuring or future transactions simply because they didn't want to delay rollout to add those features. Does the new system require the member to enter bank information every time or can the bank information be saved for future transactions? If they don't even retain bank information, then they only have to hold the data long enough to process the transaction - then they can delete the data reducing risk.

robartsd wrote:I could see some concerns about recuring transactions - once you put it on autopay, do you remember to modify it when your income changes?

I certainly would. Making changes is clearly the responsibility of anyone who chooses to use recurring transactions; I see no problem with that.

robartsd wrote:Does the new system require the member to enter bank information every time or can the bank information be saved for future transactions? If they don't even retain bank information, then they only have to hold the data long enough to process the transaction - then they can delete the data reducing risk.

The new system allows a user to reuse an existing transaction, which includes amounts and categories and bank information, as a starting point for a new donation (see the Reuse This Donation section in the Online Donations help article).

robartsd wrote:Does the new system require the member to enter bank information every time or can the bank information be saved for future transactions?

The Online Donation system is able to save bank information, even for multiple accounts.

According to the instructions, the first time you make an online donation, you will need to add a bank account. Later instructions tell how to edit the information, and even how to select between bank accounts if you have more than one saved.

Is it okay for tithing slip to be posted in social media if it’s for reference only. Thank you

racquelrañeses wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:32 am Is it okay for tithing slip to be posted in social media if it’s for reference only. Thank you

Definitely not if it contains information in it. I guess it would be OK to post a blank one, but I fail to see why you would want to do so.

racquelrañeses wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:32 am Is it okay for tithing slip to be posted in social media if it’s for reference only. Thank you

Copyright may apply. Please see "Permission to Use Copyrights and Trademarks" from the Terms of Use.

racquelrañeses wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:32 am Is it okay for tithing slip to be posted in social media if it’s for reference only. Thank you

If you get it from Online Donations, your tithing slip (even a blank one) includes your full name and membership number. Posting that would be the same as posting your social security number and date of birth. I would not do it.