Tithing Debit Card Machine

Just for the heck of it, but I thought I would toss this idea out. I write one check a month. One! Everything else is paid online or I used my debit card.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could go up to the clerk's office, swipe your debit card, put in your pin. A receipt would print and you put it into a tithing envelope and hand it to the bishop. It would clear faster, it is more secure, and talk about easy!

Machines and setup are super inexpensive (I know I sell them) and the money would go straight to the assigned account.

Even future down the line, a kiosk were you kid fill out your whole tithing slip and swipe your card.

EFT is available now. See this thread.

EFT is available, but far from convenient or easy to setup as opposed to continuing to write the "one" check a month

I didn't think it was a huge inconvenience. I had trouble getting any information from the church finance department about questions I had about EFT. But once I set it up, it about 30 seconds to complete the transaction. Very easy.

Yes machines are inexpensive, but there still is a ~1% processing fee that ETF does not have (the bank might charge you one in addition though). Though it was an interesting idea.

One thing I do wish the church would add is the syncronization of tithing reports of your account accross the church. That would make it so at tithing settlement you do not have to worry about getting a statement from every ward you were in, but it would all be at your current ward. (In addition it would make the ETF option feel better to the lay member in the church.)

Thanks for the replies. To be honest my first desire was to do a search for this topic but then thought..who would be talking about this..I was wrong.

Well the 1% would be a problem especially if you want to pay 10%, technically you are only paying 9%. Just looking for a technology way to help the process and get rid of my check book.

Bueno,

Thanks for the posts.

thedqs wrote:One thing I do wish the church would add is the syncronization of tithing reports of your account accross the church. That would make it so at tithing settlement you do not have to worry about getting a statement from every ward you were in, but it would all be at your current ward. (In addition it would make the ETF option feel better to the lay member in the church.)

Yes! I've had a hard time imagining why this hasn't been done yet. I've been in 4 different wards in the past two years (5 in the past 3 years, and looking to move again soon). (Singles ward, got married and went to a family ward, moved out of the bad part of town to stay with my in-laws, got into family housing at the university, graduated and got a job, and now I'm looking to buy a house while the prices are good. My tithing settlements and statements have been disappointingly incomplete. Kind of OK though, 10% isn't hard to calculate.)

seanmcox wrote:Yes! I've had a hard time imagining why this hasn't been done yet.

I can imagine lots of reasons.

The first one on my list is who do you go to if you feel the information is incorrect? Only the ward that accepted your donation is in a position to investigate any discrepancy. So under the current system, the unit that gives you the paper is the one that's responsible for it's accuracy.

Another consideration is tax law. We tend to think of the church as one large monolith, but how does the IRS (in the US) see it? I write my check out to my ward, not to the Corporation of the President.

When happens when a member moves between countries?

The bottom line is while the current system is a hassle for members who move, it is true to the KISS principle.

RussellHltn wrote:The first one on my list is who do you go to if you feel the information is incorrect? Only the ward that accepted your donation is in a position to investigate any discrepancy. So under the current system, the unit that gives you the paper is the one that's responsible for it's accuracy.

hat is true but as I do not receive any paper from past wards anyway it makes this point mute, I'd rather have a full list then an incomplete. Though you are right that the ward that accepted the donation would have to account for any discrepancy. (My current system for tithing is to keep track of it meticulously on a financial program, the paper I get from the wards just is to verify that everything went where it should have)

RussellHltn wrote:Another consideration is tax law. We tend to think of the church as one large monolith, but how does the IRS (in the US) see it? I write my check out to my ward, not to the Corporation of the President.

I could be wrong but I believe that it is registered as a single monolithic charity with multiple registered names so that the wards can accept donations. (By the way wasn't the Corporation of the President renamed to Intellectual Reserve?)

RussellHltn wrote:When happens when a member moves between countries?

This could be harder to handle but at least the member would have a complete record of tithing paid.

RussellHltn wrote:The bottom line is while the current system is a hassle for members who move, it is true to the KISS principle.

It does keep it simple, but I believe it would still be simple and less hassle for the tithing report to include all donations made throughout the year. And with technology today it should be simple to do. Even if the ward wouldn't keep track of it if I could see it under my LUWS profile as a report it would be great too.

thedqs wrote:That is true but as I do not receive any paper from past wards anyway it makes this point mute,

And moot too. But the reasons you don't get those papers is you didn't let them know where to find you. If you'd ask, they'd send it to you. If you ever get audited, it will be needed. Keep in mind, it's not just an verification of numbers, but a legal statement that the donation is indeed a chartable donation. (Not all money you give to the church is a chartable donation.)

The rest of the issues is something that has to be addressed by a tax lawyer.

However, if MLS could be modified so that each unit is updated with the member's current address so the statements can be mailed, that would solve all the possible legal issues and still get the information to the members.

thedqs wrote:By the way wasn't the Corporation of the President renamed to Intellectual Reserve?

I think IR is for copyright stuff, (so we see it a lot more) but I could be wrong.

Having MLS track your current address and donations would be great. So far I haven't had to declare charitable donations yet, but this coming tax year might be different. (Being a student doesn't earn much)

RussellHltn wrote:The bottom line is while the current system is a hassle for members who move, it is true to the KISS principle.

Whatever it is, its not KISS. KISS isn't about simply making fewer features, its about not adding features that make a system more of a pain to deal with. It's about one aspect of that balancing act which is good design.

I always want my complete donation record. I've never had a discrepancy to report, but I always have to refer back to my old ward for my church donation records. Giving members who move their full record from one location only makes life complicated for the guy who has to add the feature. (It's probably not too complicated for him either, though I imagine there might be administrative barriers.) The statement could also be presented so that each ward's donations are clearly indicated. (Personally I would think it would make sense to print up the donations through each unit on separate pages, so I would then get a report composed of a report for my current ward and a report for the ward where I attended before getting my current job and moving.) It would be pretty KISS all around the table. In the rare event that there are problems, I could deal with them through the proper ward/branch.

It's not KISS for the member, but it's KISS from the organizational/operational view. Again, much of the issues have to be addressed by a tax lawyer and so far none has appeared in this conversation.

I'm sure everyone would like to see some feature implemented. As a former clerk, I didn't like that pile of statement that I couldn't deliver either. But the forum members don't set the development priorities nor can we work out the details that require professional legal opinions. I"ll do what I can to make sure the idea is on the requested features list somewhere, but we can't promise anything more then that.

RussellHltn wrote:I'm sure everyone would like to see some feature implemented. As a former clerk, I didn't like that pile of statement that I couldn't deliver either. But the forum members don't set the development priorities nor can we work out the details that require professional legal opinions. I"ll do what I can to make sure the idea is on the requested features list somewhere, but we can't promise anything more then that.

Exactly, I just put the feature out for those in the church to see another way of doing it and in addition for the community to build the idea up. But you are correct we cannot set priorities nor do we actually determine what the church does.

Note for all:
Remember that the forums focus around the technology and ideas of using technology in the church.

Getting back to the original topic, I can think of one situation where EFT won't work, and that is where the person has a variable income, because for example, they are self employed. In that case, an ATM machine would be nice!

Aaron

cannona wrote:Getting back to the original topic, I can think of one situation where EFT won't work, and that is where the person has a variable income, because for example, they are self employed.

I know when I filled out paper work with my employer, I could opt to do things with either a fixed amount or a percentage of my income.

But EFT doesn't have to be mean "automatic". I believe electronic bill pay would also work though EFT.

Saw this thread and found it interesting. when I was ward and then stake finance clerk I thought EFT would be a good idea too. Until it's made easier, what i've started doing this year is to use my bank's (Wells Fargo) Bill Pay feature and write a check from there. No fee and THEY mail the check. I set it up this way:

Payee: Eugene 245th Ward
C/O Bishop Smith
123 His Address
City, State Zip

Memo: T=$100, FO=$10, BofM=$5 (etc)

I set it up as a weekly reocurring payment on my paydays. Could be set up for monthly or whatever. I was worried my Bishop wouldn't like it but he think's it's great. when he sees the envelopes addressed that way he doesn't open them at home,... brings them to church and just turns them in that way to the clerks. Works for him, works for me and NO FEES! ';-)

Just my 2-bits. hope it's helpful.

Steven Leuck

StevenLeuck wrote:Saw this thread and found it interesting. when I was ward and then stake finance clerk I thought EFT would be a good idea too. Until it's made easier, what i've started doing this year is to use my bank's (Wells Fargo) Bill Pay feature and write a check from there. No fee and THEY mail the check. I set it up this way:

Payee: Eugene 245th Ward
C/O Bishop Smith
123 His Address
City, State Zip

Memo: T=$100, FO=$10, BofM=$5 (etc)

I've run into problems where members have used this method and forgot to include the "memo" part describing which categories the donation is to go. Because there is no donation slip, it creates a small problem. If we can't reach them by telephone, we follow the guidelines and put it all in tithing, knowing we may have to correct the batch later.

And I use a bank with an online bill pay service that does not allow me to complete a memo line at all, which is one of the reasons I still write one check a month.

When my son was serving a mission, I payed my offers through banking account directly to main office in Milano (I know Italy is a very strange country). There was no problems at all. My Branch President was informed of my payment through trimestral tithing settlement.
At that time I thought that it would be a good thing if in the bills there was one more checkbox for Bank payment. Presently there are only two: Cash or Check.
I could enclose Bank payment receipt, give it to me by my bank; this way I could notify monthly my offers to my leader, and he can take record of it, without introducing problems with total amount of deposit and donor sheets!