newFamilySearch Pedigree Display Record

37 postsstarted by garysturn 21,821 viewsoriginal topic

Senior Member
#1
newFamilySearch displays in the Pedigree Views and in the Details Summary View the top record in a Sort.

The current sort order is: (Personal Submission) then (LDS Membership Record) then (A-Z Sort).

Because of this sort, every person signed on might see a different default view.

-When you go beyond LDS Members in a line this method often displays a first name as default.
-Those without a submission see the first record in an A-Z Sort if beyond LDS Members in the line.
-This encourages each user to add an opinion for each incomplete name displayed.
-When someone enters another opinion, it becomes a (Personal Submission) for them.
-Users might think this opinion is seen by others as default, but it is only sorted to the top for them.
-This creates another record for the folder and adds to the number of records in the folder.
-When folders get to full, the pages will load slower. Many of the entries are just display entries.
-Correlation between users is more difficult when every user sees a different view.

I would like for this Thread to be a place to discuss Ideas about how to display records better.
If the thread is used enough we might draw the attention of the developers and they can get ideas from us.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Member
#2

Huh?

I guess I am not following your description. I understand that different people see a different view, but I am not clear as to the reasons such a thing would be useful, or what information is different from user to user.

Draw me a picture.

Could you post some screenshots or mockups to poke at?

Can you provide reasons why the views should be different?

Thanks
Barrie
Community Administrator
#3
From what I understand, the developers are aware of the situation. Keep in mind that nFS isn't even up to version 1.0 yet.

As for what should be selected as default, I'd suggest:

"Grading" the sources. The source judged most accurate would be given preference.

Another thought is simply to go with the longest name. At least that would be an improvement over alphabetical which favors the shortest name.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Community Moderators
#4
Gary, where did you learn about the priority order? Is it documented? Or, did you figure it out by observing system behavior?

I can understand why personal submission would take first priority and why Church membership info would be higher priority than other info. On the other hand, I can see the point that it's not good to encourage everyone to submit their own preference just so it displays the way they want to see it. In the early 2007 beta test, working with a person made of around 300 pieces was difficult, especially when trying to separate out a piece that shouldn't have been combined.

Based on the beta test, it should be possible to dispute any info that is provably wrong. I would hope disputed info would become lower in priority than undisputed info.

It would seem it would be helpful for the system to give priority to items with sources, as opposed to items without sources. Perhaps, different types of sources could be prioritized, with a source likely to be an original primary source counting more than a source likely to be less reliable.

Another option might be to allow some form of voting on the various pieces of info. There are probably a lot of issues with how voting could be implemented.
Senior Member
#5

Possible Solution

One possible solution would be to create 2 view modes. The Personal view mode (which is the current mode now) and a FamilySearch view mode. Adding a tab on the home page for the FamilySearch view.

-Create a (FamilySearch record) for each folder which does not have an (LDS Membership record).
-Make the FamilySearch record have full editing access by all users.
--Populate the new record with the version of each event which has the most multiple contributors.
--This would be a field that could only be changed by selecting a new event from within the folder.
-Create 2 sort routines for the two different views.
-Family Search View Sort:
--(LDS Membership record) then (FamilySearch record) then (Personal Submission) then (A-Z Sort).
-Personal View Sort:
--(Personal Submission) then (LDS Membership record) then (FamilySearch record) then (A-Z Sort).
-When a user edits the (FamilySearch record) the user would choose from the existing versions of an event in the folder or create a new entry to go into the folder to select.
--Keep a change log with the name and comments of the person making the change so other users can correlate with each other when disagreements exist.
--Once the correct information is in the (FamilySearch record), other users would not need to express an opinion (creating a record in the folder) to get the correct information to display because the (FamilySearch record) would be sorted to the top of the list for those folders without personal submissions..
-Display the name in the pedigree in Red in both views when the (Personal Submission) of the user disagrees with the (Family Search View) this would indicate that futher research is needed and a change to one or the other record is needed.
-Offer three views in the "Individual Details" section. "Summary" "FamilySearch View" "Detailed View"
--The "FamilySearch View" would display FamilySearch default record.
--The "Summary" view would display the same as it does now displaying the default record for the mode you are working in.
--The "Detail View" would remain the same as it is now only using the selected sort Personal view or FamilySerch view.
-This FamilySearch record could then become the Life Browser record when those functions are added, which allow the attaching of multimedia, histories, and source images to a record.
See: http://www.familysearchlabs.org/
-I came up with this possible solution to require the least amount of programming. A rating system would take a much more complicated program.

Any questions, comments, or additions to this or other solutions are welcome.

Here is sample of what the Screen might look like with these options.
Image
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#6

Sort order

I attended a training session on newFamilySearch for Family History Consultants at the Family History Library in SLC. One of the presentors explained the Sort order and I wrote it in my notes, then tested the sort by checking different records. Then I entered a Personal Opinion and watched to see what happened. My testing confirmed what the presentor described. The presentor was a Product Manager for FamilySearch. I know they are working on a solution to the display record, but do not know what type of method they are working on. I then got another user to log in and see what their view was, which confirmed that they did not see my opinion in their pedigrees or details views.
rmrichesjr wrote:Gary, where did you learn about the priority order? Is it documented? Or, did you figure it out by observing system behavior?

I can understand why personal submission would take first priority and why Church membership info would be higher priority than other info. On the other hand, I can see the point that it's not good to encourage everyone to submit their own preference just so it displays the way they want to see it. In the early 2007 beta test, working with a person made of around 300 pieces was difficult, especially when trying to separate out a piece that shouldn't have been combined.

Based on the beta test, it should be possible to dispute any info that is provably wrong. I would hope disputed info would become lower in priority than undisputed info.

It would seem it would be helpful for the system to give priority to items with sources, as opposed to items without sources. Perhaps, different types of sources could be prioritized, with a source likely to be an original primary source counting more than a source likely to be less reliable.

Another option might be to allow some form of voting on the various pieces of info. There are probably a lot of issues with how voting could be implemented.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#7

Display order Slides

"The Earl" asked for some pictures to demonstrate how the sorts and display records are chosen. I have created a small slide show of 7 slides. If the slides scroll to fast, click on the pause button and move through the slides one at a time, by pushing the arrows at the bottom of the screen that pop up when you move the mouse over the slide. Click on this link:
newFamilySearch Slide Show displaying sort and display order

Remember the sort:
(User Submission) then (LDS Membership record) then (A-Z Sort)
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
New Member
#8

Prioritizing names in new FamilySearch

I think we are trying to make this too complicated. Why not allow users to select the names dates and places they think are most correct. Those of us who have done research should know which is correct. The number of selections could be tabulated and the option with the most votes rises to the top. The membership record SHOULD be the most correct, of course, but in those cases where there is no membership record, using whichever name comes first alphabetically makes no sense. It would be better to put the names with no surname at the BOTTOM of the list rather than the top. We KNOW those aren't correct or complete.

We might also give consideration to the fact that some people went by more than one name - patronymic, natural, adopted, nicknames (some people never used their given names). I like to use the format
Given Name(s) OR Nickname OR Foreign Name OR any other name used / Patronymic Name OR Surname OR Foreign Spelling of Name OR Adopted Name/--- whichever apply. PAF and nFS both support the use of OR to separate names. That way you can cover all the options on one line. nFS allows the editing of parts of names to be either given names or surnames, which can be changed if nFS interprets the name incorrectly. I see lots of entries where the name is spelled in ways which the person never used in his/her life. Those are the ones that should be disputed. Most of the others are differing combinations of the above assortment I have listed. Sometimes people went by names of step-fathers even though they were never adopted. Marriage records for second marriages usually show the wife using her first husband's surname. Diacritics in a foreign name are sometimes interpreted differently by different members of a family when the family immigrates. My Dutch ancestors used their patronymic name for a middle name for over 50 years after they adopted surnames. Perhaps the name should be broken down and identified whether each one is foreign, adopted, patronymic, nickname, etc. So the question is IS THERE REALLY ONE CORRECT OPTION FOR NAMES?
Community Administrator
#9
Marian JOhnson wrote:So the question is IS THERE REALLY ONE CORRECT OPTION FOR NAMES?
That's certainly a valid point. There may not always be one. That said, some are more correct then others. I think we all agree the current system of "alphabetical" doesn't make any sense.

I think the goal here is to get something that will be "close enough" for most people and which wouldn't be too hard to implement. While voting is one option, there would still need a database with all votes and the accompanying overhead to hold it. I'd like to see something that works most of the time without having rely on users inputting more information just to get the right name to float to the top.

Another thought might be some "averaging" of names. Using the example given, since 10 entries contain "Francis" and only one "Frances", "Francis" wins. Since most of them contain "Beckstead" and "Jr", those are added as well.

And yes, the same person could well have the same name in different languages. For example someone from China who immigrated to the US as a laborer. In that case, I'd think the "code page" for the user would take preference so that someone in China would see sources that use Chinese characters as primary while someone in the US would see the name from sources that used the English alphabet.

Another simple method is to simply elevate personal opinion over alphabetical listing. That way the second person to come in will see by default the opinion of the first and won't have to enter another opinion just to get the same name to appear at the top. Now, what to do when there are conflicting opinions .... I don't know.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Community Moderators
#10
Another would be those names that are tied to vital records (birth, death, marriage, etc) are the preferred and if you cannot find a vital then those found in other records would be taken and finally if there is no records the suggestion of Russell just to count the entries and see which name out votes the others would be best.
- David
Senior Member
#11
The problems with having every one enter an opinion:

-The folders fill up fast, when you get back several generations there are 1000's of decendents.
-When every person needs to enter an opinion it adds to the folder. Full folders load very slow.
-The current software works on a sort. So you would have to rewrite the program to use a voting system or ranking system.
-We need to come up with a better sort so the most popular submitted version of a name or event appears ahead of an alphabetical sort so everyone does not need to add another opinion to get the best submission to display.
Marian JOhnson wrote:I think we are trying to make this too complicated. Why not allow users to select the names dates and places they think are most correct. Those of us who have done research should know which is correct. The number of selections could be tabulated and the option with the most votes rises to the top. The membership record SHOULD be the most correct, of course, but in those cases where there is no membership record, using whichever name comes first alphabetically makes no sense. It would be better to put the names with no surname at the BOTTOM of the list rather than the top. We KNOW those aren't correct or complete.

We might also give consideration to the fact that some people went by more than one name - patronymic, natural, adopted, nicknames (some people never used their given names). I like to use the format
Given Name(s) OR Nickname OR Foreign Name OR any other name used / Patronymic Name OR Surname OR Foreign Spelling of Name OR Adopted Name/--- whichever apply. PAF and nFS both support the use of OR to separate names. That way you can cover all the options on one line. nFS allows the editing of parts of names to be either given names or surnames, which can be changed if nFS interprets the name incorrectly. I see lots of entries where the name is spelled in ways which the person never used in his/her life. Those are the ones that should be disputed. Most of the others are differing combinations of the above assortment I have listed. Sometimes people went by names of step-fathers even though they were never adopted. Marriage records for second marriages usually show the wife using her first husband's surname. Diacritics in a foreign name are sometimes interpreted differently by different members of a family when the family immigrates. My Dutch ancestors used their patronymic name for a middle name for over 50 years after they adopted surnames. Perhaps the name should be broken down and identified whether each one is foreign, adopted, patronymic, nickname, etc. So the question is IS THERE REALLY ONE CORRECT OPTION FOR NAMES?
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#12
The current system does elevate the personal opinion over the alphabetical listing, but only that person sees it elevated. But every user has a different user name so their personal opinion is elevated and if they do not have a personal opinion they get the A-Z Sort. How would you determine which personal opinion is to be elevated if you were to elevate someone elses opinion.
RussellHltn wrote: Another simple method is to simply elevate personal opinion over alphabetical listing. That way the second person to come in will see by default the opinion of the first and won't have to enter another opinion just to get the same name to appear at the top. Now, what to do when there are conflicting opinions .... I don't know.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#13

Short Term Solution

A short term solution that would take very few programming changes would be to come up with a sort that would display the correct name. Once the most correct name is displayed there would then be no need for everyone to express an opinion to get the correct info to elevate to the top of the list.

The only programming changes needed would be to change the sort.

Then future updates could display entries which differ from the most correct name in a different color so the user knows his submission is different from the most correct submission (or most submitted version). This would require more time because more advanced programming changes would be needed.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#14
GarysTurn wrote:The current system does elevate the personal opinion over alphabetical listing.
But only for the user who entered it. My suggestion is to elevate anyone's personal opinion over the alphabetical for everyone. In other words, as soon as a personal opinion has been entered, the alphabetical sort is a non-issue for everyone. So long as that personal opinion satisfies everyone else, that's just one additional record. (Much like your system)

In the case of multiple personal opinions, one's own opinion will still out rank everyone else's. Users who haven't entered an opinion will see the most recent opinion. That last rule is still somewhat arbitrary, but since the owners of the prior entries are less likely to notice the change (since their own opinion will out-rank later opinions) it should avoid a tussle over the "right" way. At any rate, the number of additional records created will still be smaller then under the current system.

It's not perfect, but the programming changes are minimal (no additional record types, no new entry screens, etc. It's just a new "search result") and it's better then what we have now.
GarysTurn wrote:Allow any user to edit this record.
That's the part that I don't think is workable. If anyone can change it, then it will turn into a tug-of-war between users. It also violates what seems to be an underlying principle of nFS where anyone can dispute another's information but they can't change it.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#15

You are saying, Just change the sort?

So if I understand your suggestion, you are saying, change the sort order to.

(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (The Most Recent Submission) then (A-Z Sort)

I agree that that would work most of the time and would be a great improvement until something better were developed. That is a possible short term solution. (Currently every time someone expresses a personal opinion it becomes another submission to the folder and gets sorted alphabetically for all users except for the person who entered it)

Wouldn't an even better sort change be to add the (Most Submitted) order to the sort. RE: The version of a name in the folder which has the most contribuitors of that version. See Example.

(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (Most Submitted) then (A-Z Sort)

Example Sorts:

Current Sort: (When no personal submission or LDS Membership record exists)
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission

Proposed Sort:
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission
RussellHltn wrote: ... My suggestion is to elevate anyone's personal opinion over the alphabetical for everyone. In other words, as soon as a personal opinion has been entered, the alphabetical sort is a non-issue for everyone. So long as that personal opinion satisfies everyone else, that's just one additional record. (Much like your system)

In the case of multiple personal opinions, one's own opinion will still out rank everyone else's. Users who haven't entered an opinion will see the most recent opinion. That last rule is still somewhat arbitrary, but since the owners of the prior entries are less likely to notice the change (since their own opinion will out-rank later opinions) it should avoid a tussle over the "right" way. At any rate, the number of additional records created will still be smaller than under the current system.

It's not perfect, but the programming changes are minimal (no additional record types, no new entry screens, etc. It's just a new "search result") and it's better than what we have now.

Note: I edited and changed this entry (on Nov 18th) after realizing an Official record added to each folder would create multiple Offical records every time more names are combined. I removed the paragraph below and show added text in red.

This was Removed:
At some point there will need to be an official display record sorted at the same level as the (LDS Membership Record) for all individuals without an (LDS Membership Record). How that data is updated would need to be determined.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#16
GarysTurn wrote:So if I understand your suggestion, you are saying, change the sort order to.

(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (The Most Recent Submission) then (A-Z Sort)
Correct.

GarysTurn wrote:At some point there will need to be an official display record sorted at the same level as the (LDS Membership Record) for all individuals without an (LDS Membership Record). How that data is updated would need to be determined.
Along the same lines, at some point we'll have to decide which of many husbands a woman has been sealed to will be the "real one". But that may not come until the Millennium. ;)

Until then, I'm not sure as we'll ever have an official name for someone that humans can work out and agree to. Among the issues are people who have legally changed their names, perhaps "Americanized" it after immigrating, people who's names are written in characters of another language, etc. I suspect any "official" name would have to allow for multiple names or at least aliases. I'm content to let others debate that issue.

While my idea is less then perfect, I think it's "good enough" for now. At least it stops all these personal opinions from being needlessly added and bloat the database.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#17
I now agree with you that we can not have an Official record in each folder.

Note: I edited and changed some of my previous messages on Nov 18th after realizing an Official record added to each folder would create multiple Offical records every time more names are combined.

See my previous message: (revised comment in Red)

As to the Linked parents and spouses, the (Most Submitted) version added to the sort would be the best name to display in the pedigrees. Of course a (Personal Submission) would be displayed first for those with a different submission from the most popular.
RussellHltn wrote: Along the same lines, at some point we'll have to decide which of many husbands a woman has been sealed to will be the "real one". But that may not come until the Millennium. ;)

Until then, I'm not sure as we'll ever have an official name for someone that humans can work out and agree to. Among the issues are people who have legally changed their names, perhaps "Americanized" it after immigrating, people who's names are written in characters of another language, etc. I suspect any "official" name would have to allow for multiple names or at least aliases. I'm content to let others debate that issue.

While my idea is less then perfect, I think it's "good enough" for now. At least it stops all these personal opinions from being needlessly added and bloat the database.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#18
Might there be a way to choose from more than one view to see at any given time, just one view at a time and then switch over to see what one of the other views looks like.

By example I know of a broadcasting website that posts the ratings nearly every month or at lesser intervals showing how popular radio stations are in a given market. The default view is most popular at the top and descending to lowest rated station in the market. But you can click on a column and regroup the results to show by ownership, or even how things stacked up in one of the earlier ratings periods.

With NFS, one could select the personal view, then if they wanted they could see what everyone else sees of their data (good for a variety of reasons), and maybe one or two other alternate views. Something like this could be very useful. Would take some programming though to set up the database sorts to give the desired results one would get when clicking on one of the sub tabs to select a view.
New Member
#19
In nFS the is the ability to "Change View". In the "Family Pedigree with Details" view and the "Family Pedigree" view, the patron can select in the Individual details to "View Summary" or "View or Add Details".

However, try the "Change View" option and select the "Family Group Record" view. There is no ability to change which "preferred" name is displayed for the person on the Family Group record. This problem kind of forces the issue, doesn't it?
Community Moderators
#20
JamesAnderson wrote:...

With NFS, one could select the personal view, then if they wanted they could see what everyone else sees of their data (good for a variety of reasons), and maybe one or two other alternate views. Something like this could be very useful. Would take some programming though to set up the database sorts to give the desired results one would get when clicking on one of the sub tabs to select a view.
tmason1 wrote:In nFS the is the ability to "Change View". In the "Family Pedigree with Details" view and the "Family Pedigree" view, the patron can select in the Individual details to "View Summary" or "View or Add Details".

However, try the "Change View" option and select the "Family Group Record" view. There is no ability to change which "preferred" name is displayed for the person on the Family Group record. This problem kind of forces the issue, doesn't it?
If I remember correctly from the beta several months ago, there is an option somewhere to select whether the system will display only what I (the current user) have submitted vs. display everything regardless of source. Perhaps a solution to the issue of this thread would be to split the latter option into two: display everything but give priority to my own submissions (the current mode); display everything the same way everyone else sees it.
Community Administrator
#21
GarysTurn wrote: Wouldn't an even better sort change be to add the (Most Submitted) order to the sort. RE: The version of a name in the folder which has the most contribuitors of that version. See Example.

(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (Most Submitted) then (A-Z Sort)

Example Sorts:

Current Sort: (When no personal submission or LDS Membership record exists)
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission

Proposed Sort:
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission
Sounds like a similar concept to my "averaging" in post #9. However, I wonder how well this could be implemented? It would have to recognize that "Jon" and "John" are misspelled variations while other "words" are in fact different names. Similar issues go with knowing the relationship between "Bill" is frequently short for "William", "Liz" for "Elizabeth", ignore a woman's married names, etc. Not impossible, but a significant challenge. Particularly when we start adding name rules from other cultures. It's something that would probably have to go though a beta test to get working right.

The problem with "(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (Most Submitted) then (A-Z Sort) order" is if the "most submitted" algorithm gets it wrong, then we're back to a problem like we have today where everyone has to enter a personal submission to see the correct name.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#22

Sorting proposal explained

With this sort proposal ,the (Most Submitted) sort would not be done on the name, but on the number of combined names of each version in the folder. So like I showed in the example of the sort results, what is sorted would be the number of submissions of each version of the name, you would be sorting: 1,1,1,5,45,1 to 45,5,1,1,1,1 the (A-Z sort) that follows would then only alphabatize all the names with the same number of submissions. In this example the only names alphabatized would be those with just 1 submission each. I can create this sort in Access (that is what I use at work).

The problem with the possibility that the name or event submitted by the majority of the submitters might be wrong, is where we correlate with each other or submit our personal opinion which helps elevate our version of the event. With this method when there is no problem with the name displayed (most popular name submitted) there would be no need for everyone to enter a personal opinion. With the most popular name listed it would be correct most of the time. With the alphabatized top record listed the incorrect name is listed most of the time.

The only programming requirement is to develop the sort, which will require totaling how many of each version of a name or event occur in the folder, then including that number in the sort order. Since each version of the name is already only listed once, when "Multiple" is shown as the contributor, that number may already be in the system.
RussellHltn wrote:Sounds like a similar concept to my "averaging" in post #9. However, I wonder how well this could be implemented? It would have to recognize that "Jon" and "John" are misspelled variations while other "words" are in fact different names. Similar issues go with knowing the relationship between "Bill" is frequently short for "William", "Liz" for "Elizabeth", ignore a woman's married names, etc. Not impossible, but a significant challenge. Particularly when we start adding name rules from other cultures. It's something that would probably have to go though a beta test to get working right.

The problem with "(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (Most Submitted) then (A-Z Sort) order" is if the "most submitted" algorithm gets it wrong, then we're back to a problem like we have today where everyone has to enter a personal submission to see the correct name.
Originally Posted by GarysTurn Image
Wouldn't an even better sort change be to add the (Most Submitted) order to the sort. RE: The version of a name in the folder which has the most contribuitors of that version. See Example.

(Personal Submission) if none (LDS Membership Record) if none (Most Submitted) then (A-Z Sort)

Example Sorts:

Current Sort Results: (When no personal submission or LDS Membership record exists)
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission

Proposed Sort Results:
John Howard Doe (45) Submissions
John H. Doe (5) Submissions
Howard Doe (1) Submission
John (1) Submission
John Doe (1) Submission
Jon Howard Doe (1) Submission
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#23

Multiple Views

It appears that the option to see either your personal submission or a public view is no longer an option in the current version. Instead the two views are combined in to one view and if you have a personal submission for an individual, it is substituted into the pedigrees and details views. If you do not have a submission, you see what everyone else sees without a submission. This is what all the discussion is about. We each see something different which makes it harder to correlate with each other, and because the displayed name is either the (LDS Membership Record) or if none an (A-Z Sort) we often get only a first name as the default person, so everyone must enter a submission to elevate the correct name. We do need to be able to see both a public view and a personal view.

My suggestion would be to have 2 views (Personal and Public) and when ever you view an individual in your Personal View, the name displayed will be displayed in Red if the name you submitted does not agree with the one shown in the public view. If you are viewing the name shown in the Public view the same thing would happen, if you have submitted a name for that individual, the name shown in the public view will be displayed in Red if it is different than the name you submitted. Then you would know that you have submitted a name for that individual and that it disagrees with the public version of the name. The same procedure would apply to dates and places.

The public view should either display the name or event from either the (LDS Membership Record) or if none the (Most submitted version of a name). To change an incorrect LDS Membership Record you deal with Church membership, to change the most submitted version you need to convince everyone that you are right by disputing the name so they will change their submissions.

rmrichesjr wrote:If I remember correctly from the beta several months ago, there is an option somewhere to select whether the system will display only what I (the current user) have submitted vs. display everything regardless of source. Perhaps a solution to the issue of this thread would be to split the latter option into two: display everything but give priority to my own submissions (the current mode); display everything the same way everyone else sees it.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#24
OK, now I understand the "most submitted". However, I think we'd have to check and see what percentage of the time it would come out correct. Would "John Howard Doe" really outnumber "John H. Doe" all the time? Again, what about the married/maiden name issue? Legal name change (such as "Americanization")?

Keep in mind that "submissions" may be "sources". If not now, then in the future. "Record Search" has not yet been added to "new FamilySearch". I know they looking at ways of linking Record Search with the current "Tree View". How often do sources have the best full name on them?
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#25
Right now nFS treats all submissions, submissions with sources, Soruce documents, Temple Submissions and Other Opinions the same when sorting. It is just sorting each record alphabetical after the two priority records (Personal Submission) and (LDS Membership Record). At some point there may be a need for another priority to be added above the (Most Submitted), but the (Most Submitted) seems to be the best choice without some very complicated rating system.

After all, I have seen Indexing errors on Official Documents. My Grandfather was Extracted as "Sesson" when his first name is really "Sisson" on one of the Census Indexes the Church Extracted. At least with the most popular being listed, If we find a better source we can correlate or dispute and get everyone to change their submission to the better source. Ideally we will all correct our errors and all the names in the folder will someday be the same.
RussellHltn wrote:OK, now I understand the "most submitted". However, I think we'd have to check and see what percentage of the time it would come out correct. Would "John Howard Doe" really outnumber "John H. Doe" all the time? Again, what about the married/maiden name issue? Legal name change (such as "Americanization")?

Keep in mind that "submissions" may be "sources". If not now, then in the future. "Record Search" has not yet been added to "new FamilySearch". I know they looking at ways of linking Record Search with the current "Tree View". How often do sources have the best full name on them?
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#26

Ordinence Submissions

Someone pointed out in another Forum that when you print ordinance submissions the wrong name is printing on the Temple Submission. So until this is fixed people will have to enter another opinion on any name that they plan to print an ordinance card for, or the Ordinances will be done in the incomplete name.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#27

Slide Show of newFamilySeach

I have added new slides to my slide show to demonstrate how newFamilySearch displays names and to see the new Combine feature that was added last week, which doesn't require detailed comparisons for combining family members that have already been linked into the family. Comparing in more detail is still required to add (Combine) new individuals into the individual folder. Here is the link.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GarysTurn/N ... 4534870306

There is also a link to this Slide Show from my "new Family History" web site at:

http://newfamilyhistory.googlepages.com/home

You can save this web site in Favorites and use the Slide show for training, along with all the other training I have linked to at that site.

Gary
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#28
While we can no doubt improve on the automatic method of determining the displayed name, I think we ultimately must have a human input method (opinion) that is given preference in all views. Otherwise everyone will have to enter a personal opinion on every individual that the automatic system fails.

For that reason, I think the answer will take some forms of:

[own Personal Opinion], {trusted sources}, [most recent Personal Opinions of others], {automatic methods}

Your "most submitted" is a good choice of an automatic method, but I'd want to see how well it works in the real world.

I would have to be convinced that a given automatic method is more accurate then the PO of others before placing auto before PO. And I don't think that's going to happen until it gets a solid real-word test.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#29

Personal Opinions

The button that you push to create a personal opinion appears to me to just create another submission to the folder, I don't think they are distinguished any different than any other entry in the folder. So unless that is changed (or unless I am wrong) the [most recent Personal Opinions of others] could also be sorted as the most recent record combined and that could be just a first name. I don't think there is a perfect solution. We will see what the programmers at FamilySearch come up with, they are entitled to inspiration for their work, I would think. Sometimes inspiration comes while thinking about the discussions of others. I hope some of them read this thread.

Every entry in the folder is already someones human opinion or input, that is why the [most submitted version] should be displayed ahead of the (A-Z Sort). We can always disput the [most submitted version] and show our source.
RussellHltn wrote:While we can no doubt improve on the automatic method of determining the displayed name, I think we ultimately must have a human input method (opinion) that is given preference in all views. Otherwise everyone will have to enter a personal opinion on every individual that the automatic system fails.

For that reason, I think the answer will take some forms of:

[own Personal Opinion], {trusted sources}, [most recent Personal Opinions of others], {automatic methods}

Your "most submitted" is a good choice of an automatic method, but I'd want to see how well it works in the real world.

I would have to be convinced that a given automatic method is more accurate then the PO of others before placing auto before PO. And I don't think that's going to happen until it gets a solid real-word test.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#30
GarysTurn wrote:the [most recent Personal Opinions of others] could also be sorted as the most recent record combined and that could be just a first name.
OK, so someone puts in just a first name. That will cause others to see just one name so the first person to add a full name will now become default for all. It's like a Wikipedia effect. The problem with the current situation (or an automatic situation that can only be overridden by an own Personal Opinion) is that each person who is interested in that name will have to add an opinion just to get their display to look right. That could create a very large number of records and a slow system. While my idea doesn't reduce it to the minimum, it does eliminate the need for 100 personal opinions to satisfy 100 users of that combined individual.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Senior Member
#31

Automatic Sort

But, how often would the most submitted name be wrong? (10% of the time) That is the only time someone would have to enter a personal opinion to change it, and if enough people entered a better opinion that name would soon become the most submitted name and would then display for all users without a personal submission.

Below I have included a screenshot of a database I created in Access that sorts the names like I described.

Plus add my other suggestion to display in Red any name that the person has submitted that disagrees with the most submitted name and people will correlate with each other to get their submissions to all be the same. And you can communicate with each other to get people over to your side if you don't agree with the most submitted name.

One problem with a true Wiki style approach in this type of application is that every time you log onto the system someone has changed the view and people would go in and change it back again only to find it changed back the next time they log on.
RussellHltn wrote:OK, so someone puts in just a first name. That will cause others to see just one name so the first person to add a full name will now become default for all. It's like a Wikipedia effect. The problem with the current situation (or an automatic situation that can only be overridden by an own Personal Opinion) is that each person who is interested in that name will have to add an opinion just to get their display to look right. That could create a very large number of records and a slow system. While my idea doesn't reduce it to the minimum, it does eliminate the need for 100 personal opinions to satisfy 100 users of that combined individual.

Image
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Senior Member
#32

Voting option

Some have proposed some type of voting system or some way for someone to choose a display record for all to see. I orginally thought that that would be a good solution, but then I realized that there would need to be a record to hold that choice in each folder. Then what happens if there are 5 duplicates and they each have an record in them that contains this vote or choice and they get combined into one folder. Which record becomes the new record with the choices in it and what do you do with the other four records. That is when I came to the conclusion that the only way that will work is to have a sort that will elevate the most submitted version. We will just have to work with others to get disagreements resolved when we don't agree, the version that has the most submissions should still be the top record for those without a personal submission.
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct
Community Administrator
#33
I think the biggest problem with voting is that you'd have to have some kind of tracking on the votes so each user could only vote once per combined individual. That would be quite a large database.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Member
#34

Huh? part 2

Ok, so now I have my screenshots, but I still have no idea what I am looking at. :)

I think there are two basic problems with genealogy.

1. Genealogy is a time-series problem. What existed in 1400 is not what exists now.

2. Genealogy is a massively parallel task. What I am working on is tied to what you are working on, it is just a matter of time before we step on each others work.

This thread is not really concerned with the first, so I will leave that for now.

2:

If we are going to merge your genealogy to mine, we need some mechanism to do so. We have to be able to identify and resolve conflicts, and knit parts of the trees together that match.

With nFS, this is a HUGE problem, since we have a massive amount of work that has been siloed for a long time. Now we need to merge this work together.

We can learn a lot about the way to solve this problem by looking at existing systems that solve similar problems. I offer a few examples.

Source code repositories are the industry standard way of getting large teams of developers coordinated on large code repositories. These systems can be very simple, from one-at-a-time, to auto-conflict resolution and submission filters that check the code for certain attributes before allowing submissions (whitespace comes to mind). Often these systems are also part of a larger system that runs a sanity check (nightly build) periodically to verify that no critical parts fail (nightly unit testing).

Wiki's are large collaborative documents that almost anyone can modify. A few interesting trends have come from large wiki projects like Wikipedia. Most Wikipedia articles have an adoptive editor. These people protect the pages from malicious editing and obvious erroneous entries. These editors are often not permitted admin or moderator rights, they simply build a reputation for correctness. Editors also often report other users to moderators for more drastic corrections.

Wikipedia articles that are unstable are marked as such. Most of these pages do not allow edits to the main page without first agreement on the 'talk' page. Articles are also marked if they contain usable, but problematic information, or if other editing is needed.

Many open source projects have large repositories of bugs written by the user community. These bugs are often incomplete, vague, erroneous, or otherwise useless. Buried in these lists are bugs that are well written, complete and important.

Bugzilla uses a voting system to push good bugs up, and allow bad bugs to stagnate. Voting does not remove or add a bug, but only can elevate the status of existing bugs. Viewing voting statistics shows the relative importance of a bug.

All of these systems have a few things in common:

1. They all require the author to be identified. In rare cases, this is only by IP, or some other non-deterministic name. Generally anonymous users are not given the same privileges or deference to identified users. Users build credibility by with meaningful identified contribution.

2. All these systems require the contributor to justify their contribution with some sort of message. The contribution is judged by its content, AND its stated purpose at submission. Often, contributions that would otherwise be acceptable are rejected because their justification does not match the actual submission.

3. All of these system keep a complete change history. Deletions are rare, and normally only permitted to privileged users. There is always a history of all changes made, and often an easy mechanism to go back to a previous version.

4. General consent is needed before accepting a submission. Sometimes (seems half of my examples) this is implied by lack of action reverting the change. Systems that offer simple methods to roll-back changes seem to use lack-of-action. Systems that are more difficult to roll-back use more overt methods of change acceptance.


So, I don't think that answers any questions as to the way sorting should be done :). I do think it gives a good argument for the four points above to be included.

Personally, I will stick by my stance that genealogy needs to be built in a version control system like software. I think I should have my genealogy 'branch' and I should be responsible to resolve conflicts between it and the 'trunk' version of my genealogy. Only uncontested, well verified information should exist in 'trunk'.

So, if I were to sort the above. I would only show my submitted information. I would mark records that conflicted or partially matched other submissions. I would then have the option of merging the two records, or staying with my own record. I might make it possible to adopt parts of another record without merging the whole record. If I wanted to see the other records submitted. I would select the contested record and run the conflict tool to see the other records and their conflicts with my own.

Barring that, I think I would prefer the ability to filter out the records that I did not submit, and the ability to sort by submitter, or by some other criteria (like DOB or name).

I find it problematic that some information (like submitter) would be only shown in the record color. That may cause accessibility problems.

The Earl
Community Moderators
#35
Source Control would be great as I have previously mentioned, but the problem as I see it is that we need to know WHAT to give to each user as they view the trunk. Even with 2 reliable sources (Naval Census and Marriage Record in a specific case) you get two versions of a name Geo and George Leo. In this example we do not know the actual name but which one do we go with? Personally the sort that we explained previously by Russell I believe is a great solution for those that are just trying to link and get names but do not have time to verify the info before merging it.
- David
Member
#36
thedqs wrote: <snip>
we need to know WHAT to give to each user as they view the trunk. Even with 2 reliable sources (Naval Census and Marriage Record in a specific case) you get two versions of a name Geo and George Leo.
<snip>
My point is that you would make a choice. Trunk would only contain the justified, uncontested result of a merge. If you could not resolve the two records, they would remain 'branched'.

I guess you would have a UUID that would identify Geo and George Leo as candidates for [UUID]. You would be able to see all candidates for [UUID] if you requested them, but you would not by default see all of those records, just your current branch, or the current trunk version.

My original post was only partially on-topic, and I think this is starting to wander away from usefulness to the original purpose of the thread. I think I will try to gell some of my ideas and get them in a presentable form before I follow this to much farther. I will post my thoughts when they are well thought out and presentable.

Thanks
Barrie
Senior Member
#37

The most submitted name is still the best solution

In newFamilySearch all submissions, temple ordinance dates, LDS membership records and personal opinions are combined into a folder for each individual. The name displayed in the pedigrees and summary view is determined by a sort of these items in the folder. The current sort order is (1) personal submission of the current user (2) LDS membership record (3) alphabetical sort. Many have discussed different ways this should be changed to offer a more complete name in the pedigrees because when there is no personal submission or LDS membership record the alphabetical sort often only displays a first name. My suggestion was to just change the sort to (1) personal submission of the current user (2) LDS membership record (3) the most submitted version of the name. I have also recommended listing how many entries are included in a version of a name when the program says multiple (Example: [42] MULTIPLE). I have listed some reasons why I feel this is still the best method of the proposals I have seen.

-Displays a more complete name in the pedigree and summary view. If the most correct submission is not the most submitted, over time as people enter personal opinions and work together to correct their submissions the most correct name will become the most submitted and will elevate to the display record.
-Most of the time the most submitted name will already be the most correct name. Whereas most of the time the alphabetically sorted name is not the most correct.
-This will still display the user’s personal opinion in the pedigree and summary view ahead of the most submitted if it is different. People will be able to see in the details view if their submission is different from the most submitted version of a name.
-This will also display the LDS Membership Record ahead of the most submitted if it is different. If the LDS Membership Record is wrong there is already a procedure to get it corrected. Thus it encourages correcting errors in membership records.
-This method would list from top to bottom the most submitted version of a name at the top to the least submitted at the bottom (after the personal submission and LDS membership record if any).
-It is a type of voting because personal opinions are counted toward the most submitted.
-Will eliminate the need for more personal opinions. There is no need for more people to enter another opinion once the correct name is displayed, so the folders will not continue to get full as everyone enters a personal opinion in order to get the most correct name to display.
-Provides the best method for working with others. If people see that their opinion is not the most popular, they will check their own submission and correct it or try to convince others of their opinion.
-Puts incomplete submissions at the bottom of the list. Incomplete submissions are usually only sent in by one or two people.
-Does not require a complicated software source ranking system. Individuals evaluate the sources and enter an opinion and that counts toward the most submitted name.
-Once all submissions are claimed and corrected we will have an acceptable conclusion. It will be the combined conclusion of the family members and not of a computer program.
-When the life browser is added and source images are attached, if the new information changes peoples opinions all they need to do is edit their own submission and it counts toward the most submitted.
-The same procedures will work for other events (dates and places). Eventually they will want to display standardized place names but this will help until that method is perfected.
-No other programming changes other than changing the sort order and displaying the number of multiple names submitted are required, so programmers can concentrate on other functions and don’t have to spend a lot of time coming up with some type of ranking system and it will help stop the fast growing number of entries in the folders because now every user must submit another opinion to elevate the most correct name.

Gary Turner
Gary Turner
If you haven't already, please take a moment to review our new
Code of Conduct