Clerk cannot have access to the bldg Copier

Can anyone provide a logical explanation???

Our building was re-keyed last fall. As part of that process, access to the Library was removed for Clerks and Executive Secretaries. We were told (by the Stake) that this was directed by the FM group and was in compliance with Church policy.

Since there are several instances in the Handbook where the Clerk is specifically directed to provide copies, and since many of our meetings occur at times the Librarians are not there, does the Church really desire the Clerk to hand original documents to the Bishop to make copies for a meeting? I can be trusted to handle church finances, but I cannot be trusted to make copies for the Bishop.

It makes no sense at all to me...

Our building keys have been almost this way for several years already. The keys issued to the Bishopric, Ward clerk and Executive Secretary and can open the library. For all of the assistant ward clerks, we have a library key in a cabinet in the clerks office and it's easy to find... unless someone stuck it in his pocket, forgot to return it and wore different clothes the next Sunday.

Although I can't answer your question directly, I will tell you that in my case the library was on the far side of the building and (like you) I often needed to make copies of payment coupons, receipts, etc., especially when cutting fast offering checks. I quickly tired of locking everything I was doing back in the file cabinet, locking the clerk's office door behind me, going to the library and warming up the copier for one copy, then getting everything out again once I returned.

I solved the problem by donating an older flatbed scanner to the clerks office and used a freeware program called Photocopier. It's not near as fast as a true photocopier, but even the Bishop liked having the ability to make occasional onesee twosee copies without making the long trip.

davesudweeks wrote:We were told (by the Stake) that this was directed by the FM group and was in compliance with Church policy.

You might want to nicely ask where this policy can be found.

When the building was first re-keyed, we were told the Clerk and Executive Secretary would still have access to the Material Center as before. However, it quickly became apparent that this was not the case. Later, our HC who works with the FM group verified that they never intended to allow Clerks or Executive Secretaries have access to the Material Center.

Our requests for consideration to the Stake have fallen on deaf ears - "it is out of our hands, but we will pass your concern to the FM group." The Stake got around it by putting a Printer/Copier unit in the Stake Clerk's office but I seriously doubt we will be allowed to do that. Your suggestion to use a scanner would be a good one for someone who has a workable scanner lying around.

Thanks for the information. I was wondering if we were the only area that had had this experience.

davesudweeks wrote:"it is out of our hands, but we will pass your concern to the FM group."

That strikes me as odd. On matters that don't cost a lot, what I usually see is closer to "what the stake presidency wants, the stake gets".

Because of the limited access to the Material Center, in most of the buildings in our Stake we have the copier in a room other than the Materials Center. (It is usually a room or closet close to the Material Center.) This room has a common level door lock in which anyone who has a key with access to the building would have access to the copier room. In the Stake Center, the copier is in the hallway in front of the Materials Center. Access to this copier is granted by using a code programed into the copier. On this copier, every auxiliary group has a code. To use the copier, someone just enters a code and then they are able to copy.

FYI - On the Schedule of Specified Keying For Meetinghouses, other than the Ward Librarian, only the Bishop, his counselors, and the executive secretary are allowed key access to the Materials Center. The clerks are not supposed to have access. I have no idea why.

ricnel wrote:FYI - On the Schedule of Specified Keying For Meetinghouses, other than the Ward Librarian, only the Bishop, his counselors, and the executive secretary are allowed key access to the Materials Center. The clerks are not supposed to have access. I have no idea why.

The question is, is that policy or guideline? And what would it take to get a variance?

We solved the problem by replacing the printer in the clerk's office with an inexpensive multifunction laser printer, copier, fax, similar to this:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 65847.html

And, where is that policy located?

RussellHltn wrote:The question is, is that policy or guideline? And what would it take to get a variance?

It is policy for the FM Group, and they follow it. The agent bishop or stake president might authorize an exception since the clerks need access to a copier.

In most of our buildings, the satellite system is in the material center, so the clerks have availability through the technology specialist, who is usually one of them.

Here is the Church policy on keys.

ricnel wrote:Here is the Church policy on keys.

I don't anything that makes it "policy" that can't be overridden by a Bishop or Stake President.

As a STS, I find it interesting that is doesn't specifically mention that position or give the stake clerks access to the FHC or other areas needed to fulfill that calling.

RussellHltn wrote:

ricnel wrote:Here is the Church policy on keys.

I don't anything that makes it "policy" that can't be overridden by a Bishop or Stake President.

As a STS, I find it interesting that is doesn't specifically mention that position or give the stake clerks access to the FHC or other areas needed to fulfill that calling.

It's also worthy of note that this document is over 18 years old (November 1992). It's very hard to believe that this is the current set of guidelines. Back in 1992 there was no STS position; we now have actual policy statements that supersede this document. For example, the Policy and Guidelines for Computers in Family History Centers says that the "Stake Technology Specialist ... has a key to access the family history center and closets housing family history center computers and Internet hardware."

So I wouldn't put much stock in this ancient document.

aebrown wrote:It's also worthy of note that this document is over 18 years old (November 1992). It's very hard to believe that this is the current set of guidelines. . . .

So I wouldn't put much stock in this ancient document.

Buildings are still built and keyed this way. What has changed over the years is that there are now a few more people who need a key similar to the one the bishopric and executive secretary were assigned back then.

The STS, for example. And probably the Ward Clerk.

lajackson wrote:Buildings are still built and keyed this way. What has changed over the years is that there are now a few more people who need a key similar to the one the bishopric and executive secretary were assigned back then.

The STS, for example. And probably the Ward Clerk.

I'm not talking about the way buildings are built and keyed. It's a question of how the keys are distributed. That document clearly does not reflect current distribution policies in at least one obvious way (the STS), so I don't see why it should be trusted. Surely there is a more recent set of guidelines available, at least to the FM groups.

The Key Schedule I attached was sent to us via our FM Group when our Stake Center was re-keyed in 2005. It has provided our stake with valuble direction on who should be issued keys. I have not seen any other document which lays out who should receive keys. While the document may be dated, and does not include callings such as the STS, it does include most of the callings in the wards and stake. When someone requests a key for a calling which is not on the list, we discuss it with the appropriate bishop and ask the stake president to authorize the key. If they both agree, then I contact the FM Group and a key is issued. This has worked for our stake and we have issued keys to members with callings which are not on the list such as: the STS, seminary teachers, organists, and building schedulers, to name a few.

The fact that it is on Church letterhead has assisted us in issuing keys. Everyone wants a key. When we show them this document and that their calling is not on the approved list, then most members drop their requests. For those who still want a key, we discuss it with the bishop and stake president as outlined above. If we were to give keys to everyone who thinks they need one, then it would be unmanagable. This schedule has been very helpful in keeping the keys to a managable level.

ricnel wrote:The fact that it is on Church letterhead has assisted us in issuing keys. Everyone wants a key. When we show them this document and that their calling is not on the approved list, then most members drop their requests. For those who still want a key, we discuss it with the bishop and stake president as outlined above. If we were to give keys to everyone who thinks they need one, then it would be unmanagable. This schedule has been very helpful in keeping the keys to a managable level.

No argument that there have been problems with too many keys in the past. However, the pendulum has now swung too far the other way, in my opinion. My main concern is that the church has now effectively decided that it is more important for the Bishop to stand at the photocopier instead of having his clerk take care of that purely administrative task. As a former Bishop, I can state with experience that running copies is very, very low on the priority list of what a Bishop should be doing. This concern likely cannot be answered in this forum, but we now have a situation were there are so few keys that they are being loaned back and forth between Presidency members, etc. Talk about being unmanageable...

davesudweeks wrote:No argument that there have been problems with too many keys in the past. However, the pendulum has now swung too far the other way, in my opinion. My main concern is that the church has now effectively decided that it is more important for the Bishop to stand at the photocopier instead of having his clerk take care of that purely administrative task. As a former Bishop, I can state with experience that running copies is very, very low on the priority list of what a Bishop should be doing. This concern likely cannot be answered in this forum, but we now have a situation were there are so few keys that they are being loaned back and forth between Presidency members, etc. Talk about being unmanageable...

This very topic continues to come up over and over on the boards. It was particularly interesting as permissions were rolled out with the online tools. I realize the high importance of the role of the Bishop or the Stake President, and understand when the handbooks and instructions rightly put... Under the authorization of the Bishop... we need to find a way to realistically approach these situations.

I started to take this thread way... off but decided against it.

Unless I missed it in this thread, no one has quoted the original source as to why the clerk and others, are not allowed keys to the library. It comes directly out of the older Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, Page 286. But this is the old Handbook and has now been replaced, and the new one does not mention the distribution of library keys. Whether or not this key policy is still in effect, since the old Handbook had it in, and the new one does not, is up for debate. I just thought I would provide the quote for the original source of the policy. The actual quote from the old Handbook is "The distribution of library keys is limited to the following members; librarians, bishoprics, stake presidencies and custodians. Seminary and institute teachers who are holding classes in the building may also receive library keys." So, it also depends upon whether you consider the ward clerk to be part of the bishopric.

jonashton wrote: It comes directly out of the older Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, Page 286.

Wow, you have an amazing memory to be able to quote word for word from a destroyed handbook (all old handbooks were, of course, destroyed according to policy last year).

aebrown wrote:Wow, you have an amazing memory to be able to quote word for word from a destroyed handbook (all old handbooks were, of course, destroyed according to policy last year).

Obviously this good brother is following President Monson's example:

"The government of East Germany would not allow Church materials to be taken into the country. So I was asked by President Spencer W. Kimball to memorize the new edition of what we then called the General Handbook of Instructions, to cross the border into East Germany, and then to type the handbook for the faithful Church leaders there. Although it would have been impossible for anyone to actually memorize the entire book, I did study it thoroughly and learned the concepts from cover to cover. I traveled to East Germany and asked the Church leaders there for an office, a typewriter, and a ream of paper. I commenced typing.

An hour or two—and many pages—later, I stood up to stretch, glanced around the room, and noticed on a bookshelf behind me a copy of the new edition of the General Handbook of Instructions in the German language. Someone had obviously smuggled it across the border. Since that time, I’ve been rather knowledgeable concerning the contents of that book."

President Thomas S. Monson "Opening Remarks", 2010 Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting, 2010

If only the Church would upgrade to code-controlled doors (e.g., Omnilock), the sister problems of too-wide distribution of keys and retrieving keys following releases would go away. I'm not necessarily advocating networked locks, but a few such strategically-chosen locks (building access, library, offices) would not be that much more work for FM.

So, it also depends upon whether you consider the ward clerk to be part of the bishopric.

That was my thought as well, seeing as how the ward clerk and the exec. sec. are listed that way in the leadership directories. I think my bishop would have a meltdown if he became unable to depend on the WC (me) and the Exec. Sec. to take care of copy-making.

ricnel wrote:FYI - On the Schedule of Specified Keying For Meetinghouses, other than the Ward Librarian, only the Bishop, his counselors, and the executive secretary are allowed key access to the Materials Center. The clerks are not supposed to have access. I have no idea why.

I wish we had the problem of too little access to the copier. In our building the clerk keys open the library. That means anyone that has a clerk key can access the copier. This includes quorum and auxiliary presidencies.

Also, my Bishop gave me a Bishop key because he wants me to be able to put information on his desk rather than in the clerks office.

forrjoel wrote:If only the Church would upgrade to code-controlled doors (e.g., Omnilock), the sister problems of too-wide distribution of keys and retrieving keys following releases would go away. I'm not necessarily advocating networked locks, but a few such strategically-chosen locks (building access, library, offices) would not be that much more work for FM.

That would be nice, but I'm guessing cost also prohibits this.

There are buildings in the church that use 'code-controlled' locks (our stake center for one). In my mind the problem is even worse than with physical keys. At least with physical keys you can limit the total number available (and they cannot be easily copied). But anyone can (and some do) give the code to anyone including non-members.

Sure, you can change the codes, but then you have to give the code to everyone that is authorized. Which can also be a nightmare.

ggllbb wrote:There are buildings in the church that use 'code-controlled' locks (our stake center for one). In my mind the problem is even worse than with physical keys. At least with physical keys you can limit the total number available (and they cannot be easily copied). But anyone can (and some do) give the code to anyone including non-members.
Sure, you can change the codes, but then you have to give the code to everyone that is authorized. Which can also be a nightmare.

So, you give each member who needs to get in their own code and they are responsible for the use thereof. You also do periodic audits of the logins to look for anything out of the ordinary.

Aaron Z

I think retina scanners would work better. Then there is no question about who is opening a door, usually.

I'd think the RFID cards that are so common in business would be a reasonable compromise. Sure, someone could lend the card, but it can't be duplicated like keys or codes. Individual cards can be shut off. Seems like replacing a lost card is cheaper the rekeying the whole building.

Hand them out with Temple Recommends, that's what I say!!!

JohnShaw wrote:Hand them out with Temple Recommends, that's what I say!!!

Put in a barcode reader on the doors, then you can use your recommend to open the door.

Aaron Z

What would Jesus do?

ricnel wrote:Here is the Church policy on keys.

Is this Church Policy on Keys current in 2012?
Regards

wtaylorbasil wrote:Is this Church Policy on Keys current in 2012?

The policy you linked to is nearly 20 years old. As you can see from the replies after that post, there is extreme skepticism from some people that it could possibly still be current, while the person who posted it claims that the fact that it was purported to be current as of 7 years ago makes it reliable now. I'm definitely in the skeptical camp.

Given that no one has been able to cite a reliable current worldwide policy on this topic, I would recommend that you work through your stake's Physical Facilities Representative with your local Facilities Management Group. They're the ones responsible for making and distributing keys for your stake's buildings. They have guidelines and work within those guidelines to be responsive to the stake president's requests.