Handbook instructions relative to CUBS

I have really come up with a question here. On page 3 of our instructions we received prior to the CUBS change over dated 8 Oct 2010, in the first full paragraph it says that December Budget balances will be carried "forward to the next year".

In section 14.7.2 of CHI 1, under "General Principles and Guidelines", it says that unneeded ward funds are returned to the stake.

I am assuming that the CHI trumps the "Message Received from Church Headquarters" entitled " CUBS EDOC - NEW LOCAL UNIT FINANCIAL PROCESSES UPDATE".

Is this another example of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing?

On the CUBS matter, I'm thinking that the instructions were probably prepared before those that had prepared them knew what would be in the Chapter 14 of Book 1. I've seen that happen before in other unrelated settings where something was introduced only to see it changed a very short time later.

This would be a good question to ask the bishop or stake president, they should be able to get direction on something like this, especially since one or the other is going to apply in just under three weeks from now.

As to the meeting, very good and thorough, everything was thoughtfully considered, and it will go a long way in helping leaders now and in the future understand the role of themselves in the council setting, and the handbooks themselves, I said in either this or another thread that I believed this to be a significant day in the history of the Church, and it did not disappoint, from viewing the handbook today, spent a good part of the day just going over it, and then viewing the meeting, it all is going to mean a lot to me as well as everyone else who has or will yet serve in a leadership calling.

And it's good to see Elder Packer looking and sounding better than he has the last few times we've seen him. To see him on his feet is a very good thing.

wcooke wrote: in the first full paragraph it says that December Budget balances will be carried "forward to the next year".

In section 14.7.2 of CHI 1, under "General Principles and Guidelines", it says that unneeded ward funds are returned to the stake.

I'm not sure as that's a contradiction. Certainly if there's an excess, then it should be (manually) turned over to the stake. But that doesn't mean that it won't roll over.

wcooke wrote:
Is this another example of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing?

The CHI 1 also mentions reconciling the monthly statement.

Let's not forget that CUBS only applies to the United States and Canada. Many of these policies will still apply to other places in the world. My guess would be that those units using CUBS will be instructed to follow the instructions that came with the roll-out, and units without CUBS will continue to do things as directed by the handbooks. Also, as with the past books, clerks will likely find more up-to-date training and policies on the Church's website than they find in the CHI.

LVAllen wrote:The CHI 1 also mentions reconciling the monthly statement.

That's still a correct statement. You just have to take a broader view of the word "reconciling" than following the exact process we ran through each month before CUBS. There will still be deposit shortages and overages to deal with, and other items that will show up on the new financial statement's Action Items section. There is also the need for vigilance in making sure that transactions downloaded from CUBS to MLS are correct. Also, note that the new financial statement requires review and signature by the priesthood leader and clerk. Any of these activities can be described as a reconciliation.

wcooke wrote:On page 3 of our instructions we received prior to the CUBS change over dated 8 Oct 2010, in the first full paragraph it says that December Budget balances will be carried "forward to the next year".

In section 14.7.2 of CHI 1, under "General Principles and Guidelines", it says that unneeded ward funds are returned to the stake.

I am assuming that the CHI trumps the "Message Received from Church Headquarters" entitled " CUBS EDOC - NEW LOCAL UNIT FINANCIAL PROCESSES UPDATE".

Is this another example of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing?

I think this is more a case of the CUBS instructions letting us know that any balance will roll over to the new year in MLS, but that the Principle and Guideline in the new Handbook 1 is that unneeded funds should be returned to the stake, which would require a manual process to accomplish (i.e., the ward would need to write a check).

JamesAnderson wrote:And it's good to see Elder Packer looking and sounding better than he has the last few times we've seen him. To see him on his feet is a very good thing.

He was looking well in the broadcast, although if you watched carefully, he was sitting on a stool-type chair as he spoke. Nevertheless, his message was superb and timely.

lajackson wrote:I think this is more a case of the CUBS instructions letting us know that any balance will roll over to the new year in MLS, but that the Principle and Guideline in the new Handbook 1 is that unneeded funds should be returned to the stake, which would require a manual process to accomplish (i.e., the ward would need to write a check).

RussellHltn wrote:I'm not sure as that's a contradiction. Certainly if there's an excess, then it should be (manually) turned over to the stake. But that doesn't mean that it won't roll over.

Oh, Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wcooke wrote:Oh, Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I fail to see why you're so sure you caught the Church in a contradiction here. RussellHltn and lajackson gave very reasonable explanations. There is no contradiction, unless you assume that "unneeded" and "unspent" are the exact same words in the English language, which they are not.

The CUBS instructions say that balances are carried forward at the end of the year. That means any money that is not spent will be carried forward. That is a 100% true statement, as you will find out on January 1. Note also that the CUBS statement says nothing about whether those amounts are positive or negative. Negative balances will be carried forward, just as positive balances are.

The Handbook principle being taught is that wards should not be holding on to unneeded funds. That is also 100% true -- if there is no need for budget funds for a particular unit, those funds should be moved to another unit or back to the Church where the funds can be used for some good purpose. The bishop and stake president have a responsibility to make sure unneeded funds are not retained.

I know this thread has progressed to access to CHI1, but going back to my previous posts. I understand what Alan said, but I guess that we looked it slightly differently. When we heard about the "roll over", our Bishop was very pleased. That policy would seem to "reward" those wards who, during one year, were very fiscally prudent, and didn't spend all of their funds, by letting them use those few dollars left from the previous year for expenses the next year.

I know that with the previous policy, and I guess it remains so, that those wards who have funds left over towards the end of the year will be tempted spend those funds at the end of the year on things that they might not have spent them on if they could have carried the funds over.

Anyway, of course we will follow policy and learn and grow from obedience. All in all, the more I find out about the CUBS system, the more I like it. It seems that it will, over all, be an easier system to use once we get into next year..

I really appreciate this forum. As you can see, I just recently "stumbled" on it, and have learned so much. Thank you to all of you who contribute.

wcooke wrote:I know this thread has progressed to access to CHI1, but going back to my previous posts. I understand what Alan said, but I guess that we looked it slightly differently. When we heard about the "roll over", our Bishop was very pleased. That policy would seem to "reward" those wards who, during one year, were very fiscally prudent, and didn't spend all of their funds, by letting them use those few dollars left from the previous year for expenses the next year.

I know that with the previous policy, and I guess it remains so, that those wards who have funds left over towards the end of the year will be tempted spend those funds at the end of the year on things that they might not have spent them on if they could have carried the funds over.

Anyway, of course we will follow policy and learn and grow from obedience. All in all, the more I find out about the CUBS system, the more I like it. It seems that it will, over all, be an easier system to use once we get into next year..

I really appreciate this forum. As you can see, I just recently "stumbled" on it, and have learned so much. Thank you to all of you who contribute.

I believe that you and your bishop have interpreted it correctly and your view is in line with Alan's comments if I understand them correctly. Not trying to put words in Alan's mouth here. If your ward is "fiscally prudent" and has funds remaining, those funds roll over to the new year and can be used. The key is, that if your unit doesn't need those funds, the appropriate thing to do is to give them back to the stake so they can be reallocated to a better use than simply sitting in your ward account.

Two things could happen that might test your patience. A stake may just decide to pull any leftover funds without regard to a bishop's plans (not sure if they can do this without the ward writing a check). Or your unit might be nice and send the funds back and they will then be reallocated to a ward full of spendthrifts. In either case, doing what is right will bring blessings and every ward should have enough money in their budget to get the work done.

I believe that what is often lost in budget discussions is the understanding that these are sacred funds that have been donated (oftentimes at great sacrifice) for the building up of the Kingdom. I have concerns about a ward that hurriedly spends the remaining budget at the end of the year so they don't "lose their money". If the purchases were important, why did they wait until the end of the year? And if they are buying relatively useless stuff, couldn't those funds be put to a more important purpose? These are rhetorical questions and not aimed at any person or ward in particular. Just something to think about.

wcooke wrote:I know that with the previous policy, and I guess it remains so, that those wards who have funds left over towards the end of the year will be tempted spend those funds at the end of the year on things that they might not have spent them on if they could have carried the funds over.

There is no change in policy. The stake president has always controlled the issue of rollover, and still does. It's just that with the previous software, the default implementation was to not rollover, and now the default is for wards to rollover.

Under the previous system, our stake chose to allow wards to carry forward surpluses (and deficits, if any). We simply incorporated those numbers in our allocation calculations. We had determined several years ago that we didn't want any "use it or lose it" thinking, and that's why we implemented that policy. So we're not making any significant change -- it's just that under CUBS, the default behavior makes our existing policy that much easier to implement.

Under the new system, a stake president may certainly determine that he wants wards to send in a check at the end of the year for any surplus budget funds. That's his prerogative even now, but under CUBS this takes more work.

[NOTE: I split this discussion (which was reasonably self-contained) into its own thread from the New Church Handbook of Instructions 2010? thread.]

idjeeper wrote:I believe that you and your bishop have interpreted it correctly and your view is in line with Alan's comments if I understand them correctly. Not trying to put words in Alan's mouth here. If your ward is "fiscally prudent" and has funds remaining, those funds roll over to the new year and can be used. The key is, that if your unit doesn't need those funds, the appropriate thing to do is to give them back to the stake so they can be reallocated to a better use than simply sitting in your ward account.

The best place to determine what will happen in a specific ward is probably for the bishop to talk with the stake president. The stake president will be the one who determines how excess funds are handled at the end of the year. Anything we come up with is, at best, conjecture about how it might be handled for a given stake.

scgallafent wrote:The best place to determine what will happen in a specific ward is probably for the bishop to talk with the stake president. The stake president will be the one who determines how excess funds are handled at the end of the year. Anything we come up with is, at best, conjecture about how it might be handled for a given stake.

You are correct and I should have made this clear. As you and Alan said, ultimately it is the Stake President's call.

And thanks to Alan. There was a bit of a hijack going so splitting the two threads will make things easier to reference in the future.