LockedLDS Linux

Believe it or not, I have looked up the domains ldsos.org, ldsos.net and ldsos.com and they are owned by a gentleman in the Provo area. However, I believe an LDS version of Linux is a good idea. I have been part of the Puppy Linux community for about a year and, during this time, have maintained my own dirivitive. My current version can be found at http://www.ipup.info. iPup stands for "Institutional Puplet" (a puplet being a dirivitive work based on Puppy). Puppy is unique, in that it not only can as a "live" CD or be loaded on to a USB flash drive (booting directly from the flash drive), but it saves all changes that are made (settings, programs, etc.). It seems that such a distribution would work well for Wards and Stakes. Such a distribution could be used for geneology, ward finances and records, etc.

Sincerely,

Todd Richardson

What would you envision being unique about a lds linux as opposed to the other flavors of linux there? I can see a unique package, but what would be different about the OS itself?

Building a distribution from source would not necessarily be a requirement. It should, however, be small enough to fit on one CD. As well, it should have PAF and other important LDS software. It should have LDS themed wallpaper and lds.org as it's browser homepage. It's software should be vetted so as not to include anything of questionable origin. It should have it's own forum.

Todd

I'd up it to fit on one DVD. 700MB is a kinda tight to handle the OS, MLS, Java (required by MLS), OpenOffice, PAF, Acrobat Reader, Scriptures, web browser, etc and still have space for future expansion.

Clerk computers are currently on a 5-year replacement, so a drive that will read DVDs is not unreasonable.

I think that he wanted this as a viable OS for members of the church to use, so MLS wouldn't be necessary, but Java would because you could include the extraction program and possibly nFS client. Also filters could be installed, and other church software previously mentioned.

And yes most members have DVD drives so being on a bootable DVD would be great, now how would we store information since most Live Disks just store docs and everything on a Ram Disk which might confuse people as to why their documents just disappear.

Linux still needs work on writing to NTFS (it can read just fine) and that is what most people have their hard drives formatted as.

thedqs wrote:I think that he wanted this as a viable OS for members of the church to use, so MLS wouldn't be necessary...

Are you implying that the functionality of MLS would be built into the OS itself, and not in a stand-alone application?

Also, how are we supposing these apps are going to run under Linux? Are we talking some Windows Emulator? Or are we talking about a rewrite of MLS and PAF?

MLS is a java program similar to the indexing program.
PAF, on the other hand, would require a emulator but I think that the nFS client would be adaquate.

mkmurray wrote:Are you implying that the functionality of MLS would be built into the OS itself, and not in a stand-alone application?

Either way how many members need a running copy of MLS at home. And since I am assuming the target of this OS was for normal members even having MLS would just be a space filler.

thedqs wrote:MLS is a java program similar to the indexing program.
PAF, on the other hand, would require a emulator but I think that the nFS client would be adaquate.

Ah.... I wasn't aware of that.

Yea my dad (who was the Ward Clerk during the MIS to MLS change) complained a lot about the Java interface and other bugs and limitations. Most of which have been expressed in the forums already.

One of my fellow coworkers was on the team the Church contracted that created the original MLS in Java.

thedqs wrote:Either way how many members need a running copy of MLS at home. And since I am assuming the target of this OS was for normal members even having MLS would just be a space filler.

I guess when somebody brought up MLS, I began assuming the LDS-specific Linux distro was for computers at Church buildings. If MLS hadn't been mentioned, I would have assumed regular home use for members.

mkmurray wrote:I guess when somebody brought up MLS, I began assuming the LDS-specific Linux distro was for computers at Church buildings.

I was the first to mention MLS, but I was keying off of this in message #1:

It seems that such a distribution would work well for Wards and Stakes. Such a distribution could be used for geneology, ward finances and records, etc.

As for my stand on this, I don't hold any hope for this going anywhere but I'm willing to play with the idea and see where it goes.

Hmm when I read the post for some reason I understood home user with (geneology, finances, records, etc) (Yes, that is not a quote but how I interpreted it). For ward computers I don't see the difference except for the OS since all that software comes with the church computers already. The reason I think the church will stay with windows for church computers though is because most people who use the computers would feel lost, confused, etc when going to a Linux distro.

As for home computer LDSOS I think that it would be great as a live cd that they could pop in (of course they do have the option of installing it on the hard drive) run their church programs in a new environment and if they didn't like it just popout the disk and reboot.

thedqs wrote:The reason I think the church will stay with windows for church computers though is because most people who use the computers would feel lost, confused, etc when going to a Linux distro.

Not to mention local support issues. (I suspect there are more Windows power users then Linix power users.)

thedqs wrote:As for home computer LDSOS I think that it would be great as a live cd that they could pop in (of course they do have the option of installing it on the hard drive) run their church programs in a new environment and if they didn't like it just popout the disk and reboot.

Where it would really help is donated machines without an OS. When it comes time to dump the machines in our FHC, I'm going to have to scrub the OS off of them because it's part of the church's site license. Only one of them has a Microsoft sticker and I think that's for Win98. A simple one-step install to make it usable for some member would be great. It would also be a good niche to build on to show what can be done and encourage the eventual switch to Open Source OS.

A good starting point might be "edubuntu"
http://edubuntu.org/
(or one of the other ubuntu distros)

with the following softwares?

start building a set of links of sites and stuff that would help build a "working" computer that would allow someone to get going on a very basic computer and would provide all of the useful things that someone would need to fulfill all of their church obligations and still be "fun" and useful.

open office (productivity software)
firefox (web browser)
thunderbird (mail)
sunbird (calendar)
Evolution (open source Outlook type program)

some kind of adobe reader
genealogy software
music player
games

and so on...

some links of note
http://ldsoss.org
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ldsdps/
http://www.latterdaymac.com

Rich Leonard

thedqs wrote:I think that he wanted this as a viable OS for members of the church to use, so MLS wouldn't be necessary, but Java would because you could include the extraction program and possibly nFS client. Also filters could be installed, and other church software previously mentioned.

And yes most members have DVD drives so being on a bootable DVD would be great, now how would we store information since most Live Disks just store docs and everything on a Ram Disk which might confuse people as to why their documents just disappear.

Linux still needs work on writing to NTFS (it can read just fine) and that is what most people have their hard drives formatted as.

As I understand it, the problem with Linux writing to NTFS is actually not on Linux's side, but (based on my study) the company that owns NTFS refusing to make documentation available and allegedly changing the format from time to time in ways that some believe are designed to thwart efforts to make Linux able to write to it.

thedqs wrote:MLS is a java program similar to the indexing program.
PAF, on the other hand, would require a emulator but I think that the nFS client would be adaquate.

PAF works reasonably well for many/most practical purposes using WINE (WINE Is Not an Emulator). WINE can be redistributed under terms of the LGPL, so including WINE should not be a problem. PAF's license may be a difficulty, because it only allows "incidental, noncommercial church or home use" and prohibits selling it.

Do you have a pointer to this "nFS client"? I have heard mention that there would be an open-source application that would use the NFS API, but I haven't seen anything specific to indicate it is actually being developed. Do you have a pointer?

thedqs wrote:Either way how many members need a running copy of MLS at home. And since I am assuming the target of this OS was for normal members even having MLS would just be a space filler.

It would be WONDERFUL to be able to do MLS work from home, for those whose callings require use of MLS. (Each trip to the meetinghouse to enter home teaching visits costs me a few dollars in gas and nearly as much time traveling as actually using MLS once I get there.) However, the current MLS keeps the most current data on the local unit administrative computer, so that basic architecture would have to change before MLS could be used from homes.

RussellHltn wrote:Not to mention local support issues. (I suspect there are more Windows power users then Linix power users.)

You might be surprised. In my previous ward, there were at least three Linux power users that I was acquainted with. In my current ward in a rural county, there's at least myself and one other who could administer Linux systems immediately, and a few others who could spin up fairly quickly _if_ that were to happen.

There are a lot of Linux distros that will run live off of a CD/DVD or USB Stick. I think that the real market for doing that is for portability. Otherwise it is much more convenient to install on the hard drive.

Having spent 5 years as the CTO for Linspire, I can say that although Linux has come a long way, for non-technical users (and even some technical ones) it still has some rough edges. I'm a huge advocate of Linux and my wife and family use it daily. However most windows apps don't work under Wine. While at Linspire, we spent around 500K on improving and developing Wine. We did this through an agreement with the Crossover guys. Our goal was to get office 2K to work flawlessly. We finally came to the conclusion that it is better to spend money on education than in emulation.

As far as an LDSOS distro goes, I think it would be a great community project for families. Eventually the Church could take a look at it but I think it would be best to build one for families. Gramps is a good alternative to PAF, OpenOffice for MS Office, Firefox -> IE, etc. Build it with a squid proxy filter in to help with internet filtering and you could make a cool homework computer.

Tom

rmrichesjr wrote:As I understand it, the problem with Linux writing to NTFS is actually not on Linux's side, but (based on my study) the company that owns NTFS refusing to make documentation available and allegedly changing the format from time to time in ways that some believe are designed to thwart efforts to make Linux able to write to it.

Yes that is true that NTFS keeps on changing and that there is no documentation, but of course it is a propiertary format. Most people don't invest time, effort and money into a commercial product and then publish the How To on how to make your own without some cost. (Of course when everyone is concerned for their neighbor and the betterment of society that might be different)

rmrichesjr wrote:PAF works reasonably well for many/most practical purposes using WINE (WINE Is Not an Emulator). WINE can be redistributed under terms of the LGPL, so including WINE should not be a problem. PAF's license may be a difficulty, because it only allows "incidental, noncommercial church or home use" and prohibits selling it.

I am sure that if the church distributes this version that it wouldn't be a problem. But are you thinking of creating a flavor of Linux that you would sell? I thought that was against the GPL.

rmrichesjr wrote:Do you have a pointer to this "nFS client"? I have heard mention that there would be an open-source application that would use the NFS API, but I haven't seen anything specific to indicate it is actually being developed. Do you have a pointer?

*nFS ptrToNFS
Actually from the group working on nFS during the tech talks here in Provo they talked about the client so I do know that it is in production, just not what the status on it is. The church has asked us at work, I work for OnePage Geneology, though to create applications that interface into nFS.

rmrichesjr wrote:It would be WONDERFUL to be able to do MLS work from home, for those whose callings require use of MLS. (Each trip to the meetinghouse to enter home teaching visits costs me a few dollars in gas and nearly as much time traveling as actually using MLS once I get there.) However, the current MLS keeps the most current data on the local unit administrative computer, so that basic architecture would have to change before MLS could be used from homes.

How would you sync the data between the computers and how would you secure your personal computer at home? Also does headquarters allow two computers to simultaneously access the CHQ databases?

tomw wrote:I can say that although Linux has come a long way, for non-technical users (and even some technical ones) it still has some rough edges.

At the risk of starting a OS flame war:D, there's the Unix Hater's Handbook. It's 10 years old, so some things have been fixed. I've seen a review that says it's infuriating and yet a call to arms to fix the remaining flaws.

I offer the link in the spirit of a friendly tease :p, and to confirm the quote back above.

thedqs wrote:I am sure that if the church distributes this version that it wouldn't be a problem. But are you thinking of creating a flavor of Linux that you would sell? I thought that was against the GPL.



*nFS ptrToNFS
Actually from the group working on nFS during the tech talks here in Provo they talked about the client so I do know that it is in production, just not what the status on it is. The church has asked us at work, I work for OnePage Geneology, though to create applications that interface into nFS.



How would you sync the data between the computers and how would you secure your personal computer at home? Also does headquarters allow two computers to simultaneously access the CHQ databases?

When I said the PAF license would be a problem, I was thinking of someone other than the Church making the distribution. The GPL doesn't have a problem with selling software. There are places where you can buy CDs of a number of Linux distributions. What the GPL does say is a reseller cannot prohibit his customers from also selling or giving it away.

Thanks for the word that applications are being developed to work with the NFS API.

Syncing the data between computers is the main issue that I meant would require a change in architecture before MLS could be used from home. MLS would have to be changed from a model that the live data is on the computer in the ward clerk's office to a model that the live data is on a server at headquarters, basically turning the clerk's office computers into thin clients. Simultaneous access would fall out of the design of that model.

rmrichesjr wrote:When I said the PAF license would be a problem, I was thinking of someone other than the Church making the distribution. The GPL doesn't have a problem with selling software. There are places where you can buy CDs of a number of Linux distributions. What the GPL does say is a reseller cannot prohibit his customers from also selling or giving it away.

Oh, ok. I just thought people got around the supposed "cannot sell" by selling documentation for Linux or support for Linux.

rmrichesjr wrote:The GPL doesn't have a problem with selling software. There are places where you can buy CDs of a number of Linux distributions. What the GPL does say is a reseller cannot prohibit his customers from also selling or giving it away.

In addition, any software you sell that is GPL'ed you also need to provide source code for. So, in summary, you can sell GPL software but you also have to provide code to what you sell. If, for example, you sold package 'abc' that is covered under the GPL license, you have to provide anyone who purchased the software from you a link to, or a CD or other media containing the source code. You don't need to provide the source code to anyone in the world, just those who purchased the software from you.

Tom

thedqs wrote:...

Linux still needs work on writing to NTFS (it can read just fine) and that is what most people have their hard drives formatted as.

By way of information, it looks like progress is being made. This just appeared in Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.misc:

From mbbs@telenet.be Fri Jul 27 10:52:22 2007
...
From: Marc <mbbs@telenet.be>
Subject: Re: backups for dummies?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
...
Message-ID: <f9pqi.18616$rK3.852106@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:35:23 GMT
...
Linux can perfectly write to NTFS nowadays.
You need to install the ntfs-3g driver.
It was experimental before, but now it has matured and is reliable

The ntfs-3g driver is an open source, GPL licensed, third generation Linux
NTFS driver for 32-bit, little-endian architectures which was implemented
by the Linux-NTFS project. It provides full read-write access to NTFS,
excluding access to encrypted files, writing compressed files, changing
file ownership, access right.

rmrichesjr wrote:It provides full read-write access to NTFS,
excluding access to encrypted files, writing compressed files, changing
file ownership, access right.

Does anyone know what ahppens if it encouters a compressed or encrypted file/folder or what happens if a user tries to change ownership/access rights?

Tom

I posted elsewhere the same idea and now I find a forum for it. Great!
I'm interesting to an LDS/GNULinux distribution.
I tried to run PAF with Wine having bad results. Maybe working on it (Wine I mean) a little bit it's possible have more chance, but there is an Open Source project, GRAMPS, who works with LDS ordinances.
I know. All members know PAF, they are acquainted with, ecc. We can have ward classes on it.
It will be interesting build such a distribution.
Have some suggestions? (Sorry for my english, I'm an italian member).

PAF works quite well with Wine (except a few regressions that happen every once in a while). The Wine AppDB page for PAF 5 is at http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=1706

I recommend Wine version 0.9.50. You are welcome to email me if I can be of further help getting PAF working for you.

tomw wrote:Does anyone know what ahppens if it encouters a compressed or encrypted file/folder or what happens if a user tries to change ownership/access rights?

Tom

I've been using ntfs-3g on my Ubuntu desktops at home and have had no problems reading to and writing from NTFS partitions. It's a part of the extra repositories as of Feisty Fawn 7.04. Also, I've encountered no problems due to usage rights, but that is an interesting question about encrypted files.

If you want, you could always run these operating systems through virtual machines. I run Ubuntu on top of Windows, and I've run Windows XP and Vista on top of Ubuntu. Check out VirtualBox for an open-source virtual machine.

midgleyne wrote:I've been using ntfs-3g on my Ubuntu desktops at home and have had no problems reading to and writing from NTFS partitions. It's a part of the extra repositories as of Feisty Fawn 7.04. Also, I've encountered no problems due to usage rights, but that is an interesting question about encrypted files.

...

NTFS drivers have been included with the linux kernel source for a couple of years. They are marked as experimental, and are not included in binary form on most distributions. If you compile your kernel / modules, and select the EXPERIMENTAL flag, you should see read / write NTFS as a filesystem option on ALL linux distributions.

I have used NTFS with linux a few times without problems. I have not played with permissions or whatnot, but I haven't run into problems with them either. In my experience, 'EXPERIMENTAL', if included in the stable releases is much more stable than most 'beta' software from commercial companies. NOT so stable I would use it on a production system, but stable enough that unless you do something strange, you aren't going to break it.

Besides, real men use HPFS

The Earl wrote:NTFS drivers have been included with the linux kernel source for a couple of years. They are marked as experimental, and are not included in binary form on most distributions. If you compile your kernel / modules, and select the EXPERIMENTAL flag, you should see read / write NTFS as a filesystem option on ALL linux distributions.

I have used NTFS with linux a few times without problems. I have not played with permissions or whatnot, but I haven't run into problems with them either. In my experience, 'EXPERIMENTAL', if included in the stable releases is much more stable than most 'beta' software from commercial companies. NOT so stable I would use it on a production system, but stable enough that unless you do something strange, you aren't going to break it.

Besides, real men use HPFS

ntfs-3g (http://ntfs-3g.org/) has been stable since February 2007, and continues to receive stable releases. Its 12+-year development continues to this day, and is both open and free. You don't have to recompile the kernel to enjoy its advantages, either. It's an impressive project well worth looking into for those who enjoy having multiple partitions. As for me, I've resorted to ext3.

marianomarini_vi wrote:I posted elsewhere the same idea and now I find a forum for it. Great!
I'm interesting to an LDS/GNULinux distribution.
I tried to run PAF with Wine having bad results. Maybe working on it (Wine I mean) a little bit it's possible have more chance, but there is an Open Source project, GRAMPS, who works with LDS ordinances.
I know. All members know PAF, they are acquainted with, ecc. We can have ward classes on it.
It will be interesting build such a distribution.
Have some suggestions? (Sorry for my english, I'm an italian member).

I have found a fairly good Linux geneology program called FTree. It reads and write GEDCOM 5.5 files. The author has it compiled as a RPM as well as binary tarball. I am a Puppy LInux user and found the tarball easy to convert to the PET format Puppy uses. I have also installed the RPM on a Fedora 8 computer and had no problems.

Todd

I gave a look at it and find it lacks LDS ordinances. So I think GRAMPS is still the best alternative to PAF.
Sorry, I looked at the screen shot and .. IT HAS! I'll give it a chance.

marianomarini_vi wrote:...
I tried to run PAF with Wine having bad results. Maybe working on it (Wine I mean) a little bit it's possible have more chance, ...

Please note, the above quote is from February of 2008, over a year ago.

PAF works very well with several recent versions of Wine. At the moment, the built-in help window doesn't display. However development versions 1.1.6 through 1.1.11 ran PAF practically perfectly. There's a link to the AppDB page in an earlier post in this thread.

Though the United States doesn't seem to want to embrace Linux, I believe, that for our Church to become a truly worldwide church, we need to embrace it. Those reading this thread are the vanguard. Wine and Java are not the answer. Recompiling PAF for Linux would be. I would also throw in a version for Mac. Being that PAF is proprietary, this needs to be done by the Corporation. If the Corporation is unwilling to do this, one must expect the Linux users of the world to migrate to Ftree or GRAMPS.

Linux is the operating system of the rest of the world. The United States just hasn't realized it.

Todd

todd wrote:Though the United States doesn't seem to want to embrace Linux, I believe, that for our Church to become a truly worldwide church, we need to embrace it. Those reading this thread are the vanguard. Wine and Java are not the answer. Recompiling PAF for Linux would be. I would also throw in a version for Mac. Being that PAF is proprietary, this needs to be done by the Corporation. If the Corporation is unwilling to do this, one must expect the Linux users of the world to migrate to Ftree or GRAMPS.

Linux is the operating system of the rest of the world. The United States just hasn't realized it.

Todd

While I can't speak for the Church and it's interest in Linux, this article may be of interest to you in regards to the Future of PAF.

todd wrote:Linux is the operating system of the rest of the world. The United States just hasn't realized it.

I don't see any merit to your claim whatsoever. Here is a chart showing the worldwide market share for operating systems:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operati ... px?qprid=8

Linux is not even 1% of the market. And here are the trends over the last year:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-mark ... px?qprid=9

I'm not really that surprised to see Mac taking away over 2% of the market from Microsoft (and then another half percent because of the iPhone). Linux's gain has been slow and steady, as it always is, with a fairly modest 0.2% gain.

This market share site allows you to exclude specific continents or countries, but it's like a $300 subscription. Wish I could have done farther research.

The only markets that I can think of that Linux is dominating or a real contender in are the Server market and the Government market. The Government idea came from this article:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8449

I just don't see Linux dominating any desktop or workstation market, even if you exclude the USA. In order for you to claim that "Linux is the operating system of the rest of the world," it would have to dominate the market. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. Microsoft has had a stranglehold on the market forever, and it will take a while for Microsoft to finally be challenged. I think it's starting to happen, but at the current trend, it will take 20-30 years to be knocked off the #1 spot. I will concede that the current trend could become more drastic as time goes by.

For now, Microsoft's 2 desktop operating systems (XP followed by Vista) are dominating the worldwide market:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Vista-th ... 1621.shtml

There are two markets. In the PC market, Microsoft "Rocks". I love Microsoft. In the sub-PC market, however, Linux is shinning. What do I mean by sub-PC? Netbooks are a good example. The only Microsoft product that can run on their limited resources is Windows XP. This is true whether you look at Dell, Acer or Asus. How many people in South America, Africa and India actually have computers. These are the people we are baptizing. These people will not be using PC's; they will be using netbooks or other more economical devices; they will be using Linux.

Todd

P.S.: When I correspond with Church leaders in Mexico and Peru, half the time they aren't using Microsoft or Linux; they are using Blackberry.

todd wrote:These people will not be using PC's; they will be using netbooks or other more economical devices; they will be using Linux. [...] When I correspond with Church leaders in Mexico and Peru, half the time they aren't using Microsoft or Linux; they are using Blackberry.

I believe the success of netbooks is reflective of the movement away from the PC toward the browser. It seems clear to me that our success in that area of the church is going to less about embracing Linux, but about embracing whatever those people use.

RussellHltn wrote:I believe the success of netbooks is reflective of the movement away from the PC toward the browser. It seems clear to me that our success in that area of the church is going to ...[be] about embracing whatever those people use.

I must agree. The web browser truly is the future.

Todd

todd wrote:The web browser truly is the future.

But it's only useful in areas with a good communications infrastructure. I'm not so sure what the future will hold for the 3rd world as they develop. Right now, I think it's going to be more like a mobile browser than the kind we're used to. The price structure implemented will play a big role in development. I don't think the browser would ever become as popular as it has without "unlimited" high speed Internet.

i'm agree with RussellHltn, web browser are not the "Panacea" for all information needs, just for the cost of internet speed, specialy in under pour countries. But i'm belive the research and development for new, cost-effecttive and open insfraestruture of technology will be more affordable for this countries and enterprices beside buying out-of-the-box branded and closed tecnologies. The effectiveness of this idea are based in long-terms research, like india, china or brasil for example.

This need for more controlable and researchable tecnology are the base for the growing-faster of linux outside of US.

I belive the "cloud" infraestructure are the future not the web browser development, application what can search specific information and show in matter of second, maps and direcctions, metadata... cross reference, multimedia complementation of the information, that's the future.

In simple words, "whatever you want, wherever you want, whenever you want..."

I have been working on a mobile website. You can find it http://www.toddrichardson.com/test/. This route seems, to me, to be the wave of the future. Using your cell phone, you can access your cloud applications. Google and MSN both have mobile versions of their web portals and, in turn, their cloud applications.

Todd

todd wrote:I have been working on a mobile website. You can find it http://www.toddrichardson.com/test/. This route seems, to me, to be the wave of the future. Using your cell phone, you can access your cloud applications. Google and MSN both have mobile versions of their web portals and, in turn, their cloud applications.

Todd

Todd I am sorry but I have found it hard to follow your opinion about it all. You have gone from preaching Linux to suddenly believing the web browser is the answer to prayers and now the latest inspiration comes from the "cloud".

Apart from that I am not sure what the relevance of your link is? Is it suppose to do or show something?

dkjorgi wrote:Todd I am sorry but I have found it hard to follow your opinion about it all. You have gone from preaching Linux to suddenly believing the web browser is the answer to prayers and now the latest inspiration comes from the "cloud".

Apart from that I am not sure what the relevance of your link is? Is it suppose to do or show something?

Linux and either WebKit or Gecko. That is what I am talking about. It is all open source. Put it together and you have LDSOS. Palm has done it and called it Palm WebOS. If you don't like my idea, that's okay, but don't make fun of it.

Todd

todd wrote:If you don't like my idea, that's okay, but don't make fun of it.

I don't think he was making fun of it. The idea is a little confusing to me.

Are you saying that mobile devices will be the common means to access the Internet in the future? Is your site intended to be an example of a simple site that a mobile device can easily access, rather than the more complicated sites usually seen on the Internet?

If that is what you are saying, I think I understand it. If you are trying to say something else, I think I am a little confused, that's all.

todd wrote:Linux and either WebKit or Gecko. That is what I am talking about. It is all open source. Put it together and you have LDSOS. Palm has done it and called it Palm WebOS.

What is LDSOS? What is it's purpose?

First of all, I started this thread in 2007; my ideas have changed since then.

If you look at the code of http://www.toddrichardson.com/test/, it has some very important differences from standard xhtml code. Just looking at it with a standard browser, you might think it is a rather dopey site. The hard part has been to make it not look goofy when viewing it with a cell phone. There are not a lot of resources out there to tell you how to do it. The one I have relied heavily on has been http://www.ready.mobi.

LDSOS is a dream of mine. Probably will never go anywhere.

In summary, I want to work on an OS that is LDS. I need, however, to figure out how to make a good "mobile" site so that I can better serve those Church leaders who are working off of their Blackberry.

Todd

todd wrote:If you look at the code of http://www.toddrichardson.com/test/, it has some very important differences from standard xhtml code. Just looking at it with a standard browser, you might think it is a rather dopey site.

When I go to the URL you give, I get only a black band at the top of the page with the word header centered in it (header place mark?). That is followed by the word content (content place mark?) and then another black band with the word footer centered in it (footer place mark?) That is it. I can view your code but nothing other than as I described is displayed. I am using IE7.

Your are correct. It is an empty template. The code is as follows:
[INDENT]<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//WAPFORUM//DTD XHTML Mobile 1.0//EN" "http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<title>mobi</title>
<meta http-equiv='Content-Type' content='application/xhtml+xml;charset=utf-8' />
<meta http-equiv="Cache-Control" content="max-age=200" />
<style type="text/css">
.header {
margin: 0;
padding: 4px;
background: black none repeat scroll 0% 50%;
text-align: center;
color: white;
}
.footer {
margin: 0;
padding: 0px;
background: black none repeat scroll 0% 50%;
color: white;
text-align: center;
}
a {
text-decoration: none;
color: #990000;
}
a:hover {
text-decoration: none;
color: #666666;
}
.content {
margin: 0;
padding: 5px;
background: white none repeat scroll 0% 50%;
text-align: left;
color: black;
}
</style>
</head>
<body>
<div class="header">header</div>
<div class="content">content</div>
<div class="footer">footer</div>
</body>
</html>

[/INDENT]Now, compare this with almost an exact duplicate, but using standard encoding:
[INDENT]<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
<title>Todd Richardson</title>

<link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css" />
</head>

<body>
<div id="container">
<div id="topheader"> <span id="title">Todd
Richardson</span></div>
<div id="main">
Text
</div>
<div id="footer"></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>
[/INDENT]and a standard CSS file:

[INDENT]body {
margin: 0;
background-color: #f4f4f4;
padding-left: 50%;
}
a {
text-decoration: none;
color: #990000;
}
a:hover {
text-decoration: underline;
color: #666666;
}
#container {
width: 600px;
margin-left: -300px;
}
#topheader {
background-color: black;
height: 50px;
}
#title {
margin: 5px;
font-size: 24px;
color: #ffffff;
}
#main {
padding: 5px;
width: 590px;
font-size: 11pt;
text-align: left;
}
#footer {
color: #ffffff;
text-align: center;
vertical-align: middle;
background-color: black;
height: 25px;
}
[/INDENT]
One of the biggest difference is that standard web pages use iso-8859-1 whereas the "mobile" page uses utf-8. However, there are a lot of little differences.

Todd

J D Lessley wrote, "What is LDSOS? What is it's purpose?" The purpose of an "in house" operating system would be that of self reliance. This becomes more relevant as the economy takes a nose dive.

The Church is going to a “LDS Account” system. This system is largely web based with an Oracle back end. Up to now, the roll-outs of this system seem very compatible with my Linux system I have at home.

Why not form a Linux community and develop our own system?

Todd

I'll make my responses in reverse order...for some reason it will make sense that way...

todd wrote:Why not form a Linux community and develop our own system?

Very interesting and intriguing idea. But I don't understand the "why" part completely yet. I'll ask further clarifying questions below...

todd wrote:The Church is going to a “LDS Account” system. This system is largely web based with an Oracle back end. Up to now, the roll-outs of this system seem very compatible with my Linux system I have at home.

I'm not sure why you mentioned LDS Account in relation to your proposal of an in-house operating system. As I've been writing this response, I've been able to come up with a guess that perhaps you can confirm.

You mentioned the "system is largely web based," which is 100% true because it is a unified web authentication system. It's main purpose up until a few months ago was only for internal purposes within the Church's systems at Church Headquarters. It is branching out, in that members of the Church (and perhaps in the future, it appears non-members as well) can now receive one of these accounts and eventually be allowed to authenticate to all things LDS on the web via this new credential system.

You also mentioned the system has "an Oracle back end." Now I don't know where you got that info, but that's really irrelevant anyway. What's really confusing me is how the database back-end even matters for what you are proposing. Is part of your proposal to host LDS Account within your LDSOS in some way? If so, what for? I don't think the Church would allow that, as the authentication needs to remain hosted and controlled solely by the Church in order to remain secure. Now perhaps the Church could provide a web service of some kind where you could send LDS Account credentials and have them be authenticated and confirmed; I guess this would allow volunteer Community members to write software that utilized LDS Account credentials, but I'm still having a hard time envisioning what you would need that for.

EDIT: Now if this is for Church computers, then perhaps you are suggesting we could run LDS Account right in the OS, perhaps for software like MLS or even logon to the computer OS in general? A very intriguing idea indeed. But again, the credential storage needs to remain in a central, secure location at Church Headquarters, and not in a distributed fashion. So if that's the case, then what is needed is for internet access every time a logon authentication is required, and that would be dependent on a reliable broadband internet access in my opinion. This program is only beginning to roll out and probably couldn't yet be relied on for all ward computers to have such an internet connection.

todd wrote:J D Lessley wrote, "What is LDSOS? What is it's purpose?" The purpose of an "in house" operating system would be that of self reliance. This becomes more relevant as the economy takes a nose dive.

I can understand the proposal of an operating system that members of the Church can choose to use and not be "dependent" on proprietary (and paid, for that matter) operating systems. I'm not really sure what the advantage of an LDSOS is if it's based on some other Linux distribution. This is what I haven't understood from your proposal yet...what will this special operating system do that others can't do? Why not just advocate Linux in general? The only thing I can think of is to have a Linux distribution that has pre-packed in the OS some LDS-centric software. But couldn't we also just create some kind of package distributable for an existing Linux OS?

Let me just clarify one other key point (as my questions in the above paragraph may have misunderstood your original idea proposal)...from the first post in the thread, it appears you mean a Linux distribution used in Church meetinghouses for the administrative computers and the Family History Center computers, as opposed to a general purpose LDS Linux distribution to be used in the homes of members. Is this correct? If this is what you are proposing, than you are hoping that we the Community could build this customized OS on behalf of the Church for distribution to all the Church meetinghouses, right?

This would assume that the Church would first approve the project idea, and then oversee and sponsor it as well. This idea of using Linux for ward and FHC computers is certainly no stranger to these message boards. The debate has become heated at times and we Moderators had to carefully guide the discussion to remain a productive one, and not let it become a fruitless argument. I will provide you with a few links pointing to posts from a Church employee on the idea of Linux on Church computers:

Here is a link describing the current obstacles and difficulties of running the MLS software on Linux: http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.ph ... 0#post8150

And here is a link describing the management issues the Church IT department could face switching the computers to Linux (but the post is a positive one in that it appears the Church is continually keeping the Linux option open): http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.ph ... 3#post8933

And this last link asks that we keep the discussion about Linux on Church computers focused and civilized, leaving the ultimate decision to Church IT and other leadership while not criticizing them for their decision: http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?p=166#post166

Now if you hope to go off and start a Community development project to create and LDSOS for Church computers on your own without Church involvement, my personal feelings are that the venture will likely be unsuccessful. If the Church computers really are the target for this LDSOS idea, then I would think you need the support and sponsorship from the Church right from the very beginning.

Please forgive my confusion about this whole topic, but I hope you can elaborate more on your idea. Thanks.

RussellHltn wrote, “…the Church runs an Enterprise-level IT system. What percentage of enterprise-class businesses run *nix as a desktop OS? In the past the Church as left things up to local units, but with Desktop 5.5 and LANDesk, I'm seeing them moving toward enterprise-like setups.” (see http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.ph ... 0#post8150)

Russell, of course, is right. So are you. I would like LDSOS to be the desktop OS. I must be pacient.

Todd

I was recently looking at filtering software to make a linux installation more family friendly and I ran into Ubuntu CE (Christian Edition). http://ubuntuce.com/ The big feature is that it comes pre-loaded with Dans Guardian (internet filtering software), but it includes some other christian related things like random scriptures on the desktop and background images etc.

I'm new to linux, but very interested in it. I am finding more people I know curious about linux but not sure how to start. I'd love to hand them a LDSUbuntu live cd and say, "Here, have fun!"

At this point I think the most likely need for a LDSOS is for something functional but dirt simple for a "family safe" PC. Maybe even as a live CD so a parent could pop the CD in the drive, boot to it and have something safe for the kids to play with.

Most people are computer literate, but not techies. They need something to keep them safe from the all the malware out there.

RussellHltn wrote:At this point I think the most likely need for a LDSOS is for something functional but dirt simple for a "family safe" PC. Maybe even as a live CD so a parent could pop the CD in the drive, boot to it and have something safe for the kids to play with.

Most people are computer literate, but not techies. They need something to keep them safe from the all the malware out there.

A Live CD distribution would be advantageous in many ways on the malware issue for families that just want to browse the web, access web mail, etc.. One usual disadvantage of a Live CD environment is slowness caused by reading binaries and data files from the CD. A tech-support person I was talking with yesterday evening mentioned he runs a Live CD Linux that overcomes that disadvantage by loading everything from the CD into RAM and then runs from RAM. One way this could be done would be to modify the paging algorithm in the kernel. Another would be to reserve a block of RAM, copy the CD to that block of RAM, and then use that area as a RAM disk.

How practical is a "live thumb"? Some drives have write protect switches. 2GB drives are not that expensive and can be bought at Wal-Mart. Not as good as RAM, but faster than CD.

RussellHltn wrote:How practical is a "live thumb"? Some drives have write protect switches. 2GB drives are not that expensive and can be bought at Wal-Mart. Not as good as RAM, but faster than CD.

I haven't used one, but I would be pretty confident they would work well, provided the hardware and BIOS can boot from a USB device, etc. They're definitely available. For example, and just for an example, Mandriva sells some with its distribution on them. IIRC, they come set up with a user storage area in addition to the OS area. A hardware write-protect switch would be advantageous if malware were a major concern, but that would conflict with a user storage area on the same device.

There is one disadvantage of a Live CD or Live Thumb OS over an OS installed on fixed media. Security updates for browsers and some other system software happen pretty frequently. With a fixed-media installation, you just install the updated package. With Live CD, someone has to remaster the CD, and the users have to burn a new disc. With Live Thumb, the process could involve just flipping the write-protect switch to write the update (and accepting a brief period of vulnerability to malware getting in) and flipping the switch back when finished. Or, the process could be similar to that for a CD.

I hope my English is good enough to explain my point of view about LDSLinux.
We can not be sure that Linux will remain safe and secure. Now it lies under various communities. I feel that an LDS community is more trustworthy, especcialy in the future.
So, now I trust Ubuntu community and I use its distibution, but tomorrow?
World is going always worst, will be Open Source IT immune of it?

So, it looks like we are left with the following:

The Church is not going to spearhead a LDS Linux project because, simply put, it is not within its mandate (Proclaim the Gospel, Perfect the Saints, Redeem the Dead). Thus, it seems, the only way to bring such a project to fruition, is to form ones own group. How does "TheLDSLinuxProject.org" sound?

Todd

Thus, it seems, the only way to bring such a project to fruition, is to form ones own group. How does "TheLDSLinuxProject.org" sound?

Great!
Because I have to enter 10 wotds, at least, great again.

todd wrote:The Church is not going to spearhead a LDS Linux project ...
How does "TheLDSLinuxProject.org" sound?

Todd

Tood, I LOVE the thought of "LDS Linux".

I think you are right the church is unlikely to start it but if you get "TheLDSLinuxProject.org" going and you end up with something worthwhile then I would not be surprised if the church will be interested to further explore its potential. People like Tom Welsh and others are keen Linux people.

I do think this whole LDS Linux idea needs some form of summary of what it is to keep it all in focus and not fragmented.

For that reason I have now read through the threads on this subject and allow me to summarise what I (and it' just my opinion, feel free to mould it your own way) now think LDS Linux should be.

Let’s forget about mobiles, Blackberry’s and what will run on church owned PC’s because the issues surrounding them are simply too vast and instead concentrate on making LDS Linux the preferred O/S system used by LDS Families.

My thoughts (based on summary of other people’s ideas too) are that LDS Linux has:

• Its target towards LDS family PC’s (and not church PC’s so no MLS)

• A minimal Linux distribution (LIVE CD, install to HD or via WMware) with only the bare essentials (get ideas from Edubunto, Ubuntu CE (Christian Edition) etc)

• LDS themed wallpaper and screensavers.

• Firefox as web browser with lds.org as homepage and maybe predefined favourite LDS websites.

• For Office, email and calendar you can use two options: 1) Install Open Office, Thunderbird and Sunbird OR 2) Use Google Docs, Mail and Calendars in connection with Google Gears for offline usage.

• Family History program options loaded (or selective install?). 3 options: 1) PAF to run through Wine?, 2) Alternatively use Free or GRAMP, 3) Use the new Family Search through web browser.

• Web filtering solution preloaded (Dans Guardian or similar)

• Acrobat Reader, Flash and other “needed” add-on’s preloaded.

• Scripture program loaded (or desktop shortcut to scriptures on lds.org). My personal favourite was readscriptures.com's online version (based (I think) on Joe Hewitt's iUI - see here for example)

• Anything else? Maybe family finance program or storage program but not sure what is available for Linux.

• More?

Nice summery. Note that you would probably need to obtain permission to distribute PAF as part of the image.

Anything else? Maybe family finance program or storage program but not sure what is available for Linux.

Of course!
1. Family Finance: HomeBank, gnuCash
2. Storage program: mmh? I think could be a new project!

dkjorgi wrote: ...

• Acrobat Reader, Flash and other “needed” add-on’s preloaded.

...

RussellHltn wrote:Nice summery. Note that you would probably need to obtain permission to distribute PAF as part of the image.

Acrobat Reader, Adobe's Flash player are also non-OSS. It would be necessary to look into the terms under which they could be redistributed before including them. I understand there is an open-source flash player being developed, but I have not heard an announcement that it is ready for prime time.

rmrichesjr wrote:Acrobat Reader, Adobe's Flash player are also non-OSS. It would be necessary to look into the terms under which they could be redistributed before including them. I understand there is an open-source flash player being developed, but I have not heard an announcement that it is ready for prime time.

I think Adobe is open to it, you just have to jump through their hoops. The church is probably the same for PAF. At any rate, it should be looked into more deeply rather then immediately disqualify them from consideration.

I agree the non-OSS applications should be looked into. I did not intend to imply they should be dropped from consideration, just that the looking-into needs to be done.

First of all, let me start off by saying that I appreciate and commend what is attempted here. The idea of an OS aimed at LDS members is cool. But, here are some of my thoughts:

Why create another flavor of Linux? With so many versions out there, it almost seems like re-inventing the wheel for something that can be achieved another way. But, let's assume we write a new flavor with all of these LDS features. What about the many members who already have an OS they like? Will they be expected to "convert" to this new one in order to get these LDS features? Or, will these features be available to them through some other means? And, if they can be distributed without the need of a particular OS, then why create a new flavor of Linux?

I propose a simpler solution. First, allow members to use what ever OS they choose. This is agency. Then, provide standardized, LDS based software to run on the different OSes. This is the future of computing.

Now, let me explain. I know people who use Linux, Windows, and Mac and one is not about to change to another. If we create an OS that will run LDS apps and don't provide them for other OS users, then we are excluding a vast majority, just as Linux users have been excluded in the past (and even still today). This only fosters more dis-harmony and sets one above another. However, to include all and allow all to benefit, it makes more sense to assemble and/or create a set of LDS apps that are standardized and run on any platform. This could mean anything from an app compiled to each popular architecture (Linux, Windows, Mac) or an app compiled to one cross-platform architecture (Java or Mono/.Net). The advantage here really is wonderful, because instead of writing limiting, Linux specific code, we would be sharing across a much broader spectrum our desire to further the Lord's Work.

Which apps would I include in an LDS based set? I suggest a genealogy app, a Scripture study app, meeting tracking apps, progress tracking apps, etc. And remember, these must be standardized. This type of a project will not work if we promote PAF for Windows users and GRAMPS for everyone else, or something like that. The same genealogy app used on Linux must be the same one used on Windows, etc.

I also see where one goal of the LDS Linux Project is to provide an easily obtainable OS in other parts of the world. Why? Flavors of Linux have already been ported to so many hardware architectures that it's already easily obtainable anywhere in the world where there are computers. And speaking of hardware, if we make an LDS Linux, then we have to maintain its hardware compatibility over time. Considering how fast hardware changes, who wants to volunteer for that? It would be wiser to let current Linux handlers worry about this, and for us to focus on maintaining our LDS apps.

Some in here have also suggested an LDS based toolbar for Firefox or an LDS themed GUI. These do not need a new OS. Why not simply create a Firefox add-on or a GUI theme?

So I guess, from my point of view, I don't understand the need for an LDS Linux flavor. But I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to see one out there as a choice. However, I do see a need for standardized, LDS based software that is available to all. I also don't think the Church should have to maintain it. The Church should only be expected to maintain the information and databases for accuracy, while we as members should use or talents to further the Work.

Though, I would like to see an LDS based OSS project.


Michael.

meffordm wrote:I propose a simpler solution. First, allow members to use what ever OS they choose. This is agency.

The idea of LDS Linux (as I personally see it and that might differ from other people's idea) was only to create an environment (O/S) where everything LDS-related was preloaded instead of having to install it all afterwards.
As a persons life is emerged into the gospel these things become more important than many other things.
As for choosing this is exactly that, a choice, an alternative solution.

meffordm wrote:Then, provide standardized, LDS based software to run on the different OSes. This is the future of computing.

Isn't that one of the reasons why web-apps are so ideal and popular?
Are there any apps or challenges you can see where a web-app (or Wine) cannot be used?

meffordm wrote:Now, let me explain. I know people who use Linux, Windows, and Mac and one is not about to change to another.

I fully agree here. I am not about to replace my belowed Windows XP with LDS Linux either but I do see value in giving my kids or wife LDS Linux as their primary O/S and myself having it as dual-boot or as a VmWare image.
If they can crack Wine to work with all needed Windows apps then why not.

meffordm wrote:If we create an OS that will run LDS apps and don't provide them for other OS users, then we are excluding a vast majority, just as Linux users have been excluded in the past (and even still today). This only fosters more dis-harmony and sets one above another.

I assume you are just thinking about desktop apps. Wouldnt this issue disappear with the creation of writing web apps?
Or if you really want a desktop app why not use Wine for these apps?

meffordm wrote:This could mean anything from an app compiled to each popular architecture (Linux, Windows, Mac) or an app compiled to one cross-platform architecture (Java or Mono/.Net). The advantage here really is wonderful, because instead of writing limiting, Linux specific code, we would be sharing across a much broader spectrum our desire to further the Lord's Work.

Personally I think there are some huge challenges in creating cross-platform desktop apps. I use .NET and see the pain of having to take apps back from 3.5 to 1.1 so if thats an issue then compiling with Mono could also prove a bigger challenge than we realise. Thats before we think about the legal issues over Mono where I believe only Novell customers can use Mono (unless there has been a change in their deal with MS)

meffordm wrote: Which apps would I include in an LDS based set? I suggest a genealogy app, a Scripture study app, meeting tracking apps, progress tracking apps, etc. And remember, these must be standardized. This type of a project will not work if we promote PAF for Windows users and GRAMPS for everyone else, or something like that. The same genealogy app used on Linux must be the same one used on Windows, etc.

Isnt this where NewFamilySearch come in to solve that kind of problem?

As for the meeting and progress tracking app then I fully agree. A generic project/task application with sync link to calendars (maybe even through RSS) would go a long way. I see this developed to be simple enough and yet allow for the creation of template project/tasks. Ideally web-based to allow easier updates to other people's tasks'/progress. Thats the wish anyway.

meffordm wrote: I also see where one goal of the LDS Linux Project is to provide an easily obtainable OS in other parts of the world. Why? Flavors of Linux have already been ported to so many hardware architectures that it's already easily obtainable anywhere in the world where there are computers.

I didnt see that point either about the rest of the world etc which is why I saw LDS Linux simply being a flavour based on an existing Linux distro so "all" we create is an LDS environment with every needful thing preloaded.

meffordm wrote: Some in here have also suggested an LDS based toolbar for Firefox or an LDS themed GUI. These do not need a new OS. Why not simply create a Firefox add-on or a GUI theme?

The add-on has already been created but whole point here is to just gather "every needful thing".

meffordm wrote: So I guess, from my point of view, I don't understand the need for an LDS Linux flavor. But I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to see one out there as a choice.

I am sure we can survive without it but in these days of dual-boot and virtualisation being much easier I see a gap worth exploring for those who really believe in this.
The whole point is exactly that "having a choice".

The reason why I like it (in the format I tried to describe it) is that it will be an LDS enviroment on your PC with "every needful thing" preloaded. People like myself and others probably already have most of the things but there are still many LDS people out there probably without it all.
To name one example, I wonder how many people already have a web-filter (such as K9 and others) installed on their router or their PC. I suspect they dont for one simple reason: "They dont know it exists" and yet they could benefit greatful from having one.

meffordm wrote:However, I do see a need for standardized, LDS based software that is available to all.

Since the LDS related software I am thinking about will be a mix of church, member and non-member developed software that is why I think this collection (LDS Linux) could work.

meffordm wrote:I also don't think the Church should have to maintain it. The Church should only be expected to maintain the information and databases for accuracy, while we as members should use or talents to further the Work.

Thats the ideal I would like to see too. The NewFamilySearch API, LDSAccount, even a Scripture API etc are all steps in the right direction but I assume there will also be a limit to how much details the church is willing to expose through API's to third-party applications.

What I like about this whole discussion is that Todd started it with a basic idea and through input and discussions with others I see the original idea now having changed somewhat. Many seem to have been inspired by other people's comments and ideas and then added their own extra work to it and this is the way things evolve.

I think it is worth quoting Tom for what he wrote a while back:

tomw wrote:As far as an LDSOS distro goes, I think it would be a great community project for families. Eventually the Church could take a look at it but I think it would be best to build one for families. Gramps is a good alternative to PAF, OpenOffice for MS Office, Firefox -> IE, etc. Build it with a squid proxy filter in to help with internet filtering and you could make a cool homework computer.

Now I guess its just up to Todd (or anyone else I guess) to see if they agree with all these suggestions and then come out with the scope, work needed, resource etc...

In my point of view LDS Linux must be a "secure OS" or "an OS you can rely on".
I think that WofW speak of food but its principles apply also to other fields.
I ask nyself: Will be IT safe forever?
Ms, Mc are manages by good mans (I hope), can Church assure that this will be now along? Same said to Mc.
Even Linux can be changed. It's more difficult because it's mantained by a community and, we hope, there will be at least one good man among manies to inform us if something is going bad.
LDS Linux could be a warranty that good man are work in, now forever!

If I may, I'd like to chime in with my excitement that such a project is being considered by this community (almost as excited as I was when our "new" computers came into the genealogy library with OpenOffice on them). I miss Linux dearly, and think that this kind of distribution might even convert my family - especially if we can set it up "out of the box" with the kind of applications dkjorgi outlined.

Perhaps if a packaged distro doesn't become a viable option though, something akin to Michael's suggestion could be a nice alternative and TheLDSLinuxProject.org could become a site for information and articles on high-quality applications and how to set them up in Linux. An index based on distro and app would be a great place to go rather than hunting all over the internet and getting advice you may not want to trust.

I vote yea! And you can sign me up for testing ... my laptop sits ready at your disposal.

- Stephen

scjayounger wrote:I miss Linux dearly, and think that this kind of distribution might even convert my family - especially if we can set it up "out of the box" with the kind of applications dkjorgi outlined.

Perhaps if a packaged distro doesn't become a viable option though, something akin to Michael's suggestion could be a nice alternative and TheLDSLinuxProject.org could become a site for information and articles on high-quality applications and how to set them up in Linux. An index based on distro and app would be a great place to go rather than hunting all over the internet and getting advice you may not want to trust.

Yes good point. It can be either or both.

I guess we are now just waiting to see what direction Todd (who started all this) will take on this (hint hint Todd).

If he doesnt for whatever reason then anyone else can proactively spearheaded it all (gather people, write up purpose/aim, tasks, who to do what etc) but lets give Tood a change to respond first.

It would be so awesome to have an LDSlinux distro. Hey, I'd even be able to get my Grandparents to go for that. I've almost convinced them to go for linux but i don't want them to have to mess with an emulator for paf. I'm not a geek, just a geek wannabe.
Wouldn't it also save some money that would've been spent on Windows software?

bobtheubuntuuser wrote:It would be so awesome to have an LDSlinux distro. Hey, I'd even be able to get my Grandparents to go for that. I've almost convinced them to go for linux but i don't want them to have to mess with an emulator for paf. I'm not a geek, just a geek wannabe.
Wouldn't it also save some money that would've been spent on Windows software?

New genealogy applications based on the New FamilySearch API will largely replace PAF. I would hope at least a couple of them would be written in a system-independent manner and would be released for other OSes. In the mean time, PAF works quite well in Wine. At the risk of posting the URL too many times, here's the AppDB page with how-to info on using PAF with Wine:

http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=1706

Maybe around here there is also some graphical expert. The logo of LDSLinux could be a pinguin with an LDS reference (trumphet, JS dress, ecc.).

I have been working on compiling the kernel. At first I was following the instructions on http://www.slitaz.org/en/doc/scratchbook/, but they didn't work. I am going to try BuildRoot (http://buildroot.uclibc.org/), and if that doesn't work, Scratchbox (http://www.scratchbox.org/).

Todd

todd wrote:I have been working on compiling the kernel. At first I was following the instructions on http://www.slitaz.org/en/doc/scratchbook/, but they didn't work. I am going to try BuildRoot (http://buildroot.uclibc.org/), and if that doesn't work, Scratchbox (http://www.scratchbox.org/).

Todd

I'm puzzled. I thought there was general agreement to base LDS Linux on an existing distribution. Otherwise, the maintenance burden will be far too large. Also, some users will need additional packages (music notation editor, for one) not in the set of packages in LDS Linux itself. Basing on an existing distribution will allow those users to import packages from the existing distribution.

Those URLs appeared to me to be more about cross-compilation than just compiling the kernel. It has been several years since I last compiled a kernel, but my notes indicate it was pretty simple:

make distclean (or make clean, or make mrproper, or ...)
make config (or make menuconfig, or make xconfig, or ...)
make dep
make modules
make modules_install
make boot

Other sequences for X86 are

make config (or ...)
make dep
make modules
make bzImage

Some people recommend 'make boot' or 'make bzImage' before 'make modules'.

rmrichesjr wrote:I'm puzzled. I thought there was general agreement to base LDS Linux on an existing distribution. Otherwise, the maintenance burden will be far too large. Also, some users will need additional packages (music notation editor, for one) not in the set of packages in LDS Linux itself. Basing on an existing distribution will allow those users to import packages from the existing distribution.

Todd, I have to agree with rmrichesjr here. What are the benefits you see in compiling the kernel rather than using an existing distro with the added application needed by LDS families?

marianomarini_vi wrote:

In my point of view LDS Linux must be a "secure OS" or "an OS you can rely on".
I think that WofW speak of food but its principles apply also to other fields.
I ask nyself: Will be IT safe forever?
Ms, Mc are manages by good mans (I hope), can Church assure that this will be now along? Same said to Mc.
Even Linux can be changed. It's more difficult because it's mantained by a community and, we hope, there will be at least one good man among manies to inform us if something is going bad.
LDS Linux could be a warranty that good man are work in, now forever!

I was kind of working off what "marianomarini_vi" wrote. However, if a remaster is preferred, I would have to choose Ubuntu.

In regards to the cosmetics of the re-master, I think use of the shade of teal that the Church uses on most of it's websites would help identify the re-master as Church related. I was playing around with a simple background. I made it black with a mind to change it to the Church's teal when I can figure out the RGB code. http://www.toddrichardson.com/ldsl/wallpaper.bmp

Todd

Here's what I have to say. Base this distro off ubuntu, add plenty of LDS software. Change the theme a bit (don't we all love brown?). Make sure it works with Wubi so people can dual-boot without messing with disk partitions.

Now, a software repository with LDS software for Ubuntu (and any other distro somebody wants to maintain) would be a good idea for those already using ubuntu

todd wrote:marianomarini_vi wrote:
I was kind of working off what "marianomarini_vi" wrote. However, if a remaster is preferred, I would have to choose Ubuntu.

In regards to the cosmetics of the re-master, I think use of the shade of teal that the Church uses on most of it's websites would help identify the re-master as Church related. I was playing around with a simple background. I made it black with a mind to change it to the Church's teal when I can figure out the RGB code. http://www.toddrichardson.com/ldsl/wallpaper.bmp

Todd

Todd,

Ok now your thinking about a remaster of Ubuntu then how about getting a list of the changes needed together so you can get people "on board" and they can see where all this is going?

Then after that wallpaper etc can be sorted.

"dkjorgi" wrote:

Ok now your thinking about a remaster of Ubuntu then how about getting a list of the changes needed together so you can get people "on board" and they can see where all this is going?

Then after that wallpaper etc can be sorted.

Good point.

I am hesitant to say this but, I was on the GNU website over the weekend. I was looking at the binary blob free distributions. gNewSense has a fairly simple remaster script. It is based on Debian/Ubuntu. What are your thoughts? Would it be something that would be considered by the community, or shall we just stick with Ubuntu.

Todd

todd wrote:It is based on Debian/Ubuntu. What are your thoughts?

The last time I attempted an Ubuntu download it was a DVD ISO around 5 GB in size. In Australia, where broadband internet has not been invented yet, this would take me several days to download if the line would stay connected.

Hence my preference for Slackware (1 CD for a fully functioning system). As a long time power user of Unix, the last time I used Ubuntu, I had to break into the system to enable the root account as it was disabled.

So onto packaging, could the distro be broken up into a live CD and then additional packages downloaded later after an instal?

downunder wrote:The last time I attempted an Ubuntu download it was a DVD ISO around 5 GB in size. In Australia, where broadband internet has not been invented yet, this would take me several days to download if the line would stay connected.

Hence my preference for Slackware (1 CD for a fully functioning system). As a long time power user of Unix, the last time I used Ubuntu, I had to break into the system to enable the root account as it was disabled.

So onto packaging, could the distro be broken up into a live CD and then additional packages downloaded later after an instal?

The latest ubuntu is only 700 MB

ps I found a work around for the root account being disabled

1. When the KDE login pops up do a console login in then log in as root in command line. Its disabled for a reason (root + NOOB = danger)



Todd count me in for testing.


pc.. By definition I am a noob also, but the more I play around with the system the more comfortable I get.

I just finished an ubuntu server running web, samba, FTP and mail "I am stoked" I'm still fine tuning the Mail server-- seems not to like my dynamic dns hosting.

downunder wrote:...
So onto packaging, could the distro be broken up into a live CD and then additional packages downloaded later after an instal?

Part of the remastering process is deciding which packages to have on the installation media and which to download later--or so I have gathered.

Todd,

This thread has certainly had many viewings and many comments and it has all been about technology related to our church lives which is exactly what we want to promote.

So it shows that the subject is one many people are interested in and therefore I think your initial question (about if other people are interested in "LDS Linux") has been well answered.

So don't you think the next step should be for you to take it forward and create a space on the net where all the details etc can be discussed and decided and taken forward?
I am sure we would all redirect any further interest to your site..

The subject and all the issues surrounding it are certainly far greater than what a single thread in this forum can support.

dkjorgi:

I am working on getting a forum set up on my web server.

Everyone:

I have found very specific instructions on how to customize Ubuntu at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization.

Todd

todd wrote:dkjorgi:

I am working on getting a forum set up on my web server.

Everyone:

I have found very specific instructions on how to customize Ubuntu at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization.

Todd

Brilliant Todd, let us know when your forum is setup.

For further conversation on the LDS Linux topic goto:

http://www.toddrichardson.com/ldsl/
(the link is no longer working)