primary kids pictures on ward website...Safe?

As ward clerk, I was showing the Primary President (my wife) the new beta directory, and told her we now can take pictures of all the kids individually and add them to the directory so the bishop could see and get to know them.

She said it wasn't safe and we shouldn't do it. Her explanations are that a child predator tries to find any info about kids, such as a name, a parents name, siblings, or addresses, and will use that to convince a child they are a "friend" and not a stranger. Having a photo next to their name in the ward directory would give a potential dangerous person the ability to recognize a child, their address, siblings, etc.

I explained that these directories are only available to ward members who have made an LDS account. Her response: "You are ward clerk. Do you know every name on our ward list, even those who don't come? How can you be sure a dangerous person we don't know about won't access our ward directory?"

I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

kisaac wrote:As ward clerk, I was showing the Primary President (my wife) the new beta directory, and told her we now can take pictures of all the kids individually and add them to the directory so the bishop could see and get to know them.

She said it wasn't safe and we shouldn't do it. Her explanations are that a child predator tries to find any info about kids, such as a name, a parents name, siblings, or addresses, and will use that to convince a child they are a "friend" and not a stranger. Having a photo next to their name in the ward directory would give a potential dangerous person the ability to recognize a child, their address, siblings, etc.

I explained that these directories are only available to ward members who have made an LDS account. Her response: "You are ward clerk. Do you know every name on our ward list, even those who don't come? How can you be sure a dangerous person we don't know about won't access our ward directory?"

I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

I would leave this decision up to the parents. If they don't mind a photo posted of their family (incl children), then proceed. The final decision should be up to the parents to decide.

kisaac wrote:I explained that these directories are only available to ward members who have made an LDS account.

Actually, the directories are available to anyone in the stake who has an LDS Account.

But personally, I trust that the Church would not release such directories with this security unless they felt it was safe. The Church is very concerned with the safety and privacy of its members, and particularly the children.

That said, any family can make its own decisions, and the stake president or bishop can make decisions at the stake or ward level regarding the local policy on the inclusion of pictures.

kisaac wrote:I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

Yes. Listen to your wife. [grin]

Then you and she share your concerns with the bishop in private (or even in ward council), follow the counsel and listen to the Spirit.

Your bishop may suggest that photos be limited to adults and not youth and children. He may suggest that photos are ok for all, but that the parents should carefully decide if they wish to post them.

Ultimately, it is up to the parents. And I think your wife has a valid point, although I also believe the Church feels the site is adequately secure.

I am not familiar enough with the beta site to know what restrictions or suggestions are made there, especially concerning youth and children.

I assume that members still may opt out of the Local Unit Web Site completely.

The policy I've recommended to my ward is that we post a family picture, and a picture of the adults. We will only post pictures of youth or children upon the family's request. We do the same for individual phone numbers and e-mails for this age group.

One reason I recommended this policy was because I know that I wouldn't want my daughter's picture on the website, and I figure that it would be less hassle tracking those who want their children's information on the directory than those who do not.

Another argument I've made is that children change rapidly, and I don't want to have to deal with uploading new pictures for that many people on a regular basis. I'll have my hands full enough doing just the adults.

All good arguments. I think one argument for posting is to help the primary teachers learn their student's names. However, It doesn't have to be the website.

kisaac wrote:I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

I share your wife's concern, she is wise.

kisaac wrote:As ward clerk, I was showing the Primary President (my wife) the new beta directory, and told her we now can take pictures of all the kids individually and add them to the directory so the bishop could see and get to know them.

She said it wasn't safe and we shouldn't do it. Her explanations are that a child predator tries to find any info about kids, such as a name, a parents name, siblings, or addresses, and will use that to convince a child they are a "friend" and not a stranger. Having a photo next to their name in the ward directory would give a potential dangerous person the ability to recognize a child, their address, siblings, etc.

I explained that these directories are only available to ward members who have made an LDS account. Her response: "You are ward clerk. Do you know every name on our ward list, even those who don't come? How can you be sure a dangerous person we don't know about won't access our ward directory?"

I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

RussellHltn wrote:I think one argument for posting is to help the primary teachers learn their student's names. However, It doesn't have to be the website.

The new site has been designed to present personalized content and resources based on the calling held by the LDS Account holder. If the ability of ward and stake members to view photos of children and perhaps also youth, could be restricted to those with specific callings, the valid concerns over safety and privacy could be addressed, while at the same time, designated leaders and teachers would be able to benefit from this resource.

danpass wrote:If the ability of ward and stake members to view photos of children and perhaps also youth, could be restricted to those with specific callings...

That's a really good point, worth considering in my opinion.

mkmurray wrote:That's a really good point, worth considering in my opinion.

If done, I'd like to see it implemented as a local option. Parents interact with their children's playmates. They may want to raise a concern with someone and need to match a name to a face.

However, I think limiting stake-wide access for those without primary/youth callings would be a good thing. Most people have a grasp on who is in the ward. They have no clue who is in the stake.

RussellHltn wrote:If done, I'd like to see it implemented as a local option. Parents interact with their children's playmates. They may want to raise a concern with someone and need to match a name to a face.

However, I think limiting stake-wide access for those without primary/youth callings would be a good thing. Most people have a grasp on who is in the ward. They have no clue who is in the stake.

If I read the source code right, it looks like you can only see the names of children in your own ward regardless of calling. However, I don't see anything that would prevent the family photo from showing to everyone in the stake.

Looking at my stake data in the beta, that seems to be how it's working (but I can't tell about the photos since I can't find anyone who has uploaded any photos).

eblood66 wrote:If I read the source code right, it looks like you can only see the names of children in your own ward regardless of calling. However, I don't see anything that would prevent the family photo from showing to everyone in the stake.

Looking at my stake data in the beta, that seems to be how it's working (but I can't tell about the photos since I can't find anyone who has uploaded any photos).

Thanks for checking that out. That's what I'm seeing, too, when I observe what regular members can see. Since I'm an assistant stake clerk, I can see all the members of each family in the stake. But my wife can only see the children in our ward; for all other wards, she can only see members who are at least 18 years old.

As for photos, I'm in the same situation as you -- there are no photos at all in our stake, so I can't see any actual photos. But in every case where I can see an individual, I see the placeholder image, so I'm confident that once an image gets uploaded, I would see the image.

In any case, this should lessen some concerns about how broadly pictures of non-adults can be seen. Of course, the parents certainly have final say about what information is shown for their children. But it's nice to know that names (and of course pictures) of children are visible only within the ward, or to stake leaders.

Thanks to all for the feedback and ideas, and I think we will err on the side of cautiousness. We will avoid the single youth pictures altogether. Having the parents permission wouldn't make anyone feel better if something happened.

We will ponder with the bishopric further on including family pictures.

I have a somewhat related question. Is it possible to have the head of household be abe to manage the profiles of his entire family. Each of my kids have email and cell phones but none have their own lds.org account. Wouldn't it make sense for me to be able to change this information for my entire family?

jrennaker wrote:I have a somewhat related question. Is it possible to have the head of household be abe to manage the profiles of his entire family. Each of my kids have email and cell phones but none have their own lds.org account. Wouldn't it make sense for me to be able to change this information for my entire family?

It looks like you can. I can't test for me as the head of household, because of my calling as ward clerk I get edit rights to everyone. But I tested it with my spouse and she has edit rights to the entire family.

jrennaker wrote:I have a somewhat related question. Is it possible to have the head of household be abe to manage the profiles of his entire family. Each of my kids have email and cell phones but none have their own lds.org account. Wouldn't it make sense for me to be able to change this information for my entire family?

That is what I am currently experiencing in the new directory. I can edit the household information (cell phone, e-mail address, picture), my information, and my wife's information. We have no children living at home to check that part. But I am sure you can do that also.

jrennaker-p40 wrote:I have a somewhat related question. Is it possible to have the head of household be abe to manage the profiles of his entire family. Each of my kids have email and cell phones but none have their own lds.org account. Wouldn't it make sense for me to be able to change this information for my entire family?

Head of House and spouse should have rights to manage settings for the whole family. This includes adding or editing email, phone numers and photos.

kisaac wrote:As ward clerk, I was showing the Primary President (my wife) the new beta directory, and told her we now can take pictures of all the kids individually and add them to the directory so the bishop could see and get to know them.

She said it wasn't safe and we shouldn't do it. Her explanations are that a child predator tries to find any info about kids, such as a name, a parents name, siblings, or addresses, and will use that to convince a child they are a "friend" and not a stranger. Having a photo next to their name in the ward directory would give a potential dangerous person the ability to recognize a child, their address, siblings, etc.

I explained that these directories are only available to ward members who have made an LDS account. Her response: "You are ward clerk. Do you know every name on our ward list, even those who don't come? How can you be sure a dangerous person we don't know about won't access our ward directory?"

I don't have the answer to that one...Any thoughts?

As a Stake/Ward Clerk or Executive Secretary with website administration rights YOU are responsible and have the abillity to screen all users for the safety of the unit. First, only people with access to their membership number have the ability to create an LDS account. That means they most likely will be an active member who either has a recommend or has been given a copy of their IOS (Individual Odinance Summary). Either way the Bishopric should be familiar with the person(s) or family. The second line of defense is the user access page. In the administration area of the classic ward/stake website there is a list of all members of the unit with a user account and the ability to grant or deny access to their LDS account.

It is very important that the Bishopric be familiar with all people on this list! YOU are responsible for keeping preditors off the website!!! If the Bishop or Ward council has a concern about someone you should restrict their access.

Remember, these are our Ward Families and we have the responsibillity to get to know our family better. If you don't know someone don't assume someone else does, find out about them and get to know them better.

Hopefully as the classic websites are phased out these abillities will be fully integrated with the new site. If you don't like or feel comfortable with how something is setup leave feedback, the website builders are doing their best to make everything as it should be but need to know if everything is working properly and if there is something that has been overlooked or "malfunctioning".

This thread is focused on the new directory. As such I will direct my comments in that area.

thomasnbuchanan wrote:As a Stake/Ward Clerk or Executive Secretary with website administration rights YOU are responsible and have the abillity to screen all users for the safety of the unit.

Currently there is no capability to screen users for the new directory. We have not heard of any ability planned in that direction - there may be, but we have not had any indication that it is. Granted the classic LUWS has the ability to disable a user profile. But that does not affect the new directory or calendar. Any member can get an LDS Account.

thomasnbuchanan wrote:First, only people with access to their membership number have the ability to create an LDS account. That means they most likely will be an active member who either has a recommend or has been given a copy of their IOS (Individual Odinance Summary).

Any member, inactive or active, can get their membership number to create an LDS Account. I know of now provision for a member to erase it from their memory or to destroy a personal copy of an IOS they may have. To give the impression that a clerk or bishoric member can control the creation of an LDS Account for the purpose of denying access to the unit directory by not providing an IOS is a bit farfetched and contrary to Church policy.

thomasnbuchanan wrote:The second line of defense is the user access page. In the administration area of the classic ward/stake website there is a list of all members of the unit with a user account and the ability to grant or deny access to their LDS account.

Do not confuse disabling a user account at the classic LUWS with the ability to disable the LDS Account. Website administrators have no ability to disable a user's LDS Account. They do not have access to anybody's LDS Account except their own. The new directory's access is granted through a user's LDS Account and the LDS Account is not controlled in any manner by a website administrator.

thomasnbuchanan wrote:Hopefully as the classic websites are phased out these abillities will be fully integrated with the new site.

Currently the access control is through the LDS Account and there is no current provision to control which member LDS Accounts have access or which ones do not. Based on the current access methodolgy to the new directory I see no carryover of the ability to disable user accounts for the new LUWS. I may be proven wrong once the new site is fully implememented.

Our stake Primary president has pointed out that she used to be able to view information about children in other wards in the stake but now can only view children in her ward. Is this operating as designed? Should she be given access to MLS on the stake computer so that she can gather reports concerning those who are turning 8?

bkwerner59 wrote:Our stake Primary president has pointed out that she used to be able to view information about children in other wards in the stake but now can only view children in her ward. Is this operating as designed?

[Yes, that is working as designed. Aside from stake priesthood leaders, members can only see information about children in their own ward.]

EDIT: See the next post for correction of this point.

bkwerner59 wrote:Should she be given access to MLS on the stake computer so that she can gather reports concerning those who are turning 8?

I really doubt that there is any need to give a stake Primary president access to stake MLS, although the stake president could authorize that if he felt it was important. It seems far easier for the stake clerk to occasionally give her a report (on paper or in a spreadsheet) generated from MLS. That could be done 2-4 times a year and would eliminate the need for her to get physical access to the computer, learn how to operate MLS, etc.

aebrown wrote:Yes, that is working as designed. Aside from stake priesthood leaders, members can only see information about children in their own ward.

According to the help file, "a member of the stake primary presidency will see children in all wards and branches in the stake. "

I think someone should verify the calling has been entered into the stake MLS as a standard position and not a custom calling.

RussellHltn wrote:According to the help file, "a member of the stake primary presidency will see children in all wards and branches in the stake. "

Thanks for clarifying that -- I had clearly not paid enough attention to that detail on the visibility of child information.

One thing I havent seen posted yet is that people can delist themselves from the directory as well. If they care, they can remove household members like their kids from the directory themselves. How about some personal responsibility eh?

mahgig wrote:One thing I havent seen posted yet is that people can delist themselves from the directory as well.

This is not entirely correct. Adult household members can check or uncheck three items (photo, phone, & e-mail) for the household and for each household member to be displayed in the ward directory. This does not delete them but rather does not display the information to the general membership. Certain ward leaders can view that information even though the options have been set to not "Show in ward directory".

We have to understand there is sharing and transfer of data between MLS and LDS.org and from LDS.org to MLS. If the data for phone and e-mail is in MLS it will be displayed in the profile in the directory. Deleting it from the directory profile will delete it from MLS. To have the phone and/or e-mail in MLS, yet not display it on the directory, requires the option "Show in ward directory" to be unchecked. The only data not shared and updated between MLS and LDS.org are the photos. MLS has no provision for photos.

mahgig wrote:If they care, they can remove household members like their kids from the directory themselves. How about some personal responsibility eh?

That is the position my bishop has taken. If the responsible adults of the household add pictures, phone numbers, or e-mail addresses to the profile and select "Show in ward directory" then they are exercising their agency and have made the decision.

The original post talked about adding in the pictures of primary children. I think this is safe to do to allow certain leaders, such as the bishop, to view those pictures. The parents/guardians can do this yet uncheck "Show in ward directory" to hide it from the ward general membership.

There is another option in the household profile that extends the viewing of the checked information to stake leaders. That option is:

Allow authenticated members of my stake [district] to see my household information in the online directory as configured on this page. Unchecking this box will override the individual visibility settings below.

However the last sentence of that option is a bit confusing so I don't know what really happens when that option is unchecked. Does the entire household information appear on the ward directory? Or are the options locked as made and now the information is not available to authenticated members of the stake? I know the bishop and other administrators can view the individual household profiles regardless of whether this option is checked or not. What it does to the directory display when it is unchecked is uncertain to me.

jdlessley wrote:However the last sentence of that option is a bit confusing so I don't know what really happens when that option is unchecked. Does the entire household information appear on the ward directory? Or are the options locked as made and now the information is not available to authenticated members of the stake? I know the bishop and other administrators can view the individual household profiles regardless of whether this option is checked or not. What it does to the directory display when it is unchecked is uncertain to me.

If the "Allow authenticated members..." option (also called the opt-in/opt-out option) is unchecked, then no regular members of the stake will see the household at all in the household list or the printed directory. But leaders (bishopric, stake presidency, clerks, and executive secretaries) can always see the information for all households, even those who have opted out.

The last sentence ("Unchecking this box will override the individual visibility settings below") makes sense in the context of regular members -- if that box is unchecked, then all household information will be hidden, regardless of whether any individual data items are selected to "show in ward directory". In the context of leaders, that box is irrelevant, since leaders can see all data for all households, regardless of the opt-in setting or the individual "show in ward directory" settings.