DVD Recorders in the A/V room

I've been requested by the Stake Presidency to investigate the usage of DVD recorders to record satellite transmissions within the A/V closet/room.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with units for this? Would a hybrid DVD/VCR combination be more beneficial?

If you have been using DVD recorders or combination units, what brand and model have you used? When I contacted the local FM group I was told these are not available through them.

Any ideas/comments are welcome on this!

When I was in a stake in Melbourne, Australia, we were using these. It worked great. I can't be much help as I don't remember what model or such. I do know that it didn't include VHS. I don't really know why we would need to these days.

I've got one and use it to get things off BYUTV that the Church broadcasts that are not distributed afterwards on DVD, such as the recent General Young Womens Meeting.

There are some DVD/VCR models. Most of those run under $150 US. Many for less if they do not include the VCR. But as it is, VCRs are on their way out, as many major stores are over the next little while or already are not carrying blank tape anymore. You can still find blank tape but it will get harder to do so.

There has been some talk about getting one of the DVD Recorder/VCR combo units just to save the existing stock of VHS tapes we have in our library.

I think I'll see what I can find online. I still ask for comments on units!

Thanks!
Skip

avskip wrote:I've been requested by the Stake Presidency to investigate the usage of DVD recorders to record satellite transmissions within the A/V closet/room.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with units for this? Would a hybrid DVD/VCR combination be more beneficial?

If you have been using DVD recorders or combination units, what brand and model have you used? When I contacted the local FM group I was told these are not available through them.

Any ideas/comments are welcome on this!

This is allowed and has been implemented. My old stake still records 2 VHS tapes for back-up purposes but the DVD recorder is great since you can ususally make the 5 copies in about 30-60 mins (depending on how much you are burning). As for a VHS/DVD combo my old stake just left the old VHS's and bought DVD only machines. If you notice the church is only perducing DVDs now though you might still find some videos, so a DVD/VHS combo wouldn't be beneficial in my mind.

A DVD/VHS combo would be a good choice for a playback machine, but I don't see the point for a recording one.

Personally I'd like to get one with the built-in hard drive. Record to HDD, and hopefully be able to edit exact start and end so that it's nice and tight and then burn as many as you need from the drive. I know, I have expensive tastes.

RussellHltn wrote:A DVD/VHS combo would be a good choice for a playback machine, but I don't see the point for a recording one.

Personally I'd like to get one with the built-in hard drive. Record to HDD, and hopefully be able to edit exact start and end so that it's nice and tight and then burn as many as you need from the drive. I know, I have expensive tastes.

Yes the DVD Recorder with an internal hard drive is the one my old stake had, and it is the one I recommend. (Not THAT expensive and you'll be cutting down on you VHS and DVD purchases too)

thedqs wrote:This is allowed and has been implemented. My old stake still records 2 VHS tapes for back-up purposes but the DVD recorder is great since you can ususally make the 5 copies in about 30-60 mins (depending on how much you are burning). As for a VHS/DVD combo my old stake just left the old VHS's and bought DVD only machines. If you notice the church is only perducing DVDs now though you might still find some videos, so a DVD/VHS combo wouldn't be beneficial in my mind.

What record time do you use for recordings? I'm thinking 2 hour format would be best as it would give the best picture.

We have a LOT of VHS machines, but only one DVD player in the Stake building. I wonder if the VHS/DVD combo would record a better picture going VHS to DVD?

thedqs wrote:Yes the DVD Recorder with an internal hard drive is the one my old stake had, and it is the one I recommend. (Not THAT expensive and you'll be cutting down on you VHS and DVD purchases too)

Now THAT would be NICE! I like the idea of a hard drive!! What model recorder did your old Stake have?

When my role as stake computer clerk was expanded to that of stake technology specialist, adding satellite and A/V to my responsibilities, one of the first things that I did was to get stake authorization to buy a DVR - DVD recorder combo unit. I installed it in the video cabinet, replacing one of the 2 VCR's that were being used up to that point. This has worked out wonderfully for out stake!

It is a much better solution than a standalone DVD recorder or VCR. Both of these require frequent attention in order to get blank media loaded, between General Conference sessions, for instance. When recording straight to DVD, you also run the risk of getting media errors and ending up with a coaster rather than the intended recording.

The particular unit we got is made by Panasonic and has a 60 GB hard drive which gives us 10 to 60 hours of recording time, depending on the selected recording quality. I use the 2 GB per hour setting which gives me a 30 hour storage capacity. This is the highest quality setting that I can use that will allow a recording of a conference session to fit on a single layer DVD.

I can do basic editing directly on the unit. It has a high speed DVR to DVD copy function that copies a 2 hour recording in less than 10 minutes. What I like most about it is having the ability to schedule recordings in advance and not have to worry about feeding it blank media constantly.

I believe we paid about $250 for the DVR and we bought it about 18 months ago.

Alternatively, you could go with a PC based DVR. I haven't explored this option myself, but there are open source DVR applications available for Linux, Windows and MacOS.

avskip wrote:What record time do you use for recordings? I'm thinking 2 hour format would be best as it would give the best picture.

We have a LOT of VHS machines, but only one DVD player in the Stake building. I wonder if the VHS/DVD combo would record a better picture going VHS to DVD?

It was all the 2 hour format for best compatability and since we recorded everything in VHS on the 2 hour format too.

The stake in preperation with all the new DVD videos the church produces was switching all the buildings over to DVD before we got the recorder, but they were on seperate budgets too so that buying a DVD recorder did not interfere with the stake buying the DVD players.

(As for your other question I'll get back to you once I talk with the stake tech specilist (my dad))

danpass wrote:Alternatively, you could go with a PC based DVR. I haven't explored this option myself, but there are open source DVR applications available for Linux, Windows and MacOS.

My old stake looked into that option of buying a card for the stake computer (they are in the same room) but realized that it would be too much of a hassle over the DVR. The only downside is the formation of the menus. Those provided by the DVR is not that good looking as those you could create on a computer.

In recording from satellite to DVD, one of the things that would be nice from a quailty point of view would be to record the digital bitstream to avoid repeated conversions between the digital and analog domains and also maybe avoid at least part of the compounding of compression artifacts of the satellite's MPEG 2 scheme and the DVD scheme.

Recent Church satellite programming is reported by the receiver as a 4.7Mb/s speed and a 3/4 FEC ratio. If the 4.7Mb/s is the endpoint data rate without the FEC overhead, that works out to 2.1GB/hr. If the 4.7Mb/s includes the FEC overhead, the real data stream after applying FEC would be 1.6GB/hr. (Assumes 10-based versions of 'M' and 'G'.)

The newer Wegener (Unity 500, if I remember correctly) receivers have an option for an RJ45 ethernet connector to which the digital video stream could be sent. One of my idealistic dreams is that the path for recording Church satellite programs to DVD could be done entirely in the digital domain (no analog conversions) and with at least as much as can be done in terms of directly bridging between the MPEG 2 satellite channel and the compression scheme on the DVD. With the conventional path of fully decompressing from the MPEG 2 satellite channel and then compressing the image again from scratch for the DVD, the compression artifacts compound.

Yes I can see that, though you don't really notice it at all on any of the DVDs that were made through that process though. Unfortunately I remember that the decoders provided by the church (with the church's decryption algorithms) only have S-Video or Composite outputs.

danpass wrote:The particular unit we got is made by Panasonic and has a 60 GB hard drive which gives us 10 to 60 hours of recording time, depending on the selected recording quality. I use the 2 GB per hour setting which gives me a 30 hour storage capacity. This is the highest quality setting that I can use that will allow a recording of a conference session to fit on a single layer DVD.

I can do basic editing directly on the unit. It has a high speed DVR to DVD copy function that copies a 2 hour recording in less than 10 minutes. What I like most about it is having the ability to schedule recordings in advance and not have to worry about feeding it blank media constantly.

I believe we paid about $250 for the DVR and we bought it about 18 months ago.

Do you know what model Panasonic that is? The closest equivalent I see on their site has an 80GB drive and shows pricing of $499.95!! What do they call their editing function? This sounds like what we need!

Thanks,
Skip

avskip wrote:Do you know what model Panasonic that is? The closest equivalent I see on their site has an 80GB drive and shows pricing of $499.95!! What do they call their editing function? This sounds like what we need!

Thanks,
Skip

As it turns out, I was mistaken on the brand. The unit we have is a Pioneer DVR-533H. It is listed on their web site in their "older models" section. The only DVR that they list in their current products is the DVR-640H.

I did get a really good price on our 533H, because it was a display/floor model and they no longer had the box it came in. However, they had not even plugged it in yet and was in new condition.

If you look at online discussions about Pioneer DVR's, you'll see a lot of discussion about the TV Guide download feature not working properly. We're not affected by this problem since we can't use it and don't need it. We just manually program the dates and times for recordings. I'll bet that if you were willing to buy a used DVR, you could probably find someone online, wanting to get rid of theirs, because of the above mentioned problem.

You asked about what they call their editing function. I don't think they have any special name for it. When you navigate to a recording, you have the option of going into an editing mode. The only editing that I've done with it is to trim the beginning and ending of recordings and insert chapter markers. More can be done, like inserting titles and menus, but it tends to be pretty inflexible and cumbersome. When I've wanted to get fancy, I've copied the recording to DVD and loaded it up on my computer and done it there.

danpass wrote:As it turns out, I was mistaken on the brand. The unit we have is a Pioneer DVR-533H. It is listed on their web site in their "older models" section. The only DVR that they list in their current products is the DVR-640H.

Thanks for the update. I like the DVR-640H-S much better than the Panasonic version. The manual is quite a bit less cryptic as well. The problem may be in locating a new one. It may have to be an online purchase as their dealer finder locates no one for my area.

danpass wrote:I did get a really good price on our 533H, because it was a display/floor model and they no longer had the box it came in. However, they had not even plugged it in yet and was in new condition.

danpass wrote:If you look at online discussions about Pioneer DVR's, you'll see a lot of discussion about the TV Guide download feature not working properly. We're not affected by this problem since we can't use it and don't need it. We just manually program the dates and times for recordings. I'll bet that if you were willing to buy a used DVR, you could probably find someone online, wanting to get rid of theirs, because of the above mentioned problem.

I would much prefer a new unit with warranty, even if it's a display model. You're right about the TV Guide feature, no need for that in this situation.

danpass wrote:You asked about what they call their editing function. I don't think they have any special name for it. When you navigate to a recording, you have the option of going into an editing mode. The only editing that I've done with it is to trim the beginning and ending of recordings and insert chapter markers. More can be done, like inserting titles and menus, but it tends to be pretty inflexible and cumbersome. When I've wanted to get fancy, I've copied the recording to DVD and loaded it up on my computer and done it there.

I downloaded the Pioneer and Panasonic manuals, and oddly enough the editing function is called "Editing". Who would have thought it didn't have a catchy name? I'm only interested in trimming the beginning and end of broadcasts so I am not anticipating needing fancy functions.

I've read all the comments on this thread and have come to the conclusion that getting a DVD Recorder without a DVR, either on a computer or built-in, could be a way to have new coasters and spend a lot of time trying to catch rebroadcasts. I can see the advantage of the DVR as it could be programmed to record all broadcasts, then cluster them onto DVD media and start building a library of similar talks. It seems feasible that with a large enough HDD in the DVR section, one could hold a year's broadcasts on HDD and burn as needed. I'm not sure that's practical as electronics can and do fail, so it may be wise to burn them as they are recorded so you don't lose them.

I imagine if one were so inclined they could get a printer that could print on DVD printable media or a Brother P-Touch and label these so they could be easily read and located.

I don't seem to be finding a lot of DVR/DVD Recorder combinations. So far, I've only been able to find the Panasonic and the Pioneer. Is there a good place to "shop" for these online?

Thanks for all the information!

Skip

avskip wrote: I'm only interested in trimming the beginning and end of broadcasts so I am not anticipating needing fancy functions.

Your not going to index the events by talks? That way the teacher can advance directly to the start of each talk.

(Sometimes technology creates more work. Maybe I'll stay with VHS where expectations are low.) :p

avskip wrote:
I imagine if one were so inclined they could get a printer that could print on DVD printable media or a Brother P-Touch and label these so they could be easily read and located.

I use printable discs and print on them with a Casio CW-L300 printer which I got for 129.99 14 months ago. I got this printer because I thought I would use the stand-alone capability to label discs right in the equipment room, were we don't have a computer. However, I've found it much more practical to use this printer connected to a computer. The included software lets you create the label content and preview the disc. You can also save the label content to files. This helps to maintain consistency and also saves work. Since most of the events that we record are recurring, I can open the label I used last time and just change dates and catalog numbers. The printer uses thermal ribbons that last about 50 discs. You can get a 3 pack of ribbons for about $20. If I were to do it again, I would go with one of their cheaper printers that doesn't have the keyboard.

RussellHltn wrote:Your not going to index the events by talks? That way the teacher can advance directly to the start of each talk.

(Sometimes technology creates more work. Maybe I'll stay with VHS where expectations are low.) :p

Hmm, when I would get the feed from TV into my computer I would separate them into talks and create a fancy menu. But the STS would just put them all in a large single video track and the teachers didn't complain.

As to indexing talks, I'll leave that to the librarian and a card catalog. I'm long out of library class.

The Casio disc printers look like a good line. Now to find someone to get them from (maybe direct?)

I managed to get to Walmart yesterday and found another DVR/DVD Recorder combo, a Philips DVDR3575H). They had it for around $297 or so. The clerk said there was a new batch of DVD players and recorders coming in about two weeks so I may go back then.

I think somewhere between now and purchasing the unit I settle on, I need to find out what outputs are available on our equipment to see what I need. Our satellite receiver (DVR396?) is so old that it's not even on the Wegener site, nor the manual in their archives. Right now I'm thinking the best way for input may be via RF as we broadcast English on channel 3 and Spanish on channel 6. It might save having the system rewired to suit.

Does anyone have an idea of what the Church has planned for the future in this area? By that I mean, if we spend a goodly sum of money on a DVR/DVD Recorder what would be the estimated useful life before Church technology obsoletes it?

Thanks for all the comments on this! I'm learning.

Skip

In my previous stake, I had the user's manual for the DVR39* receivers, but I did not take a copy with me. If you really want the manual, I could see if I could find out who's doing satellite there now and see if they would send you a copy.

If I remember correctly, the only useful video output from the DVR39* was a baseband composite video. That was usually fed to a tree of between one and three video distribution amplifiers to feed the modulators, projector jacks, etc. If there's an extra output on one of your video DAs, you could get video from there. In theory, you'll get better quality from baseband video and audio than from RF. In practice, the difference in quality will be very small, especially if you have the black 1U rackmount modulators.

I have been told my current stake center has a Church-supplied DVD burner of some kind, but I haven't seen it or been told any details. (I'm in another meetinghouse, and we just got a new Church-supplied VCR in the satellite rack.)

rmrichesjr wrote:In my previous stake, I had the user's manual for the DVR39* receivers, but I did not take a copy with me. If you really want the manual, I could see if I could find out who's doing satellite there now and see if they would send you a copy.

Thanks for the offer, but it's not necessary!

If I remember correctly, the only useful video output from the DVR39* was a baseband composite video. That was usually fed to a tree of between one and three video distribution amplifiers to feed the modulators, projector jacks, etc. If there's an extra output on one of your video DAs, you could get video from there. In theory, you'll get better quality from baseband video and audio than from RF. In practice, the difference in quality will be very small, especially if you have the black 1U rack-mount modulators.

We do have the black rack-mount modulators. We also have a VERY long run to the satellite so the picture is ALWAYS a bit grainy due to low level. Not sure why they left it like that. I was told it was the best they could do with the long run.

Another reason I thought of RF was we broadcast English on Ch 3 and Spanish on Ch 6 so it would make it easy to record each broadcast unattended.

I have been told my current stake center has a Church-supplied DVD burner of some kind, but I haven't seen it or been told any details. (I'm in another meetinghouse, and we just got a new Church-supplied VCR in the satellite rack.)

I was told that there would be a DVD Recorder available via FM Group soon but that it would NOT include a hard disk drive. I'm really waiting to see what they approve to see what SL feels we need at the Stake then I intend to attempt to find a DVR/DVD Recorder combo to match if I can. The problem is the choices seem pretty limited in what I've been able to see on the net and the local Walmart.

Speaking of 1U black modulators, I've seen two different brands used. On the last renovation, they installed something like a "Pico" brand. Of the 6 we had, all but one died with a bad hum in the audio. They've since been replaced with (I think) Blonder-Tongue. If I'm not mistaken, Blonder-Tongue is one of the "big boys" in the CATV business so hopefully they will hold up.

RussellHltn wrote:Speaking of 1U black modulators, I've seen two different brands used. On the last renovation, they installed something like a "Pico" brand. Of the 6 we had, all but one died with a bad hum in the audio. They've since been replaced with (I think) Blonder-Tongue. If I'm not mistaken, Blonder-Tongue is one of the "big boys" in the CATV business so hopefully they will hold up.

Interesting you should say this. In recording yesterday's broadcast, I found channel 6 (the Pico) modulator with really bad video hum bars and an atrocious audio hum. I'll be on the phone with the FMG tomorrow about it.

Blonder-Tongue has been around a LONG time in electronics so they probably have a bit of a head start on later companies.

I haven't done it yet, but I think the Picos can be cheaply repaired. The power supply is dirt simple. As long as the power transformer hasn't burned out, all the parts in the power supply can be replace for about $7 at the local electronics store.

The hum should away after adding a capacitor between the + to GND and - to GND.

thedqs wrote:The hum should away after adding a capacitor between the + to GND and - to GND.

Wellllllll, personally I'd like to find out what failed and get the circuit to work as designed (but with better parts so it doesn't fail again.) From a quick look, it appears the power supply uses a center-tapped transformer, two diodes, a cap and a basic 3 lead voltage regulator. A failure of any of those component will result in excessive hum. Shouldn't be hard to troubleshoot and fix.

RussellHltn wrote:A center-tapped transformer

Failure in this wouldn't cause a hum just a complete failure. So most likely not.

RussellHltn wrote: two diodes

This would cause a reverse current and most likely destroy the board not cause a hum.

RussellHltn wrote:a cap

This would cause a hum from the DC voltage dropping to 0 every 60 Hz. Most likely the problem.

RussellHltn wrote:a basic 3 lead voltage regulator

Don't see how this would cause a hum, but if it was supplying too much voltage that might burn out the board and too little voltage would cause distortion not a hum.

thedqs wrote:Failure in this wouldn't cause a hum just a complete failure. So most likely not.


This would cause a reverse current and most likely destroy the board not cause a hum.



This would cause a hum from the DC voltage dropping to 0 every 60 Hz. Most likely the problem.


Don't see how this would cause a hum, but if it was supplying too much voltage that might burn out the board and too little voltage would cause distortion not a hum.

An open in one leg of the transformer's secondary winding or an open in one of the two diodes might cause hum by increasing the ripple voltage, but only if the design had _VERY_ little voltage drop across the regulator or a rather large intended ripple voltage across the capacitor. Another possible cause of the hum might be some other component (maybe not in the power supply section) pulling excessive current, but that would be accompanied by said component getting unusually hot, perhaps glowing red or letting out some quantity of smoke. A short across part of the transformer secondary might reduce voltage enough to cause hum, but the transformer would get much warmer than usual. Looking at the voltage across the capacitor should go a long way toward revealing the true culprit. Better yet, if you have two units of the same brand, would be to compare voltages and waveforms between the two units.

Transformer: If it was one side of the secondary, the circuit would go from full-wave to half wave rectification and would cause a more ripple then the designers intended.

Diode: If it failed open, the power supply would again become a half-wave rectifier. The one I worry about is if the diode shorted and took out the transformer.

Capacitor: Quite possible. Although failure of capacitors running at 60 Hz aren't very common. (Switching power supplies are another story.)

Regulator: With a voltage regulator, there is no need to filter the DC down to pure DC. One only needs to keep the minimum instantaneous voltage from going under the regulator's minimum input voltage. If the regulator shorted out, it would cause an overvoltage to the rest of the modulator, but it would also pass on more hum then normal.

I hadn't thought of the over current, but that's also a possibility.

So, anything is possible. I'll just have to dig in and see what is wrong. However right now I'm packing to go on vacation so it might be awhile before I get to dig in.

rmrichesjr wrote:An open in one leg of the transformer's secondary winding or an open in one of the two diodes might cause hum by increasing the ripple voltage, but only if the design had _VERY_ little voltage drop across the regulator or a rather large intended ripple voltage across the capacitor. Another possible cause of the hum might be some other component (maybe not in the power supply section) pulling excessive current, but that would be accompanied by said component getting unusually hot, perhaps glowing red or letting out some quantity of smoke. A short across part of the transformer secondary might reduce voltage enough to cause hum, but the transformer would get much warmer than usual. Looking at the voltage across the capacitor should go a long way toward revealing the true culprit. Better yet, if you have two units of the same brand, would be to compare voltages and waveforms between the two units.

I think I know what's causing the problem, it's been overheated. I'm unfamiliar with the temperature level of the equipment, but the DVR396 is almost too hot to touch. It's right below the Pico modulator and heat does rise.

Someone has the rack in this area set this way:

Blonder-Tongue Modulator for Ch# 3
Pico Modulator for Ch#6
DVR396
Sanyo VHS Recorder stacked on
Sanyo VHS Recorder sitting on
shelf

I've suggested the DVR 396 be separate from the other components due to the heat it's giving off. Should they be THAT warm? The stake building stays in the low 70's most of the time. There is NO ventilation for the closet that I can see (who designed these?). There's another rack across from this one that's locked that houses all the audio amplifiers and transmitters. I've no key to that so I can't mess with it (their loss!).

I've called the local FM group and told them what's wrong. If they can't fix it, I guess I'll have to get out my gear and go do it myself.

Skip

avskip wrote:I think I know what's causing the problem, it's been overheated.

Maybe. In our rack (which has side vents) the modulators are all stacked together, but are separate from sat receiver and other items. I don't think the modulators are that warm and I think the survivor has been toward the top of the stack.

RussellHltn wrote:Maybe. In our rack (which has side vents) the modulators are all stacked together, but are separate from sat receiver and other items. I don't think the modulators are that warm and I think the survivor has been toward the top of the stack.

I guess I wasn't really plain enough in what I typed. It was all correct in my head when I typed it.

What I meant was that the sat receiver seems to be really hot. The other components don't seem to have a large amount of heat except those close to the sat receiver.

We have side vents also.

I guess I'll see what they wind up fixing or replacing.

Skip

avskip wrote:I guess I wasn't really plain enough in what I typed. It was all correct in my head when I typed it.

No, I understood what you said. Heat dissipation is a valid concern when stacking. The receiver seems to run warmer then I'd like. It uses some small fan that I wonder when it will choke on the dust. (Seems like fan reliability is inversely proportional to the size of the fan. ) Running 24/7 it's got to be collecting dust.

But I don't think heat is a primary factor in the failure of the modulators. If only one channel has hum bars in the video, then it has to be the modulator since it's the same video feed for all channels. The audio feed is what's different.

rmrichesjr wrote:An open in one leg of the transformer's secondary winding or an open in one of the two diodes might cause hum by increasing the ripple voltage, but only if the design had _VERY_ little voltage drop across the regulator or a rather large intended ripple voltage across the capacitor. Another possible cause of the hum might be some other component (maybe not in the power supply section) pulling excessive current, but that would be accompanied by said component getting unusually hot, perhaps glowing red or letting out some quantity of smoke. A short across part of the transformer secondary might reduce voltage enough to cause hum, but the transformer would get much warmer than usual. Looking at the voltage across the capacitor should go a long way toward revealing the true culprit. Better yet, if you have two units of the same brand, would be to compare voltages and waveforms between the two units.

Great points and thanks for the corrections.

In all my looking I've only found 3 current models of DVD recorders that have an internal hard disk (DVR).

Thus far are a Sony model (very expensive), Pioneer and Philips. I don't recall all the model numbers, but I have noticed that the only one I seem to find available to purchase is the Philips and that's at Walmart!

Is there something I'm unaware of that's coming down the line to replace these units? Is the lack of product presence only because of their pricing?

Is recording direct to a blank DVD really THAT reliable?

I"m puzzled, but that's normal anymore.

Regards,
Skip

My sister recently purchased the Toshiba DVD recordered that doesn't have the internal drive, but recording straight to DVD instead of hard drive doesn't improve the realiability just that you can at least preview the program before commiting it to disc. All the same options of titling the show, splitting it up into chapters, etc were available. If you really want a hard drive feel without the hard drive expense then just buy a few DVD-RW and record onto those. That way it is the same as having a 4.7 GB hard drive (except after 1000 or so re-records you have to replace the disc).

avskip wrote:...
Is recording direct to a blank DVD really THAT reliable?
...

thedqs wrote:My sister recently purchased the Toshiba DVD recordered that doesn't have the internal drive, but recording straight to DVD instead of hard drive doesn't improve the realiability just that you can at least preview the program before commiting it to disc. All the same options of titling the show, splitting it up into chapters, etc were available. If you really want a hard drive feel without the hard drive expense then just buy a few DVD-RW and record onto those. That way it is the same as having a 4.7 GB hard drive (except after 1000 or so re-records you have to replace the disc).

I thought Skip's point was that recording straight to _only_ a DVD _reduces_ the reliability. When recording to hard disk on a decent system, there's very little probability of an I/O error causing loss of the content. When recording only to a DVD, if the DVD becomes a coaster, you just lost the content. If I were recording important one-of-a-kind content without a hard disk, I'd want two DVD recorders working in parallel and a VHS for good measure.

rmrichesjr wrote:If I were recording important one-of-a-kind content without a hard disk, ....

I'd find the manufactor's list of recommended media and use only that. In a ideal world, all blank media will work. But the truth is it's better to stick to the media the manfuactor actually calibrated the unit for.

I think the lack of hard drive in burners are because for most people who want that function they buy dedicated DVRs.

RussellHltn wrote:I think the lack of hard drive in burners are because for most people who want that function they buy dedicated DVRs.

Actually that is what my sister has but the DVR recording is less reliable then the straight to DVD recording.

RussellHltn wrote:I'd find the manufactor's list of recommended media and use only that. In a ideal world, all blank media will work. But the truth is it's better to stick to the media the manfuactor actually calibrated the unit for.

However, at least with CDs, you're going to end up with a coaster every so often. (I'm just a tiny bit short of switching from CDs to DVDs for personal system backup.) Unless DVDs are much more reliable than CDs in terms of coaster frequency, which an earlier question had asked, if a single DVD is all you're recording to you're at risk of losing a one-of-a-kind program.

RussellHltn wrote:I think the lack of hard drive in burners are because for most people who want that function they buy dedicated DVRs.

Between that and the manufacturer cost to put in a hard disk, I agree with your theory.

rmrichesjr wrote:However, at least with CDs, you're going to end up with a coaster every so often. (I'm just a tiny bit short of switching from CDs to DVDs for personal system backup.) Unless DVDs are much more reliable than CDs in terms of coaster frequency, which an earlier question had asked, if a single DVD is all you're recording to you're at risk of losing a one-of-a-kind program.

Maybe I am just lucky or something but I haven't had much of a problem with coster CDs or DVDs and I make DVDs more often then CDs.

thedqs wrote:Actually that is what my sister has but the DVR recording is less reliable then the straight to DVD recording.

I'm really curious as to how the DVR recording is less reliable? I have a DVR from the cable company here and it works fairly well. It's a Motorola MOXIE system if I remember right. I've not had real problems with the HDD portion, but their software and power supply could use a redesign.

Skip

Her DVR would lose segments of the recorded show and just report that it had gone missing but the Dish Network said that the drive is fine.

The DVD recording hasn't failed recording live TV and only when the signal degrades does that get passed onto the DVD. Of course this is only 2 weeks of testing that has been completed and she works with it more then I do.

thedqs wrote:Her DVR would lose segments of the recorded show and just report that it had gone missing but the Dish Network said that the drive is fine.

The DVD recording hasn't failed recording live TV and only when the signal degrades does that get passed onto the DVD. Of course this is only 2 weeks of testing that has been completed and she works with it more then I do.

I've seen similar on the DVR I have from the cable company, but it's usually when the drive is pretty full. I think it indicate's a bad area on the hard drive. I've also wondered if it was just a recorded glitch in the digital signal as it's very consistent when viewing. If it weren't a recorded signal I'd think it would change the way it looks.

This makes me wonder if there's a 100% reliable medium for recording!

I think I would feel safer having the hard drive as well as the recorder.

When I was at Walmart yesterday, I noticed they had a Polaroid DVR/DVD Recorder combo and there were RCA and a couple of other brands on a closeout shelf. The closeouts appeared to be returns from the carton conditions.

avskip wrote:I've seen similar on the DVR I have from the cable company, but it's usually when the drive is pretty full. I think it indicate's a bad area on the hard drive.

I wonder if it's because the disk drive is having to scramble more to find open blocks to write in. It might also be needing to look for things it can overwrite and the extra task is just too much for the hard drive to keep up with the data stream.

avskip wrote:This makes me wonder if there's a 100% reliable medium for recording!

The Book of Life though it can be edited.

I wanted to post and let everyone know of my decision and recommendation for a DVD Recorder.

I've decided it has to have a DVR. There are many reasons, but I feel it a good thing to have.

I have recommended that we purchase the Philips DVDR3575H/37 which includes a DVR with 160GB hard drive. These have been recently released and Walmart has them priced at $298.00. I'm also recommending the 3 year extended warranty at $23.88 as it seems quite an exceptional value. I've never seen an extended warranty that includes what theirs does.

There's one specialty forum ([url=http://www.avsforum.com/]http://www.avsforum.com/[/URL]) where the participants seem to be knowledgeable and they seem to really like this unit. It's not perfect, but the downfalls I've read about would not affect us. These are cable TV related functions that we don't need or can't use (TV Guide, QAM etc).

So there you have it. Now to go through the process of obtaining it!

Thanks for all of your input on this thread, it's been enlightening and very appreciated!

Regards,
Skip Taylor

Thank you for posting which one you liked but please remember that this model is not supported by the church and so we are not advertising this on the site and that nobody actually has to go out and procure one.

Didn't someone's blog indicate that there are more homes with DVD then VCRs? If the goal for the recording is to make them available to members via the library, it's just a matter of time before we change over to DVD.

Yea though the implementation of the system that records to DVD will be up to the stakes and their budget. The church never sent out packaged VCRs to the stakes, they just gave funds to the stakes to buy their own equipment.

thedqs wrote:Yea though the implementation of the system that records to DVD will be up to the stakes and their budget. The church never sent out packaged VCRs to the stakes, they just gave funds to the stakes to buy their own equipment.

Modern systems upgrades to the sound and satellite systems done by Church contractors do include a VCR--at least for the Newberg, Oregon meetinghouse in the Summer of 2006 and my previous stake center in the Fall of 2004. Although I have not actually seen the unit, I'm told my current stake center had a DVD burner installed by Church contractors as part of their satellite upgrade during Summer or Fall of 2006.

thedqs wrote:Thank you for posting which one you liked but please remember that this model is not supported by the church and so we are not advertising this on the site and that nobody actually has to go out and procure one.

I put the message on so that someone wouldn't have to wonder what the outcome was of that entire thread.

I know it's not a supported model, nor even a supported type of DVD recorder - NOR is it recommended by the Church.

This is what I decided on for the situation for my Stake. Your situation will vary, so do your own due diligence!

Has anyone seen a DVD recorder lately?

Seems like when I look for them they are all old ones. Did they drop out of the market?

Has anyone implemented a recording system that works well in the last couple of years?

Let me know if you see this!

Thanks

Mbell

I've seen DVD Recorders in the stores. What I don't see anymore is DVD Recorders with built-in hard drives.

mbell2034 wrote:Has anyone seen a DVD recorder lately?

Seems like when I look for them they are all old ones. Did they drop out of the market?

Has anyone implemented a recording system that works well in the last couple of years?

Let me know if you see this!

Thanks

Mbell

It's been over two years since we purchased a DVD recorder (Sony) for the stake. The recorder is installed into the Satellite cabinet and used to record broadcasts. It's been working very well.

I do know that DVD recorders are still available in the stores. Although, as has been stated, I don't see them any more with a hard-drive. Most of the Cable/Satellite companies now offer their DVR's which include a hard-drive, so the market for a DVD recorder w/hard-drive has possible fallen.

rmrichesjr wrote:If I remember correctly, the only useful video output from the DVR39* was a baseband composite video.

Correct, the DVR39* has only 1 video out, in the form of an RCA composite Video connector. Depending on the revision, it has room for up to 4 stereo audio ports for up to 8 languages. all of the newer units have 2 video outputs, and 1 to 2 Stereo Audio ports

avskip wrote:Thanks for the offer, but it's not necessary!
We do have the black rack-mount modulators. We also have a VERY long run to the satellite so the picture is ALWAYS a bit grainy due to low level. Not sure why they left it like that. I was told it was the best they could do with the long run.

The Satellite is use now are all digital so there shoudn't be any "grainyness" to it. if your picture is graining, not pixelated, (ie signal cuts in and out) the grainynessis liley a functio of the modulator going bad, or not being set up right.

RussellHltn wrote:Speaking of 1U black modulators, I've seen two different brands used. On the last renovation, they installed something like a "Pico" brand. Of the 6 we had, all but one died with a bad hum in the audio. They've since been replaced with (I think) Blonder-Tongue. If I'm not mistaken, Blonder-Tongue is one of the "big boys" in the CATV business so hopefully they will hold up.

There are 2 standard modulators used in the church based on the current standard plans... The Pico Macom PCM55, and the Blonder Tongue BAV. the Pico is about $10 less in upfront costs than the BT, so when contractor are installing them they usually opt for the Pico, as its a competitive bid enviroment.
However the Satelite Support Desk at CHQ buys the Blonder Tonge, as they get better pricing due to the volume they purchase, which is where your FM group gets them from

If you have a BT, it's most likely because the last modulator for that channel went bad, and your FM goup repalced it.

Both the Pico, and the BT are reputable, and you should expect similar life expectancies from both.

By the way your audio hum occurs because the power supply in the modulator is beginning to fail.

rmrichesjr wrote:Modern systems upgrades to the sound and satellite systems done by Church contractors do include a VCR--at least for the Newberg, Oregon meetinghouse in the Summer of 2006 and my previous stake center in the Fall of 2004.

Upgrades are a little diffrent than new buildings, in that alot more flexibility is given in the design to accomodate what the local mebership needs. so it is still going to be hit or miss. But if you have a sound system upgrade comming up make sure the FM group knows of your desire to have 1 installed, and they should be able to have the contractor install one. (Budget availiblity always being a factor)

one of the counselors in the stake presidency in my stake has suggested burning dvds using the videos that the church provides online, I'm not so sure about what the plan is about those other broadcasts that don't get dvds released.