Audio System Line out has distortion/clipping

Hi, everyone.
Our region has been instructed to have a chapel meeting broadcast every Sunday.
Yesterday was our first broadcast from the chapel.
It went fine for a first time but there were a few issues with the audio.
Here's my setup...
I found the mono output under the Sacrament table that had been used to record to the tape recorder that's still there.
I plugged in a mono to stereo adapter and then ran a 3.5 mm stereo male to male cable into the audio input of my capture card.
We used Zoom Webinar to broadcast the meeting.
Attendees said the audio had an issue. I logged in on my phone to listen in and indeed heard there was an issue with the audio.
I wouldn't say that it sounded distorted. The best way for me to attempt to describe it is that I believe the audio was clipping because I'm guessing that the volume output from the sound system was too loud.
When we looked at the Zoom settings it had the audio adjusted all the way down.
After the meeting was over we did some testing via Zoom to see if we could get better sound.
I plugged in my Takstar shotgun mic to the capture card.
Sound was clear and the Zoom audio levels were in the middle.
My preference is to come directly off the chapel audio system because that looks cleaner at the podium than having another mic there and it's simpler to setup.
So I'd like to try and get the sound off of the chapel audio system to work with my broadcast.
I'm guessing here but I wonder if I purchase an attenuator to reduce the volume from the sound system would be the solution?

As an aside...
For years, when our Stake broadcasts Stake Conference to the chapels from the Stake Center, I noticed an issue with the sound. It had this same problem.

Thanks, everyone!
I hope you're all doing well.
Let me know if you have any questions.

EarloftheWest wrote:I'm guessing here but I wonder if I purchase an attenuator to reduce the volume from the sound system would be the solution?

Yes, you need an attenuator. The sound system is line out, and it sounds like you're connecting it to a mic in.

russellhltn wrote:

EarloftheWest wrote:I'm guessing here but I wonder if I purchase an attenuator to reduce the volume from the sound system would be the solution?

Yes, you need an attenuator. The sound system is line out, and it sounds like you're connecting it to a mic in.

Glad to see I'm on the right track.
Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Volbox-inline-au ... 220&sr=8-3
Or do I need this:
https://www.amazon.com/Sescom-LN2MIC-ZO ... 516&sr=8-9

Thanks!

The volume control may work. It depends on it's "taper" as to how fast it gets loud at the low end.

The cable will probably work as long as HDSLR have the same mic connections as a computer. I'm not sure about that.

Keep in mind the sound system audio out is strictly mono (tip and sleeve) There is no "ring". A stereo connection would work, but be only one channel. I don't think that's a concern for either of these options.

russellhltn wrote:The volume control may work. It depends on it's "taper" as to how fast it gets loud at the low end.

The cable will probably work as long as HDSLR have the same mic connections as a computer. I'm not sure about that.

Keep in mind the sound system audio out is strictly mono (tip and sleeve) There is no "ring". A stereo connection would work, but be only one channel. I don't think that's a concern for either of these options.

Thanks for your help on this.

Switching gears on solving this problem...
Our Chapel has wireless earphones that people who are hard of hearing can borrow from the library and listen to the speakers.
Would there be any benefit/ease of use in receiving the signal wirelessly from our sound system and put into the mic input?

EarloftheWest wrote:Would there be any benefit/ease of use in receiving the signal wirelessly from our sound system and put into the mic input?

First, you need to make sure the transmitter is reliable. I've had some become intermittent. The next issue is you have to make sure the receiver will turn on and stay on. I think most do not have a switch, but rely on the presence of the earphone to turn on. I'm not sure about the details. It may not be the presence of a plug, but the low impedance of the earphone that turns it on. You'd have to play with it to make sure it works and will stay on.

Older Comtek units can be noisy.

While it can be done, it seems like more opportunity for things to go wrong. I'm not sure if it overcomes the advantage of not having to run a wire.

@russellhltn
Another question about attenuation cables...
Sescom seems to be one of the leaders in making attenuation cables.
It appears that they make a variety of 3.5mm line out to mic in cables with differing attenuation levels.

From their website...
https://www.sescom.com/products/view/ca ... der-cables
I'm seeing 50db, 35db, 33db and 25db.

Based on research, our ward has purchased the Canon HF R800.
This camcorder, in addition to our capture card, requires a powered microphone. i.e., one with a battery etc.

Is there anyway that we can get guidance on the exact cable that we need?
Or would a 25db be sufficient in most cases?

Thanks!

UPDATE:
I sent Sescom an email and they suggested that this cable:
LN2MIC-ZOOMH4N 3.5mm Line To Mic DSL Cable For Zoom H4-PRO Recorders – 9 Inch
which provides 25db of attenuation should be the one I should purchase.

I haven't had a chance to run the numbers, but it has to be in the right ballpark in order to meet that usage case.

One issue - these are all stereo connections. Depending on what controls you have, you may need to add a mono to stereo adapter in order to adapt the mono sound system output to the stereo connection the cable/camera is expecting.

OK, so the "Record Out" jack is a mono jack, with just a tip for mono audio and a sleeve for ground, right?
A TRS connector uses the tip for the left channel, the ring for the right channel, and the sleeve for ground.
A TRRS connector (used by phones, laptops, and cameras) uses the tip for the left channel, the first ring for the right channel, the second ring for ground, and the sleeve for the microphone.

So we need a cable (or a cable and an adapter) that will connect the mono audio contact (the tip) of the "Record Out" TS jack to the microphone contact (the sleeve) of our laptop or camera TRRS jack, and attenuate the line level signal so it doesn't overpower the microphone input.

I went from REC OUT to a mono to stereo adapter and that worked fine. We heard sound coming from both speakers.
So I think we're good there.
I think the only issue now is the level of attenuation.
I ended up purchasing the
LN2MIC-ZOOMH4N 3.5mm Line To Mic DSL Cable For Zoom H4-PRO Recorders – 9 Inch
(which provides 25db of attenuation) as recommended by the vendor, but it won't be here for at least 10 days.
At this point we're in experiment mode. We'll probably spend a bit on cables etc. until enough people can confirm a solution.
Ideally, it would be nice if we could get the exact specs of the REC OUT so we have that as a data point. Then, determining the amount of attenuation would be easier.
I looked through historical threads on this website and it appears that people have been trying to do this for over 5 years, but I don't see that anyone has recommend an exact solution.
It'll be nice when we can say "this works".
I mentioned this above but it's worth reiterating... when Stake Conference was broadcast from the Stake Center to the chapels, the sound had the issue I've described. I suspect that when that system was installed, they took the REC OUT / line out level and plugged it directly into their equipment without attenuation.
So I think this isn't an just an issue that Wards are having as they try and do broadcasts from the Church. Some Stake Centers may have this issue for their broadcasts as well.
I'm really looking forward to the time where we can have a final answer on this one.
Thanks for everyone's help!

UPDATE:
This thread from the Canon (Since we're using the HF R800) website has some good information regarding line level to mic input.
They are recommending 50db of attenuation.
https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/Camc ... 2111#M3600

drepouille wrote:OK, so the "Record Out" jack is a mono jack, with just a tip for mono audio and a sleeve for ground, right?
A TRRS connector (used by phones, laptops, and cameras) uses the tip for the left channel, the first ring for the right channel, the second ring for ground, and the sleeve for the microphone.

You've got a good call out above. Users need to know if their camera needs a TRS or TRRS plug.
In my case, the manual for the Canon HF R800 says that it will accept a stereo mic with a 3.5mm plug.
I wish it would have specified TRS as opposed to stereo since TRS is more specific.

Thanks!

Yes, you need to go from TS to TRS. No TRRS that I see.

What you need to watch out for is there's two levels of line out. Consumer (typically RCA jacks) and Professional (XLR). The professional is a lot hotter. Connecting Pro to consumer can result in distortion. While the church system is "pro", I think that output has probably been turned down to "consumer".

But a TRS does not have a microphone line or connector. The audio output from the sound system must be connected to the microphone input on the laptop.

I am thinking this:
https://www.amazon.com/AAOTOKK-Adaptado ... B07V4XFLMM
or this:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingtop-adaptado ... B01I3A47I4
or anything similar to these.

But we still need to attenuate the signal before it reaches the microphone input.

I believe he's talking about plugging it into his camera, which is a TRS and wired more like a stereo line out.

If he is going to the laptop, then depending on the laptop, it may be TRS powered mono microphone (different pinout), or TRRS (headset). A few even have stereo line in, but that's unusual.

I bought these to go from the REC OUT to my device.
Mono Plug to 3.5mm Stereo Jack Adaptor
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002N ... UTF8&psc=1
25ft male to male 3.5mm cable
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... =UTF8&th=1
But I need to add the attenuator to the mix.

UPDATE:
In retrospect, I would get...
1. The mono to stereo adapter
2. The male to male attenuator (when we figure out which one we need)
3. A 50ft 3.5mm female to male extension.

I would want the 50 feet because it would provide more flexibility in camera and equipment placement.

drepouille wrote:But a TRS does not have a microphone line or connector. The audio output from the sound system must be connected to the microphone input on the laptop.

I am thinking this:
https://www.amazon.com/AAOTOKK-Adaptado ... B07V4XFLMM
or this:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingtop-adaptado ... B01I3A47I4
or anything similar to these.

I don't think your "mic in" on your laptop is TRRS. I bet your laptop needs a TRS. You'll want to check the specs.
I believe that iPhones and such would be TRRS, though.

It's my understanding that TRS is stereo.
The Takstar SGT-598 that we bought has a Stereo/TRS jack.

russellhltn wrote:While the church system is "pro", I think that output has probably been turned down to "consumer".

Will be updating my communication with Sescom.
Maybe 25db is right.
Thank you.

EarloftheWest wrote:I don't think your "mic in" on your laptop is TRRS.

Depends on the laptop. I have 3 different models in arm's reach. Only the oldest has separate headphone and mic jacks. It seems the trend is toward the all-in-on TRRS headset jack.

Look carefully at the icon - is it just headphones, or does the picture have a boom mic attached?

russellhltn wrote:

EarloftheWest wrote:I don't think your "mic in" on your laptop is TRRS.

Depends on the laptop. I have 3 different models in arm's reach. Only the oldest has separate headphone and mic jacks. It seems the trend is toward the all-in-on TRRS headset jack.

Look carefully at the icon - is it just headphones, or does the picture have a boom mic attached?

Good call. Thanks!

drepouille wrote: I am thinking this:
https://www.amazon.com/AAOTOKK-Adaptado ... B07V4XFLMM
or this:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingtop-adaptado ... B01I3A47I4
or anything similar to these.

Yeah, based on what you've said in your other post, the above looks right.
Are you just going to use a standard web cam?

I just use a Logitech C922. The microphones seem to pick up the person speaking at the podium just fine, with a little room noise (such as babies crying). I am trying to decide whether to stick with that, or to switch to wired audio from the chapel sound system.

drepouille wrote:The microphones seem to pick up the person speaking at the podium just fine, with a little room noise (such as babies crying). I am trying to decide whether to stick with that, or to switch to wired audio from the chapel sound system.

The biggest thing I'd look for is what it's like at the receiving end. Can you hear the speaker clearly, or are they too echoey or "distant" sounding? Does it sound like general conference, or does it sound like the mic was in the back of the room?

If it sounds fine, I'd leave it. The room mic is probably doing a better job of picking up the organ. Having some audience reaction is a good thing.

drepouille wrote:I just use a Logitech C922. The microphones seem to pick up the person speaking at the podium just fine, with a little room noise (such as babies crying). I am trying to decide whether to stick with that, or to switch to wired audio from the chapel sound system.

I've read a few posts online which say the audio quality is more important than the video quality for some psychological reason, etc.

russellhltn wrote:The room mic is probably doing a better job of picking up the organ. Having some audience reaction is a good thing.

That is one of my concerns -- that the podium mic will not pick up the organ or the piano. I have to remind everyone to speak directly into the mic, after all.

russellhltn wrote:First, you need to make sure the transmitter is reliable. I've had some become intermittent. The next issue is you have to make sure the receiver will turn on and stay on. I think most do not have a switch, but rely on the presence of the earphone to turn on. I'm not sure about the details. It may not be the presence of a plug, but the low impedance of the earphone that turns it on. You'd have to play with it to make sure it works and will stay on.

Older Comtek units can be noisy.

While it can be done, it seems like more opportunity for things to go wrong. I'm not sure if it overcomes the advantage of not having to run a wire.

I did a test broadcast this morning, using a Comtek receiver with new batteries to feed the microphone input of my laptop, but I was not happy with the sound quality. The sound was constantly cutting out, but that could have been for any number of reasons.
- I was playing music and vocals, not spoken words. 
- I may have had the volume too high on either the media player or on the Comtek receiver.
- I was using the meeetinghouse wireless, instead of the wired network connection.

I will try it again during Sacrament meeting tomorrow, and ask those who dial in to provide feedback. Maybe we can find a setting that works.

drepouille wrote:I may have had the volume too high on either the media player or on the Comtek receiver.

Doesn't the Comtek system include a lot of audio processing, including automatic gain control? That would account for much of the noise.

drepouille wrote:The sound was constantly cutting out, but that could have been for any number of reasons.
- I was playing music and vocals, not spoken words. 
- I may have had the volume too high on either the media player or on the Comtek receiver.
- I was using the meeetinghouse wireless, instead of the wired network connection

1 - I wouldn't think that changes anything.
2 - Seems unlikely
3 - Are you sending video, or just audio? I'd think that would cut out the entire signal, not just audio
4 - I think the receiver needs to see "earphone" type electrical load to stay on.
5 - That's the way I've seen those transmitters fail. (We have a leader that's hard of hearing that tells me about it.) I'd wear one like how it's normally done just to make sure the transmitter isn't cutting out.

All,

Yesterday, I received the attenuator I purchased. I packed up all my gear and when to the church for a test session. I was hopeful.

I had my wife and son watching a zoom meeting from home.

I ran the REC OUT to a mono --> stereo adapter --> attenuation cable --> capture card.

The feedback I received was that the sound was either too loud or too soft and in general didn't sound good.

I switched to my Takstar shotgun microphone which I had taped to the podium and both my wife and son said the sound was much better.

So we'll be using the Takstar in our meeting today.

Best option...
We need the sound engineers who know about the church's sound system to install a "mic out" connection so we can just plug it into our capture cards, computers etc.

As another option...
I would probably want to get some type of sound mixer where I can plug the church's XLR microphones directly into it and then come from the sound mixer to a "mic in" on my capture card. Then I could use the XLR mic from the podium and also use one of the other microphones for the piano.

I've been having fun building my custom audio cable. First lesson: the phone has to see a DC resistance of 1000 ohms or higher, otherwise it won't recognize the mic input. I started with 25dB attenuation as was suggested, but based on my tests at home with my cable box, that seems way too low. I've found a new value, but have to see how that works at church. I tried using my phone's internal mic, but the amount of echo rendered that option down near "better than no sound at all". I'm suspecting some kind of noise cancellation technology is in play.

My Comtek experiments have not gone well at all. I think my next test will be to tape the Lavalier Lapel Microphone to the microphone arm on the pulpit. Then I just need to connect the output from the base station to the mic input of my laptop. Is that possible?

drepouille wrote:I think my next test will be to tape the Lavalier Lapel Microphone to the microphone arm on the pulpit. Then I just need to connect the output from the base station to the mic input of my laptop. Is that possible?

This is what my Bishop's friend is doing in their Ward.

I'm sure it would work fine.

Today we had a broadcast and we used the Takstar shotgun microphone.
For the most part, the feedback I received was that the sound was fine on the receiving end.
We taped the microphone to the microphone on the pulpit.
We're using Zoom Webinar to broadcast the service.
One thing that I think is going on is that "something" either the capture card or Zoom is auto adjusting the volume. My wife said, that the sound would get quite or loud and she had to adjust the volume on her end to compensate.
I unchecked the "auto adjust volume" on Zoom and played with the slider and it didn't seem to impact the sound output.

Switching gears...
After the broadcast, we plugged the attenuator back into the REC OUT and did some more testing with the chapel audio.

The Organ sounded better with the pulpit microphone than the Takstar (from what I was told.)
I believe that I noticed that the auto-adjust of the volume happening with the Zoom broadcast using the chapel audio just as what may have been happening with the Takstar.

So, maybe the attenuator is the right choice?

I think we're going to try the chapel audio with the attenuator for next week.

EarloftheWest wrote:One thing that I think is going on is that "something" either the capture card or Zoom is auto adjusting the volume. My wife said, that the sound would get quite or loud and she had to adjust the volume on her end to compensate.

Maybe. I think we tolerate a much winder volume range when in-person than we do when sitting in front of the tv.

russellhltn wrote:I tried using my phone's internal mic, but the amount of echo rendered that option down near "better than no sound at all". I'm suspecting some kind of noise cancellation technology is in play.

It slowly dawns on me what my problem was - sitting in the second row, I was in a zone where I could hear the speaker directly as well as the sound system. Not an issue for people with normal hearing, but a real problem for a microphone. And not something I could detect when I was running my tests by myself. I only discovered it sitting in that spot during the meeting.

Moving the cell phone much closer is likely to fix that problem.

russellhltn wrote:I was in a zone where I could hear the speaker directly as well as the sound system.

It would be so much easier if the cell phone could provide both the video and the audio.

lajackson wrote:

russellhltn wrote:I was in a zone where I could hear the speaker directly as well as the sound system.

It would be so much easier if the cell phone could provide both the video and the audio.

I'm missing something. The webcast from the cell phone does both. The problem I experienced is that I parked my tripod in a bad spot for sound and ended up using a custom cable to connect my cell phone to the sound system.

The only reason I figured it out is during the meeting I caught my brain switching it's filtering between the two sound sources. (if that makes sense).

I think if the phone was much closer to the podium, then the direct sound would be strong enough to be usable.

russellhltn wrote:I'm missing something.

Not at all. I was thinking that I would need a special audio cable if I used a cell phone. I understand why you had one and that you believe moving the phone closer to the podium will allow the phone microphone to be used.

I hope that is true and I expect it to be so. And things will be extremely simple at that point. Which is the point. [grin]

I am glad you figured out why the ;problem. I would not have realized the phone was hearing both the speaker and the sound system and that this would even cause any trouble in the first place.

The right distance probably depends on the chapel. I visited 3 on Sunday. One chapel was like "is this on?". The other made me feel all-powerful. The a spot that works (or has problems) is likely to be different for each chapel.

russellhltn wrote:
I'm missing something. The webcast from the cell phone does both. The problem I experienced is that I parked my tripod in a bad spot for sound and ended up using a custom cable to connect my cell phone to the sound system.

The only reason I figured it out is during the meeting I caught my brain switching it's filtering between the two sound sources. (if that makes sense).

I think if the phone was much closer to the podium, then the direct sound would be strong enough to be usable.

I want to make sure I understand your setup...
You had the cell phone on the tripod, and you had the sound from the sound system plugged into the cell phone?
Did you say that the sound from the sound system AND the cell phone microphone were being broadcast at the same time?

If so, that sounds strange. How could your cell phone mic work when you have an external mic connected to the cell phone?

Or am I misunderstanding your setup?

Thanks!

EarloftheWest wrote:You had the cell phone on the tripod, and you had the sound from the sound system plugged into the cell phone?

Correct. And it worked beautifully. But I had to custom-build the cable. You're not likely to find anything locally.

EarloftheWest wrote:Did you say that the sound from the sound system AND the cell phone microphone were being broadcast at the same time?

The reason I used a cable is early testing showed the sound using just the built-in mic was very poor. Since then, I've determined it was caused by the voice of the person at the podium mixing with the sound from the sound system. Direct and amplified. The human ear can filter it out. A microphone cannot.

Using a cell phone with the built-in mic keeps things very simple, but some care needs to be taken to insure the sound is understandable.

russellhltn wrote: The reason I used a cable is early testing showed the sound using just the built-in mic was very poor. Since then, I've determined it was caused by the voice of the person at the podium mixing with the sound from the sound system. Direct and amplified. The human ear can filter it out. A microphone cannot.

I'm still not quite getting it. My apologies.

If you have the sound system plugged into your cell phone, I would expect that the cell phone would only recognize the sound system as the audio input.

Like when I plug a headset into my cell phone - it disables the microphone on the cell phone and uses the mic on the headset.

It sounds like your cell phone is using both the sound system audio and the microphone on the cell phone. If so, how are you accomplishing that?

Sorry for belaboring this issue.

Thanks!

EarloftheWest wrote:If you have the sound system plugged into your cell phone, I would expect that the cell phone would only recognize the sound system as the audio input.

That is correct.


The question is why did I have to go that route? Why was the sound with just the built-in mic (which is so much less effort) so bad? The answer is the sound arriving directly from the person's mouth, when mixed with the sound arriving from the sound system speaker created (or can create) a really bad hard to understand result.

Believe it or not, you can hear the person directly - even as far back as the second row.

Consequently, some testing needs to be done to make sure a phone that is using the internal mic be located in a place where the sound is at least intelligible if not ideal.

If you can add an external mic or direct connection, by all means do so. But not all wards will have that option available to them immediately.

russellhltn wrote: That is correct.

Thanks for your response that makes sense.

However, to muddy the waters some, with the Larix Broadcaster App, the default settings will use the built-in mic - even if you have an external source plugged in. You have to go into the settings to have it use the "External Mic". As far as I know, it won't use both - but then I haven't explored all the options.

That's one pitfall to watch out for when connecting the device to the sound system.

From the perspective of...
"How do I get audio from the Chapel audio system (the REC OUT jack underneath the Sacrament table) into my computer?"
I had another thought.
I was wondering if line in to USB devices existed.
And I found several.
This one on Amazon for example:
DIGITNOW USB Audio Capture Card Grabber for Vinyl Cassette Tapes to Digital MP3 Converter, Support Mac & Windows 10/8.1/8 / 7 / Vista/XP

These things seem to be used to take audio from tape recorders (and other older recording devices) and let you digitize the recording.
The description says it can accept a line in source.
One reviewer for the above device suggested that it had low latency.
Another reviewer said this: "This is more of an obscure use case but the device also works fine on iOS with an Apple's Lightning to USB3 Camera Adapter."
I could see how this could be your audio device on Zoom and your webcam or camera could be your video source.
Thoughts on something like this?

That could work. Just keep in mind the line out is mono (left channel only). That's fixable with adapters. I'm not too sure how that would interface to a typical phone. But I suspect it takes up the same plug used to power the device - so the phone would have to be on battery power for the whole event. Not a deal killer, but some engineering issues.

The other idea is if you can find a line in to Bluetooth adapter. This would be more for "sending" your stereo rather than connecting your phone to your stereo. Maybe somethign like this. I just did a quick search and that's what I came up with. It's not a recommendation. Still has the mono to stereo issue.

We tried something a bit different with the sound this past Sunday.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, we purchased the following item to attempt to solve our "how do we broadcast audio" problem:
Sescom LN2MIC-ZOOMH4N 3.5mm Line to Microphone Attenuation Cable for HDSLR Cameras

Here's the audio path:
REC OUT jack --> mono to stereo adapter --> Sescom attenuation cable --> mic input on our HDMI capture card.

The feedback from our viewers was that the sound was great. One listener said that it sounded just like they were in the chapel.
The same listener did mention that they had to turn the sound up a bit more than normal on their end.
I was listening on my phone while I was running the equipment and I probably had the sound up pretty high.
(Not sure if there's too much attenuation on the cable.)

I'm not sure if the attenuation cable we bought is the "right" cable for you but it appears to be working for our situation.

In concept, I really like using the sound from the Chapel sound system.

I hooked up another mic from the library to mic the piano. I did some A/B comparison with the mic close to the piano vs just letting the mic at the podium pick up the sound. I don't think I heard much of a difference.
However, I did notice some electrical static during the broadcast when the mic at the piano was turned on.

We're using an HDMI capture card so we have a camcorder hooked up to the capture card to provide the video input. It's nice to be able to zoom and pan, etc. But, it takes a bunch of effort to set things up before each meeting.
Unless you have someone who loves this kind of stuff, I would probably recommend coming off the Church audio into a cell phone with a decent camera and just put the phone on a tripod in front of the podium.
Setup and take down will be faster and less stuff to go wrong.

We're also using Zoom Webinar and I really like the platform.

Good luck!