Will LCR be available to YM quorum advisors and specialist?

With the recent changes I have been released from being a councilor in YM and called to be the quorum advisor. As the councilor in YM I had access to see all the YM in the ward and the ability to send messages to YM and parents through LCR. My access to this information and these abilities is now gone. In the past the quorum presidency has not been able to see a list of all quorum members in LDS tools, only bishopric and YM presidencies. Who has access to this information? I think it is important that all members of the quorum are discussed in presidency meeting. This is difficult if people do not have access to this information. Is access being updated, or is there other council for us?

It can take up to 24 hours for rights to appear after being recorded in a calling.

tech3627 wrote:As the councilor in YM I had access to see all the YM in the ward and the ability to send messages to YM and parents through LCR. My access to this information and these abilities is now gone.

Whether or not you will again receive access, I believe this will provide an opportunity for the counselor in the bishopric who is over your quorum, and who does have access, to rise to the responsibility he has been given as a member of the bishopric.

I was called as a specialist with specific instructions to help with secretarial duties. Is there any way for me to get access to quorum member lists. Without it it makes my calling a lot more difficult. Especially while helping train the Quorum Presidency Secretary.

bullockb3 wrote:I was called as a specialist with specific instructions to help with secretarial duties. Is there any way for me to get access to quorum member lists. Without it it makes my calling a lot more difficult. Especially while helping train the Quorum Presidency Secretary.

We won't know what access YM Specialists will have until the callings appear in 2 January. Based on the information provided on the Leader and Clerk Resources landing page there will be access to "needed functionality". What that is we do not know.

Leader and Clerk Resources wrote:To support the Aaronic Priesthood organization changes announced in General Conference, the ward Young Men organization and those called to the Young Men Presidency are being removed. Those currently called as Advisers will remain in that calling. Those currently called as Assistant Quorum Advisers will become Quorum Specialists. After January 2, 2020, please review the adult leader callings within the Aaronic Priesthood organization and make any necessary updates. If you have already recorded Specialists as custom callings, you will need to delete those entries and record them using the standard Specialist calling. Individuals in custom callings will not have access to needed functionality in Leader and Clerk Resources and Member Tools.

bullockb3 wrote:I was called as a specialist with specific instructions to help with secretarial duties. Is there any way for me to get access to quorum member lists.

The only way to get access is to hold a standard calling that grants access (and wait 24 hours after the calling is recorded). There is no other way.

The access granted to a calling is based on the responsibilities outlined in the Handbook (or in this case, the new directives). While local leaders may extend special assignments, they can't change the access rights.

bullockb3 wrote:Without it it makes my calling a lot more difficult. Especially while helping train the Quorum Presidency Secretary.

The training may have to be "over the shoulder" training while the Secretary uses his login to gain access. We've seen in the past that simply a responsibility to train doesn't grant trainers the same access as the trainees. Only those with responsibilities for individual members are given access. I suspect this is due to legal/privacy issues.

I tried to add the quorum specialists to their official callings now that they're in LCR but ran into a problem - system only allows members of the quorum to be entered as specialist, no adults. According to HB2, adults are to be called as specialists, not youth. Anyone else having this issue?

Another reason for calling specialists is to ensure that at least two adult men are present at quorum meetings and activities when bishopric members attend Young Women and Primary.

Wrog wrote:I tried to add the quorum specialists to their official callings now that they're in LCR but ran into a problem - system only allows members of the quorum to be entered as specialist, no adults. According to HB2, adults are to be called as specialists, not youth.

Did you send feedback for the problem? That can be done at the bottom of the LCR page. I suspect the ICS team had such a short time to make the changes and this may require further development.

It looks like there are some problems with adult leader assignments right now. I just tested and chatted with the lead developer about what I was seeing. He's chasing a different fire, so it's probably going to be morning before too much gets done on it.

I found that there's a generic Aaronic Priesthood Quorums Specialist calling that can be used but the quorum-specific callings are not usable due to this glitch. I submitted feedback about the issue but will use the generic calling until it's fixed.

lajackson wrote:

tech3627 wrote:As the councilor in YM I had access to see all the YM in the ward and the ability to send messages to YM and parents through LCR. My access to this information and these abilities is now gone.

Whether or not you will again receive access, I believe this will provide an opportunity for the counselor in the bishopric who is over your quorum, and who does have access, to rise to the responsibility he has been given as a member of the bishopric.

I hear what you're saying, but seriously... here's how it plays out:

YM Adviser/Specialist --> Bishopric Member: Hey, I notice in tools that I don't even have access to a list of boys in the quorum I'm assigned to. I can see the presidency but not the list of the boys.
Bishopric Member --> YW Adviser/Specialist: Yes you do, just look right here, it's here in mine, have you sync'd your tools lately/you might need to reinstall/maybe it's different on and iphone
YM Adviser/Specialist --> Shakes head and walks away, whatever dude.

Several Weeks Go by

Bishopric member --> Adviser/Specialist: Hey, can you get a list of boys together for assignment X
Adviser/Specialist --> Bishopric member: - Bishop, I don't have access to any list, not on LCR, not in Tools, remember I told you about it
Bishopric member --> Adviser/Specialist: Yes you do, just look.... blah, blah, blah
Adviser/Specialist --> Whatever, creates list, leaves a boy off, doesn't spell names right (because he was born before Utah moms started changing the way names are spelled because of pinterest or whatever)

Months go by

Bishopric member --> ALL YW and YM leaders/specialists/advisers: We've discovered that some of you don't have access to tools, or can't get access to all the youth for various reasons. So we've called a specialist and given them a role in LCR/MLS that has acces to perform get all the data, that person will be making a spreadsheet with all the kids names, birthdates, addresses, phone numbers, etc. and we'll distribute them in an email and save it in google drive.

Adviser/Specialist (also the STS): BANGS HEAD ON WALL


I noticed the change here when the Church released the new website - No YW/YM advisers could see a list of the YW or YM in the quorums/organizations they were assigned to. Nobody believed them for a long time in leadership, because, well, they all have access, why wouldn't everyone else, some of them have had access for 10-15 years now, they don't even think twice about how hard this can be for others that the church has decided to create a line of demarcation. This person gets access this person doesn't, etc... at this point, only the Bishopric has access to info about the YM in each quorum, no other advisers/specialists have that access.

I've logged tickets twice now, the first one seemed to have a large number of accompanying tickets, because condescendingly, there was a little sticky-note reminder on the online org/directory that said, get with your quorum secretary. Good Grief, the AP leaders don't even have a secretary anymore. And the only other solution is to break church policy to provide it to the people that need it. It seems a no-brainer to AT LEAST see the LIST of YM/YW in the quorums/orgs that you've been assigned to. But I'm a broken record here.

Keep it the way it is and Adviser/Specialists will get the idea they are't all that vital to the work, that their concerns are not listened to, that because the YWP and the Bishopric still have the lists, they'll be perpetually confused why Advisers/Specialists don't have it and will assume something is wrong, not that the church does it specifically, and the end result is the data will be all over google which we've been trying to avoid in the first place.

And just to be clear, I've been a HUGE advocate of rights/responsiblilies/roles and assignments in MLS/LCR - I danced a jig when Stake Leaders were told to stop trying to micro-manage ward leaders with lists, etc, and to start being SME to the LEADERS, not a 2nd leader to those already led at the ward level, I loved that. I loved that we've been able to use a pretty decent A/A/A model based on callings, I really have, this, however, this --> MAKES NO SENSE in that world. YM Advisers/Specialists are really supposed to rely on Bishopric members to be the 'administrators' of the AP quorums, they have an entire administrative staff that covers most of those things for them already. Why not just release ExecSec/Clerks and assign that to the Bishoprics to 'rise to their responsibility'?

Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody see... what I see? - John Adams

And just for funzies, I explained to the 2nd Counselor in the Bishopric this morning that I didn't have access to pull a list of boys online or in Tools and asked if he could send me one.

He sent me a link to a report on LCR.

Maybe I am not following all of the discussion here but as clerk, I am getting similar questions/comments from newly called YM Advisers and Specialists. We have called multiple Advisers and Specialists but none of them have any access into the quorums to which they have been called in terms of seeing a quorum member list, etc. It doesn't look like any access for these callings have been granted yet. Is that correct? Looking at the Access Table, 'Young Mens Presidency' still exists. I am assuming this needs to be removed and specific accesses will need to be granted for the Advisers and Specialists?

Any ideas as to when this will be done?

steele7 wrote:Any ideas as to when this will be done?

It will be done when it's done. We haven't heard what's happening.

It will be done when it's done. We haven't heard what's happening.

Awesome - such great support. Nice. Really thought through this one. Missed requirement? Seems like

Please keep in mind who the real "customer" is. It's not the membership or the leadership the church is trying to satisfy.

I don't know what's going on. It would be nice to know, but I also know from experience that we don't always get that.

In a year's time, this won't matter.

steele7 wrote:Awesome - such great support. Nice. Really thought through this one. Missed requirement? Seems like

Also keep in mind that this is a user-to-use discussion forum, and the developers rarely see things that take place here. We share the joy, the surprises, and the experiences here just as everyone else does.

While the whole world watches and smiles.

lajackson wrote:Also keep in mind that this is a user-to-use discussion forum, and the developers rarely see things that take place here. We share the joy, the surprises, and the experiences here just as everyone else does.

At the very least, we know we're not alone or doing something wrong. (or is it misery likes company?)

johnshaw wrote: YM Adviser/Specialist --> Bishopric Member: Hey, I notice in tools that I don't even have access to a list of boys in the quorum I'm assigned to. I can see the presidency but not the list of the boys.
Bishopric Member --> YW Adviser/Specialist: Yes you do, just look right here, it's here in mine, have you sync'd your tools lately/you might need to reinstall/maybe it's different on and iphone
YM Adviser/Specialist --> Shakes head and walks away, whatever dude.

This scenario (or very near it) is playing out in my ward today.

And literally, after explaining that there are currently NO YM callings with any access whatsoever...

johnshaw wrote: Adviser/Specialist (also the STS): BANGS HEAD ON WALL

In my ward, a Specialist's wife happens to be the Primary Secretary. She can see all primary children. He can't see his quorum membership. At all.

One difference is that my bishopric is asking me and my membership clerk why it can't be fixed, or if we can add a calling so specialists can see them, etc. "You're a computer guy, can't you just fix it?"

The policy or exactness of the handbook isn't relevant to the discussion from their view -- the young men in the quorum are, and they are not being served. From the bishopric's point of view, the advisors they call and delegate to assist them with the logistics of multiple large quorums need to know who their members are and how to contact them at the very least.

Specialist access to up-to-date information in the Member Tools app is better than PDFs being sent around in Google drive, e-mail, or group texts, which is what ends up happening. And with that, you've now completely lost access controls. Most members won't consider security roles or controls or PII or breach fallout; the system just doesn't help them, so they work around it however they can.

When the letter of the law looks like a roadblock to accomplishing the work of a calling, members will find a way around it and feel like righteous champions of the spirit of the law while doing so.

steavis wrote:"You're a computer guy, can't you just fix it?"

You have to tell him you lack the keys and authority to fix it.

He needs to take the issue up with the stake president to take to his presiding authority.

russellhltn wrote:

steavis wrote:"You're a computer guy, can't you just fix it?"

You have to tell him you lack the keys and authority to fix it.

He needs to take the issue up with the stake president to take to his presiding authority.

Are you being serious? Lack the keys and authority to fix it? Since when do keys and authority come into play when talking about functionality related to the church's website that should be available to those with callings and its not available to them? And what the crap is the Stake President and/or Area Authority going to do about it. They won't have a clue.

And to say this won't matter in a year? Maybe not, but it certainly matters now when people don't have the tools they need because the church IT department messed up. This needs to be fixed.

The Church IT department did not mess up. Software requirements and priorities are set by the Church presiding councils. If enough stake presidents and area coordinating councils report this as a problem to the Brethren, it will become a requirement and a priority. This forum is not used for that purpose.

steele7 wrote:Are you being serious? Lack the keys and authority to fix it? Since when do keys and authority come into play when talking about functionality related to the church's website that should be available to those with callings and its not available to them? And what the crap is the Stake President and/or Area Authority going to do about it. They won't have a clue.

And to say this won't matter in a year? Maybe not, but it certainly matters now when people don't have the tools they need because the church IT department messed up. This needs to be fixed.

This might be a good time to review the forum code of conduct.

steele7 wrote:Are you being serious? Lack the keys and authority to fix it? Since when do keys and authority come into play when talking about functionality related to the church's website that should be available to those with callings and its not available to them?

Do you have the passwords and authority to access the church website to make the changes your leaders are asking of you?

What I was suggesting is to communicate back to your leaders that the situation is out of your hands and that as a "computer guy" you don't have the ability (at least not legally) to "just fix it".

steele7 wrote:And what the crap is the Stake President and/or Area Authority going to do about it. They won't have a clue.

They should know how to escalate an issue to their presiding authority.

Something deeper may be at play here. The term "adviser" suggests that they will be doing just that - advising the quorum - not leading/running it. As such, they would be responsible for training the quorum leaders and not for the individual members. From what I've observed, responsibility for individual members seems to be the key to getting access to member's personal information. That may be a "law of the land" thing.

russellhltn wrote:Something deeper may be at play here. The term "adviser" suggests that they will be doing just that - advising the [quorum]- not leading/running it. As such, they would be responsible for training the quorum leaders and not for the individual members. From what I've observed, responsibility for individual members seems to be the key to getting access to member's personal information. That may be a "law of the land" thing.

Russell, I think that is a very pertinent and insightful comment. It may very well be that quorum advisers are only meant to advise the leaders of the Priest, Teacher, and Deacon quorums, and not the members of those quorums. The advisers simply teach the quorum presidencies how to be leaders. If that is true, then it is inappropriate for the bishop or his counselors to expect the quorum advisers to do anything more than that.

Not just that, but our friendly developers have been oddly silent about this. They're normally very forthcoming about technical problems.

russellhltn wrote:Not just that, but our friendly developers have been oddly silent about this. They're normally very forthcoming about technical problems.

But this is not a technical problem. This is a policy decision that is probably in the midst of discussion and change. While those in callings all believe they need the information, who really needs it?

The bishopric: Probably yes. They preside.
The advisors: Are they primarily responsible for the members of their quorums and classes, or are they advisors to the youth quorum and class presidencies?
The youth presidencies: Yes. But there are legal and other reasons that make such access problematic.

I believe that once the decision of access is made, it is probably a simple matter of updating an access table inside the software.

lajackson beat me to it, but a thought came to me this afternoon, if we are trying to encourage the Young Men to step up and lead, would it not be more useful to enable the quorum presidencies to access their quorum rosters before advisers and specialists who are there to mentor? I'm not sure of the legal or policy implications.

russellhltn wrote:Not just that, but our friendly developers have been oddly silent about this. They're normally very forthcoming about technical problems.

There weren't any technical problems. As for whether there has been a policy change relative to advisers (but not specialists), I will leave that to interested users to discover.

I am the Ward Executive Secretary and I've been approached by our ward's Teachers Quorum Adviser (former 1st counselor of the Young Men Presidency) on the first Sunday of this year asking why he no longer has access on the IOS Tools App to view the Teachers Quorum Members. His calling has been updated a few weeks ago from First Counselor in the Young Men Presidency to Teachers Quorum Adviser. He has the most recent updated IOS version and Sync. Earlier this week we closed his calling and resubmitted it through LCR and today (3 days latter) he still is unable to see the list of members in the Teachers Quorum.

We understand the Priesthood Quorum Advisers are assigned to advise the leaders of the Priest, Teacher, and Deacon quorums, and not the members of those quorums. So is the directive in this matter to advise the advisers to simply teach the quorum presidencies how to be leaders? We want to to first verify the accuracy of this if this is how it is intended to be. It honestly makes sense, if that is indeed the plan.

jeramy.doyle wrote:We understand the Priesthood Quorum Advisers are assigned to advise the leaders of the Priest, Teacher, and Deacon quorums, and not the members of those quorums. So is the directive in this matter to advise the advisers to simply teach the quorum presidencies how to be leaders? We want to to first verify the accuracy of this if this is how it is intended to be. It honestly makes sense, if that is indeed the plan.

There have been clues here at the Forum that this matter is under consideration by the decision makers involved. I have seen no directive. I only know that advisers do not have access currently.

I expect that if there are to be any changes, they will happen soon (in the next month or so). In the meantime, our advisers have been asked to advise quorum leaders and support the bishopric in their responsibilities, much as they did before we had these things called computers. Clerks are also able to provide lists where needed.

Advisers appear in the Access Table. Whether the associated rights are granted or working, I have not verified.

According to the LCR Access Table advisers (but not specialists) should now have access to certain information in LCR (although I haven't seen this in action myself). The access table doesn't say specifically which members a calling has access to but I'm assuming since it says they have access to the member list and attendance rolls that they can see the list of youth in their classes.

It's quite possible that access in Member Tools will take a while longer but if access is available in LCR then it's probably coming to Member Tools. But in the mean time hopefully they can use LCR.