Tech Forum Archive

Why roll out a new system with no training

21 postsstarted by kenmcalister 4,970 viewsoriginal topic

kenmcalister
New Member
#1
If anyone from the church headquarters reads these forums I have a question. And only please respond to the thread if you are from there.
I am a stake financial clerk and have not gotten any prior information about the changes that have taken place in MLS and requiring a now electronic approval of written checks. This seams to be a systemic problem in the roll out of changes to the finance section of MLS through the years. This is now a drastic change to the procedures and more will be coming and the clerks in the wards are asking all kinds of questions that I have no answers for. My questions are noted.
1. When will we start to get formal notification of changes that will be taking place and when the date of implementation will be switched?
2. When will we start to get formal tanning to the changes so we do not have to make it up as we go along?
3. When will we get notification to questions that magically change during the audits? It would be nice to get them throughout the year when they do change so that we can be in compliance and not get an audit exception during the audit.

It would be nice to get notifications as all of our emails are on file and it would be easy to send out an email to all of us when changes are going to be taken place so we can train the ward clerks and know for ourselves how to deal with the problems that arise from the changes as they affect all of us.
scgallafent
Church Employee
#2
kenmcalister wrote:1. When will we start to get formal notification of changes that will be taking place and when the date of implementation will be switched?
Leaders in affected units were notified by email when the online reimbursement system was activated for their area. The application was rolled out over the course of several weeks and leaders in each area were notified as their area was activated. I got the email when Utah was activated. (I am currently a counselor in a bishopric.)
kenmcalister wrote:2. When will we start to get formal tanning to the changes so we do not have to make it up as we go along?
The email that went to leaders of activated units referred to a notice posted in the Official Communication Library at https://letters.churchofjesuschrist,org/. That notice included links to the Help Center. One of those links provides general instructions for members using the online donation system. Those instructions include a short video on how to add a reimbursement account in the online donations system. The other link provides instructions specifically for leaders and clerks using the online system for reimbursements.

If you printed the instructions that were referred to in the online notice, you would end up with eight printed pages of instructions for members using the online donation system and three printed pages of instructions for leaders entering expenses using the online system. There is also a video showing members how to add a reimbursement account. The instructions for leaders include step-by-step instructions for entering expenses, approving expenses without attached electronic receipts, approving expenses with attached electronic receipts, and expense review by the bishop or stake president.

Have you reviewed this training material?
kenmcalister wrote:3. When will we get notification to questions that magically change during the audits? It would be nice to get them throughout the year when they do change so that we can be in compliance and not get an audit exception during the audit.
I'm not involved with the Church audit department except when their development team interacts with my development team. If you feel like the Church needs to provide notice of changes in audit questions, your best approach would be to discuss this with your stake audit committee chairman and ask him to get that request to the audit department.

I have been both the auditor or audited party for audits inside and outside [501(c)(3)] the Church. I've never had ongoing advance notification of audit changes. I just get the audit form and work through it.
kenmcalister
New Member
#3
Leaders in affected units were notified by email when the online reimbursement system was activated for their area. The application was rolled out over the course of several weeks and leaders in each area were notified as their area was activated. I got the email when Utah was activated. (I am currently a counselor in a bishopric.)
There was no notification of changes in our area (Arizona)
Have you reviewed this training material?
How can I review this material if I never got the notification that it was even happening?
After doing much searching I found the document you were trying to link to. Your link does not work. In that document still vague on actual steps to do it correct for audit purposes.
This is what I found after digging but still leaves un answered questions.
LCR Procedures

Depending on your location, your procedures for recording expenses may vary slightly from the following guidelines. If you have questions, contact your administrative office.
Enter Expenses

On the LCR menu bar, click Finance, then Expenses.
On the Enter Expenses tab, select the appropriate payment method.
Note: The option to select a payment method may not be present if your unit has only one payment method. The default payment method for most areas will be EFT.
Enter the reference number if one is not automatically provided.
In the Date field, enter the date of the expense.
Enter the name of the payee, or expand the Payee field and find the desired payee in the list. If the payee is not in the list, you may need to click the Include out of unit box or add the person as a new payee by clicking the Add Payee button and completing the payee information.
Note: If EFT payments are available in your unit, and if the payee is a Church member whose bank account information is not available, instruct the payee to add the information to the Expense Reimbursement Account section on ChurchofJesusChrist.org/donations/#/settings after signing in to his or her LDS Account.
In the Purpose field, enter the purpose of the expense.
To choose the category for which the payment is being made, expand the Category field and select the category from the list. If the desired category is not in the list, go to MLS to add the new category.
Note: If you are in an area where the Church is required to pay sales or other taxes on purchases, the first category will be the tax category.
In the Amount field, enter the amount of the expense.
Note: If you are in an area where the Church is required to pay sales or other taxes on purchases, the amount will be the total amount minus the tax amount.
If the payment is for more than one category, click Add Category. Then repeat step 7.
For a fast-offering expense, in the Select Recipient field, enter the name of the member receiving aid. If the recipient is not in the list, you may need to click the Include out of unit box or add the person as a new recipient by clicking the Add Recipient button and completing the recipient information.
LCR allows receipts to be electronically uploaded. To attach a receipt, click Choose file or drag and drop the receipt in the designated area only.
After clicking the Review Upload button to view the receipt, click Save.
Note: Each uploaded receipt must be reviewed before the expense can be saved.

Approve Expenses

Two authorized users approve each expense. Authorized users include the following:

This still leaves lots of un answered questions on policy.
1. can a member just email me a picture of the receipt that I can attach?
2. do I have to print the receipt and keep a paper copy of it?
3. Does the member not have to fill out a request form now and just email me the receipts since I can just attach them electronically and when the bishop approves the expense electronically he can see the receipts?
4. Do I not have to keep any paper documents for reimbursements as long as they are all stored electronically and attached to the record in LCR

There needs to be clear documentation on what is expected so we know what is required for the audits. Still too many questions to have rolled out a new system with NO real training or clear requirements.
I have been both the auditor or audited party for audits inside and outside [501(c)(3)] the Church. I've never had ongoing advance notification of audit changes. I just get the audit form and work through it.
My point exactly. We never get notification of changes. How can we be dinged during an audit for something we did not know there was a change. This is what I am talking about with no communication from SLC when changes are being made. They have my email and know I am a stake financial clerk. Why not just send me the information. Sometimes I get so frustrated as a simple communication to the people that have to deal with these things would be nice.
drepouille
Senior Member
#4
My stake audit committee trains auditors on changes to audit procedures. And last year, we even held a special training for bishoprics and clerks to prepare for the upcoming audit cycle. Unfortunately, those who needed the training the most did not attend the training.

Having said that, I will repeat my prediction that the next two audits will be very interesting indeed. I don't think auditors who are not members of bishoprics will know anything about the new system, unless they receive training prior to the mid-year audit.
Dana Repouille, Plattsmouth, Nebraska
kenmcalister
New Member
#5
drepouille wrote:My stake audit committee trains auditors on changes to audit procedures. And last year, we even held a special training for bishoprics and clerks to prepare for the upcoming audit cycle. Unfortunately, those who needed the training the most did not attend the training.

Having said that, I will repeat my prediction that the next two audits will be very interesting indeed. I don't think auditors who are not members of bishoprics will know anything about the new system, unless they receive training prior to the mid-year audit.
Yes I am going to go rogue this audit cycle and we are going to get hit with many audit exceptions this cycle because I am going to instruct the clerks to go 100% electronic if possible and develop my own process flow, then if the process is not correct that we are doing we are going to blame SLC for the audit finding with no clear direction on the new system they rolled out. Very frustrating.
jonesrk
Church Employee
#6
kenmcalister wrote: There was no notification of changes in our area (Arizona)
The letter was to '... the following leaders of activated units in the United States ... Bishops and Branch Presidents; Stake and Ward Councils', so you may not have directly received it. I'm not sure if finance clerks have rights to the online letters. Either way your stake president and stake clerk should have gotten the letter.

The link from the letter requires you to sign in. I hope that finance clerks can see it.

Edit: My email notification showed up about two weeks after the letter date. I believe that was about the time my stake was activated in their system.
scgallafent
Church Employee
#7
kenmcalister wrote:1. can a member just email me a picture of the receipt that I can attach?
2. do I have to print the receipt and keep a paper copy of it?
3. Does the member not have to fill out a request form now and just email me the receipts since I can just attach them electronically and when the bishop approves the expense electronically he can see the receipts?
4. Do I not have to keep any paper documents for reimbursements as long as they are all stored electronically and attached to the record in LCR
From the Help Center article referenced earlier: "A member requesting reimbursement provides proper documentation with an Expense Request form and attaches receipts or invoices with the amount and date of the purchase. These forms and receipts can be either electronic (a picture or scan) or paper."

That explicitly says that receipts can be a picture or scan. The page also documents two different workflows, one for expenses with electronically attached receipts and one for expenses without electronically attached receipts, which implies to me that electronic documentation stands on its own.

We don't use a formal request form -- by the time the email gets to the ward clerk, we have everything that would be on a request form in the email. We also don't store any paper receipts if they are electronically stored with the expense record. For each expense tested in the audit, the clerk can produce the documentation from electronic records if receipts are electronically attached and from paper records for expenses without electronic documentation.

We don't go to the effort to scan things unnecessarily. If the bishop hands us an invoice to be paid, we record the expense without attaching a receipt and file the paper. On the other hand, if I'm processing finances with the clerk and have a paper receipt for myself or my wife, I scan it so that he can process it with attached receipts. That avoids having to hunt down a second approver to be in the room when he enters it.

I don't know why you need to "go rogue." You have spent enough time as a clerk that you should be able to develop and follow a reasonable procedure that you believe satisfies audit requirements.

Our ward has been through two finance audits using EFTs and hasn't had any issues. (For those trying to do the math, our first EFT expense was processed on 11 Mar 2018.) I can't speak for how things will go with your stake audit committee.
eblood66
Senior Member
#8
scgallafent wrote:Our ward has been through two finance audits using EFTs and hasn't had any issues. (For those trying to do the math, our first EFT expense was processed on 11 Mar 2018.)
How did you handle proof of the bishops approval in the audit for all electronic transactions? I've had two audits with EFTs as well and as far as we could tell in our audits, the bishop's electronic approvals didn't show up in the audit system. So far I've keep paper copies for all transactions even if I attached electronic ones and just used those signatures in the audit. Did you scan a bishops signature or attach other proof of approval, pull up the bishops approval list in LCR or is there something that we didn't see?
scgallafent
Church Employee
#9
eblood66 wrote:How did you handle proof of the bishops approval in the audit for all electronic transactions? I've had two audits with EFTs as well and as far as we could tell in our audits, the bishop's electronic approvals didn't show up in the audit system.
It shows up in LCR.
eft-leader-approval.png
eft-leader-approval.png (6.78 KiB) Viewed 2692 times
eblood66
Senior Member
#10
scgallafent wrote:
eblood66 wrote:How did you handle proof of the bishops approval in the audit for all electronic transactions? I've had two audits with EFTs as well and as far as we could tell in our audits, the bishop's electronic approvals didn't show up in the audit system.
It shows up in LCR.
eft-leader-approval.png
Last I heard you couldn't have two different people logged into LCR and the audit tool in the same browser (because of the single sign on). Is that no longer the case or did you use different computers or different browsers?
scgallafent
Church Employee
#11
Different browsers solves that. You can run separate browser or it typically works to run one system in a regular window and one in a private/incognito window.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#12
eblood66 wrote:Last I heard you couldn't have two different people logged into LCR and the audit tool in the same browser (because of the single sign on). Is that no longer the case or did you use different computers or different browsers?
There may be a simpler answer, but it's possible in Chrome by using different Chrome user profiles.

In Chrome, click profile (second icon from right in toolbar) > Manage People > Add person

Both "people" have have browser windows open but the two windows don't "talk" to each other.

As part of the setup, I'd add the Chrome shortcut to the desktop with a unique icon so you can identify them. That way, a click on on that icon launches the browser as that "user".

I always log into my email as a different "person" to avoid any malicious scripts.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
drepouille
Senior Member
#13
The easiest way by far to perform an audit is to use two computers. Failing that, you can use two Windows profiles on the clerk computer.

By the way, just for fun, I scanned in all the receipts for all the expenses since the beginning of the year last night. So the auditor can review all those receipts before he comes to the meetinghouse. He just won't see the bishop's and clerk's signatures on the expense reports and financial statements until he comes for the audit.
Dana Repouille, Plattsmouth, Nebraska
kenmcalister
New Member
#14
scgallafent wrote:
We don't go to the effort to scan things unnecessarily. If the bishop hands us an invoice to be paid, we record the expense without attaching a receipt and file the paper. On the other hand, if I'm processing finances with the clerk and have a paper receipt for myself or my wife, I scan it so that he can process it with attached receipts. That avoids having to hunt down a second approver to be in the room when he enters it.
Here is where the discrepancy is because there is no formal spelled out process. I called SLC yesterday and asked the question "If I scan all documentation and attach electronically, do l have to still keep and file the paper copies for audit purposes and do I still need a request form to be filled out?' She did not know the answer and put me on hold for like 10 min. After coming back she told me yes you need to keep and file the paper in case something happens to the electronic version. So what you think is correct and what SLC says is correct is two different things. This is why I say there is no process, it is people making it up as they go along. I am going to go rogue because I am not going to do what she told me to do, to also file paper backups. This is just to prove the point that what you say is OK to do it and what SLC says to do are two different things. Again this all needs to be spelled out by SLC so we all do them the same and we know what to expect during the audit and were not directing other clerks to do something that is not correct.

So which is it? Do we have to keep the paper copies or not if they are scanned and attached? According to SLC yes you do.
drepouille
Senior Member
#15
The scanned receipts that our Primary president emailed to me last week were mostly readable, except some handwritten notes on those receipts are not visible on the scanned images. Therefore, I plan to keep the paper receipts for just such a scenario. This is similar to the digitized films of vital records and census records. There are times when the digital image is not readable, and it would be nice if we could also examine the original paper document.

Keeping the paper originals in our file protects us from either operator error or technical glitches while scanning them.
Dana Repouille, Plattsmouth, Nebraska
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#16
Depending on how you file the paper, you might want to think about simplifying it.

When I was a ward clerk for a small singles ward, I just stapled everything for one check together and stuck it into a folder for the month in check number order. Simple, fast, and I could find things if I needed them. It didn't take up much space.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
davesudweeks
Senior Member
#17
kenmcalister wrote:Here is where the discrepancy is because there is no formal spelled out process. I called SLC yesterday and asked the question "If I scan all documentation and attach electronically, do l have to still keep and file the paper copies for audit purposes and do I still need a request form to be filled out?' She did not know the answer and put me on hold for like 10 min. After coming back she told me yes you need to keep and file the paper in case something happens to the electronic version. So what you think is correct and what SLC says is correct is two different things. This is why I say there is no process, it is people making it up as they go along. I am going to go rogue because I am not going to do what she told me to do, to also file paper backups. This is just to prove the point that what you say is OK to do it and what SLC says to do are two different things. Again this all needs to be spelled out by SLC so we all do them the same and we know what to expect during the audit and were not directing other clerks to do something that is not correct.

So which is it? Do we have to keep the paper copies or not if they are scanned and attached? According to SLC yes you do.
I believe this is akin to the instruction from the brethren that "local adaptation" may be required. A process that works in Salt Lake City may not work in Oklahoma. A process that works in Oklahoma may not work in Italy, etc. The church is unable to do a one-size-fits-all approach, even within the confines of the continental USA.

I am a Quality Engineer by profession where the goal is always to identify the best process and everyone follow it. If we find a better process, we switch. This is not the same in the gospel where we are all working through the various situations we are all in. I envy those who have a stake clerk who takes an active role in training and assistance - I have never experienced that in many years as a ward clerk. We have a great stake clerk, but training the wards is not his long suit so I deal with it and do my best. The last time we met, I trained him more than he trained me, but that is OK as well.

For our ward, we are not (at this point) digitizing anything unless we need to. We are also not printing anything that is already digital. We are trying to work through the processes as best as we can and we hope we don't have any audit exceptions, but if we do we will deal with them as needed. I don't get hung up if there is an audit exception as long is the cause is human error because I haven't met anyone personally yet who has not made a human error. We don't know how our next audit will come out so that will be an interesting learning experience.

The Gospel is perfect, the people in the church are not. I try to be as patient with their shortcomings as I hope they will be with mine (I have plenty).
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#18
davesudweeks wrote:I don't get hung up if there is an audit exception as long is the cause is human error
I agree. It's not like anyone is going to get fired or the ward penalized.

Given the change, a higher than normal number of exceptions is to be expected while everyone is learning. In fact, I'd suggest that the harder you work to make exceptions go away, the more likely the powers-that-be will consider the roll out (including the training) a success.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
scgallafent
Church Employee
#19
kenmcalister wrote:So which is it? Do we have to keep the paper copies or not if they are scanned and attached? According to SLC yes you do.
Our ward doesn't keep paper copies of scanned receipts if they are successfully attached to the expense. Nor do any other wards in our stake.

You're welcome to visit with your stake president and stake audit chairman and decide what process they would like you to follow. The stake president is ultimately responsible for stake records. See Handbook 1, 13.3.1 and 14.2.1.

The IT manager responsible for development of the system will follow up to see what instructions are coming from the GSC.
kenmcalister
New Member
#20
I did my first EFT today and there were no notifications sent to any of the stake presidency nor clerk to approve the expense. We waited all day to see if it would come through and it did not. When there is a paper check written we will all get a notification that there is one pending a couple of days latter. How log does it take for the email notifications to be triggered with doing an EFT?
drepouille
Senior Member
#21
"Transaction to be Approved" email messages are sent to the three members of my bishopric, the ward clerk (me), and my assistant clerk for finance.

We have received three of these messages so far, usually the same day each expense is created. However, the messages are not sent immediately. The messages have been sent at the top of the hour, within one hour of the creation of the expense. Last Wednesday at 8:00 PM, Sunday at Noon, and Monday at 5:00 PM.
Dana Repouille, Plattsmouth, Nebraska