HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

I remember reading several forum posts asking what the Church is doing to distribute HD video in new meetinghouses. I found some info here http://aec.ldschurch.org/aec/ on the "What's New" link. If you drill down you find the answer on the last page of this PDF file http://aec.ldschurch.org/aec/standard_p ... _6_1_15_17

I've been able to get a solid 1080i 59.94 over the existing RG59 coax, running nearly the length of the building.

Ours is a 'Legacy' Stake Center, with the library in the back, next to the Relief Society room. From the satellite rack, three RG59 cables travel together ending first - in the chapel overflow, second - at the foot of the rostrum, and third - 3 rows from the front in the floor. At this past Stake Conference, I had two Sony HDR-SR11 camcorders (older consumer cameras) which spit out 1080i 59.94 via HDMI. They were connected to the terminations in the overflow and the foot of the chapel. I used cheap Monoprice HDMI to SDI adapters and was able to mix these two camera feeds into my computer running Vmix. The third cable (terminating at the foot of the rostrum) carried the HD video mix to the TV placed in front of my Stake President. The rest of the building was down-converted to 480p and distributed over the installed system. I'm fairly confident, I'll be able to send an HD signal to the Primary and Relief Society rooms, also using the existing cable and Monoprice SDI to HDMI converters. The gym should be easy to convert as well, save for the lack of HD projectors. Monoprice has an SDI to VGA adaptor, but I'm worried about latency in the conversion.

Before I took everything down, I tested the HD signal in the chapel. From my computer in the library, through Vmix, I streamed an HD session of General Conference and directed the 1080i output to the foot of the rostrum. I separated the audio and sent it through the building system to play in the chapel. If I focused really hard and looked closely, I could detect a slight delay in the video, with respect to the audio, but otherwise, it looked fine. I had tried to replace the existing cable with good 3G SDI cable, but I couldn't get it to budge. I should be able to have everyone in HD by our Stake Conference in the fall.

If you limit the SDI video to 1080i you should be able to go 150-300ft over the existing RG59/RG6 coax in the bldgs, and as far as 250-500ft using expensive coax made for SDI. With 1080P you must use good quality SDI coax for anything over about 50ft.

We have been doing the same as you for several conferences now in both our transmitting bldg and all receiving bldgs. We learned that successfully running SDI/1080i over existing coax has a lot to do with the F-style-feedthough connectors (used on existing wallplates) and the F to BNC adapters that you have to use. Most F connectors and adapters are not designed for use with a 1.5gbps signal rate. We had to change ALL the F-style feedthrough connectors on all the wallplates to get dropout-free operation. The connectors are available at Lowes/HomeDepot/Amazon and are designed specifically for satellite (higher frequency) receiver installations. Also, instead of using F to BNC adapters on the patch cable that connects to the SDItoHDMI unit, we would simply build our own cables with F connector on one end and BNC on the other.

One interesting thing we determined was that power for the MonoPrice SDItoHDMI units can be obtained from the USB port that is on most TVs and projectors - so there is no need for a wallwart-style PS! Just permanently attach the SDItoHDMI unit to the TV/projector and plug power cable into the TV/projector! You can also power the units from any USB BatteryPack - which is great when using it with a camcorder.

The prices at MonoPrice are outstanding right now ($15), 50% off.

I had thought about re-terminating everything to BNC. However, given the fact that it still works with F/BNC adapters I think it best to leave things as is. I make sure the building is completely back to its original configuration. In my 'General Conference' test, I did try 1080P, but it didn't work so well. It would work for awhile, but periods of pixelation and frame loss would occur. I would have been content to leave it at 720P, but the consumer camcorders I'm using don't output at that resolution. I figure it better to keep everything at the same resolution and refresh rate to eliminate latency stemming from unnecessary conversion, therefore I keep everything at 1080i 59.94 / SMPTE A. Once I get everything on SDI converters, I'll use our Decimator MD-HX as the DA, and finally be free of that ancient Blonder Tongue modulator.

I've discovered that at each termination point, lies a splitter/tap three-way combo behind the plates. The primary room will have THIS, with the HDMI port going to the local TV, and the loop-through port going to what I believe is the line leading to the Relief Society room. The series ends in the RS room, wherein I'll use another of the same. I realize there is a cheaper version that doesn't have the loop-through port, but I want to keep it all the same. I'm not sure about the gym because there are three in the series, gym left, gym right and the Young Women's room. No better way to find out than to spin it up and give it a try.

We also considered re-terminating everything to BNC, but didn't for the same reasons you mentioned. We limited our use of HD-SDI over coax to just the chapel projector/monitors. We did not try to run HD-SDI to perimeter rooms & gym because there wasn't enough improvement in picture quality (on 32/47" TVs) to warrant the cost/setup/technical knowledge needed - especially since we do it in all 4 bldgs.

I've pulled out my cultural hall pieces and found the same splitter/tap three-way combo's behind them.

johnshaw wrote:I've pulled out my cultural hall pieces and found the same splitter/tap three-way combo's behind them.

I'm pretty sure that's a common way to distribute a signal. Pump in a high signal level at the head end and at each tap, there's an attenuator that drops it to a "normal" level. The amount of attenuation is calculated based on how much is lost in the cable. Taps near the amp will have a lot of attenuation while the ones near the end will only have a little.

Works great for one-way RF and minimizes the labor of running the cable. Doesn't work so well for other uses.

I had my own little part doing audio/video support for a temple open house. There are a TON of these in every temple, usually hidden behind pictures to support the Temple Dedication and putting people in every room to view the dedication. Just a fun FYI...

Since SDI equipment is pretty expensive, we tried a different approach to video distribution throughout a "legacy" building. (Our stake center dates to 1974). We used these units: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0107 ... UTF8&psc=1.

These do a very nice job of 1080P/30 throughout the building.

They relay an incoming HDMI signal over existing coax on one of 99 selectable channels. Multiple receivers work great with just one transmitter. We're using these now for overflow areas for stake conference piggybacking off the webcast to other sites, and satellite projection in the chapel. Interestingly, the satellite receiver only gives us SD for the chapel, but if we pull the signal from the HDMI port we get 720P. Using this in the chapel is MUCH better than the SD, plus it allows us to remove the antiquated SD modulators from equipment rack.

randysteck wrote: We used these units: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0107 ... UTF8&psc=1.

Nice. Any noticeable delay?

randysteck wrote:Since SDI equipment is pretty expensive...

Yes, it can be, but if you just need 1080p, SDI converters really aren't that bad. I just picked up a set of BlackMagic Design HDMI to SDI and SDI to HDMI converters for $59 each. They are around $15 cheaper if ordered without the 5V 2A micro-USB power supply (the same one used on many Android phones), if you happen to already have one laying around. A USB cable plugged into a notebook PC would work also.

Just tried them last night by converting an HD camera's 1080i output to SDI and feeding it into the RCA Video-IN jack in the back of our chapel. In the equipment rack, I took the signal from the coax and converted it back to HDMI, then plugged it into one of the building's TV sets on a cart. If you looked close, there was a slight degradation in the video quality, but from 4' away the picture looked great. I'd call it a successful test of something I might use for our next stake conference.

Yes, this is a far cry from HD distribution through the building, but not bad for a few baby steps first.

I have gotten better results (empirically speaking) from my Monoprice converters, then my BlackMagic. I also try to keep everything 720P, including and especially source computers and cameras. I use our Decimator Design MD HX to ensure 720P is emanating from the various sources. It's all about latency, and every single conversion or manipulation of any kind introduces a few 10ths of a second more. I haven't been able to completely eliminate latency, but we're getting it further dialed down at each event. I'll probably work to use local audio (as opposed to building audio) in the Primary and RS rooms in the future, that will eliminate any perceived latency. The Young Women's room uses audio from the TV anyway, so perceived latency isn't an issue there. I'm just down to projectors in the gym. SDI projectors are out of the question, so I'll just have to find HDMI projectors to shave 10ths off the conversion from HDMI to VGA. Currently, our projectors in the gym are being fed by the encoded signal (channel 6), that needs a converter to downgrade from SDI to HDMI, then another converter from HDMI to CVBS, then through the encoder which home-runs to the first tap. From the tap to the VCR (channel 6), CVBS to an old Sony Projector. The other end of the tap runs to the other side of the gym, where there's another VCR/Projector. I think by eliminating all those conversion/encoding/decoding steps will drastically improve latency in the gym.

I'll use the Decimator MD HX initially to ensure 720P, then use it as the DA (distribution amplifier) to feed the building. I was using 1080i, but 720P just works smoother.

Hagothsen wrote:I have gotten better results (empirically speaking) from my Monoprice converters, then my BlackMagic.

Interesting. I'll have to give them a try. I like that they're currently on sale too!

Hagothsen wrote:I also try to keep everything 720P, including and especially source computers and cameras.

Not much choice for me as the stake owns the Panasonic consumer video camera we use and it only has 1080i output. However, the BlackMagic Intensity Pro capture cards and Wirecast do a good job of converting on-the-fly and have a similar lag (a few frames) compared to receiving a native 720p input.

Hagothsen wrote:It's all about latency...

I'm in total agreement here.

Hagothsen wrote:I'm just down to projectors in the gym. SDI projectors are out of the question, so I'll just have to find HDMI projectors to shave 10ths off the conversion from HDMI to VGA. Currently, our projectors in the gym are being fed by the encoded signal (channel 6), that needs a converter to downgrade from SDI to HDMI, then another converter from HDMI to CVBS, then through the encoder which home-runs to the first tap. From the tap to the VCR (channel 6), CVBS to an old Sony Projector. The other end of the tap runs to the other side of the gym, where there's another VCR/Projector. I think by eliminating all those conversion/encoding/decoding steps will drastically improve latency in the gym.

If anything, you can maintain a higher signal quality without all those conversions. Talk to your FM folks about the possibility of trading in your Sony for one of the newer Epson projectors. Wide variety of inputs along with a brighter picture.

I've asked about getting the newer Epson projectors. Short answer: No. Nearly all of the improvements thus far have come from Stake and personal budgets. The FM group covered the Teradek and electricity for the overhead camera in the back of the chapel. Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

Thankfully, I've got a Stake President who shares my affinity for improved production.

How are they holding up? Do you power them off between events? I tried SDI in my building with no luck. Just bought a set of these and did some initial testing today and it looks promising. Concerned about reliability. Thanks!

randysteck wrote:Since SDI equipment is pretty expensive, we tried a different approach to video distribution throughout a "legacy" building. (Our stake center dates to 1974). We used these units: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0107 ... UTF8&psc=1.

These do a very nice job of 1080P/30 throughout the building.

They relay an incoming HDMI signal over existing coax on one of 99 selectable channels. Multiple receivers work great with just one transmitter. We're using these now for overflow areas for stake conference piggybacking off the webcast to other sites, and satellite projection in the chapel. Interestingly, the satellite receiver only gives us SD for the chapel, but if we pull the signal from the HDMI port we get 720P. Using this in the chapel is MUCH better than the SD, plus it allows us to remove the antiquated SD modulators from equipment rack.

Does anyone have experience with their buildings being upgraded to HDMI by the FM group and the resultant system? It looks like many people on this thread are trying to make things work in older buildings (ours goes back to the 1960s). We've had some A/V upgrades over the years. Now the FM group is putting in HDMI. The stake president wants to understand a little more about what he's getting (he's fairly aware of technical things) before he approves the deal. He hasn't seen enough detail about the how system will work to approve it yet. He's concerned that we might lose capabilities that we currently have. Based on my experience of A/V upgrades and reduced features over the years, I think he has a valid concern.

I've seen one building where the FM group did an HDMI upgrade. I got a quick tour of it by some helpful people striking after stake conference, but now that this upgrade is upon us, I want to go back and ask more questions I'm just wondering if anyone's been upgraded and using the system and has any wishes of things being done differently? The stake president seems to get some involvement in the discussion.

I'm going through something similar that is a worry for me. Our old system had 2 inputs once the camera was mounted. The input from the overflow was almost made unusable except I happened to stop by when he was there and asked that it be kept so I could do all my camera mixing in the Library (a great distance from the chapel). So I'm nervous how I'll support 2 cameras in the HDMI system the FM has ordered. But that's my only concern at this point. It'll definitely improve the Primary and RS rooms CCTV from coax to HDMI.

In the past I've been able to use an output as input for broadcasting to support 2 cameras... I'm eager to hear what other's have had done though.

Interestingly enough mine just went through, Marshalls did the upgrade.

My biggest request of the Stake Presidency was that our CCTV was going really bad. One post we connect to in the Cultural Hall is bad, the other one is barely hanging on by a thread, if someone sneezes in the room it could knock the picture into fuzzylandville. The pictures are fading and don't look good. The feed I get in the Library looks great, but after it gets through all the wiring in the RS/P and Cultural Hall it's pretty bad and has gotten steadily worse.

We met with FM and he finally said, well, let's get you an upgrade... Great Fantastic....

What they did:
There is a new 1080p Camera mounted in the Chapel, It appears to be connecting as HDMI over Ethernet
There is an HDMI Input from the Podium, it appears to be connecting as HDMI over Ethernet
They brought it back to the Library Cabinet where they also hooked into the Satellite (the DVD Recorder/player was left in the cabinet, but not plugged in anywhere)
A new very small LCD panel is mounted replacing the ancient TV that used to serve us as a viewing station in the cabinet

There is a bunch of cabling stuffed back into the back of the cabinet, the USB/Console to control the camera - cables cut, removed that I have no idea where they've gone

Nothing was changed about the CCTV connections in the Cultural Hall, the RS and P rooms - which is what was the original request. So, Maybe I'll just need to figure that out myself. So the webcast is going to look great to other buildings, the people in the stake center will continue to see a bad picture - that daisy chain RG5 is really not great,

Thanks for the info, johnshaw. Was there any explanation as to why they didn't upgrade the rest of the rooms? The building where I saw it done did get HDMI in the other rooms (using the Extron cat 6 connection someone referenced above).

Did they install HDMI out in the chapel for the projector for satellite broadcasts?

I'm wondering how the new systems handle video distribution. Since it's HDMI, we don't have TV channels. We currently have 5 modulators. I wonder how we'll distribute languages to different rooms. I'm especially curious how we'll do things like those multi-stake satellite conferences that start with a local opening exercise and then we have to switch to the satellite feed.

mevans wrote:We currently have 5 modulators. I wonder how we'll distribute languages to different rooms.

I guess that would depend on if the audio is distributed via the HDMI or some other way. Except for ASL, I think it's all the same video.

russellhltn wrote:

mevans wrote:We currently have 5 modulators. I wonder how we'll distribute languages to different rooms.

I guess that would depend on if the audio is distributed via the HDMI or some other way. Except for ASL, I think it's all the same video.

Yes, ASL is different video. Also the chapel camera is different video.

Audio is a good question. I hope it's coming over HDMI.

Many years ago I went to a nearby stake to help them solve satellite problems between conference sessions. If I remember correctly, at that time, that stake had a button panel where they selected the audio feed for each room's ceiling speaker and they didn't have modulators for each language, so it's possible they'll do a panel like that for choosing the HDMI feed to each room.

Historical musings I vaguely remember an a/v remodel we had in the early 1990s and I think the church wasn't into modulators at that time and we had to push to get modulators for the languages, as someone at the church didn't think modulators were a good idea. I think our stake's original satellite system was installed in the early 1980s by the stake before the rise of the FM group. Whoever installed that used modulators. We had done some enhancements, including adding a BNC patch panel. I was sad to see all the BNC connectors lose out to F connectors with church standardization, although I did take a liking to the AVS-1 control panel they installed. We actually hung onto that panel through a subsequent remodel. Even though it had been discontinued, when we asked the a/v architect about it, he said he liked that panel and would leave it in.

mevans wrote:Thanks for the info, johnshaw. Was there any explanation as to why they didn't upgrade the rest of the rooms? The building where I saw it done did get HDMI in the other rooms (using the Extron cat 6 connection someone referenced above).

This is one of the bigger problems when an STS --> HC --> FM --> Contractor is the process. When the HC and I walked through the issues with the CCTV we understood that it would be a focus of the work.

mevans wrote:Did they install HDMI out in the chapel for the projector for satellite broadcasts?

Yes for my install there is an input and and output at the podium.

There was NO change to audio Distribution or for that matter video distribution from the Cabinet to the rest of the building.

They just started the A/V remodel in our stake center. I'll try to report back on what they ended up doing.

I wanted to report back on our system after doing some testing.

Input1 - mounted Camera in the Chapel (camera was upgraded) comes through to the teradek as 720p60
Input2- Podium (there is an HDMI + 3.5m audio input plate)
Input3- Overflow (there is an HDMI + 3.5m audio input plate) - This was done a my request - I don't know if this is normal for them
Input4 - Sattelite
Input2,3,4 - require the satellite override to be pushed at the podium to hear the sound in the chapel and the rest of the meetinghouse.

Output1 - TV mounted at the cabinet (7 inch - analog) - Input2,3,4 all have audio/video Input1 currently has only the video of the Camera. I have since asked them to tie in the audio, as I was speaking to them they said, well, the chapel system is ported to the library, so they figure I could use the library sound to 'hear' what's going on in the chapel. I told them that I needed the audio to validate that audio/video is going to the Teradek - only way to troubleshoot when a webcast has 'no audio' - first thing I need to do is hear it at the monitor @ the cabinet to double-check.
Output2 - Teradek HDMI (for video) and chapel audio (analog) line in like it was before.

Input2 and Input3 are HDMI over Ethernet, however, the Ethernet plugs directly into the Extron which (I validated with the contractor) has internal mechanisms to translate Ethernet back to HDMI) means that I can't grab that HDMI signal to put into a mixer to do multiple cameras for my webcast, or at least I haven't figured out how to do that without incurring more hardware cost. I was hoping there would be EthernettoHDMI in my cabinet I could snag 'before' going into the building system, taking it into a switch, then putting it back into the system like I used to with the RCA/Analog system it replaced. I'm stuck using their switcher which can detract from the meeting when switching between two inputs. I'll play with it more, but at this point I'm not seeing signal into my teradek so I'm working on at least a single signal right now.

Just a quick update. It appears that what we got was not an HDMI upgrade to the Meetinghouse, but a partial upgrade based on what they could do within the budget. I just wanted to be clear because some have talked about different installs in this thread.

johnshaw wrote:Input2 and Input3 are HDMI over Ethernet, however, the Ethernet plugs directly into the Extron which...means that I can't grab that HDMI signal to put into a mixer to do multiple cameras for my webcast.

Our upgrade is mostly complete, but there are some lingering issues, so I haven't posted about it yet. We, too, have the Extron switcher. We didn't have a multiple camera setup, but my brother's stake does have one. They have a video mixer and something like 5 remote-controlled cameras (local creativity...I'm sure not funded by the FM group). If I'm ever over there again when they have it set up, I'll have to check out their equipment and see what they did, now that I'm more familiar with what the FM group installs. I'm guessing they ran their own HDMI over Cat 5 lines, along with the remote control lines for the cameras. They had several people on their crew. A couple of them gave me a quick tour when I was there.

I just finished broadcasting stake conference this last weekend, after receiving the STS calling about 4 weeks ago. It was an intense 4 weeks as I was trying to bring about major changes away from the horribly yellow, grainy, and stretched D70 images in place, with loud broadcast buzz, to a good experience. I ended having a friend donate a Hikvision PTZ IP camera which delivered excellent quality. I used vMix to bring in the IP camera feed, and a usb HDMI capture device to bring in the feed from the old D70 (which I used only while moving around the nice PTZ cam). As others have said, vMix allows any length of audio or video input delay, so I synced everything up to the lowest common denominator which was the IP camera. Also, I don't trust the Teradek, I think mine's got issues and FM is thinking about replacement. I just used vMix to encode and upload the stream. I used an hdmi to composite converter to then backfeed the output to the old ghetto modulators for the rostrum to see the feed and for RS room. That image was super lousy for that in-building distribution on the analog coax, but that wasn't a big deal. For the laptop at the rostrum if they want to show a powerpoint, I put an NDI client on the laptop to bring that feed into my laptop running vMix as well, so I could do some PIP - worked great. Broadcast went great, but here's my problem:

The Hikvision IP introduces about 300ms of delay. vMix wants to add to that a 300ms buffer, which I can get rid of at the risk of losing picture consistency. Stake presidency wants two projectors in the gym, relaying the same stream I'm broadcasting. With a 700ms total delay, that's too much for gym projectors when the real event is visible in the same line of sight. I think 150ms would probably be OK. I assume the NDI PTZ cameras also have at least 300ms of delay? This would not work for gym projectors. Any thoughts? What kind of delay have you experienced with NDI PTZ cameras, just in the camera processing/encoding to NDI?

fran4383 wrote:The Hikvision IP introduces about 300ms of delay.

This is already too much lag for gym projection. 100-150ms total delay can be tolerated. Under 100ms is ideal.

fran4383 wrote:vMix wants to add to that a 300ms buffer, which I can get rid of at the risk of losing picture consistency.

I'm not sure that 300ms plays a part in local viewing. Yes, it will add a bit more latency to the streaming video, but that's of no real concern since they're already lagging behind "real time" by 30-180 seconds anyway. I believe vMix bypasses the streaming buffer for an output to a spare HDMI port on your graphics card, like I think you're doing now. Still, vMix will add a minimum of 2-3 frames for capturing/processing/outputting. (This is similar to Wirecast, which I use.) BTW, 2-3 frames at 30fps is 67-100ms leaving hardly any wiggle room for anything else. However, 2-3 frames at 60fps is half of that, or 33-50ms.

fran4383 wrote:Stake presidency wants two projectors in the gym, relaying the same stream I'm broadcasting. With a 700ms total delay, that's too much for gym projectors when the real event is visible in the same line of sight. I think 150ms would probably be OK.

Yeah, you can squeak by on 150ms. The problem is, you're stuck with real-time audio in the gym, so as the projection lag increases, so does the "lip sync" problem.

fran4383 wrote:I assume the NDI PTZ cameras also have at least 300ms of delay? This would not work for gym projectors. Any thoughts? What kind of delay have you experienced with NDI PTZ cameras, just in the camera processing/encoding to NDI?

NDI claims to have end-to-end latency with only 1 frame delay (in ideal conditions), but I've not used it, so YMMV. If you don't have a dedicated Cat5e cable from the NDI camera to your PC, the signal will have to travel over the church LAN. It's a Multicast signal, but ever since NDI 2.0 they have ways of manually specifying which devices will receive the stream so it doesn't get bogged down trying to stream to the entire LAN (including the AP's). The church building LAN will have to have Gigabit switches and good cabling practices to support GigE speeds.

I use either HDMI or SDI output cameras. For HDMI cameras, I convert to SDI. The signals can then travel over the existing 75 Ohm coax already in the walls. OK, most of the time. You have to make sure the coax is "home runned" back to the satellite cabinet, or wherever you setup your streaming gear. This offers about as low latency to your PC as it gets.

We've been building out a newer (non analog) system as best as we can over the last four years for our stake. I've toured other stakes and feel that the setup is much simpler to use and even higher quality (more tolerable latency). If there is interest I could post more about the decisions that were made. The driving factors included: area authorities requiring an HDMI jack at the podium for Saturday sessions, requiring wireless microphones, and requiring hymn lyrics on a screen in the cultural hall. We considered many things including

[*] End-user experience fidelity
[*] Acceptable latency
[*] Microphone placement
[*] Lighting
[*] Camera operation
[*] Switching & Titling
[*] Budget

Our building is 30+ years old so we have to do several hours of temporary setup for each conference which will be greatly reduced if the building wiring is updated.

matthewk wrote:If there is interest I could post more about the decisions that were made.

I'd love to hear more about your setup and the decisions driving it. We've gone through several iterations over the years also, settling on a system that's far easier to setup than previous years. BTW, we're also on the waiting list to get our stake center upgraded to HD distribution. Our sound system especially is showing its age.

I will see what I can put together, and will link to it here.

Do you know what the standard is for churches with HD distribution? I want to match the church standard but only see bits and pieces (like using the Extron DTP R HWP 4K 331D listed above).

matthewk wrote:Do you know what the standard is for churches with HD distribution? I want to match the church standard but only see bits and pieces (like using the Extron DTP R HWP 4K 331D listed above).

I don't know if there's an official standard or if it's up to the architects. The way I understand things, there are only about 4 or 5 A/V system architects that the church uses across the United States (and maybe that includes Canada?). I imagine in other geographies there is a similar limited number of A/V architects. They aren't church employees. I don't even know if they are all church members. I know the one I've most recently worked with is a church member. That's a pretty small group of people the church needs to communicate with regarding its desires.