LockedSecond Life?

Is the church thinking of doing anything in Second Life?

There are more and more big companies getting in on the whole SL act (IBM, Cisco, BMW, etc)

At this time I don't believe there are any plans.

Tom

portseven wrote:Is the church thinking of doing anything in Second Life?

There are more and more big companies getting in on the whole SL act (IBM, Cisco, BMW, etc)

Can someone fill me in on what Second Life is? Thanks.

As the Second Life website says:

Second Life is a 3-D virtual world entirely built and owned by its residents.

I tried Second Life for several days to a week. I ended up canceling my account because it is an addicting program and I needed to live my "First Life." I don't see the Church promoting Second Life simply for that reason, that we have better things to do in our "first lives" real lives than to spend all of it living in a virtual online world.

I've never played 2nd Life (although I do know what it is).

Can you imagine Virtual Missionaries knocking on your Second Life door? That would be pretty dang funny.

Virtual Sacrament Meeting anyone?

More then likely, members who are a part of SL will start things on their own. I've seen it happen when the Internet got started with the various religious forums. I've heard the church was aware of them and kinda watched things - probably more out of curiosity then anything, but it never moved into that area.

kgthunder wrote:As the Second Life website says:


I tried Second Life for several days to a week. I ended up canceling my account because it is an addicting program and I needed to live my "First Life." I don't see the Church promoting Second Life simply for that reason, that we have better things to do in our "first lives" real lives than to spend all of it living in a virtual online world.

Isn't the Web itself a 'a virtual world' anyway? Surely any arguments against SL being taking away from RL can be applied to the internet as a whole?!?!?

I think SL may prove to be the model for the next generation 'Web', an evolution if you like. I am deffo watching its development with interest. I see it like a 3D version of the Web.

portseven wrote:Isn't the Web itself a 'a virtual world' anyway? Surely any arguments against SL being taking away from RL can be applied to the internet as a whole?!?!?

I think SL may prove to be the model for the next generation 'Web', an evolution if you like. I am deffo watching its development with interest. I see it like a 3D version of the Web.

First, I need to make real clear that being a moderator for these forums does not make me in any way an official representative of the Church.

With that being said, here are my 2¢...

Your argument that Second Life could end up being an evolution of the Web has some merit. Having not played the game, I speak on assumption; I assume if an environment like Second Life were to envelop the current Web, it would definitely be a more intuitive Web "browsing" experience, as it would be resemble an experience closer to that which we would have in real life.

However, in it's current form, the only benefit for the companies/organizations you named earlier to be getting involved with Second Life is a commercial gain. I don't see how this "technology" would improve any of the missions of the Church that are not already being accomplished in the current form of the Web.

I have looked at Second life extensively for Educational Purposes and have found that it really puts a personal touch on the digital world. It is really amazing how quickly you can build up relationships with people you just met. Unlike Chat, you have physical and visual cues that help you form those relationships.

If someone were to build a virtual church it could house people from all over the world. You can put up exhibits that people can look at when no one else is there. Missionaries could be waiting to talk to people. Just like the church's websites are a place for people to come for information, a virtual space could be the same, but much easier and more interactive.

I personally haven't had the time to learn how to build things in second life, but I hear pretty much anyone can learn to do it with a little time. If the church ever did something like that I would be delighted to send people there. If anyone hears of someone within the Second Life community taking this on, I would definitely want to know!

I have read that one of the problems of Second Life is the extensive pornography available there. Similarly, users can customize their avatars which may or may not be indecent. If Linden Labs develops a way to keep those aspects away from those who don't want to be exposed to them, I could see the Church doing something such as:

• Chat with missionaries (investigators can already chat online with missionaries at the MTC -- http://mormon.org/question/0,8534,795-1,00.html) This doesn't seem like a significant stretch from this.
• Virtual museum gallery of historical or art (similar to what is housed physically at the Museum of Church History and Art west of Temple Square)
• See / hear a virtual concert -- it may be a live broadcast on radio or tv (or prerecorded) of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, an organ recital, or some other cultural event
• Attend a virtual fireside (LDS teens could socialize with others with their same values from around the world)
• See a virtual presentation similar to ones at visitor centers near many temples

There are a whole host of challenges and concerns which would need to be addressed before this could happen... but it isn't something that should be discounted.

haledn wrote:Chat with missionaries (investigators can already chat online with missionaries at the MTC -- http://mormon.org/question/0,8534,795-1,00.html)

Wow, I had no idea there was online chat with missionaries at the MTC. Cool!

haledn wrote:I could see the Church doing something such as:

• Chat with missionaries (investigators can already chat online with missionaries at the MTC -- http://mormon.org/question/0,8534,795-1,00.html) This doesn't seem like a significant stretch from this.
• Virtual museum gallery of historical or art (similar to what is housed physically at the Museum of Church History and Art west of Temple Square)
• See / hear a virtual concert -- it may be a live broadcast on radio or tv (or prerecorded) of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, an organ recital, or some other cultural event
• Attend a virtual fireside (LDS teens could socialize with others with their same values from around the world)
• See a virtual presentation similar to ones at visitor centers near many temples

There are a whole host of challenges and concerns which would need to be addressed before this could happen... but it isn't something that should be discounted.

I envision a virtual "Temple Square" in Second Life ("SL") complete with all of the landscaping and buildings. The more detail the better (well, except the SL Salt Lake Temple itself, which could just be one big 100' tall room on the inside). The roaming missionary avatars that would populate the area could do exactly what they do now at Temple Square ("Hi, can I answer any questions you have?").

The missionary possibilities of SL are extremely attractive because there are no geopolitical boundaries inside of SL. Therefore, a citizen of China who may not be able to take the lessons from missionaries in his or her home could instead visit the virtual Temple Square inside of SL and learn about the Restoration from the on-line missionary avatars, get a virtual copy of the Book of Mormon, etc.

To drive people to the virtual site, there would have to be some giveaways or freebies. Since Temple Square is renowned for its gardens, then they could possibly make all of the bushes, tree, flowers, walkways, paths, water features, statues, furniture, decorative items, doors, windows, wall textures, etc that they will have to create in order to build the virtual Temple Square as the freebies that they give away, e.g. "click on this crate for 50 types of bulb flowers", or "click on this crate for 25 types of flowering trees", etc. In the wintertime, you can add some giveaways for the prims in a manger scene, and another for different kinds of Christmas lights. The possibilities are literally endless. Also, include in each "crate of goodies" a note that would include an official message from the LDS Church. The note may include some scripture, instructions on how to get more information, a link to teleport back to the SL Temple Square, or all of the above.

Furthermore, it is possible to write and attach scripts to make objects perform different tasks (like, for example, tulips to open when the sun is shining and close when it is not), so the more clever the objects that are given away the more appeal they will have... and thus the more people will want to own it - driving more traffic to the SL Temple Square. Make the objects non-copyable so that everyone must get it from the source... i.e. where all of the virtual missionaries are.

You can also set up guided tours of any virtual landscape in SL, for example... see what has been done on the island of Svarga, where a complete ecology runs autonomously (including clouds, rain, sunshine, bees, birds, trees and flowers). On Svarga, there are little "hover discs" that will take anyone who sits on one around the island and explain different aspects of the virtual site. It would be trivial to re-create the same functionality at a virtual Temple Square inside of Second Life.

Actually, if you make the SL Temple Square picturesque enough. People will just show up at the Virtual Temple Square to have their virtual picture taken at the site... just like people do in the RL Temple Square.

Anyway. It would be cool to get in now while there is still press spotlight to be had for companies and organizations that are joining in. It could be a huge.

cheers.

--rus.

I can see some of the advantages that many of you are mentioning. But I still hold my personal opinion that the Church would never venture into something like this for show or press coverage. We have enough work to do in the Real World and our efforts should mainly be pointed at that. The only audience I see us gaining is an already existing subset of the audience we already have for the current lds.org website. It's cool, but I'm not sure it would time/money well-spent.

mkmurray wrote:I can see some of the advantages that many of you are mentioning. But I still hold my personal opinion that the Church would never venture into something like this for show or press coverage. We have enough work to do in the Real World and our efforts should mainly be pointed at that. The only audience I see us gaining is an already existing subset of the audience we already have for the current lds.org website. It's cool, but I'm not sure it would time/money well-spent.

There is enough work to do in RL yes, but you may not be aware that there are real world individuals behind each of the SL avatars. Just fyi.

As far as the audience goes, can you be sure that governments such as China (and any other government that restricts freedom of religion) allow free and unfettered HTTP access to lds.org? It would be trivial for such governments to enact network policies that completely prohibit access to lds.org by its one billion plus possible citizen converts... and network policies can be imposed (or removed) on a whim. Conversely, it would be pretty much impossible to apply such simple network restriction rules in SL. Once established, the virtual Temple Square could be visited by anyone anywhere in the real world that has access to a copmuter. It would be very unlikely that China would prohibit access to SL, since the cat has already been let out of the bag. Thousands of Chinese citizens participate in SL, including a Chinese national with the distinction of becoming the first SL citizen to make herself a millionaire (in US dollars) by only conducting business in the virtual world of Second Life.

The press coverage would be a side benefit of course. More bang for the buck to do it now imho. "The LDS Church opened its' visionary virtual Temple Square in Second Life today...." - I can see the headline now. Heh.

cheers.

--rus.

Based on some past experience, I suspect what's needed to get church involvement is some signs of actual results rather then just some vision. Are there no SL members acting as missionaries? Have they gotten any RL results?

I am actually surprised that there would be a discussion about SL as a tool for the church. In the end SL is a game. I sincerely hope that it would never be considered by the church. I think that it would be a huge waste in the Lord's resources. What would be to gain? Virtual baptisms? Virtual converts?

It is a tool to generate revenue for a Linden Labs. If you were to go to the home page of Second Life you would see some Zombie Samurai. I severely doubt the church would benefit in any way by associating itself with such a venture.

I hope I don't offend anyone, as there are probably several opinions and there are many SLers out there that take it very seriously.

Sorry for the rant but I personally discourage people from joining SL. It is addictive and that time could be spent interacting with RLers.

I think I might have to step in and say let's informally close this discussion. I think some valid points have been made for and against this idea. However, I'm afraid if we continue, the comments will be more argumentative in nature rather than constructive.

There have been some great ideas put forth and I think it best we leave it where it's at. If someone at the Church gets taken by this idea, then the purpose of this thread has been acheived. If no one at the Church agrees with the idea, then it was worth putting forward as an idea. I don't think anyone has stepped over the line yet; but I would just like to keep from turning this thread into a bunch of refutations and getting feelings hurt or the mood becoming less than productive.

Again, I do appreciate everyone's comments and I feel this has been an informative and productive discussion. My personal opinion has changed a little bit because of the discussion. Thanks for your cooperation.

mkmurray wrote:I think I might have to step in and say let's informally close this discussion. I think some valid points have been made for and against this idea. However, I'm afraid if we continue, the comments will be more argumentative in nature rather than constructive.

There have been some great ideas put forth and I think it best we leave it where it's at. If someone at the Church gets taken by this idea, then the purpose of this thread has been acheived. If no one at the Church agrees with the idea, then it was worth putting forward as an idea. I don't think anyone has stepped over the line yet; but I would just like to keep from turning this thread into a bunch of refutations and getting feelings hurt or the mood becoming less than productive.

Again, I do appreciate everyone's comments and I feel this has been an informative and productive discussion. My personal opinion has changed a little bit because of the discussion. Thanks for your cooperation.

Very well put. I've closed the thread.

Tom

Larry Richman, the Director of the Internet Coordination Group for the Church posted a blog about Second Life. You can read it here.

Tom

I think this validates what I indicated before - members move in on their own, the church watches, and when the concept is validated in the leader's minds, then the church will officially move in. That's what happened when the Internet became popular and I think it answers the concerns expressed.

Anyone who believes in the SL vision, now seems to be the time to join up and help move it to fruition. The fact there has been one RL baptism is very encouraging. For those who disagree, SL will succeed or fail on it's own merit. If it fails it will only "waste" some self-selected volunteers' time.

tomw wrote:Larry Richman, the Director of the Internet Coordination Group for the Church posted a blog about Second Life. You can read it here.

Tom

Tom,

Ha! Thanks for the link... I'll have to look around and find the places he mentions. My avatar - dressed up in a suit, white shirt, tie, and bicycle helmet - should fit right in!

cheers.

--rus.

I just came across this article:

http://news.com.com/Jesuits+urged+to+ta ... g=nefd.top

Much has been speculated in this thread about the usefulness of the current LDS presence in Second Life, so I thought I might volunteer some facts, as one who is intimately involved with the LDS project in Second Life (SL).

SL may seem like nothing more than a game to some, but as a veteran of online community architecture and development, it is apparent that SL is almost as much a community as the town I live in. There's a strong sense of ownership among the regulars, and it's not just another internet chat site. Believe me; I've seen virtual communities spring up fast and die fast due to a lack of sustainability, usually because members become disinterested fast by the lack of things to do, and eventual lack of things to talk about. SL is constantly evolving.

There is opposition in all things, and SL is no different. Yes, there are plenty of places in SL in which you wouldn't want your bishop to find you, but that doesn't make the entire place bad. As I recall, there's a bar on Main Street in Salt Lake City, too, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ever set foot in that city.

Now, with that out of the way:

The main purpose of the LDS island in SL is a missionary approach. Three months ago, we received non-member visitors to the island at a rate of about one every 20 minutes. Currently (and especially on Sundays), we are receiving non-member visitors at a rate of one every three minutes on average, and on Sundays it's more like one every minute. These stats do not include the LDS members of the island, or other regular visitors.

All of these non-members had to do some kind of search to get to the island, whether it was on keywords like "LDS," "Mormon," "organ," "genealogy," or whatever. Nobody lands there by accident. When they get there, we have signage and interactive links all over the place that point to various resources at lds.org and mormon.org.

We have a replica of the tabernacle, a standard meetinghouse, the RS building and a few other elements, but they are for demonstration purposes only (although we do stream general conference into the virtual tabernacle. Last spring, 30 of us gathered online to watch Conference together in that space). We hold no kind of services in the buildings, though, and are quite clear about that.

Those of us involved with the LDS in Second Life project are in full agreement that the offline world is of primary importance. But numbers don't lie -- people online are curious about us, and our beliefs, so we are answering that curiosity with a responsible place for them to find answers, and hopefully lead to the desire for more information from missionaries. Sure, we could instead wander around other savory parts of Second Life and enjoy it, or not do it at all, but many of us have chosen to keep this project alive to satisfy a growing missionary demand. It's a fun hobby.

Finally, to say that SL is a game is to say that none of the avatars wandering around have real people behind them, and this is simply not true. Every person walking around SL is a real human being, and when they are looking for answers to their questions about our faith -- questions which they may be too intimidated/insecure to ask people offline -- we are more than happy to open some doors. There are places in SL where entertainment is the focus, but not on the LDS island. It's a good work we've undertaken, and we're happy to do it.

emckirdy wrote:Currently (and especially on Sundays), we are receiving non-member visitors at a rate of one every three minutes on average, and on Sundays it's more like one every minute. These stats do not include the LDS members of the island, or other regular visitors.

All of these non-members had to do some kind of search to get to the island, whether it was on keywords like "LDS," "Mormon," "organ," "genealogy," or whatever. Nobody lands there by accident.

Quite impressive. Thanks for the information.

Out of curiosity, any idea where the SL numbers are headed for? Is SL itself still growing or it is plateauing? Any known real life baptisms?

RussellHltn wrote:Any known real life baptisms?

LDSWebGuy's article about it mentioned by tomw just a few posts ago states that there is one "committed" to baptism directly from SL.

And agreed, thank you very much for the information. I never doubted that what some of you are doing in SL is productive and good. I say keep it up!

I personally don't think the Church is ready to officially represent itself in a realm like SL yet. As for the decision to dedicate resources and funding to such a project, I leave that in their hands. But that doesn't mean community volunteers can't keep doing a great thing!

mkmurray wrote:LDSWebGuy's article about it mentioned by tomw just a few posts ago states that there is one "committed" to baptism directly from SL.

And agreed, thank you very much for the information. I never doubted that what some of you are doing in SL is productive and good. I say keep it up!

I personally don't think the Church is ready to officially represent itself in a realm like SL yet. As for the decision to dedicate resources and funding to such a project, I leave that in their hands. But that doesn't mean community volunteers can't keep doing a great thing!

I agree. Keep up the great work!

Tom

If the "committed baptism" is the same one I'm thinking of, then it did take place, somewhere in Texas. I saw photographs, but wasn't in attendance. At the moment, there are three island residents who are at various stages of the missionary discussions, and all three are intending to be baptized.

One of the realities of any online community is the great ease with which people can either represent or misrepresent themselves. We are not oblivious to that, and while we certainly hope for the best out of each person, one never knows if there's a different story than what's being presented. The encouraging part of Second Life (to me) is that a vast majority of islanders and residents end up being very invested and committed to the community -- either emotionally, financially, or both -- and therefore are not going to mess around and play games. I never thought I'd see an online community where the greater population was sincere and committed to the common cause.

I agree that the time is probably not right for an official church presence. At the moment, the amount of non-member traffic is no doubt comparatively low compared to other avenues of missionary work. But what raised my hackles reading through this thread were the comments such as "waste of resources" and "more important things to do in the real world," seemingly from people who haven't actually checked things out before forming an opinion.

The last thing I needed was to participate in (nevermind manage) another online community. My wife rues the day when a friend of ours who works at Linden Lab finally coerced me into signing up for an account. And I was prepared to throw in the towel on the entire thing until I stumbled onto the LDS sub-community, and learned of its vision and success. Though it is hard to imagine, as far as the LDS island goes, it's an extension of reality insomuch that these are very real people coming to ask questions about the church and the gospel, and who are seeking more information. I wouldn't describe that as 'imaginary' or 'game-like' at all.

I would invite everyone here to come and take a gander at what's going on, if anyone is so inclined. It has to be seen to be believed.

I really enjoy this whole forum -- these discussion boards are a great addition to the site.

This is an old thread now but I was curious as to your Second Life name as I am in the community too as "Maximilian Kohl" and wondered if we have met.

Carl Jokl wrote:This is an old thread now but I was curious as to your Second Life name as I am in the community too as "Maximilian Kohl" and wondered if we have met.

This conversation would better fit in a PM or email. Thanks.

When I met the Church (1974) I used to explain the pre-existence and mortal life with something like SL.
The only difference is in when you go into SL you still remember your real life.
But going back to the topic, I think, as FUZZY logic fan, that everything has its own top and bottom border and a variety of degree in the midle. So SL could be a good ways to advertise Church but ordinances must be performed into real life. And this real life is the rigth place for Church to stay.
It seem strange, to me, that Church will try to have an official presence in that "immaterial world" where ordinances can't be done.

A handful of members bought an island, upon which they have built an LDS visitors’ center, Family History Center, chapel, and personal residences. There is also a replica of the Relief Society building, the Christus statue, and the Tabernacle. To learn more about this, as well as information about what Second Life is, see http://ldsmediatalk.com/2007/05/11/morm ... cond-life/

MSNBC has written a story about religion in Second Life. (Be sure to watch the video on that page.)

As I said earlier, virtual world is a good example for plain of happyness explanation!
But it seem to me that now is having too much credit. SL is not a LIFE is a GAME.
If I go to Second life, can I buy a gun and kill someone. And if I do so, am I a killer?
SL is a good way to collect money, if this is the purpouse of the Church.
Can I have a Tomas B. Monson Avatar and be the Prophet of SL LDS Church?

SL invokes strong feelings within the community either way. However it is best to debate the viability or usefulness of SL in other non-Church operated forums.

Tom