youthmaster like website

Hi,

I'm looking at implementing a website similar to youthmaster for our YM program.
Youth master looks fantastic, but it's overkill for what I want to do, plus the canadian scouts program is different than the american.

We've tried communicating over gmail, etc. Using spreadsheets and google docs to collaborate between leaders, but it's just too unwieldly. I'd like to use the google-app-engine to create a website for scouts- duty-to-god - venture/duke of edinborough ("canadian scouts") programs that would allow leaders to keep a central update, and parents to view it, after using google-authentication. I don't want to keep any personal information, except boys names and their advancements in the respective programs, and possibly calendars for activities.

Before I get too deep, I wonder if some of the more savvy on the website could offer some advice:

1. Is this allowed? Or am I treading too close to the "No Website Rule".
2. Would you worry about hosting this stuff free on Google (data/privacy) or any other hosting company?

Just out of curiosity's sake... is there any official guideline for using sites like ywym.org and youthmaster?

Cheers
Todd

Todd Keeler wrote:Hi,

I'm looking at implementing a website similar to youthmaster for our YM program.
Youth master looks fantastic, but it's overkill for what I want to do, plus the canadian scouts program is different than the american.

We've tried communicating over gmail, etc. Using spreadsheets and google docs to collaborate between leaders, but it's just too unwieldly. I'd like to use the google-app-engine to create a website for scouts- duty-to-god - venture/duke of edinborough ("canadian scouts") programs that would allow leaders to keep a central update, and parents to view it, after using google-authentication. I don't want to keep any personal information, except boys names and their advancements in the respective programs, and possibly calendars for activities.

Before I get too deep, I wonder if some of the more savvy on the website could offer some advice:

1. Is this allowed? Or am I treading too close to the "No Website Rule".
2. Would you worry about hosting this stuff free on Google (data/privacy) or any other hosting company?

Just out of curiosity's sake... is there any official guideline for using sites like ywym.org and youthmaster?

Have you looked at the thread Request a clarification on usage of non-church owned websites? There is some good discussion on your specific concerns. The only official guidelines available right now are the two documents available at the Letters and Policiespage of Clerk and Technology Support titled Discontinuation of Local Church Unit Web Sites, 15 March 2001, and Authorized Church Web Sites, 13 December 2004.

Techgy wrote:The policy letter that's been referenced is quite clear to me. "No Other Web Sites". Which leaves no doubt as to what their intent was. I'm a bit surprised that it's even been a subject of discussion.

I agree... The letter in addition to "no other web sites," specifically lists scouting in the following pargraph:
"This restriction includes but is not limited to temples, missions, visitors' centers, auxiliaries, quorums, classes, SCOUT UNITS........"
I only had one question on the meaning of "email groups" and that was answered with some good suggestions on this forum...

Techgy wrote:The policy letter that's been referenced is quite clear to me. "No Other Web Sites". Which leaves no doubt as to what their intent was. I'm a bit surprised that it's even been a subject of discussion.

Subsequent developments, notably including the tacit blessing for the popular Return and Report home-teaching site, indicate to me that there is a gray area of toleration. The distinction seems to be that populating a site with downloads from MLS or LUWS is out of bounds, but rekeyed data might be okay.

boomerbubba wrote:Subsequent developments, notably including the tacit blessing for the popular Return and Report home-teaching site, indicate to me that there is a gray area of toleration. The distinction seems to be that populating a site with downloads from MLS or LUWS is out of bounds, but rekeyed data might be okay.

All of this is pure speculation. Until another policy is offered from Church HQ, the current policy stands quite clear. Also, I should note that the moderators on this site do not make policy. We can only refer you to that which has been posted by those who do, which has been done. Whatever statements have been made on this forum, are just opinions of those who entered into the discussion. We are bound to follow the brethren and their policies.

Be sure to put the words, "This is not an official Church website" on your site.

Techgy wrote:All of this is pure speculation. Until another policy is offered from Church HQ, the current policy stands quite clear. Also, I should note that the moderators on this site do not make policy. We can only refer you to that which has been posted by those who do, which has been done. Whatever statements have been made on this forum, are just opinions of those who entered into the discussion. We are bound to follow the brethren and their policies.

I am not just referring to things said on this forum, although I do factor that into consideration in trying to make informed judgments. Perhaps the most telling thing about the body of forum discussions is that TomW set out almost two years ago to compose an authoritative and detailed policy document describing what is permitted and what is not, then reported afer some time that Church authorities were not able to decide on one that could be published. So everyone is left to interpret policy based on their own reading. Your reading of the policy is less permissive than the reading of some others, who also believe they are following the brethren and their policies. Ultimately, the buck stops with local priesthood leaders, but those of us who serve under them are unable to help them much by pointing to specific, documented policies.

What does seem precedential in some sense from the RAR experience -- not just comments on this forum -- is that Church authorities intervened with respect to the initial version that was populated from MLS, but allow the current version with indirect data entry to continue while the Church attempts to build a next-generation replacement. Not only are units not counseled to avoid that site, and the developer was not counseled to take it down, he was given a high-visibility award by Church managers. I infer from observing those facts that some privately developed web sites are allowed. But I know that some are not. The question of where to draw the line is unsettled, in my view.

There are several other gray areas, configurations that are not dedicated web sites sponsored by units and not "email lists" either, such as what is permissible for members and leaders to do with cloud computing resources. The published policies do not settle those questions definitively, and more specific policies have not been forthcoming. The unoffical and quasi-official opinions offered on this forum -- sometimes contradictory and usually incomplete -- are among the best resources we have for studying it out in our minds.

Thanks for the input, especially the posted links that provided plenty of reading. I talked to our Stake Tech Specialist, and he seemed okay with a web-app program keeping progress information, as long as it was private and secure. A good idea out of the forum thread was initials for the youth, instead of full names. I definately think there could be a good discussion on when does a web-app becomes a web-site... but I'll save it for another time..

Thanks again

Hi Todd,

Have you looked at EditGrid.com?

You can essentially build a super-excel-workbook with very specialized fields/data/formats (and many sheets). The advantage is that it's hosted online, no need to copy it (one single version of the truth), accessible anywhere, etc.

It's not a traditional file that you would download, edit, reupload, repeat, etc. It's all live on the site, and if other people are editing the same sheet as you, not only can you see and chat with them, but their edits appear in front of you in real time.

It's one of the easiest ways for a quorum/troop to "go paperless". Of course it's free and can be password protected.

Regards,
Matt

mfarley wrote:Have you looked at EditGrid.com?

Is that substantially different from Google Docs spreadsheets?

TechnoBabel wrote:Be sure to put the words, "This is not an official Church website" on your site.

It would probably also be a good idea to get approval from the parents of youth before putting information about them on a non-Church web server. With the significant risk the servers could be cracked, I would imagine a fair number of parents would get pretty upset about ward leaders putting info about a child online, whether or not a "web app" meets the definition of a "web site".

Disclaimer: The above is a personal opinion, not anything even remotely official.

boomerbubba wrote:Is that substantially different from Google Docs spreadsheets?

To be honest I haven't tried Google's offering. But if I remember correctly, EditGrid was easier to embed in other sites and not force users to obtain and login to a Google Account.

(look at the last 5-6 "Access Rights" comparisons between Google and EditGrid: http://sudarmuthu.com/blog/2006/06/13/o ... rison.html)

(the first answer column is Google, the last answer column is EditGrid)

They say that EditGrid is more comprehensive than the competition, as they focus only on spreadsheet functionality (no other products):

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/ed ... dsheet.php
http://www.editgrid.com/user/fina/EditG ... oogle_Docs