New Stake and moving membership records

Hello,

On Sunday we create a new stake in our area (2 to make 3) but there were no ward boundary changes. We had 6 wards from the previous stakes moved into the new stake. We are trying to get things going in LCR and CDOL and have been working with the GSC. The stake is now active in CDOL and the 3 members of the stake presidency are listed. We need to get the clerks added so they can have the ability to update callings as they are filled in the new stake. However, even though CDOL properly lists the stake and the 6 wards as children, LCR in lds.org is still showing everyone as members of the previous stakes. A call to GSC this morning indicated that the ward clerks would have to move every member to the new stake. That seems crazy given that we just want to move the entire ward(s) to the new stake. Is this really a manual process that has to be run on all 3200 members?! Isn't there a way to automatically get all of the members in the 6 wards transferred to the new stake?

Thanks,
Rick

Several years ago I was ward clerk for a ward that moved from one stake to another (both were pre-existing). We did not have to move any records at that time but I don't know if something might have changed since then or if it makes a difference that you've got a new stake.

However, even if you do need to move all the records, you should be able to use the boundary realignment option to move all the members in a ward at one time. You shouldn't have to move each member individually.

Thanks for the experience. We are waiting for more detailed instructions from GSC, but if we can do the entire ward in one step, that makes me feel better. I just don't want to have any members left "orphaned" in the correct ward but the old stake.

I would not do any moves unless instructed by CHQ to do so. Moving people from their ward will release the members from their callings. (Assuming you could even do so - since they'd be moving from their ward to the same ward.) Wait for CHQ to re-assign everyone in the ward to their new stake.

russellhltn wrote:I would not do any moves unless instructed by CHQ to do so. Moving people from their ward will release the members from their callings. (Assuming you could even do so - since they'd be moving from their ward to the same ward.) Wait for CHQ to re-assign everyone in the ward to their new stake.

That's the problem - we have been waiting and then in a call today to the GSC, they said the ward clerks would have to do this. That didn't sound right to me so I wanted to see if anyone here had more information. From what you are saying, the members will move to the new stake automatically at some point without the local clerks having to do anything. That is what I expected and didn't want to go off in the wrong direction, but we also need to get the wards moved into the stake so we can begin assigning members to stake callings.

The problem is, the clerks can only move members to a new ward. Howzat that supposed to work if they are already in the right ward?

As far as I know, members are members of their ward. They become members of the stake depending on what stake that unit is assigned to.

Thanks - that's what I thought and it looks like the wards have now moved. On lds.org, I can see that I am assigned to the new stake, but I can still see the leadership in the old stake because I am still listed as an Asst Stake Clerk (out of unit now, I guess). Not sure if that will drop off automatically, but it should now be possible to get me listed as Asst Stake Clerk again in the new stake and then we can move forward as we expected.

Thanks for the comments. I thought that the GSC was directing us down the wrong path on having the clerks move members...

I'm not sure as the "release" system works properly if there's no ward change.

rickk wrote:On Sunday we create a new stake in our area (2 to make 3) but there were no ward boundary changes.

Give it some time, probably a week, for CHQ to sort it all out. You do not need to do anything. If CDOL is correct, and LCR does not follow after about a week, start asking again. Since everyone is staying in the same ward(s), membership records do not need to move.

In the meantime, don't forget to have each ward update MLS with the new stake unit number and name in the Systems area.

From what I'm seeing, it appears things in LCR are starting to settle out and work correctly. The stake was updated yesterday afternoon in CDOL, so there are likely a few things still propagating between systems.

The user's current unit (stake or stake and ward) is shown at the top right of the LCR page (just below the gray menu bar). If the stake president logs in, he should see the stake information. If a bishop logs in, he should see the new stake and his ward. Member records will move with the wards. If ward boundaries did not change, there is nothing I know of that needs to be done with member records.

The old stake will need to update callings to release members who moved to the new stake and have been released. The new stake president should be able to add callings for the stake clerks that have been sustained. Remember that there will be a delay while systems are synchronizing (wait 12 to 24 hours) before they have access.

Members will need to sync in LDS Tools to get the updated information for the new stake.

lajackson wrote:In the meantime, don't forget to have each ward update MLS with the new stake unit number and name in the Systems area.

If it's working correctly, MLS should eventually update itself, but it doesn't hurt to check.

scgallafent wrote:

lajackson wrote:In the meantime, don't forget to have each ward update MLS with the new stake unit number and name in the Systems area.

If it's working correctly, MLS should eventually update itself, but it doesn't hurt to check.

Good to know. A few years ago (before LCR) we had to do it manually.

And I guess it shouldn't take a week for LCR to change. A day or two seems reasonable. What a wonderfully connected world it has become.

lajackson wrote:

scgallafent wrote:

lajackson wrote:In the meantime, don't forget to have each ward update MLS with the new stake unit number and name in the Systems area.

If it's working correctly, MLS should eventually update itself, but it doesn't hurt to check.

Good to know. A few years ago (before LCR) we had to do it manually.

There was some work in MLS 3.7.4 and the full fix was made in MLS 3.8.1. The QA notes indicate the fix worked when tested -- we'll see!

In this case, MLS should update the first time a ward gets any kind of update to a membership record.

rickk wrote: On lds.org, I can see that I am assigned to the new stake, but I can still see the leadership in the old stake because I am still listed as an Asst Stake Clerk (out of unit now, I guess). Not sure if that will drop off automatically, ...

russellhltn wrote:I'm not sure as the "release" system works properly if there's no ward change.

CDOL should release the stake positions for those that changed stakes (I put that in our last release), so I will look and see why that didn't happen.

OK - so our 2nd counselor added me as an Asst Clerk on LCR and I can see that I am also listed in CDOL now. However, when I go to LCR, I am still only seeing the info for the old stake where I am also listed a Asst Stake Clerk. Do I need to wait 12+ hours for this to change or should it be working now? It propagated to CDOL almost immediately, so it definitely is in the system. I was expecting to have a drop down show up where the stake name is, but that hasn't happened yet...

rickk wrote:OK - so our 2nd counselor added me as an Asst Clerk on LCR and I can see that I am also listed in CDOL now. However, when I go to LCR, I am still only seeing the info for the old stake where I am also listed a Asst Stake Clerk. Do I need to wait 12+ hours for this to change or should it be working now? It propagated to CDOL almost immediately, so it definitely is in the system. I was expecting to have a drop down show up where the stake name is, but that hasn't happened yet...

You need to wait.

rickk wrote:OK - so our 2nd counselor added me as an Asst Clerk on LCR and I can see that I am also listed in CDOL now. However, when I go to LCR, I am still only seeing the info for the old stake where I am also listed a Asst Stake Clerk. Do I need to wait 12+ hours for this to change or should it be working now? It propagated to CDOL almost immediately, so it definitely is in the system. I was expecting to have a drop down show up where the stake name is, but that hasn't happened yet...

Yes you will have to wait until this evening. CDOL is the system of record for callings. LCR writes them directly there. Unfortunately the authorization system pulls data from CDOL every 6 hours, so you have to wait for that to happen before you get your new permissions.

The systems do need time to talk - even if the information is there. Since you have two positions , likely with the same calling(!) you may have a drop-down list to select which calling you are using for this visit to LCR.

Thanks. That helps to know the real expectations. We always hear "24-48 hours" but then most of the time when you make a change it is reflected within a few minutes. Knowing the "every 6 hours" is very helpful to calm us engineer types and help us not be (too) impatient...

It's permissions the generally need time. Many other changes are close to real-time, but not permissions.

Uh Oh! The engineer is getting impatient again...

I still don't seem to have permission to see the LCR section of the new Stake. I figured since I was added to LCR and that propagated to CDOL at around 1:30 this afternoon, I would have permissions by 9PM if it updates every 6 hours. I will wait and see whether it is working tomorrow, but it seems like it is taking longer than I would have expected given what was stated above.

rickk wrote:Uh Oh! The engineer is getting impatient again...

I still don't seem to have permission to see the LCR section of the new Stake. I figured since I was added to LCR and that propagated to CDOL at around 1:30 this afternoon, I would have permissions by 9PM if it updates every 6 hours. I will wait and see whether it is working tomorrow, but it seems like it is taking longer than I would have expected given what was stated above.

And to think I passed up the opportunity to make a comment earlier about how engineers tend to wait six hours and one minute.

There are several systems involved that collectively determine how long it takes for access rights to be updated. Jonesrk is correct that the process that synchronizes from CDOL to the next system in line normally runs every six hours. There are other systems involved, each of which contributes its own delay to the time it takes for rights to fully propagate.

Your best bet is to wait ... 12 to 24 hours ... so that information has time to make it through all of the systems. I expect things will be updated and working by tomorrow afternoon (24 hours after your calling was entered in LCR).

Too bad you didn't make the comment - it is most definitely true.

If it updates every 6 hours, then 6 hours is the LONGEST it should take, right? Oh no fair - now you throw "other systems" into the mix. Stop changing the rules...

Which is one reason I tell people 24-48 hours. They're so much happier when it happens sooner.

I now have access to the new stake info (whew! ), and looking at the out of unit callings shows that no one that moved to the new stake seems the have been automatically released from their stake callings. Jonesrk indicated that was supposed to have happened, so any thoughts on this? Will we need to go through and have someone in each of the old stakes remove/release these folks? Or is this something this will happen, but is still working its way through the systems?

Rick

russellhltn wrote:Which is one reason I tell people 24-48 hours. They're so much happier when it happens sooner.

russellhltn is wise.

rickk wrote:... looking at the out of unit callings shows that no one that moved to the new stake seems the have been automatically released from their stake callings. Jonesrk indicated that was supposed to have happened, so any thoughts on this? Will we need to go through and have someone in each of the old stakes remove/release these folks?

I think jonesrk was planning to look into why they weren't released but I don't think he is planning to update the data. I would have someone on your end go ahead and make the changes.

scgallafent wrote:

russellhltn wrote:Which is one reason I tell people 24-48 hours. They're so much happier when it happens sooner.

russellhltn is wise.

The only problem with saying 24-48 hours for everything is that when most things update in minutes, the "peons" begin to disbelieve that number. Understanding that this longer time applies when permissions are involved is useful, but I think the GSC just says 24-48 hours for everything and that isn't the case.

Thanks for all of the comments and help...

rickk wrote:The only problem with saying 24-48 hours for everything is that when most things update in minutes, the "peons" begin to disbelieve that number. Understanding that this longer time applies when permissions are involved is useful, but I think the GSC just says 24-48 hours for everything and that isn't the case.

I don't know what the GSC says, but here on the forum, we're pretty consistent in saying that permissions take longer, but we don't apply that "24-48 hours" guideline to all updates. Certainly when RussellHltn talked about 24-48 hours in this discussion, he was referring specifically to permissions.

It is tricky, however, since there are a few things other than permissions that take a while (for example, some of the effects of ward and stake boundary and unit reorganizations). But you're right that the majority of changes are close to instantaneous, which is certainly nice.

rickk wrote:Uh Oh! The engineer is getting impatient again...

I still don't seem to have permission to see the LCR section of the new Stake. I figured since I was added to LCR and that propagated to CDOL at around 1:30 this afternoon, I would have permissions by 9PM if it updates every 6 hours. I will wait and see whether it is working tomorrow, but it seems like it is taking longer than I would have expected given what was stated above.

I also didn't say 6 hours after your calling was entered. The process runs 4 times a day at specific times. That is when the process starts. I know that it takes a while once the process starts to make it all the way through, so the 24 hrs is definitely a safer time to wait.

jonesrk wrote:

rickk wrote:Do I need to wait 12+ hours for this to change

Yes you will have to wait until this evening.

And while you are waiting, count your blessings. For this to sort out within a few days is marvelous. Last time for us (several years ago), most things were settled after about two weeks, Most things.

lajackson wrote:And while you are waiting, count your blessings. For this to sort out within a few days is marvelous. Last time for us (several years ago), most things were settled after about two weeks, Most things.

I remember when everything was done via USPS first class mail. Modem? That was just for finances - when we finally did get a modem.

Wow... Sounds like you will be getting out your canes next and whacking each other over the head...

Even 2 years ago, much more could be done locally on MLS until the online systems caught up. Now there are quite a few that can only be done online, so until the permissions are there, the stake can't really function administratively. With a change in an existing stake, there are some folks that stick around and can keep things going, but with a new stake, we really are stuck until permissions turn on. Thus the urgency and impatience.

Now where did I put that cane?!

rickk wrote:Wow... Sounds like you will be getting out your canes next and whacking each other over the head...

I'm still a number of years away from retirement. Technology has been going at a very fast pace (but not as fast as members want it to go).

Based on the first computer my ward got (BM PS/ValuePoint), I think ward computers started around 23 years ago. I started clerking in a student ward, so I started young.

Sorry to break up the fun and get back to the LCR question, but as I record new people do they get the permissions once they are recorded as sustained or do they also need to be marked as set apart? For example, we just called a new auditor (it is that time of the year!), who does not need to be sustained so I can record him immediately. If I do not mark him as set apart yet, will he have the permissions on the audit system or is the set apart check box also required - meaning that I need to push the presidency to get that done right away among all of the other high priority items?

Rick

rickk wrote:Sorry to break up the fun and get back to the LCR question, but as I record new people do they get the permissions once they are recorded as sustained or do they also need to be marked as set apart?

No, setting apart has no effect on the permissions. Once they are recorded as having the calling, the process for granting permissions will be set in motion.