JavaFX

The last of the big three fighting it out in the realms of Rich Internet Applications, JavaFX is due to be launched on December the 2nd which is about a week away now. I think I will make cake. Everyone love cake....anyway it will be interesting to see how this pans out. Many would rightly point out that Flash dominates this space and it will be hard for any other technology to displace and already entrenched technology.

JavaFX is going to be open source too though this might be after a little while because I don't think it will be open source right from the initial version. I think the rationale here is to give it a bit of time settle down etc before openeing it up.

From a logical point of view it might not be successfull but I have been following the Podcast "This aint your dads Java" where JavaFX has been talked about a lot. The powers that be seem quietly confident about the success of JavaFX and I got a hint that they know about some things which have not been announced yet to make them confident. JavaFX is certainly comming late and comes after Silverlight 2 and Flash 10 have both been launched but at least it is comming. It will be interesting to see Java make a comback in the browser after it has been almost entirely displaced by flash in this area.

I don't know if anyone else besides me is waiting in anticipation of this launch. If It is then I guess I get to keep all the cake for myself.

Carl Jokl wrote:The last of the big three fighting it out in the realms of Rich Internet Applications, JavaFX is due to be launched on December the 2nd which is about a week away now. I think I will make cake. Everyone love cake....anyway it will be interesting to see how this pans out. Many would rightly point out that Flash dominates this space and it will be hard for any other technology to displace and already entrenched technology.

JavaFX is going to be open source too though this might be after a little while because I don't think it will be open source right from the initial version. I think the rationale here is to give it a bit of time settle down etc before openeing it up.

From a logical point of view it might not be successfull but I have been following the Podcast "This aint your dads Java" where JavaFX has been talked about a lot. The powers that be seem quietly confident about the success of JavaFX and I got a hint that they know about some things which have not been announced yet to make them confident. JavaFX is certainly comming late and comes after Silverlight 2 and Flash 10 have both been launched but at least it is comming. It will be interesting to see Java make a comback in the browser after it has been almost entirely displaced by flash in this area.

I don't know if anyone else besides me is waiting in anticipation of this launch. If It is then I guess I get to keep all the cake for myself.

As I recall (from a few months ago when I heard about Java FX) one of the cool things being promised with Java FX was the blurring of the line between the browser and the desktop. I personally really like the idea of making the particular platform you prefer (Windows, OS X, ...) simply a conduit to content rather than a gating factor for content access.

How does this topic relate to the Church? We need to keep discussions on the forums on the topic of Church Technology. So if we are to discuss this technology, lets direct our discussion on how it might affect the Church.

GarysTurn wrote:How does this topic relate to the Church? We need to keep discussions on the forums on the topic of Church Technology.

Everything and nothing at the same time.

I see commentary and reasonable exploration of emerging technologies as productive benefit serving to enlighten all of us. I recognize this thread doesn't have that connotation, but it appears to be fairly inactive....

But, for illustration, take http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2369

EDIT: I also note that I have a vested interest as the Church doesn't maintain equal features and support for WIndows vs. OS X and I use OS X unless I'm forced to use Windows.

Anything that offers potential to make a chosen platform a conduit rather than a gate I see as relevant.

tw.lbean wrote:
But, for illustration, take http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2369

Gosh, I'm the author of that other thread, and I had no notion that such things would engender controversy. In retrospect, I probably should have posted it in the "Emerging Technologies" section as this one was.

Sorry, but this site is dedicated to the topic of using technology in the church. There are many other sites to discuss technology for technology's sake.

Is there anything unique about JavaFX that opens doors to new possibilities in the church?

Please keep in mind that the church is usually a follower of enterprise trends, not the catalyst for change that some would like it to be. The only exceptions are when it's needed to move the work forward such as work for the dead or preaching the gospel.

Typically new technologies are employed only when the developers of new products or new versions see an advantage to switching.

tw.lbean,

First of all, GarysTurn is a moderator on these forums; I know you meant no disrespect with your disagreement, but I would ask that you respect his responsibilities on these forums. He takes countless volunteer hours per day to keep these forums a clean and focused discussion on Technology and how it applies to the work of the Church. This is the charge he has been given by employees of the Church as a Moderator on these forums.

tw.lbean wrote:Everything and nothing at the same time.

I see commentary and reasonable exploration of emerging technologies as productive benefit serving to enlighten all of us. I recognize this thread doesn't have that connotation, but it appears to be fairly inactive....

A thread cannot be inactive the same day it started. Also, the way this thread started off is not quite in-line with the purpose of this site. A casual conversation about a new technology does not belong on these forums (unless it relates directly to the Church); blog posts or discussion in other communities designed for such discussion are a better place for such casual conversation.

tw.lbean wrote: But, for illustration, take http://tech.lds.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2369

The thread you link to is quite similar in many respects; however, this thread we are in now did not start off with the same intention of discussing how the new technology could benefit some aspect of the work of the Church. That is why GarysTurn posted his comments. We as moderators discussed this thread for much of today. We did not feel the thread shout be removed, but that it should be pushed towards a discussion that is more in-line with the purpose of this site and forums.

tw.lbean wrote:EDIT: I also note that I have a vested interest as the Church doesn't maintain equal features and support for WIndows vs. OS X and I use OS X unless I'm forced to use Windows.

Anything that offers potential to make a chosen platform a conduit rather than a gate I see as relevant.

I think it's terrific we have some OS X people on these forums helping the Church reach out to more people through the means of a variety of platforms and technologies. Those discussions about the benefits of using currently unused technologies are most certainly welcome here. I trust we can all remain civil and respectful in our discussions, as there will most certainly be disagreements and obviously each of us have differing preferences within technologies.

Ok fine..how does it relate to the Church.

The Church already employs many people with Java skills. As such is wouldn't be so hard to make those skills transferable to JavaFX. Flash is not neccecarily bad but it requires an expensive development studio to work with and a separate skill set to develop. Given that the Church Website is Java Powered then it might not be too big of a leap to use JavaFX within the range of LDS websites to deliver rich content.

The one thing being used to distinguish JavaFX from other technologies is that it has been designed from the outset to run across not just multiple platforms but multiple devices too i.e. next year the Mobile Phone version of JavaFX will be launched as well as a version to run on digital tv equipment including things like Blu-Ray.

I must admit I get a bit annoyed by how just a little post can spark loads of controversy. Isn't a site like this as well as using technology to futher the work of the church also about building communities? If posting about a new technology sparks controversy and suggestion of just posting on another site maybe I will do that to the detrement of this site. I swear any other technology forum wouldn't be as picky and exacting about everything is this forum seems to be.

The last thing we want is to run someone off, but please understand this forum was put here for a special purpose. I think Jamie Childs put it much better then I possibly could in this blog he wrote a couple of weeks ago called How LDS Tech is Helping to Support the Local Unit. Like Brother Childs, I feel our purpose here is an important extension of the help and training found in the Serving in the Church --> Melchizedek Priesthood webpages for those perhaps new to their callings, or just curious how the Church uses technology to move the Lord's work forward.

Unfortunately, there are SO many new areas of technological growth in the world that we could easily dilute these forum topics with just a small portion of them, hindering the process of providing support to those that are searching for it. As such, our forum administrators have chosen to support discussing technologies the Church is directly involved in using, but have to draw the line if it's a technology we simply wish the Church would someday utilize.

As with most everything there are occasional exceptions, but I sincerely hope you can understand the reasoning behind why those in charge have asked that the forum be run this way.

Mike

I Believe that JavaFX holds potential to be used in projects relating to the Church however at this point it has not been released yet. Even if it is only a week away until it is formerly released work on making use of the technology in the church cannot begin in earnest. One key thing about JavaFX vs Flash which could open the scope of people using it is that Flash Studio is expensive. Major design houses and development studio's have deep pockets to afford it but many in the open source community especially if they are doing volunteer development projects could find JavaFX attractive because there isn't a cost barrier in using it. Even in the case of Silverlight Microsoft offers express versions of Visual Studio these days aknowleging that paying large up front costs to be able to use a technology can lock certain people out of using it.

If we don't discuss JavaFX then people here may well not be aware of what it is and what potential benefits it could have. One thing which could be of interest is that it will have flash like cross platform support for playing video. This could make it easier to stream things like General Conference and broadcasts to users of many different operating systems. In fairness Flash has allowed this too but with JavaFX there should not be a cost to developing it. Also JavaFX editing will be supported by the free Netbeans IDE and a pluggin for Eclipse is being developed by Sun. Many in the Adobe flash/flex community are more likely to be using Eclipse as their IDE of choice.

Increacing awareness I think is important because no-one is going to be using a technology which they have never heard of or for which they just are not aware of the capabilities.

Carl,

Your recent comments are perfectly in-line with the goals of this site. This is how the thread should have started in the first place. There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about a new technology, even one that isn't released yet; it just needs to relate to the work of the Church, even if it's 5-10 years away. The charge of this forum is not like any other community out there, and the Church has demanded that we continue to differentiate ourselves and remain focused on the goal.

GarysTurn asked that the thread be a little more focused on Church application of the Technology. Had the very next comment been exactly what you have now posted, there would have been no controversy and no hard feelings. Instead, the Moderator was challenged for doing his responsibility; that's disrespectful to someone who is giving volunteer hours per day to help the Church keep this site and forum clean and focused.

Alright, enough about that. I'd actually like to talk about the technology now, since you've got my interest peaked.

Carl Jokl wrote:I Believe that JavaFX holds potential to be used in projects relating to the Church however at this point it has not been released yet. Even if it is only a week away until it is formerly released work on making use of the technology in the church cannot begin in earnest. One key thing about JavaFX vs Flash which could open the scope of people using it is that Flash Studio is expensive. Major design houses and development studio's have deep pockets to afford it but many in the open source community especially if they are doing volunteer development projects could find JavaFX attractive because there isn't a cost barrier in using it. Even in the case of Silverlight Microsoft offers express versions of Visual Studio these days acknowledging that paying large up front costs to be able to use a technology can lock certain people out of using it.

If we don't discuss JavaFX then people here may well not be aware of what it is and what potential benefits it could have. One thing which could be of interest is that it will have flash like cross platform support for playing video. This could make it easier to stream things like General Conference and broadcasts to users of many different operating systems. In fairness Flash has allowed this too but with JavaFX there should not be a cost to developing it. Also JavaFX editing will be supported by the free Netbeans IDE and a pluggin for Eclipse is being developed by Sun. Many in the Adobe flash/flex community are more likely to be using Eclipse as their IDE of choice.

Increacing awareness I think is important because no-one is going to be using a technology which they have never heard of or for which they just are not aware of the capabilities.

So yes, Flash can be expensive to develop if you're going to get a good IDE. They open-sourced Flex or ActionScript or something a few months back, right? I haven't heard of any good free IDE's yet. That would certainly be a cost disadvantage to the Church as you mentioned.

As for Silverlight, I do the Church has a few .NET projects they work on, so they may already have licenses that could make Silverlight worthwhile. I have to admit though, Silverlight may not be as cross-platform as the Church might like (at least not yet). You can develop Silverlight for free using the Express Editions of Visual Studio and you won't be missing much by not having the full versions of the product. However, Microsoft has a product line called Expression that is pretty expensive and almost necessary for real design of Silverlight site and controls. That would be where the real costs seep in.

So JavaFX sounds interesting, especially the comment that Java developers would be able to jump right in. Do you know if it will use new or existing Java languages?

With Silverlight, you have to learn the new WPF syntax for the presentation UI and then you can use C#, VB, or any other .NET language (including IronRuby or IronPython) to do the back-end code. With Flash, it seems like it uses new languages that developers have to learn as well. It seems like there is quite a learning and training curve for developers to learn Flash or Silverlight.

Will JavaFX have the same problem?

One of the programmers who sits next to me showed me a JavaFX application he wrote and demonstrated at a recent developer meeting here at the Church. It was well received. With as many technical folks as we have at the Church, there are few new technologies that we are not exposed to. I agree with many of the sentiments around JavaFX vs Flash (especially from a cost perspective). This argument comes into play even more when you consider involving the community. The big negative from my perspective that JavaFX has (at least as far as the Church is concerned) is that JavaFX requires new training whereas we already have flash talent. Also, JavaFX requires a programmer where as Flash is created (to a large degree) by UI Designers.

Tom

Unfortunately there is a new language to be learned for JavaFX. JavaFX Script. This language is somewhat similar to JavaScript except that JavaFX Script is staticly typed as with Java itself. Much as it is called JavaFX Script the language compiles down to Java byte code and is built upon the Java platform particularly Swing and Java2D. The reason for the new scripting language is that it has been felt that plain Java is to heavy and difficult to learn for the Designer community. I can accept that there is a new language to learn and that would be a barrier. As regards the design side Sun is not trying to replace existing design tools infact a lot of work has been done on something called "Project Nile" which allows easy export of design work done in the Adobe family of products like Photoshop and Illustrator into a JavaFX project. That way designers and developers can focus on what they do best. The thing is though with JavaFX is that you can also write components of a project in plain Java where it is more appropriate to do so. How everything is going to pan out is hard to say given that it is not yet fully launched.

Lanuch date is now being advertised as the 4th of December but still now a week away.

We have many things in common. We are members, maybe leaders too, and we are technicians; so I think we can find solutions insteed of discussions.
Here is my contribute to solution.
Tech forum could be divided into sections.
For those who search helping in using church tech products (CTP).
For those who has suggestions to develop CTP.
For those who love explore new tech with church developpers and tech leaders.
Third section will be interesting thought that, as member, we don't look to the commercial market but to simplify and reduce costs for tech. This way it can be use it into other fields.
We know revelations came after deep reasoning (D&C 9:8)

Can the church encourage to learn english and java? (JSP, Struts, XSLT, XML, WEB Services, Hibernate, beans, swing, j2me)
Hello every one, my english is not good, But I´ll try to writte my concern,
Im from Mexico, currently we have a lot of java positions but we don´t have enough people with knowledge in java and english language. This could be a huge difference, a salary for java developer with english fluent could be $2,000 american dollars by month, without english and with knowledge in other language like vb.net or c# is like $1000 american dollars. Looking the forums I see the use of this technologie is growing, the opportunities are there but many members of the church dont have the skills and the money for study, and I was wondering if the church is able to encouraging with more force
to the LDS people to learn this technologie and learn english. I know President Thomas. S. Monson is very busy but may be a seventy presidency can help with this.
This topic could help to many members specially LDS Computer Science students to focus in the right way about what language learn. May be BYU could help creating special course for LDS.

I Apologize for my bad english.
P.D. Other technologie with many positions in Mexico is related with mainframe, we dont have people with this skills

Regards, Enrique

If I understand your question correctly, I think your best chance is to talk with the local LDS Employment office. They would be the ones most interested in helping members upgrade their employment skills.

While the church does have programs to teach languages to the members, I think it's to teach the local language, not a foreign language.

As for computer languages, I don't think the church would teach that except in Employment Centers or Vocational Schools.

The Perpetual Education Fund would seem to apply here as it's purpose was to help the locals gain an education and return to their society to help locally. This would have to be discussed with their local leadership as I don't have direct information on the fund itself other than I'm aware of its existence.

It's possible in a volonteer basis?
I mean, teach tech (Open Office, Pc maintenence, Programming languages, ecc.)?
I can teach a lot of them, as Missionaries teach english class here in Italy.

Getting back to JavaFX there is a potential missmatch in terms of impact between use in projects done internally within the Church organisation and other projects created by Chuch members for Church use but not official Chuch products. JavaFX has an advantage of lower cost of entry for those who don't have a thousand dollars to spend on Flash studio. The Church however is a wealthy institution and as such the cost of this kind of software is not likely to be a barrier to use. For individual members though who want to create a project then cost could be a very definate prohibitive factor.

I live in a First world country with a relatively well paid job and still don't have the money to afford to buy flash studio meaning that even if I wanted to learn and use flash then (short of software piracy) learning to use flash is prohibited to me by the cost. If that is the case for me in a first world country then I can only imagine things being even more difficult in a poorer country.

I think that this difference in needs can be a definate issue in the future between products developed for use internally within the Church vs those intended to be used by the Church membership as a whole. I think the Churchs traditional development of software for internal use given that it controlls its own hardware purchases and has no problem affording Microsoft Windows and Office etc has resulted in lots of Windows Only supported applications. I believe in particular in the developing world but also affecting poorer members even in the weathier countries the capability to target applications intended to be used by individual Church members on their own computers the importance of cross platform support (particularly for Linux users) becomes more important.

Carl,

Excuse my ignorance, but do I understand correctly that JavaFX is designed for developing web applications, and is not also useful for building local desktop apps that run outside a browser? Is there an equivalent to the Adobe AIR environment for RIA desktop apps?

And is there a potential issue with end users needing to install a runtime plug-infor the web apps to execute? My understanding is that Flash-enabled web sites do require users to install the Flash plug-in from Adobe, but Adobe has achieved a very large market penetration among end-users

Actually, I don't think cost of development is as big of a deal as hosting perhaps, especially for us community members. I agree it's probably not as big of a deal to the Church itself.

With Silverlight, you can develop a Silverlight app for free using an one of the Express editions of Visual Studio. There is a very expensive complimentary application for designers however. With Flash I think you can develop for free, but haven't seen a full-fledged free IDE. It would be nice to have JavaFX come in with its free offerings as well.

But even though you can develop Silverlight for free, I think hosting and cross-platform compatibility would be the issues. It seems you can only host Silverlight on IIS? A benefit to Flash and JavaFX would presumably be the open-source hosting environments and cross-platform compatibility.

At the Church we don't do a lot of flash. We are starting to do a lot of JQuery, however, which is a free Javascript/Ajax library.

Tom

JavaFX has now been launched for those who don't already know.

I expect as it is a version 1.0 that it may well have some performance problems or potentially bugs. I notice that some of the JavaFX apps can take a while to load though this might be that lots of people are rushing to check JavaFX out and this is slowing things down, ....or it could just be slow. When the applications get running though they are impressive.

tomw wrote:At the Church we don't do a lot of flash. We are starting to do a lot of JQuery, however, which is a free Javascript/Ajax library.

Tom

Perhaps they don't add up to "a lot", but the Church Music sub-site, the front page of mormon.org, perhaps more of mormon.org, and all the training at New FamilySearch are in Flash.

rmrichesjr wrote:Perhaps they don't add up to "a lot", but the Church Music sub-site, the front page of mormon.org, perhaps more of mormon.org, and all the training at New FamilySearch are in Flash.

Yes, it is true that mormon.org and FamilySearch do use Flash. I guess what I meant to say was that any projects that we would enlist the community on (at least currently on our radar) would not involve flash.

Tom