Translation of Hymns

I was recently made aware that most of the hymns in our hymn book are available only in a very few languages. Most languages have a very small subset of the hymns.

The reason is that it is very expensive and time consuming to translate hymns and the Church puts their resources on higher priority projects.

What is the chance of having an "open source" effort to translate the hymns into all languages? Perhaps like a Wiki where it can be a collaborative effort?

I suspect that the translation department isn't exactly thrilled about "uncontrolled" translations, but maybe we could provide them with a running jump at the rest.

Ken

I think the translation of hymns is likely one step down from translating the scriptures as far as making sure the translation is as correct as possible. Most translations of the scriptures are done by a committee of translators to assure that the thoughts and concepts are rendered as closely as possible in the target language.

Translating lyrics adds a significant level of complexity because not only must the concepts be rendered in the target language, they must also match the musical structure and phrasing of the hymn. Additionally, some idioms just don't translate well or have equivalents in the target language. For example, I'm still trying to find an equivalent for "feeling blue" in Spanish. The closest concept is "to be melancholy," but that just doesn't have quite the same connotation, not to mention its poetic unwieldiness.

Having said that, if you want to take a crack a translating hymns and submit your translations to the Church, I think that is a worthwhile effort. Just don't be surprised if your submission doesn't become the final product.

Translating lyrics adds a significant level of complexity because not only must the concepts be rendered in the target language, they must also match the musical structure and phrasing of the hymn.

We are living in a real world with is limits and imperfections.
I can assure you that some Italian Hymn Translation is bad in both, word and tempo (primerly saying in "cadenza").
If you know italian, or know some who know it, get it a look, there are also theological mistakes on it!
Open "source" doesn't mean "uncontrolled ". This forum is open!

I can't see doctrinal problems at Brazilian 1990 edition of Hymns, but some translations are far different from the original English translation. The English original is more beautifull and spiritual than Portuguese.

The tempo part for Italian is easy, if you know classical music, you can usually find the equivalent, since most serious music uses the Italian tempo/dynamic names and they are widely understood in the more serious music community.

So if you want to say something has a spirited feel and is on the fast side, you say 'Allegro con spirito' and everyone knows what you mean in Italian.

In other languages outside of English it can be tricky as well between languages when discussing tempos and feeling.

MorettiDP wrote:I can't see doctrinal problems at Brazilian 1990 edition of Hymns, but some translations are far different from the original English translation. The English original is more beautifull and spiritual than Portuguese.

I have noticed as well that the Spanish hymnbook sometimes lacked the same "depth" as the English meaning. The real problem is that you have to fit the meaning into the same number of syllables. From what I know of Spanish and Portuguese (and what my wife tells me about Japanese), these languages require significantly more syllables to convey the same information. For this reason, you have to simplify the message and try to retain the same essence.

I would imagine this becomes a sticky situation for General Conference translations where the speaker quotes from a hymn and is trying to convey a certain meaning which may or may not exist in different translations.

oregonmatt wrote:I would imagine this becomes a sticky situation for General Conference translations where the speaker quotes from a hymn and is trying to convey a certain meaning which may or may not exist in different translations.

It absolutely does. I translate for my ward and I usually ask for the talks in advance so that I have time to prepare the translation. Nothing is quite as frustrating as not getting a talk ahead of time, and then the speaker gets up and recites a poem! Add to that the fact that it takes in the neighborhood of 30% more words to express in Spanish an equivalent concept in English, coupled with the speed with which the average person in New Jersey speaks and, well, it just ain't pretty.

My english is too bad to explain exactly what I mean with "cadenza".
As you know, words and stuff has an "accent".
In some italian hymns they don't match so we have difficult to sing and understand too.
For "doctrinal mistakes" I can quote one for all:
"O my Pather" ("Padre mio").
There is is a sentence saying that the "human thougth say that we DON'T have only one parent in heaven, but the real reason say that we have a mother there". (?) Maybe not a mistake but a nonsense!

marianomarini_vi wrote:"O my Father" ("Padre mio").!

Father not Pather, of couse.

Tonight I'm very tired! (of course).

marianomarini_vi wrote:My english is too bad to explain exactly what I mean with "cadenza".
As you know, words and stuff has an "accent".
In some italian hymns they don't match so we have difficult to sing and understand too.

"Accent" would be an accurate word. Putting the wrong emphasis on syllables can make words quite unintelligible. This is just another difficulty with translating music.

marianomarini_vi wrote:For "doctrinal mistakes" I can quote one for all:
"O my Pather" ("Padre mio").
There is is a sentence saying that the "human thougth say that we DON'T have only one parent in heaven, but the real reason say that we have a mother there". (?) Maybe not a mistake but a nonsense!

I definitely won't get into a doctrinal discussion here, but you may want to check the English lyrics here.

marianomarini_vi wrote:My english is too bad to explain exactly what I mean with "cadenza".
As you know, words and stuff has an "accent".
In some italian hymns they don't match so we have difficult to sing and understand too.

The word you are probably looking for is scansion (It.: scansione?), which is a word most English speakers have never heard.

In other words, the musical rhythms aren't matched with the textual scansion well (if at all) in the Italian translations.

oregonmatt wrote:I definitely won't get into a doctrinal discussion here, but you may want to check the English lyrics here.

Or translated by Google here. (It seemed to have trouble with the words dwellest, single, stare, and royal courts, but I don't know Italian even if I can pronounce most of it.)

jbh001 wrote:The word you are probably looking for is scansion (It.: scansione?), which is a word most English speakers have never heard.

I don't think you have to go for such an exotic word -- the obvious cognate is cadence. But scansion is a cool word that I wasn't familiar with, so I appreciate you sharing it.

I'm currently living in Italy -- and will be for the next few years. I can't help but notice how awkward the hymns in the Italian hymnal are, with multiple syllables and even words scrunched together to try to fit into one note. The lyrics are neither compelling nor moving. Sorry translators. I know you did your best within the parameters you were given. I could certainly do no better.

I do understand how difficult it is to make these translations fit into a set musical cadenza, which brings me to my point: Why exactly are we trying to put a square peg into a round hole...?

There are a great many Italian hymns that have long been sung in Catholic and other Christian Churches across Italy that don't have any theological issues in them (We already have one by St. Francis of Assisi in the English hymnbook). I think it would be great if the Italian members could have these great Italian hymns added to their hymnal.

Italy is a land of great musicians and great music. If there is anywhere the music should be magnificent it is here. Yet despite voice talent in our area nobody ever sings a musical number. It's like music needs to be gotten out of the way.

Maybe Italians are being made to suffer through these watered down hymns because of concerns of uniformity -- but what value is there in this, really, other than when foreigners come to visit they get to feel comforatable with their favorite tunes...? I don't see the present set of severely weekened hymns really serving the Italian members all that well.

carolmay13 wrote:Why exactly are we trying to put a square peg into a round hole...?

There are a great many Italian hymns that have long been sung in Catholic and other Christian Churches across Italy that don't have any theological issues in them

I believe that more than just finding hymns that do not have any theological issues in them, there are some important theological teachings that the Church is trying to share throughout the world. And yes, this presents major challenges in any language. So, until someone comes a long who can do better (and I cannot, either), I think the hymns in the current book will have to continue to serve as best they can.

I am certain that the General Church Music Committee would welcome any suggestions you have, should you want to recommend any of those other hymns. I know that there are a few hymns in the Spanish and French languages that are in those hymnals and not in the English hymnal. Perhaps the same is true, or could be, for the Italian one.

When I had said to one of my friend (Lorenzo Rossato) that his work, as Italian Hymns Translator Leader, was realy poor He said to me.
I know that this shold be my duty but I never seen the Hymns BEFORE they was published!
When I founded some mistake (doctrinal or musical) I always called at him, Stake president, ecc. to made the appropriate correction.
The answer was always: "This is and this will be until new revision!".
So, we continue to sing: "I giudizi tempestivi cerca sempre di evitar" (Inno 145, I don't know in English).
This means that we need to evitate the "well-timed" judgment! The rigth word will be "intempestivi" but it will change a litle bit the relation between syllables-notes.
But we can use: "I giudizi frettolosi ....". This fit as well as "tempestivi" (tem-pes-ti-vi, fret-to-lo-si).
No way. It seem to me that Church is becoming like a dinosarus (a big body with a little brain). Legs falling into ditch waiting for a signal from "there, up above".