Purchasing music for youth dances

For the last several years, our stake has had members who have been DJ's for our youth dances. They have been wonderful to work with, and they have used their own music collection and have not charged us for their services. We recently asked them to purchase some music that would be reimbursed for youth conference. They were unable to find a cd at a reasonable price and would arrive on time, so they purchased the songs on iTunes. They did so reluctantly because it was purchased with their own iTunes account, and technically they "own" the music, not the stake. Because we have never had them purchase music just for us, we haven't come across this problem until now, but it adds a lot of complexity, and they really do not want to purchase music and build their own library using church funds.

We are looking into creating a stake itunes account that could be used to build a music library that could be used by our current djs, or by other someone else when they have different callings, move from the stake, etc... I wanted to know if anyone has done this, and if so, what have you done to make it work? Moving into the digital realm certainly makes things easier in some ways (a library of music, owned by the stake, that anyone could use to DJ makes the calling a little easier to fill without hiring someone to DJ) but the logistics and account management are a lot more complex than the days of CDs. Any input would be appreciated.

Looking at the terms and conditions, I'm not sure as a stake account would be "legal", as "Only persons age 13 years or older can create accounts."

ckarlinsey wrote:Any input would be appreciated.

How big do you want your "can of worms?"

While it won't give you answers, make a careful reading of Handbook 2: 21.1.12 Copyrighted Materials to understand the church's concern about the use of the copyrighted works.

russellhltn wrote:Looking at the terms and conditions, I'm not sure as a stake account would be "legal", as "Only persons age 13 years or older can create accounts."

That's a long user agreement from Apple. It's no wonder that the Stake's non-professional DJs are reluctant. Another part that stands out to me says that your iTunes account must be for personal, non-commercial use. A public performance of that music at at stake dance might be seen as non-commercial by some but it's certainly not an air-tight argument. But the part about "personal" use is clearly violated (to me).

The nice thing about hiring a professional DJ is that (I would think) he would be responsible for copyright clearances of the music he plays. But does the stake itself need to pay licensing fees to the music publishers in order to have a public performance in a stake building? I don't know. And I suspect that a lot of professional DJs themselves don't know what they're supposed to do and aren't aware of the licensing fees they should be paying.

Around here, we have a lot of attorneys in leadership positions in the stake. Do you? It might be time to have an informal chat with one of them about this.

Thanks to everyone for the responses. russellhltn and mmrad, I've been doing a little research myself on different platforms other than iTunes since we are not tied to anything at the moment (amazon music, google play, etc...) and it looks like they all have similar language about the licensing being for personal, non-commercial use. I'm not a lawyer myself, and it feels like I am venturing much further down the rabbit hole than I am qualified. I was brought into the conversation because they considered me more "tech savvy" and able to help with account management and logistics. I do have a friend in a nearby stake who is an attorney who may be able to at least point me in the right direction.

Thanks kisaac the laugh and for the mention of the handbook. I'm sure the copyrights and licensing of music for stake dances is the last thing anyone wants to spend too much time thinking about since we spend enough time just making sure there are chaperones and someone to help clean up after . I was hoping someone had dealt with this before and had a good solution or something that was working for them, but I came into it thinking I might get stuck dealing with the logistics and legalities.

ckarlinsey wrote:I was hoping someone had dealt with this before and had a good solution or something that was working for them, but I came into it thinking I might get stuck dealing with the logistics and legalities.

Back when I had that issue, music was still on a physical media. I don't remember any wording on them "for home use only". Maybe I didn't look close enough.

There was a time when our stake thought about it, but the leaders rejected it - it was felt the music was too perishable.

There are licensing requirements that seem to apply to DJ's in certain circumstances... I found some statements around private weddings, that seems to include a 'private' dance (The difference being the music is not being played in a 'public' venue)

“ASCAP does not license DJs. It is the venue, establishment, or promoter of an event that is responsible for public performance licensing, not the performer. Private events such as weddings, etc. are exempt from licensing.”
– Bryn Caryl, ASCAP

“BMI licenses the “public performance” of music… events such as private parties and weddings are not required to have a license.”
– Jaqui Garlan, BMI

“Royalty fees are not collected for private performances.”
– David Derryberry, SESAC

I don't see any reason that music someone has purchased and downloaded to a device can't be played at a church dance. Unless your dance is held at the UpTown Hip-to-the-Hop party town disco.

johnshaw wrote:There are licensing requirements that seem to apply to DJ's in certain circumstances... I found some statements around private weddings, that seems to include a 'private' dance (The difference being the music is not being played in a 'public' venue)

According to wikipedia, "Performances are considered "public" if they take place in a public place and the audience is outside of a normal circle of friends and family". I don't think a church dance can be considered just friends and family (unlike a wedding). But it's possible that the church is not considered a public place. But I wouldn't want to rely on that without a lawyer involved.

The same laws apply to music from CDs.
http://www.askamusiclawyer.com/archive/ ... -work.html

A quick Google search turned this up, as well:
http://www.christiancopyrightsolutions. ... rights.pdf

johnshaw wrote:I don't see any reason that music someone has purchased and downloaded to a device can't be played at a church dance. Unless your dance is held at the UpTown Hip-to-the-Hop party town disco.

The references sbradshaw provided indicate otherwise. A Church dance would be a public performance.

The pdf file describes the availability of a license that would work, although I would not want to put that into the annual youth budget. I believe there are other ways that are less expensive, but I have not gone out pricing recently.

Or a stake might find it within the budget to reimburse a member/DJ who does obtain the necessary licenses for part of his/her cost to provide music for the stake youth (and other) dances. Those would be annual fees, as well.

Did I mention "can of worms?"
I'm no lawyer, but I personally would feel very comfortable asking a ward member to come and play their music collection for a church dance, providing the Handbook principles for youth dances are followed, just as if you hired a DJ.
I see little difference between the ward members attending a "wedding" reception in the gym while he plays his collection, or those same members attending a "youth dance" in the gym while he plays it. Move that same "seminary graduation dance" outside of the church gym to the main street plaza or city park, and maybe you need some further discussion with a professional DJ to make sure you do it right.

Bringing this back to the OP question: I would feel uncomfortable purchasing music on Itunes (or any "download" account) that you might say will be "owned" by a church unit for those dances

kisaac wrote:I see little difference between the ward members attending a "wedding" reception in the gym while he plays his collection, or those same members attending a "youth dance" in the gym while he plays it.

Weddings are typically limited to the social network of the bride and groom. And the gathering has to do with the event itself. Church dances tend to be a wider group of people and music is central to the reason they are gathering there.

While the link that sbradshaw provided is from a company in the business of granting license, it does make a case that a youth gathering does need a license.