Calling outside of auxiliary/quorum = no access

I am the HPGL in my ward. My secretary's Priesthood office is Seventy. The LCR will not allow me to select him as my secretary because he is not a High Priest. As a result, he is unable to fulfill his Priesthood assignments. Can LCR be changed to allow this kind of scenario?

That's a good one. The Handbook specifically says "high priest" when describing the secretary's position. But given the history of the calling of Seventy, I think you've probably got a valid exception.

I'm assuming this is a Seventy from back when the Seventy were in the stakes? (Or are modern-day Seventy ordained to the office and their membership record reflects this?)

There was a great article in the Ensign several years ago about the history of the Seventy (link)

Quoting from President Benson (from 1986) in the article:

The seventies quorums in the stakes of the Church are to be discontinued, and the brethren now serving as seventies in these quorums will be asked to return to membership in the elders quorums of their wards. Stake presidents, in an orderly fashion, may then determine who among such brethren should be ordained to the office of high priest.

I found it interesting that the Seventy were to meet with the elders quorum at this time. Reading this, maybe the stake president should consider whether this brother should be ordained a High Priest.

Forward several more years to President Hinckley (from 1997) talking about General and Area Seventy:

Although the ordination to the office of Seventy is without term, a Seventy is called to serve in a quorum for a designated period of years. At the conclusion of this service, he will return to activity in his respective ward and stake and will meet with his high priests group.

Here it says they'll meet with the high priests.

In my mind, I've always thought that "High Priest" is greater than "Seventy" but reading a few things tonight, I'm not so sure. Are Seventy and High Priest two separate offices and you can actually be both?

Interesting. I had assumed that a seventy is higher than a high priest, but if that's not the case I'd have to change my answer and say LCR is just enforcing the Handbook.

After doing some research, I think the answer is that Seventy is separate from High Priest. At least, it is not higher nor supersede High Priest.

It's clear from the 1986 quote that stake seventies were not considered High Priests.

As for the general and area Seventies, many, if not all, were also ordained to High Priest. In that case, it makes sense for them to go back to the high priest group. You can see that in The Saga of Revelation: The Unfolding Role of the Seventy. In 1961, 4 members of the First Council of the Seventy were ordained high priests. In 1976 all members of the First Quorum were ordained.

So, I think the upshot here is that per Handbook 2: 7.3.3, unless the brother in question was also ordained a high priest, he is ineligible to be a secretary of the high priests group. LCR is simply enforcing the Handbook. Of course one possible solution is to have him ordained a high priest.

Enter the bureaucracy. This is where the LCR's strength will disappear. Here is where we encounter issues with enforcing roles and access based on priesthood office. A stake president and bishop are moved by the spirit to have a brother meet with and serve in the High Priest Group even though he is not ordained a HP. Unfortunately, the brother is unable to perform the minimal amount of his calling because he does not have access.
There must be a way to allow access in a case like this. If the means doesn't exist yet, it should be included. When I consider this particular brother, fulfilling this calling is a large step in his progression. It frustrates me that access & role bureaucracy stand in the way. A solution similar to how out-of-unit callings are handled is required. In the mean time, maybe I'll give him my username and password. I have no objections to him logging in as me so he can perform basic duties.

troutface wrote:Enter the bureaucracy. This is where the LCR's strength will disappear. Here is where we encounter issues with enforcing roles and access based on priesthood office. A stake president and bishop are moved by the spirit to have a brother meet with and serve in the High Priest Group even though he is not ordained a HP. Unfortunately, the brother is unable to perform the minimal amount of his calling because he does not have access.
There must be a way to allow access in a case like this. If the means doesn't exist yet, it should be included. When I consider this particular brother, fulfilling this calling is a large step in his progression. It frustrates me that access & role bureaucracy stand in the way. A solution similar to how out-of-unit callings are handled is required. In the mean time, maybe I'll give him my username and password. I have no objections to him logging in as me so he can perform basic duties.

According to the handbook section russellhltn mentioned, even prospective elders can serve as assistant secretaries. If assistant secretaries have the appropriate access then this brother could be called instead as an assistant secretary. That would conform to the policies listed in then handbook while still providing this brother the opportunity to serve.

If assistant secretaries do not have access or if assistant secretaries must be High Priests in LCR then that would be more likely to be changed because it wouldn't be in line with the handbook.

Keep in mind the developers work under the direction of the Priesthood Department - who should be well acquainted with inspiration - and it's limits.

Two work arounds have been identified: Assistant secretary and ordaining him to high priest.

russellhltn wrote:Two work arounds have been identified: Assistant secretary and ordaining him to high priest.

I would call the first a workaround, and the second a solution. [smile]

A short off-topic history. Ignore if you wish.

Seventy and High Priest are two different offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Until 1986, men in stakes were ordained to the office of seventy and their primary function was missionary work. There are still a few members who hold this office who have never been ordained high priests. Our stake has one of two of them.

Today, we know seventies as either Area Seventies or general authorities. These are men who normally have served in callings that required their ordination to the office of high priest with the primary function to administer in the Church. Bishoprics, high councilors, and stake presidencies are ordained high priests.

When men are called as Area Seventies or general authorities today, most already have been ordained high priests. (Most were stake presidents). If they have never been ordained to the office of seventy in the Melchizedek Priesthood, they are ordained to that office. Interestingly, if they were once ordained a seventy (this would have been up until 1986), they are not ordained a seventy again.

So a seventy ordained up until 1986 may be meeting with the high priests group but not have been ordained a high priest. In our modern day, an Area Seventy or general authority who is released returns to the high priests group as an already ordained high priest. One can be the secretary, one cannot.

I think LCR is too young to remember any of this. I am older than LCR.

russellhltn wrote:Keep in mind the developers work under the direction of the Priesthood Department - who should be well acquainted with inspiration - and it's limits.

Two work arounds have been identified: Assistant secretary and ordaining him to high priest.

Neither of these suggested work-arounds provides a solution:
1. His name doesn't appear when I try to add him as an assistant secretary. Apparently that functionality is reserved for prospective elders at this time.
2. Ordaining him as a HP is not a proper solution

troutface wrote:1. His name doesn't appear when I try to add him as an assistant secretary. Apparently that functionality is reserved for prospective elders at this time.

I'd report that as a bug in the app's feedback links.

Out of curiosity, if his office is recorded as Seventy, does he appear in the High Priests or Elders rolls? Can more than one office be recorded on a membership record at one time?

Wow, I just happened to pick a high priest in our ward and it turns out he was ordained a Seventy in the 1980s. HIs record shows his ordination dates for Elder, Seventy, and High Priest.

So, I think the answer is, that if someone is recorded as a Seventy, it doesn't matter in terms of Elders/High Priests. If he's ordained an Elder and not a High Priest, he would default to Elders. If he's been ordained a High Priest, then he'll default to the High Priest group.

I imagine that would mean that anyone who is called to one of the quorums of the Seventy now would need his ordination to Seventy recorded by church headquarters. To me, that also clarifies the original question that started this thread: The brother would need to be ordained a High Priest to serve in the calling. Seventy is a different ordination and is not a High Priest.

sbradshaw wrote:Out of curiosity, if his office is recorded as Seventy, does he appear in the High Priests or Elders rolls? Can more than one office be recorded on a membership record at one time?

As mevans said, all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinations are recorded and can be seen on the local membership record. If he was ordained a seventy but never a high priest, he defaults to the elders quorum. If he was ordained a high priest, he is in the HP quorum.

The membership record appears to maintain all Melchizedek Priesthood ordination dates. It works differently than Aaronic Priesthood, where only the most recent ordination is maintained, and once you're ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, the Aaronic priesthood ordinations are not maintained.

I believe even in the past that everyone had to be ordained an Elder first. If I'm wrong, then you could have a Seventy who was never an Elder and I don't know what would happen.

mevans wrote:I believe even in the past that everyone had to be ordained an Elder first. If I'm wrong, then you could have a Seventy who was never an Elder and I don't know what would happen.

In my lifetime, "faithful elders" were considered to be ordained to the office of seventy. And often they first were called as stake missionaries and expected to serve successfully there before they were ordained a seventy.

Your assessment of how priesthood ordinations currently display on membership records is correct.

Some thoughts related to this thread:

LCR enforces the requirements in the Handbook. Handbook 2 is fairly clear that the secretary in the high priests group must be a high priest.

troutface wrote:His name doesn't appear when I try to add him as an assistant secretary. Apparently that functionality is reserved for prospective elders at this time.

We received direction at one point to require a high priest ordination for an assistant secretary. We got approval to change this to match the Handbook and that has been changed. You should now be able to record the calling of assistant secretary for someone who has not been ordained a high priest.