Satellite Problems

During last night's Marriage broadcast to units in California we experienced some severe reception problems.
It started about 20-30 minutes into the broadcast when the screen went black (no audio/video). The only thing we had was an error message "Error Mode" or words to that effect. A few seconds later it all came back on. Then over the balance of the broadcast we had intermittent reception problems where the picture and audio would freeze for a couple of seconds then come back. We had the "error" screen a few more times as well.

The status light on the receiver would go from steady green to blinking red.
We had the receiver replaced about a year ago so I hate to think that it's going out again, although it's a possibility.

A call to the satellite support desk didn't help as they said the problem wasn't at their end. We were hesitant to have them reset the receiver since it was working when I made the call and I didn't want to lose any more of the content.

I also noticed that the closed captioning wasn't there, however, this was the result of a decision by someone in SLC to not include the CC with this broadcast. A poor decision since we had several members from our deaf branch who were there to watch the broadcast and they had to rely upon someone to translate into sign language for them.

I'm wondering if anyone else experienced problems during this broadcast that were similar to these?

While I didn't see this due to being in Utah, we had a similar glitch right at the end of the priesthood session of Conference.

There had been rain all day here in Provo. It apparently had quit briefly near the end as it wasn't raining when I left the building.

I'm just wondering then if something was going with some of the equipment here and there. Anyone else have that glitch at the end of the priesthood session? Is this also similar to your experience last night?

JamesAnderson wrote:While I didn't see this due to being in Utah, we had a similar glitch right at the end of the priesthood session of Conference.

I contacted an adjacent stake last night following the broadcast and they reported a very brief (5-10 seconds) problem during the marriage broadcast. Aside from that everything was fine.

Whatever it is it's beginning to look like it's at our end. I've contacted the local FM group and made a report. Hopefully we can get this fixed before the CES broadcast next month.

We had an error that said we were not authorized. After spending 20 minutes on the phone we rebooted the receiver, and it worked fine. Unfortunately we missed the first 10 minutes.

bjhom wrote:We had an error that said we were not authorized. After spending 20 minutes on the phone we rebooted the receiver, and it worked fine. Unfortunately we missed the first 10 minutes.

That same error appeared on our screen as well. I considered a reboot, but I didn't wish to lose any more content. Had I realized at the time that we were destined to enjoy many more outings I would have rebooted. Thanks!

"Marriage broadcast"? Nobody told me anything about that.

We used to have a fit of problems with our system, but it's gone away now. I'm not sure what happened as we still have our original receiver. The FM group may have had the dish re-aligned.

In talking with the support folks about our system, what I've learned is that we still have our original dish, a Scientific Atlanta. A good dish in it's day, but it was only designed for a certain "width" of sight (measured in degrees). Unfortunately more and more satellites are being launched. Many use the same frequencies. If your dish sees more then one sat and that other sat becomes active on that frequency during your program, you can have reception problems. They range from digital artifacts, loss of signal, to spontaneous reboot of the receiver.

"not authorized" is a normal occurrence for an encrypted broadcast after a reboot/reset until the receiver gets what it needs.

I remember seeing information years ago (during the analog time era) that the dish needed to be aligned periodically as wind and ground settling could cause the aim to "drift". However with the move to digital, I don't think it's practical for us to aim our own dish as the signal strength indicator isn't reliable for use in aiming. I guess it has to be done professionally.

Given that two stakes had problem, I suspect it's a interfering signal. One stake has a little bigger dish aim problem then the other.

Edit: To explain the problem a bit better, orbital mechanics dictate that geosynchronous satellite (those that appear stationary) must be located above the earth's equator. More satellites means that they get crowded closer together in a line. To use the same equipment, they use the same frequency band. So it's up to your dish to "select" the right "bird" and ignore it's neighbor. Since not all channels are in use 24/7 on all birds, the interference can seem "random" in some broadcasts are fine, and others are a nightmare.

Russell,

The "marriage" broadcast was specifically for California as we're currently dealing with a ballot issue regarding marriage.

In regards to the satellite problems, when we had the receiver replaced a year ago we also had the FM group check the alignment of the dish. At that time everything was good. However, your comment about adjacent satellites is an interesting one. The dish we have is the original dish which was placed on the site when the building was new and that's been a couple of decades at least.

One of my thoughts last night was that we had someone outside near the dish getting into some mischief, but we checked and didn't find anyone I'm still not convinced that it's at our end, so we're going to have to jump through the hoops and at least have the receiver and perhaps the dish alignment checked again.

Techgy wrote:The "marriage" broadcast was specifically for California as we're currently dealing with a ballot issue regarding marriage.

Ah, BTDT. Good luck.


Look at it this way - General Conference was just last week. Add in Women's General Conference and the receiver has had 11.5 hours of operation - but all on weekends. Now during a weekday broadcast you get nailed. Sounds like a scheduling conflict with a neighboring sat to me.

If I remember right, the original dishes from the 80's were designed for 4 degree separation but today the sats are 2 degrees apart. Some of those old dishes were better then their specs and still work. But I think the only way you'd know is if you have problems.

Oh, and if there's any way to tell if it's interference as opposed to a weak signal, no one has told me. So it's easy to be running in circles. So I think the only solution is to call the pros. But unless they can figure out the schedule of the neighboring sats, I don't know how much even they can do.

RussellHltn wrote:Ah, BTDT. Good luck.


Look at it this way - General Conference was just last week. Add in Women's General Conference and the receiver has had 11.5 hours of operation - but all on weekends. Now during a weekday broadcast you get nailed. Sounds like a scheduling conflict with a neighboring sat to me.

Russell,
We had one screen blackout during the afternoon session of conference.
This may be one of those "shotgun" situations that you fix by replacing things until you no longer have the problem. At the moment it's in the hands of the FM group.

One more thing. We've had the current dish for years and the receiver for about a year. In that time it's been working perfectly. I would guess that in that period of time that if it was an interferance issue that we'd had seen it before now. My money's still on the hardware from the point of view that something's going out. I plan on going by the building this afternoon after work and checking all the cables to be sure everything's tight.

JamesAnderson wrote:Anyone else have that glitch at the end of the priesthood session?

Not in Layton, UT. Solid signal clean through.

Does anyone know if they going to make the special broadcast available for download? Being a former Californian, I would very much like to see it.

I don't know whether a copy will be available or not.
Our stake president requested that we not record it.

I suppose that Tom might be able to check with someone and find out

RussellHltn wrote:"not authorized" is a normal occurrence for an encrypted broadcast after a reboot/reset until the receiver gets what it needs.

. . . I suspect it's a interfering signal.

This sounds as if it would have been an encrypted broadcast. This makes it more difficult for the receiver to get the signal, and sometimes results in more errors. The priesthood session of general conference is also encrypted. That is why you will have problems with that session more often than with the other general sessions, or the YW or RS broadcasts.

The sun fade cycle is also around this time of the year, but that should not have been a problem for an evening broadcast.

lajackson wrote:The sun fade cycle is also around this time of the year, but that should not have been a problem for an evening broadcast.

When I contacted the Satellite Support Desk I was told that they had experienced a few minutes of problems for units on the west coast around the afternoon of General Conference due to the angle of the sun and the dish being aimed at each other. This occurs every year about this time and I'm afraid I don't have the faith to move the sun out of the way It usually lasts for a few minutes.

The broadcast we had problems with began at 7:30 PM and by that time the sun was well down.
My goal in posting this thread was to see if any other units in California may have experienced a problem.

Encryption does put a little more stress on marginal setups.

In my experience, sun outages can last 10 minutes or so but then they are done. If your dish is the type that has the feedhorn right in the middle of the dish, then look at where the shadow of the feedhorn is on the dish. If it's right in the center, you've got a sun problem.

Keep in mind that most satellite channels are not in use 24/7. The are brought up "as needed" for a game, a news cast or whatever may be going on. Your one and only clue is that they are most likely to start/end right around the top or bottom of the hour.

RussellHltn wrote:...
I remember seeing information years ago (during the analog time era) that the dish needed to be aligned periodically as wind and ground settling could cause the aim to "drift". However with the move to digital, I don't think it's practical for us to aim our own dish as the signal strength indicator isn't reliable for use in aiming. I guess it has to be done professionally.
...

Several years ago, when I was a stake satellite equipment operator, a tech. support person from Church headquarters said aiming should be done by signal quality or signal, signal to noise ratio, Eb/No rather than signal strength. He said there is an nearby satellite with a much stronger signal, and if we aim our dishes by signal strength we will be pointing closer to that satellite and will get inferior signal quality. The situation may have changed, but the advice is likely still valid.

RussellHltn wrote:Encryption does put a little more stress on marginal setups.

In my experience, sun outages can last 10 minutes or so but then they are done. If your dish is the type that has the feedhorn right in the middle of the dish, then look at where the shadow of the feedhorn is on the dish. If it's right in the center, you've got a sun problem.

Keep in mind that most satellite channels are not in use 24/7. The are brought up "as needed" for a game, a news cast or whatever may be going on. Your one and only clue is that they are most likely to start/end right around the top or bottom of the hour.

Thanks for those great tips, especially using the geometry of the center-fed dish as a sun-dial to detect sun crossings.

When our dish was re-aimed a year ago, I was at work. I DO recall a conversation afterwards with the FM employees who adjusted it. I believe they mentioned that they had tried to adjust it but the signal they were getting at that time was the strongest they could get. I also don't know what equipment was used to do the adjusting.

Everyone's comments have been very helpful. I plan on passing them along. It might be necessary to have a professional come out and check out the entire system.

At our Stake building, the satellite receiver is a Wegener. It's really hot and the fan doesn't like to work all the time so we have an external fan on it. I was told it won't be replaced until it dies completely. It seems to be one tough unit as it's had this heat problem for over a year now.

During all of Conference it ran well. We did have a couple of red light times during the Church News between sessions on Saturday. We also experienced a few seconds of "Not Authorized" at the beginning of Priesthood. A call to the Satellite Desk and I was told the problem was on their end and had been corrected (and it had).

During the California only Marriage broadcast we had no problem at all. I was also told by the Stake President not to record the broadcast.

Due to the distance from the dish, our normal led color code is 2 flashing yellow. That seems to be permanent.

The fan has been a source of concern to me. It's noisy and I imagine must be small. My experience with computers is the reliability of the fan is inversely proportional to the size. Not to mention that forced air cooling is a major dust magnet.

So one time I finally pulled the case off of it (after consulting with support over all the problems we had) and to my surprise found almost no dust at all. The fan is a squirrel cage type, not the little propeller type I had been expecting.

All this reminds me, when we had a problem I worked the phone on satellite support describing the problem. I ended up with a ticket number which I gave to the FM group. Likewise Satellite Support had all the info needed to talk to the FM group. I don't know what was done, but it's been working OK since.

avskip wrote: Due to the distance from the dish, our normal led color code is 2 flashing yellow. That seems to be permanent.

How far is the receiver from the dish? Our receiver is on the south side of the building and the receiver is on the north side so the cabling has to run into the building up and across the widest portion of the facility and back down into where the receiver is located. I'd make a guess that the distance is a couple of hundred feet easily perhaps more.

Since you're dealing with a digital signal the strength of the signal isn't as important as the quality. If you haven't had it done, you may wish to have someone run a check of the alignment. I'm guessing that you've already confirmed that the dish is clean and has no obstructions.

RussellHltn wrote:The fan has been a source of concern to me. It's noisy and I imagine must be small. My experience with computers is the reliability of the fan is inversely proportional to the size. Not to mention that forced air cooling is a major dust magnet.

So one time I finally pulled the case off of it (after consulting with support over all the problems we had) and to my surprise found almost no dust at all. The fan is a squirrel cage type, not the little propeller type I had been expecting..

Most of the receivers are mounted high from the floor inside a cabinet so they're not subject to the dust that collects near the floor or on a desktop like a computer would be. I'd guess that the design of the fan probably had less to do with the dust than the location of the equipment.

Techgy wrote:Since you're dealing with a digital signal the strength of the signal isn't as important as the quality.

Not necessarily. Everything works great until it doesn't. That yellow light is a warning that the signal reaching the receiver is getting close to the level of "not working". I believe it's based on signal to noise rather the raw signal strength. Among other things it probably indicates that you don't have enough fade margin to take care of weather events or other things that can naturally cause the signal strength to weaken.

Since the problem is said to be the length of the cable, a good preamp placed close to the dish may be the solution.

One should also check for trees growing up in the path of dish.

Russell,

As I said, the quality of the signal is more important than the strength although both are related
A pre-amp would be a good idea, but before I jump onto that wagon, I'd get a professional out to investigate the possibilities and perform a thorough evaluation of the system. These systems are paid for out of tithing funds and it's important that it be done right the first time.

Techgy wrote:When our dish was re-aimed a year ago, I was at work. I DO recall a conversation afterwards with the FM employees who adjusted it. I believe they mentioned that they had tried to adjust it but the signal they were getting at that time was the strongest they could get. I also don't know what equipment was used to do the adjusting.

Everyone's comments have been very helpful. I plan on passing them along. It might be necessary to have a professional come out and check out the entire system.

The FM group was seeking "the strongest [signal] they could get"??? That sounds like they may have made the mistake the satellite support person at Church headquarters had warned me about. If your signal quality is poor, it might be worth calling support about it.

avskip wrote:At our Stake building, the satellite receiver is a Wegener. It's really hot and the fan doesn't like to work all the time so we have an external fan on it. I was told it won't be replaced until it dies completely. It seems to be one tough unit as it's had this heat problem for over a year now.

During all of Conference it ran well. We did have a couple of red light times during the Church News between sessions on Saturday. We also experienced a few seconds of "Not Authorized" at the beginning of Priesthood. A call to the Satellite Desk and I was told the problem was on their end and had been corrected (and it had).

During the California only Marriage broadcast we had no problem at all. I was also told by the Stake President not to record the broadcast.

Due to the distance from the dish, our normal led color code is 2 flashing yellow. That seems to be permanent.

The flash and color codes are described in the receiver manual, and it can be downloaded from the Weggener site. Here's the URL for the 500IP: http://www.wegener.com/SUPPORT/pdf/arch ... 01E-OL.PDF
Two amber blinks means "Marginal Eb/No (and locked on carrier)".

Techgy wrote:How far is the receiver from the dish? Our receiver is on the south side of the building and the receiver is on the north side so the cabling has to run into the building up and across the widest portion of the facility and back down into where the receiver is located. I'd make a guess that the distance is a couple of hundred feet easily perhaps more.

Since you're dealing with a digital signal the strength of the signal isn't as important as the quality. If you haven't had it done, you may wish to have someone run a check of the alignment. I'm guessing that you've already confirmed that the dish is clean and has no obstructions.

While it's true that signal quality is more important than signal strength, signal strength has a significant influence on quality. The signal between the LNB and the receiver is very much an analog signal susceptible to signal strength issues if the signal at the receiver is anywhere near the noise floor of the receiver. Modern Church installations use RG11 cable between the dish and the receiver. Formerly, RG6 was used if the cable length was not more than 100 feet. If you have a cable run much longer than 100 feet with RG6 cable, it might be worth asking Church support if a cable upgrade might help.

There are also preamps that can be installed near the dish to boost the signal to make up for cable losses. However, make sure the preamp won't block the DC power the LNB needs.

Techgy wrote:As I said, the quality of the signal is more important than the strength although both are related

What is the proper term for what you're calling "quality"? I'd think it would be the signal to noise ratio (s/n) and my understanding is the LED is triggered by low s/n. So if my understanding is correct, if the yellow light is on, the "quality" is marginal.

Techgy wrote:A pre-amp would be a good idea, but before I jump onto that wagon, I'd get a professional out to investigate the possibilities and perform a thorough evaluation of the system. These systems are paid for out of tithing funds and it's important that it be done right the first time.

Agreed. A noisy preamp would actually make things worse. But if the problem is the loss in the long coax run, then a low-noise preamp is likely the most cost effective solution. And the pro's job is to determine the source of the problem and the right fix.

Our signal strength is good in spite of the length of the run.
I brought up this thread due to the problems we encountered during the California Marriage broadcast.
We're both in agreement. When I said quality I was referring to just that - signal to noise ratio, etc.

Nuf said.

Techgy wrote:During the Marriage broadcast to units in California we experienced some severe reception problems.
It started about 20-30 minutes into the broadcast when the screen went black (no audio/video). The only thing we had was an error message "Error Mode" or words to that effect. A few seconds later it all came back on. Then over the balance of the broadcast we had intermittent reception problems where the picture and audio would freeze for a couple of seconds then come back. We had the "error" screen a few more times as well.

The status light on the receiver would go from steady green to blinking red.

In an effort to close the loop on this report I offer the following.
Last week I met an engineer at the building for an evaluation of the problem we had reported. As usual everything was working exceptionally well. The signal Eb/No was up to a 12 or higher. He monitored the signal for some time while he snooped through the satellite cabinet in the hopes of finding something that may have caused the intermittent problem.

The only thing that he found was a loose "barrel" connector on the video feed from the dish. He said that it took around 8-10 turns of the connector to tighten it. This would have been enough to cause an intermittent condition. The last time this line was touched was when the FM group installed a new receiver two years ago, so it's possible that the connection was never tightened completely.

He also added another tid-bit which I thought would be interesting to pass along. He told me a story that happened a few years ago during the Nauvoo
Temple dedication. Instructions had been given to all stakes that were to receive the broadcast to; 1) Do Not Record It, and 2) Disconnect the wireless transmitter for the hard of hearing because they didn't want the signal leaving the building and being recorded.

This engineer said that he personally went around to several buildings and disconnected the transmitter. During the broadcast one stake presidency had told someone to "record the broadcast". When the broadcast started the building that had the recording going suddenly lost the signal. Not one person in the facility saw the dedication.

The next day this same engineer was called in to find the problem. Nothing was ever found and he told me that to this day he's never had another call for that facility.:rolleyes:

Techgy wrote:The only thing that he found was a loose "barrel" connector on the video feed from the dish. He said that it took around 8-10 turns of the connector to tighten it.

Just curious, was this connector located indoors or outdoors?

Mikerowaved wrote:Just curious, was this connector located indoors or outdoors?

Indoors in the satellite receiver cabinet which is kept locked.

When we experienced similar blackouts during general conference a few years ago, we got remarkable improvement by wiping the satellite receiver element cover with a handkerchief. Dust and hard water deposits had created a thin film that was interfering with the signal.

1slim_jim wrote:When we experienced similar blackouts during general conference a few years ago, we got remarkable improvement by wiping the satellite receiver element cover with a handkerchief. Dust and hard water deposits had created a thin film that was interfering with the signal.

Thanks for the suggestion 1slim_jim and welcome to the Tech Forum. It's something to check, however, the engineer who came to the building was pretty thorough. He went out to the dish and checked, although I don't know if he actually wiped anything off. The signal was extremely high to the point where he was impressed. So my feeling at this point is that it was the loose connector. However, I'm also not opposed to cleaning the LNB area of the dish.

Lucky you. Ours bumps around 9.0. Sometimes a bit lower. I think the yellow light comes on around 8.8 or so. We used to be up around 11 or so. Not sure what happened.

[quote="techgy"]During last night's Marriage broadcast to units in California we experienced some severe reception problems.It started about 20-30 minutes into the broadcast when the screen went black (no audio/video). The only thing we had was an error message "Error Mode" or words to that effect. A few seconds later it all came back on. Then over the balance of the broadcast we had intermittent reception problems where the picture and audio would freeze for a couple of seconds then come back. We had the "error" screen a few more times as well.[/quote]

If the signal was intermittent there are 2 possibilities as to your problem, but both are solvable the same way.

If the broadcast was encrypted, then the glitch is because the receiver was not getting it encryption key due to a low signal level.

If the broadcast was not encrypted, then the signal level was so low that the receiver could not get all of the information to decode the stream into it’s a/v components.

Either way the dish needs to be examined for obstructions, and damage, if none are found you (the FM group) should hire a qualified A/V contractor to re-aim the Satellite Dish.
On a side note keep track of the error messages, they are all diffrent and will help in determining what your exact issue is. (I know it's tool ate for hta now, but in the future...)

RussellHltn wrote: I think the yellow light comes on around 8.8 or so. We used to be up around 11 or so. Not sure what happened.

Over Time the satellite dish will start to settle and lose it's shape as that happens, Eb/No will decrease. But good news it can be fixed. Usually with some basic hand tools, a little patience, and some know how. I would let your FM group know the signal level is degrading, and they can decide who they should call to fix it (string the dish), or have it replaced.

RussellHltn wrote:Since the problem is said to be the length of the cable, a good preamp placed close to the dish may be the solution.

Let your FM know, they can order these directly from CHQ, and their fairly cheep.