Another question on "Send Message"

I'm already aware that members whose e-mail addresses are listed as "Private" don't receive e-mail messages sent by leaders. However, I've run into something else odd:

(1) When the head of household is listed as "Stake visibility" but the spouse is listed as "Private," NEITHER receives an e-mail message with "Send a message."

(2) When the head of household is listed as "Private" and the spouse doesn't have an e-mail address listed, the spouse DOES receive a message through the household e-mail address if it is listed as "Stake visibility." (I don't remember what happens if the head of household is listed as "Private" and the spouse is listed as "Stake visibility"--probably the spouse receive the message, but I'd have to check.)

The first of these seems very odd; the second seems odd mainly in contrast to #1.

Any way to deal with this problem?

Brwiyoung wrote:(2) When the head of household is listed as "Private" and the spouse doesn't have an e-mail address listed, the spouse DOES receive a message through the household e-mail address if it is listed as "Stake visibility." (I don't remember what happens if the head of household is listed as "Private" and the spouse is listed as "Stake visibility"--probably the spouse receive the message, but I'd have to check.)

This is exactly how I would expect it to work. It follows the rule that if an person does not have an individual email address, then the household email address is used. And of course the privacy settings for the household email address would control its visibility and use. I see nothing at all wrong with this.

I'd have to do more research to comment on your other issue. But regardless of how that might be working (or not working), I still think your #2 is working correctly.

Brwiyoung wrote:When the head of household is listed as "Stake visibility" but the spouse is listed as "Private," NEITHER receives an e-mail message with "Send a message."

Could you provide some additional information?

• What messaging group is selected?
• What calling does the person sending the message have - and is it a stake or ward calling?
• Is there a household e-mail address and what is the visibility setting for it if there is one?
• Are the e-mail addresses the same or different for each spouse?
• Is the household e-mail address the same as one of the spouse e-mail addresses and what is the household e-mail address visibility setting if a spouse e-mail addresses is the same as the household e-mail address?

The first two questions may not factor into the issue. But the last three questions may have bearing on the problem.

Thanks for the replies. Good questions--which I'll answer in a moment.

First of all, I should say that virtually never (if ever) have any of the members of our ward deliberately chosen the "Private" setting. Either it was the default or what the clerk inadvertently put. Members sometimes ask, "Why are we not getting e-mails from the bishop?" and we learn they have a "Private" setting. Of course, we need to get permission to change the settings.

The second scenario I described does seem appropriate, except in contrast to the first one, where the head of household setting does not govern what happens. (In other words, both the head of household setting and the personal setting of the individual who is the head of household are "Stake visibility," but that individual does not get e-mails when the spouse's setting is "Private.")

In answer to the questions posed:
>Messaging group selected: In the most recent case I checked, it was "All members."
>Calling of the person sending the message: Bishop (so a ward calling)
>Household e-mail address and setting: In the cases I've checked, there is a household e-mail, and its setting is either "Stake visibility" or "Ward visibility."
>Spouses' addresses: In these cases, each spouse has a different e-mail address. The husband's is also the household e-mail address; the wife's personal e-mail address is different.
>Settings of the two addresses: As noted, the husband's e-mail address is set as "Ward visibility" or "Stake visibility" both when listed as the household e-mail address and the husband's individual e-mail address. The wife's setting (in these cases) is "Private."

I don't see anything in these details that would explain why the head of household (in the cases I've looked at, the husband) does not receive an e-mail sent to "All members." Despite having an e-mail address with the setting of "Ward visibility" or "Stake visibility," his name is listed among the "155 recipients [who] have opted out or do not have an email address in Ward Directory / MLS."

Brwiyoung wrote:I don't see anything in these details that would explain why the head of household (in the cases I've looked at, the husband) does not receive an e-mail sent to "All members." Despite having an e-mail address with the setting of "Ward visibility" or "Stake visibility," his name is listed among the "155 recipients [who] have opted out or do not have an email address in Ward Directory / MLS."

I think it may have to do with the "Stake visibility" setting. That is a restriction, so you would need to have a stake calling to send to someone with that setting. And that said, some have reported that the only emails that get through are the ones to members with "Ward visibility" settings.

lajackson wrote:I think it may have to do with the "Stake visibility" setting. That is a restriction, so you would need to have a stake calling to send to someone with that setting.

I know that when the sender is someone with a stake calling, only email addresses with "Stake" visibility receive the "Send a Message" email broadcasts. All email addresses with "Ward" or "Private - Leadership only" visibility do NOT receive the email broadcasts.

lajackson wrote:And that said, some have reported that the only emails that get through are the ones to members with "Ward visibility" settings.

I don't know if these rules are different when the sender has a ward calling, but at least this post seems to indicate that the rule that only people with "Stake" visibility receive these messages is universal. I personally have been unable to find a single forum post that would show that anyone with "Ward" visibility has ever received an email through "Send a Message", but if there is one it would be helpful to link to it so that we can better understand how this is working now.

I believe e-mail addresses with "Stake visibility" receive messages sent by stake leaders AND by ward leaders. (That's true for me, for instance, and I believe for others in my ward.) I would hope that those whose setting is "Ward visibility" would receive messages from ward leaders--isn't that the intent of the setting? If not, something needs to get fixed.

The problem I've run into is when spouses have different settings. Shouldn't the spouse with stake or ward visibility still get messages even if the other has the "Private" setting? But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Brwiyoung wrote:I believe e-mail addresses with "Stake visibility" receive messages sent by stake leaders AND by ward leaders. (That's true for me, for instance, and I believe for others in my ward.) I would hope that those whose setting is "Ward visibility" would receive messages from ward leaders--isn't that the intent of the setting?

No, that's not the intent of the setting. The privacy settings were created primarily to control who can see what on the Directory itself. And those settings accomplish that goal properly, as near as I can tell.

The "Send a Message" feature was added later, and it uses the privacy settings from the Directory to control who receives messages, but it's pretty much universally acknowledged that the way the messaging uses those privacy settings is flawed.

Hoping not to beat a dead horse . . . but it appears to me it would be good either to fix the flaws in how visibility settings affect messages or add an additional option allowing members to indicate whether they would like to receive messages. That might overcomplicate the directory a bit. But it would allow members to be invisible (for instance) in the online directory but still receive messages or, alternatively, be visible on the directory but not receive messages.

As a bishop, I should say that I would really like to be able to reach as many of my ward members by e-mail as possible--and I've found that the vast majority would like to receive messages. They almost never deliberately choose a visibility setting that prevents them from getting messages.

Brwiyoung wrote:(1) When the head of household is listed as "Stake visibility" but the spouse is listed as "Private," NEITHER receives an e-mail message with "Send a message."

I finally got around to testing this, and I cannot duplicate it. I sent a message with the following conditions:

• The husband's individual email address is valid and is set to "Stake" visibility. He is the head of household.
• The household email address is the same as the husband's, and is also set to "Stake" visbility.
• The wife's individual email address is valid, but is set to "Private - Leadership only"

On the Send a Message feature, I was allowed to include the husband's name in the bcc list with no problem. When I tried to include the wife in the bcc list, her name was moved up to the list titled "1 recipients have opted out or do not have an email address in Ward Directory / MLS". I then sent the message, and the husband DID RECEIVE THE MESSAGE.

I believe that I have duplicated the conditions that you specified, yet I got a different result than you reported -- the privacy setting of the spouse had nothing to do with whether the head of household receives such messages. That's exactly what I would expect. It's difficult to conceive of how the code that handles this would be written in a way that the spouse's privacy setting could possibly affect whether the head of household receives the message.

I'm glad to know the message went through to the spouse with "Stake visibility" setting when you tried it. And yes, it's hard to understand how the contrary result could happen. But it did happen in several specific cases when I sent a message to "All members."

I just tested messaging again, once again sending to "All members." Two of the couples have changed their setting since I first posted, so in those cases the names of both husband and wife are now listed under "Bcc." But there's one remaining couple where the husband's e-mail address is listed both for the household and himself individually (in both cases with "Ward visibility") and where his wife's different e-mail address is listed with the "Private" setting. BOTH their names are listed among those who have "opted out" or do not have an email address in Ward Directory / MLS. (Note: I didn't actually send a message, so I am noting only whether the names appear under "Bcc" or on the list of those not receiving a message.)

Brwiyoung wrote:I'm glad to know the message went through to the spouse with "Stake visibility" setting when you tried it. And yes, it's hard to understand how the contrary result could happen. But it did happen in several specific cases when I sent a message to "All members."

I just tested messaging again, once again sending to "All members." Two of the couples have changed their setting since I first posted, so in those cases the names of both husband and wife are now listed under "Bcc." But there's one remaining couple where the husband's e-mail address is listed both for the household and himself individually (in both cases with "Ward visibility") and where his wife's different e-mail address is listed with the "Private" setting. BOTH their names are listed among those who have "opted out" or do not have an email address in Ward Directory / MLS. (Note: I didn't actually send a message, so I am noting only whether the names appear under "Bcc" or on the list of those not receiving a message.)

Please note that there is a critical difference between the scenario you tested and the one I tested. You are testing a household where the husband has "Ward" visibility, and I was testing one where the husband has "Stake" visibility. As I and many others have confirmed repeatedly, the Send a Message feature only sends email to people with "Stake" visibility. So according to the way the "Send a Message" feature seems to have been designed, the household you are talking about has indeed "opted out" and should not receive the message. So it the feature is working as designed.

As I have also said multiple times, I think the design is awful -- there is no reason I can conceive of why a bishop should not be able to send a message to a member with "Ward" visibility. But now that you have clarified that the household in question has "Ward" visibility, I don't see any bug here at all -- it is just the long-standing odd design.

I was pretty sure this was happening also in cases where the head of household was listed with "Stake visibility." But since the couples for whom this was happening have now changed their settings, I can't be sure what the setting were previously.

In any case, thanks for checking this out. Knowing that "Ward visibility" apparently doesn't allow ward leaders to get messages through, I'll see if I can get the word to members so they'll know the consequences of the settings they choose.