Approved online tracking programs

I have wanted to use online web sites to help me keep track of church information such as DTG and Scout advancement information. The first time I tried one I was told by my Bishop that I should not be using websites to manage church member's information. At the time I was using YMYW.org It is an awesome website but I stopped using it because of my Bishop's council.

What is the policy from the church about using Non-church related sites to help manage information?

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I have wanted to use online web sites to help me keep track of church information such as DTG and Scout advancement information. The first time I tried one I was told by my Bishop that I should not be using websites to manage church member's information. At the time I was using YMYW.org It is an awesome website but I stopped using it because of my Bishop's council.

What is the policy from the church about using Non-church related sites to help manage information?

The Church does not encourage the use of non-Church operated sites for tracking membership data. The reasons are obvious, and that is because the Church can not ensure that the data is protected or that it follows local and national privacy laws. To my knowledge the Church has not forbidden these sites unless they allow for the uploading of membership data from MLS.

Tom

tomw wrote:To my knowledge the Church has not forbidden these sites unless they allow for the uploading of membership data from MLS.

Tom

I'm not sure I understand this last sentence. The Church has not forbidden these sites from being used if I enter the data myself? They do forbid you from uploading membership data from MLS?

I would like to use YMYW.org and the website ReturnAndReport.org. I am guessing that I will still need the approval from my Bishop to use these sites. Is there any "manual" that my Bishop can reference to council him on how to decide on using these Non-Church websites?

Disclaimer: These are my own personal thoughts I've gathered from the many discussions on this site about this topic. I am not an employee of the Church, nor do I represent them in any official way...

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I'm not sure I understand this last sentence. The Church has not forbidden these sites from being used if I enter the data myself? They do forbid you from uploading membership data from MLS?

I would like to use YMYW.org and the website ReturnAndReport.org. I am guessing that I will still need the approval from my Bishop to use these sites. Is there any "manual" that my Bishop can reference to council him on how to decide on using these Non-Church websites?

That's correct; the Church doesn't want anyone taking a mass export from MLS and shoving it on a third-party server. There are so many issues with that, taking information of other people outside of the realm that they have given permission for it to reside in (the Church's records and other systems). This concern is really over data that is private or sensitive, and not already "public domain"; it may be beneficial for you to find out exactly what this phrase means in your quest for an answer.

Now obviously you have the right to your own information and those that are your dependents. I wouldn't really say you have the right to enter other people's personal information, even if manually. But if a system is designed where each parent of the youth gave an approval or each parent entered their child's information individually into the system, then there is less concern I believe.

As far as an official policy from the Church, they are not ready to give a blanket statement encompassing all situations at this time. What they have done is let us, the Community, know what is not acceptable. Then they have asked us to use caution and discretion, and to be responsible with the data we have in front of us. It really is a decision for your Bishop to make as he gathers information and stays close to the Spirit.

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I have wanted to use online web sites to help me keep track of church information such as DTG and Scout advancement information. The first time I tried one I was told by my Bishop that I should not be using websites to manage church member's information. At the time I was using YMYW.org It is an awesome website but I stopped using it because of my Bishop's council.

What is the policy from the church about using Non-church related sites to help manage information?

Hi Clint,

If you're still looking for an application to handle DTG check out http://demo.youthmaster.org/

If privacy is a concern for you and your Bishop, you can use the system with a fairly limited set of user information. For example each user profile could be as limited as:

First Name: Mark
Last Name: J
DOB: March 1995

That's all you'd need to enter for "Mark" to be in the system and tracking his DTG, Scouting, etc.

Regards,
Matt

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I'm not sure I understand this last sentence. The Church has not forbidden these sites from being used if I enter the data myself? They do forbid you from uploading membership data from MLS?

I would like to use YMYW.org and the website ReturnAndReport.org. I am guessing that I will still need the approval from my Bishop to use these sites. Is there any "manual" that my Bishop can reference to council him on how to decide on using these Non-Church websites?

Clint, check out this thread for more thoughts on subject.

Here's my two cents.....
ymyw.org is tool to manage information about minors. This is a pandora's box beyond just Church guidelines. So stay away from it as minors rights are different than adults.

As for your concerns about returnandreport.org it is safe. This site is limited to names of heads of households which is public record information. See the about us link on the site for additional info.

Extracting MLS data via the Export function, which requires administrator level access, and taking it anywhere outside the meetinghouse is not currently allowed. This is discussed in this thread.

daddy-o wrote:Extracting MLS data via the Export function, which requires administrator level access, and taking it anywhere outside the meetinghouse is not currently allowed. This is discussed in this thread.

Just for the record, that severe interpretation of policy is your own opinion, not policy -- and is not the consensus of commenters on that thread or in this forum. It certainly is not the interpretation of my Bishop or of many other priesthood leaders..

With the Bishop's approval, I routinely extract the export files and load them on my password-protected laptop for various purposes. Just yesterday, for example, I did some custom queries from that data in my home and emailed the resulting output to an EQ counselor, who will be working on it at his home. Not all the work of the Church occurs within the four walls of the clerk's office.

boomerbubba wrote:Just for the record, that severe interpretation of policy is your own opinion, not policy -- and is not the consensus of commenters on that thread or in this forum. It certainly is not the interpretation of my Bishop or of many other priesthood leaders..

With the Bishop's approval, I routinely extract the export files and load them on my password-protected laptop for various purposes. Just yesterday, for example, I did some custom queries from that data in my home and emailed the resulting output to an EQ counselor, who will be working on it at his home. Not all the work of the Church occurs within the four walls of the clerk's office.

In addition to that, I have seen more than one employee of the Church confirm that some of the MLS export files are designed to be used on personal handheld devices that are secured by password entry.

daddy-o wrote:As for your concerns about ... it is safe. This site is limited to names of heads of households which is public record information.

It is? Since when?

I have not given the Church permission to make my name, either first or last, public record information.

lajackson wrote:It is? Since when?

I have not given the Church permission to make my name, either first or last, public record information.

ReturnAndReport.org is not a Church site. In fact, it specifically indicates that it is not. Neither is ymyw.org.

TechnoBabel wrote:ReturnAndReport.org is not a Church site. In fact, it specifically indicates that it is not. Neither is ymyw.org.

My point exactly, which is why I am concerned about the comment that my Head of Household information (or any information from the Church) is considered by someone to be public record information. It is not.

lajackson wrote:My point exactly, which is why I am concerned about the comment that my Head of Household information (or any information from the Church) is considered by someone to be public record information. It is not.

He's referring to the fact that there are countless websites out there where you can pay $9.95 to search and retrieve YOUR public information which consists of your name, phone number, and much more.

This only becomes an issue when your information is not removed when you ask to have it removed.

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I'm not sure I understand this last sentence. The Church has not forbidden these sites from being used if I enter the data myself? They do forbid you from uploading membership data from MLS?

That is the way I read that guidance. The distinction does not make intuitive sense to everyone, but this is guidance that we have read here before.

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I would like to use YMYW.org and the website ReturnAndReport.org. I am guessing that I will still need the approval from my Bishop to use these sites. Is there any "manual" that my Bishop can reference to council him on how to decide on using these Non-Church websites?

Yes, it is your priesthood leaders' call. There is no such definitive policy "manual," but you can point to the guidance above for the Bishop's consideration.

FWIW as far as Return and Report is concerned, you might mention that the Church IT department, which sponsors this forum, recently honored Brad O., the developer of that site, as the recipient of the 2008 LDS Tech Awardfor his efforts. At the same time, the Church announced a new collaborative development project that might eventually meet the same need. Meanwhile, I believe that Brad continues to support his site privately, and it does not involve uploading from MLS.

I think the discussion over "public record" above is not relevant to your issue, and is really a distraction. That is not a distinction I have seen made by Church authorities in this regard. My understanding is that even name-and-address membership data should not be uploaded from MLS or LUWS to third-party servers.

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I'm not sure I understand this last sentence. The Church has not forbidden these sites from being used if I enter the data myself? They do forbid you from uploading membership data from MLS?

Like others have said, that is correct. I guess it might protect the church from a legal perspective and if you enter it yourself then "it's on you" but crucially its entry of data on a third-party server where you have no personal control of the security.

I too have some ideas about creating some applications for members. The best would be to create them as web application but the more I have read this forum and think about it I will probably end up creating them as .NET desktop applications as it would then avoid the third-party storage issue.

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:I would like to use YMYW.org and the website ReturnAndReport.org. I am guessing that I will still need the approval from my Bishop to use these sites. Is there any "manual" that my Bishop can reference to council him on how to decide on using these Non-Church websites?

The worry for the bishop here would be how much of the members information is submitted. I like the suggestion given here about only putting in the first names and first letter of the surname as well as birth date rather than full names and addresses and that might just make your Bishop feel much more comfortable about the cautious steps you have taken. Getting the parents to opt-in as well is also a good idea as I assume the system will require you to specify their email addresses.

lajackson wrote:It is? Since when?

I have not given the Church permission to make my name, either first or last, public record information.

In the thread I referenced I mentioned Public Records law. If you are not familiar with Public Record law it means that incorporating the names of adults, which is public record, is similar to fair use. It is important to remember that this only pertains to adults. Minors have additional protections at Federal level. Some States augment this further.

As for the Church, as a member they have the implied permission to have your information on the Stake and Ward Websites. As for non-church owned sites this determination falls to the leaders which is why I brought up the Public Record distinction.

I hope this helps connect the dots...

boomerbubba wrote:Just for the record, that severe interpretation of policy is your own opinion, not policy -- and is not the consensus of commenters on that thread or in this forum. It certainly is not the interpretation of my Bishop or of many other priesthood leaders..

With the Bishop's approval, I routinely extract the export files and load them on my password-protected laptop for various purposes. Just yesterday, for example, I did some custom queries from that data in my home and emailed the resulting output to an EQ counselor, who will be working on it at his home. Not all the work of the Church occurs within the four walls of the clerk's office.

Boomerbubba, I know all too well not all the work can be done in the clerks office.

I think we are suffering from different levels of familiarity with the subject matter. I have had direct conversations with CHQ Bishop and Clerk support on this. I even referenced the person I spoke with in the post.

I get that techie's don't like barriers to technology. This is evidenced by the consensus you mention. However, we cannot take our eyes off the ball. We have to follow the guidelines and rules the Church gives us AND the laws. We don't want to be over zealous and create a liability for the Church.

Unfortunately, just because technology allows us to do something doesn't always mean we should

mkmurray wrote:In addition to that, I have seen more than one employee of the Church confirm that some of the MLS export files are designed to be used on personal handheld devices that are secured by password entry.

Correct. That is what was outlined to my Ward by CHQ in the second thread I referenced here.

TechnoBabel wrote:He's referring to the fact that there are countless websites out there where you can pay $9.95 to search and retrieve YOUR public information which consists of your name, phone number, and much more.

This only becomes an issue when your information is not removed when you ask to have it removed.

We're definitely getting warmer here. Public Record law will always have Adult names. The data sites and merchants are required to furnish that for free. The fees come into play when people want more info.

In reading how this has evolved it seems that many are not as familiar with the laws relating to data.:rolleyes:

dkjorgi wrote:Like others have said, that is correct. I guess it might protect the church from a legal perspective and if you enter it yourself then "it's on you" but crucially its entry of data on a third-party server where you have no personal control of the security.

I too have some ideas about creating some applications for members. The best would be to create them as web application but the more I have read this forum and think about it I will probably end up creating them as .NET desktop applications as it would then avoid the third-party storage issue.



The worry for the bishop here would be how much of the members information is submitted. I like the suggestion given here about only putting in the first names and first letter of the surname as well as birth date rather than full names and addresses and that might just make your Bishop feel much more comfortable about the cautious steps you have taken. Getting the parents to opt-in as well is also a good idea as I assume the system will require you to specify their email addresses.

clintcarter@gmail.com, the simplest way to avoid legal exposure is for your Bishop to obtain parental consent to use ymyw.org. The link included below talks about recommendations for website operators. This info in the link might help your Bishop make a more informed decision. Rules for website operators

boomerbubba wrote:That is the way I read that guidance. The distinction does not make intuitive sense to everyone, but this is guidance that we have read here before.



Yes, it is your priesthood leaders' call. There is no such definitive policy "manual," but you can point to the guidance above for the Bishop's consideration.

FWIW as far as Return and Report is concerned, you might mention that the Church IT department, which sponsors this forum, recently honored Brad O., the developer of that site, as the recipient of the 2008 LDS Tech Awardfor his efforts. At the same time, the Church announced a new collaborative development project that might eventually meet the same need. Meanwhile, I believe that Brad continues to support his site privately, and it does not involve uploading from MLS.

I think the discussion over "public record" above is not relevant to your issue, and is really a distraction. That is not a distinction I have seen made by Church authorities in this regard. My understanding is that even name-and-address membership data should not be uploaded from MLS or LUWS to third-party servers.

Carl, Boomerbubba is right about our efforts with returnandreport.org.

The relevance of public record data will be important if questions are raised about privacy. We have dealt with this issue quite a bit in getting returnandreport.org to where it is today. Be sure to point out that returnandreport.org only uses adult names which are public record. This will help people less familiar with the internet understand that names of heads of households are already out there on the web.

Ymyw.org involves minors, which is not public record, the only way for your Ward to use that site and avoid legal exposure for the Church is to obtain parental consent to use it before hand.

I have first hand experience resarching and using these tools. Feel free to contact me if you need help addressing concerns from your ward leaders.

daddy-o wrote:In the thread I referenced I mentioned Public Records law. If you are not familiar with Public Record law it means that incorporating the names of adults, which is public record, is similar to fair use.

Just a couple of points:

While the information of the head of household may be public information, the association with the church may not. So for the church to publish it, it could be a privacy violation because it would be publishing the fact that this person is a member. It should be noted with LUWS, you can not see the list of households unless you login to your ward. And that option is only extended to members of that area.

Secondly is the sticky distinction between "public" and "published". For many years some information has been public in the sense that anyone can go down to the local courthouse or city hall and ask for it. It's always been there, but few bother to go and do it. But when you place that same information on a website, it's potentially available for anyone, anywhere, anytime to come look and gawk at it or mine it for details. Things like divorce filings, bankruptcies, most anything going to court. At this point I it may not be a legal problem, but it is causing a great deal of concern and discussion and so the laws are changing and becoming more restrictive.

Standard disclaimers apply: IANAL

daddy-o wrote: I think we are suffering from different levels of familiarity with the subject matter. I have had direct conversations with CHQ Bishop and Clerk support on this. I even referenced the person I spoke with in the post.

With respect, daddy-o, you might note that not only Ibut some others commentingon that other thread do not think your paraphrased report of a conversation you had with a staffer in Clerk Support settles this as binding policy for the whole Church.

I will continue to follow my own common-sense interpretation based in large part on guidance from respected administrators or moderators on this forum-- and more important, that of my Bishop -- that these export files are there for us to use responsibly in our callings, of course under password protection. And my Bishop, like many others, will probably continue to use these export files to populate third-party helper applications such as Ward Tools and MLS Companion, or their own spreadsheets, or homegrown applications. In fact, I took my routine data dump this afternoon and plan to use it at home this week on two projects for our leadership.

Ok, with all of the issues about entering data online. Are there any "offline" programs that I could download to my computer and use?

I am guessing that if I had a stand alone program to enter data and track advancement in DTG and Scouting, I would not have so many issues with private and public data.

Does anyone know of a program I can install locally that will do the same thing as the websites are offering?

clintcarter@gmail.com wrote:Ok, with all of the issues about entering data online. Are there any "offline" programs that I could download to my computer and use?

I am guessing that if I had a stand alone program to enter data and track advancement in DTG and Scouting, I would not have so many issues with private and public data.

Does anyone know of a program I can install locally that will do the same thing as the websites are offering?

I like your cautious take on this by exploring to tread on safer ground. There can easily be too many different opinions and uncertain issues associated with the other ways.

As for offline applications etc I too would also welcome the all-singing all-dancing version and its very possible I might try this myself if there is nothing else out there.

There seems to be plenty stuff people have done if you look at places like http://www.dutytogod.com and http://dtgtracker.com but much of it I personally think does the same job as the church's own tracking sheet (http://www.lds.org/pa/images/ym/trackingsheet.pdf).

What I personally missed in all these is the ability to know if and how much a Young Man is behind with his Duty To God progress and how often he would have to complete a goal in order to still achieve them all by the time he will advance to the next office. That is the reason why we created our own spreadsheet and used that in connection with the church's own tracking sheet.

You are welcome to have a copy of that spreadsheet if you want or if you find a better spreadsheet on the above sites then maybe you can alter them to include the missing checks. Btw, our sheet is DTG only, just havent had time yet to include Scouts and YW and Primary's Faith in God yet.

dkjorgi wrote:There seems to be plenty stuff people have done if you look at places like http://www.dutytogod.com and http://dtgtracker.com but much of it I personally think does the same job as the church's own tracking sheet (http://www.lds.org/pa/images/ym/trackingsheet.pdf).

I am currently using an Excel spreadsheet to track all of the DTG requirements for our Young Men in our ward. I haven't seen DTGtracker yet so I'll download it and see what it will do for me.

thanks

Just glanced over this thread and the various responses. Didn't look like anyone mentioned the fact that just about anyone can login to their own ward website and download Membership and Calendar information on their own. Yes, I know it's not the same amount of detail as MLS, but. . .

Once downloaded by anyone, it's potentially at risk!! Especially if their computer is not as hacker-safe in a 24/7 world we live.

Now on the otherhand as I've served in various callings, I've used the MLS PDA-intended exports for my own organizations use and the use of the entire ward under the direction of Bishop etc. It had benefitted me and other leaders quite well, as MLS is lacking in a lot of ways of useful information.

Yes, I do use password security on my iPhone/PDA, computers, USB thumb drives etc. But if the government, UofU medical, and many other responsible organizations can be hacked--why would CHQ or any of the rest of individuals be safe?? Including wards/stake now being given permission to have broadband access to the buildings. Hmmmmmm

Once again instead of forbidding it or leaving it to the local leaders, why not embrace it and build the features needed or separate apps from CHQ. Opensource the development and create mechanisms that allow for feedback and features to be added etc.

There are too many disconnects between Scouting requirements and Duty to God.

It takes about a couple years for a leader to understand how the two program requirements blend together and to be effective in helping the kids pass off requirements.

By time you figure out the program, it's time to turn the calling over to someone new.

I would like to see the church carefully anaylize the Scout and D2G programs so that they can live happily together. Scout leaders should not feel pressured into buying extra software or into using software that can be difficult to use.

The success of the D2G and Scouting programs should not be limited to the experienced or tech-savvy leaders.

riverton wrote:There are too many disconnects between Scouting requirements and Duty to God.

It takes about a couple years for a leader to understand how the two program requirements blend together and to be effective in helping the kids pass off requirements.

By time you figure out the program, it's time to turn the calling over to someone new.

I would like to see the church carefully anaylize the Scout and D2G programs so that they can live happily together. Scout leaders should not feel pressured into buying extra software or into using software that can be difficult to use.

The success of the D2G and Scouting programs should not be limited to the experienced or tech-savvy leaders.

You'd be surprised at how many parents have already done this work on their own to track their own children's progress (D2G and Eagle for boys, YWPP for girls). Ask around in your ward and see who has done it and isn't admitting it publicly. There are a *lot* of parents who aren't waiting for the Scout, YW, or YM leaders to track the progress.

As far as the original concerns about tracking my children on an online site, I'll agreement with the sentiment that a leader had better get my approval first (even though she's already got email and web domains and an online presence, I want to be able to know who in the ward is storing her information).

You are correct. I've seen a zillion different tracking methods around the internet.

For myself, I created an Excel versoin using formulas to automatically populate appropriate fields -- and use my iTouch to quickly view the progress of our scouts/deacons.

However, none of the tracking systems is adequately meeting the needs - -that's why someone is always trying to re-invent tracking methods. Our Stake experimented with ScoutSoft (not intuitive or user friendly). I know another stake in Utah county is experimenting with another program.

It doesn't have to be this tough. Duty to God and Scout requirements should more closely mirror each other.

Ask and you shall receive -- quickly.

Today's conference announcement about the new Duty to God program removes my Scout vs D2G tracking concerns.

The LDS website states:

"The new program does notoverlap or compete with Scouting."

riverton wrote:Ask and you shall receive -- quickly.

Today's conference announcement about the new Duty to God program removes my Scout vs D2G tracking concerns.

The LDS website states:

"The new program does notoverlap or compete with Scouting."

Nice!

Yes I agree. Like you I have also created my own Excel Spreadsheet and the part I like best is where I calculate how often a goal has to be completed in order to do them all on time. I know some goals require more effort than others but it gives a great measurement of where any Young Man stand with his progress.

geek wrote:You'd be surprised at how many parents have already done this work on their own to track their own children's progress (D2G and Eagle for boys, YWPP for girls). Ask around in your ward and see who has done it and isn't admitting it publicly. There are a *lot* of parents who aren't waiting for the Scout, YW, or YM leaders to track the progress.

As far as the original concerns about tracking my children on an online site, I'll agreement with the sentiment that a leader had better get my approval first (even though she's already got email and web domains and an online presence, I want to be able to know who in the ward is storing her information).

The new Personal Progress website will include tracking capability. Presumably they will do the same on the new Duty to God website.

oregonmatt wrote: Presumably they will do the same on the new Duty to God website.

It's not just "presumably"; the Questions and Answers page says:

The following resources will be available at DutytoGod.lds.org:

• An online version of the Duty to God book. In selected languages, this will be an interactive version where young men can record what they are learning, make their plans, see examples, and share their experiences.

Alan_Brown wrote:It's not just "presumably";

Gah. I read that on Sunday and promptly committed it to my Randomly Accessible Memory.

It's interesting to note that "share their experiences" is called out as a function of the website. It would appear that a function of social networking will be in play to allow youth to connect. Should be exciting!

Can anyone recommend a good online tool for recording scout advancements? Our ward has been using TroopMaster but we want to move to an online tool where parents and all leaders can access the necessary information. Additionally, not too many of our members have Windows computers anymore and would prefer a non-proprietary tool. Thank you.

I don't think there is yet a good on-line tracking service for both parents and leaders. Even those oriented towards leaders only have their cons and pros (mostly cons). Our stake tried ScoutSoft, but is was very difficult for non-nerds to figure out. I know another stake that loves to use etrailtoeagle -- the site advertises thousands of registered troops.

I would like to investigate the use of SharePoint (SP 2010 is now available). This allows simple custom lists and views to be created to track progress. Permissions can be varied for leaders and parents (example: let leaders see everything and parents see thier own scout's stuff). However, this is Windows-based only. Still, I think this would be an easy setup -- so I will make this a goal of mine for 2011.

As far as a simple on-line system that is intended for both parents and leaders, I haven't seen one yet that worked smoothly. Our ward is using an ipod application called Troop Badges. I try to organize the info in Excel, filter the information, and then email the leaders with a simple email that shows exactly where everyone is and what is needed.

Each ward should have a good advancement coordinator that can track progress and email to the YM leaders and scoutmaster in a friendly format. Scoutmasters shouldn't have to worry about tracking everything -- they should be able to submit cards to the advancement coordinator, and the coordinator can organize the info nicely for the Scoutmaster and parents.

ksroberts wrote:I would like to investigate the use of SharePoint (SP 2010 is now available).

You might want to check the licensing costs. IIRC, versions that are public-facing get rather expensive.

RussellHltn wrote:You might want to check the licensing costs. IIRC, versions that are public-facing get rather expensive.

I realize I can't afford expensive licensing or software costs. However, I've been experimenting a bit with Network Solutions, which offers SP 2003 online for about $10/month. I'm accustomed to managing SharePoint within a business network environment, so trying this from home is a different ball game, since permissions are done differently and it's not as robust.

Anyhow, just another idea to explore.

ksroberts wrote:SP 2003

2003? That's kinda old. 2 versions back. And support expires in 3 years.

mprusse wrote:Can anyone recommend a good online tool for recording scout advancements? Our ward has been using TroopMaster but we want to move to an online tool where parents and all leaders can access the necessary information. Additionally, not too many of our members have Windows computers anymore and would prefer a non-proprietary tool. Thank you.

My troop uses TroopMasterWeb. All of the leaders are able to access the database from their home computers and updates are made to the main database. Plus, the database is backed up by TroopMaster. We've been very happy with it.

EDIT: I apologize, we actually use Troopmaster.NET. So our database is actually kept on the TroopMaster servers and we can access it as needed from any computer that has Troopmaster installed.

RussellHltn wrote:2003? That's kinda old. 2 versions back. And support expires in 3 years.

mistyped: I meant SP 2007.

ksroberts wrote:mistyped: I meant SP 2007.

OK, that's just one version back. (In understand 2010 is a lot better, but no idea what the hosting cost would be. I assume that includes licensing? If not, that could be a deal killer.)