Tech Forum Archive

Missing ordinance info

28 postsstarted by luvmy8dz-p40 10,208 viewsoriginal topic

luvmy8dz-p40
New Member
#1
We have many members--easily 85%--whose records show dates for such things as Baptism, Confirmation, and Priesthood ordinations but lack the names of the persons who performed these ordinances. I have begun the BIG project of contacting Ward members to get this info and many of them are telling me that it was at one time on their records. Did this info get lost in a software update or something like that? Is there any way to get it back besides contacting each member and hoping they either have a good memory or access to their certificates? Along the same lines, if they were baptized/confirmed by a missionary and only know him as "Elder So-and-so" is there any way to get that Elder's first name and birthdate?
mkmurray
Senior Member
#2
luvmy8dz wrote:We have many members--easily 85%--whose records show dates for such things as Baptism, Confirmation, and Priesthood ordinations but lack the names of the persons who performed these ordinances. I have begun the BIG project of contacting Ward members to get this info and many of them are telling me that it was at one time on their records. Did this info get lost in a software update or something like that? Is there any way to get it back besides contacting each member and hoping they either have a good memory or access to their certificates? Along the same lines, if they were baptized/confirmed by a missionary and only know him as "Elder So-and-so" is there any way to get that Elder's first name and birthdate?
As far as the missing ordination stuff, we have that in our ward too (probably same percentage). I don't know how true this is, but someone told me they heard about a database mishap at Church Headquarters a few years ago. I'm not sure if that's the real explanation, but I'm positive you are not the only unit (they are most likely many).
lajackson
Community Moderators
#3
luvmy8dz wrote:We have many members--easily 85%--whose records show dates for such things as Baptism, Confirmation, and Priesthood ordinations but lack the names of the persons who performed these ordinances.
I do not recall that the names of those performing baptisms and confirmations were kept after the certificates were printed.

Priesthood ordinations, on the other hand, are different. There was a time in the early 90s when a decision was made to no longer record the name of the person performing the ordination. Some years later, it was realized that there would be no way to obtain a priesthood line of authority if the names were not known.

Since that time, there has been a concerted effort to try and figure out who ordained who. That effort is still ongoing. This is one of the rare instances where CHQ was happy that clerks kept the yellow copies of ordination certificates and forms.
opee
Member
#4
The names of the person who baptized and confirmed a member will stay with the record until they move their records from the ward, because it is kept locally and not at church HQ. When the record moves, the data in the baptism and confirmation officiator is not carried. The priesthood line of authority does go with the record when the record is moved.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#5
Yes, as a old-time clerk back in the pre-computer days (well, before there was computers in the ward anyway) the paper records DID have the name of the person who did the ordnance work. Even the names of the proxy for temple work was recorded.

However, somewhere along the line, in a careful analysis of the church processes, it was decided that that information was not essential. So it was discarded. Some of you may remember that day, because it was the same time the mag card readers where removed from the temple. The purpose of the mag cards was to automate the recording of the name of the proxy. Since that data was no longer captured, the equipment was removed.

Then some years later, someone realized that we really do need to keep that information for Priesthood ordinations. Line of authority and things like that. So we had to round up our paper records and fill in the blanks.

But luvmy8dz, I really wouldn't worry about it. Except for the priesthood, the information isn't kept in the master computer in SLC. So don't bother.
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mkmurray
Senior Member
#6
Another thing I'm noticing is that not only do some people have no name listed by priesthood ordinations, but in some cases, there is a name but no membership record number either.

When we have tithing settlement this year, I will be trying to approach as many people as possible to get this information filled in. Hopefully if every unit around the Church attempts to do this yearly, we can get almost all of that information back on the records.
opee
Member
#7
About a year ago, a letter from the Membership Department (as mentioned previously in this thread) asked clerks to send in MP paperwork from the 1990s so that they could update the MP records that were not recorded during that time.

As a newly called clerk, I searched our Stake Offices and found about 100 ordination records from the requested time period that were never discarded.

I feel pretty certain that most of our clerk filing cabinets throughout the Church have similar old records of MP ordination names that could be sent to HQ to help fill in these blanks.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#8
mkmurray wrote:Another thing I'm noticing is that not only do some people have no name listed by priesthood ordinations, but in some cases, there is a name but no membership record number either.
I'll add to my previous statement that I think they're only interested in the MP ordinations - and even then, maybe only the last one.
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mkmurray
Senior Member
#9
RussellHltn wrote:I'll add to my previous statement that I think they're only interested in the MP ordinations - and even then, maybe only the last one.
For line of authority, isn't the conferral of the MP the only thing that matters? So why keep ordinations to certain offices, and then especially only keeping the last one?
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#10
mkmurray wrote:For line of authority, isn't the conferral of the MP the only thing that matters? So why keep ordinations to certain offices, and then especially only keeping the last one?
I'm trying to remember. I know this was hashed out on the clerks list some years back. I think the conferring of later keys supersedes the prior one. For example, if you're a High Priest, then does it really matter how you were ordained an Elder?

One the other side, I think it creates some issues as to any ordinations that were made while still an Elder.

Maybe Allan or Larry remembers the details.
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mkmurray
Senior Member
#11
RussellHltn wrote:I'm trying to remember. I know this was hashed out on the clerks list some years back. I think the conferring of later keys supersedes the prior one. For example, if you're a High Priest, then does it really matter how you were ordained an Elder?
I can understand that; it makes sense.

But I'm trying to clear up terminology here, citing the difference between an ordination to a certain office in the priesthood and the actual conferral of the priesthood itself. I'm trying to remember the Member Record printouts and the screens in MLS, and I don't remember the conferral being recorded anywhere. The conferral is your actual line of authority, correct?
aebrown
Community Administrator
#12
mkmurray wrote:For line of authority, isn't the conferral of the MP the only thing that matters? So why keep ordinations to certain offices, and then especially only keeping the last one?
No, it is not the conferral of MP, but rather the current office that matters.

An old, but still accurate link says:
If a priesthood bearer desires to trace his own line of authority, he should pursue his current office in the priesthood—not former offices. Bishops and patriarchs should trace their line of authority as high priests. In completing an authority line, each step should go back through the office held by the person at the time he performed the ordination.
It is not appropriate to trace the line of authority in cases of setting apart or for other ordinances.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
mkmurray
Senior Member
#13
Alan_Brown wrote:No, it is not the conferral of MP, but rather the current office that matters.

An old, but still accurate link says:
If a priesthood bearer desires to trace his own line of authority, he should pursue his current office in the priesthood—not former offices. Bishops and patriarchs should trace their line of authority as high priests. In completing an authority line, each step should go back through the office held by the person at the time he performed the ordination.
It is not appropriate to trace the line of authority in cases of setting apart or for other ordinances.
Excellent! Thank you very much.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#14
mkmurray wrote:But I'm trying to clear up terminology here, citing the difference between an ordination to a certain office in the priesthood and the actual conferral of the priesthood itself. I'm trying to remember the Member Record printouts and the screens in MLS, and I don't remember the conferral being recorded anywhere.
There is nothing on the Membership Record that is labeled anything like "Conferral" but the Elder ordination is always part of the record, even if the brother has been subsequently ordained to a higher office.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
mkmurray
Senior Member
#15
Alan_Brown wrote:There is nothing on the Membership Record that is labeled anything like "Conferral" but the Elder ordination is always part of the record, even if the brother has been subsequently ordained to a higher office.
Why would they not show the HP ordination instead? If that dictates your line of authority?

Think about it...if my Dad ordained me to Elder, and then he is ordained to a HP by someone other than the one that ordained him to Elder, then my line of authority has just changed too!
aebrown
Community Administrator
#16
mkmurray wrote:Why would they not show the HP ordination instead? If that dictates your line of authority?

Think about it...if my Dad ordained me to Elder, and then he is ordained to a HP by someone other than the one that ordained him to Elder, then my line of authority has just changed too!
I guess I wasn't clear. I was only talking about the membership record, not the line of authority. My membership record shows all of my ordinations, including the date and who performed the ordinance. So all I was trying to say was that although I am a High Priest, my Elder ordination still appears on my membership record, and thus it is clear when the MP was conferred on me, even though there is nothing labeled "conferral".

By no means was I trying to say what you said in your last sentence -- that clearly makes no sense at all. Your line of authority is set when you are ordained to your current office. Nothing will change it unless you are ordained to a higher office, in which case your new line of authority is entirely dependent on the line of authority of the new ordainer, and no longer has anything to do with the previous ordainer.

The line of authority is not noted on the membership record, but if all records noted for all ordinations the date and who performed the ordinance, it would be possible to reconstruct all lines of authority. That is what the Church is trying to do, but there are lots of missing pieces of information still.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
mkmurray
Senior Member
#17
Alan_Brown wrote:By no means was I trying to say what you said in your last sentence -- that clearly makes no sense at all. Your line of authority is set when you are ordained to your current office. Nothing will change it unless you are ordained to a higher office, in which case your new line of authority is entirely dependent on the line of authority of the new ordainer, and no longer has anything to do with the previous ordainer.
I guess I got myself confused. I was thinking that if the person that ordained you to your current office was then ordained to a new office, then that would change your line of authority as well as theirs. I see the error in my line of thinking now.

I don't think it's outlandishly crazy thinking, but it is certainly misguided. :rolleyes:
lajackson
Community Moderators
#18
RussellHltn wrote:Maybe Allan or Larry remembers the details.
I miss the days when I could access lists and things from work. It used to save so much time. [grin]

Priesthood line of authority is traced through the priesthood office held at the time of the ordination. You will see this on your own line of authority.

You probably were ordained an elder by an elder or high priest. But, as you trace your line back you will usually find that a high priest ordination is involved, and then an apostle who ordained a high priest, and an apostle who was ordained by an apostle, and on back.

For example, I was ordained an elder by my father. As an elder, I ordained other elders. Their lines of authority goes through my elder ordination and my father's line of authority.

Later, I was ordained a high priest by my stake president. Since then, I have ordained elders and high priests. Their lines of authority go through my high priest ordination and my stake president's line of authority.

__

The membership record of a high priest continues to show his elder ordination because that is (normally) when he received the Melchizedek Priesthood, which also qualified him to receive temple ordinances. If only the high priest ordination was shown, it would appear that he received his endowment before he received the proper priesthood, and a ratification would then be needed.
jbh001
Senior Member
#19
luvmy8dz wrote:We have many members--easily 85%--whose records show dates for such things as Baptism, Confirmation, and Priesthood ordinations but lack the names of the persons who performed these ordinances. I have begun the BIG project of contacting Ward members to get this info and many of them are telling me that it was at one time on their records.
Something you should know.

Baby blessing dates and the names of those performing that ordinance are NOT transmitted to CHQ.

Only the ordinance dates for baptism and confirmation are transmitted to CHQ. The names of the persons performing those ordinances are NOT.

The date and name of persons performing Melchizedek Priesthood ordinations are transmitted to CHQ by MLS. (I can't see why the Church would want to track Aaronic Priesthood line of authority for anyone.)

Everything that is NOT transmitted to CHQ is only stored locally until the record is moved to a new unit. The information that is only stored locally is stored only for the purpose of making it easier to print or reprint certificates.
clerker-p40
New Member
#20
RussellHltn wrote:I'm trying to remember. I know this was hashed out on the clerks list some years back. I think the conferring of later keys supersedes the prior one. For example, if you're a High Priest, then does it really matter how you were ordained an Elder?

One the other side, I think it creates some issues as to any ordinations that were made while still an Elder.

Maybe Allan or Larry remembers the details.

There are 4 administrative offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. These offices are Elder, Seventy, High Priest and Apostle. The line of authority goes through the current office that the person holds at the time they do the ordination. For instance, if a father ordained his son to be an elder and he was an elder, he would give the son his elder line. If he was a HP when he ordained his next son to be an elder, then he would give his HP line.

Please note that you do not trace a line through the calling of bishop or patriarch. There are no quorums of bishops or patriarchs. Those bretheren would give their HP line.
jbh001
Senior Member
#21

Priesthood Line of Authority

mkmurray wrote:Think about it...if my Dad ordained me to Elder, and then he is ordained to a HP by someone other than the one that ordained him to Elder, then my line of authority has just changed too!
I recently (November 2007) requested my line of authority from CHQ. When it arrived, the last page included this helpful information.
Information Concerning Priesthood Line of Authority

The First Presidency recently authorized gathering information for priesthood lines of authority for the following:
  • Melchizedek Priesthood Conferral (usually ordination to the office of elder.)
  • Ordination to the office of High Priest.

Tracing Priesthood Line of Authority
When you ordain others to offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood, their priesthood line of authority will be determined by the priesthood office you hold at the time you perform the ordination. For example, if you are an elder when you ordain your son an elder, he would trace his line of authority through your elder ordination line of authority. However, if you are a high priest when you ordain your son and elder, he would trace his line of authority through your high priest ordination line of authority.

Note: Though a priesthood holder with the office of seventy may be included in a member's personal line of authority, no separate line of authority is maintained for the office of seventy. Ordained bishops and patriarchs trace their priesthood line of authority through their high priest ordination. Priesthood line of authority is not recorded for Aaronic Priesthood offices.

Requesting Your Priesthood Line of Authority
If you wish to request your priesthood line of authority, include you full legal name, birth date, membership record number (if known), the name of the individual who ordained you to the office of elder or high priest (if known), and your return address and telephone number or e-mail address. Send your request to:[INDENT]Priesthood Line of Authority
Member and Statistical Records
50 East North Temple, Room 1320
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150-5300

Telephone: 1-800-453-3860, extension 2-3500
E-mail: [omitted to reduce spam]
[/INDENT]
Correcting Your Priesthood Line of Authority
Upon receipt, review your Priesthood Line of Authority document for accuracy. If any information is incomplete or inaccurate, send corrections to the street ot e-mail address shown above. Corrections or additions should include information on: officiator names, birth dates, or approximate ages; locations where ordinations occurred; and your relationship to officiators, if any (such as father, father-in-law, bishop, and so on). An updated Priesthood Line of Authority document will be sent to you that will include any corrections.

Validity of Your Priesthood Ordination
Because of missing information a priesthood line of authority may be incomplete. In such a case, your individual priesthood is nevertheless valid because:
  • Your stake president, through the priesthood keys he held at the time, authorized your ordination.
  • Your ordination was recorded in the official records of the Church.
mkmurray
Senior Member
#22
jbh001 wrote:I recently (November 2007) requested my line of authority from CHQ. When it arrived, the last page included this helpful information.
That's terrific; thank you for posting this.
dubhdara-p40
New Member
#23

Aaronic Priesthood line of authority

Sorry for the thread necromancy :D

When the Church says that "Priesthood line of authority is not recorded for Aaronic Priesthood offices" what does that mean?

Does it mean that it is not recorded if the one performing the ordinance is not a Melchizedek Priesthood holder?

Does "not recorded" mean that the Church does not record it formally but that it is still OK to give it to someone who requests it?

Recently I ordained a young man to the Aaronic Priesthood (Deacon) and have been asked for a line of authority (I am a High Priest). What should I do? The ordinance was performed by the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood due to a Priest being present in the circle (I don't think that makes any difference though).

Thanks! :)
aebrown
Community Administrator
#24
dubhdara wrote:When the Church says that "Priesthood line of authority is not recorded for Aaronic Priesthood offices" what does that mean?
It means that the Church does not keep records of the line of authority for AP offices. For MP offices, you can request a copy of your line of authority, and the Church will give it to you; if you make the same request for an AP office, they will not be able to help you.
dubhdara wrote:Does it mean that it is not recorded if the one performing the ordinance is not a Melchizedek Priesthood holder?
It has nothing to do with who performs the ordinance; it is referring to the office to which a person is being ordained.
dubhdara wrote:Does "not recorded" mean that the Church does not record it formally but that it is still OK to give it to someone who requests it?

Recently I ordained a young man to the Aaronic Priesthood (Deacon) and have been asked for a line of authority (I am a High Priest). What should I do? The ordinance was performed by the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood due to a Priest being present in the circle (I don't think that makes any difference though).
You can certainly give him your line of authority; at the present time, in conjunction with his current ordination, that becomes his line of authority. That is what I have done for my sons as I have ordained them to various AP offices.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
dubhdara-p40
New Member
#25
Thanks Alan, I think I will do just that.
dsj500
New Member
#26

PH Line of authority

My recent research in Priesthood Line of Authority, revealed your last Priesthood Office Ordination is your official Line of Authority.
aebrown
Community Administrator
#27
dsj500 wrote:My recent research in Priesthood Line of Authority, revealed your last Priesthood Office Ordination is your official Line of Authority.
That's mostly true, but only applies to certain priesthood offices; in the Melchizedek Priesthood, that is simply Elder, High Priest, and Apostle. Ordination to the office of bishop, for example, does not change your line of authority, nor does ordination as a patriarch.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
clutter.brian
New Member
#28
A member of my ward asked me for the name of the missionary who baptized her. Since the information isn't in MLS and apparently isn't kept in CHQ, is there any way to find it out?