YouthMaster

Last year I was called to be Young Men's Secretary and inherited a mess of spreadsheets (mostly outdated). As a software developer by trade, I knew there was a much better way to do this.

I began work on YouthMaster.org during Christmas of last year, and initially it was just for our ward (who loved it). I have now re-released it as Version 2.0 which supports almost-unlimited-wards which can be spawned at the drop of a hat.

YouthMaster Features:
+ YM Duty to God Tracking
+ YW Personal Progress Tracking
+ Scout Advancement
+ Attendance

All four of those are modules that can be turned on / off by the ward admin(s). In addition to the core functionality, YouthMaster provides a number of extremely useful tools, such as:
+ Interactive Housing Maps
+ Mass Emails by Quorum / Class
+ Duty to God Certificates
+ Custom Reporting Engine (with email subscriptions)
+ Private Ward File Libraries (share documents, PowerPoints, etc)

Please have a look at the short video demonstration -- there's a lot of nice UI (AJAX) functionality that makes it dead simple to use. If your ward is interested in using YouthMaster just follow the directions on the FAQ (it's free)!

http://demo.youthmaster.org/

Very impressive! I hope the church developers of LUWS 2.0 watch your demo. I'm sure they'll come away with ideas.

Since you're new to the forum, have you had a chance to look over some of the discussions we've had about web sites? Given the amount of information stored on your website, I think it will raise a red flag as far as placing information on a 3rd party web site. (Maybe not so much an issue for you since it's your site, but an issue of any other ward wanting to join.)

RussellHltn wrote:Given the amount of information stored on your website, I think it will raise a red flag as far as placing information on a 3rd party web site. (Maybe not so much an issue for you since it's your site, but an issue of any other ward wanting to join.)

However, it didn't appear that there is any automatic upload of MLS data in the site. It appeared you tell each individual to register their own account to the existing ward regisitration. I think all of your own data is entered voluntarily by yourself.

Am I mistaken?

First Matt, my compliments on the technical accomplishment as well as the look and feel of the product.

I assume you have followed the threads here about ymyw.org, and the issue of whether such sites are wtihin the bounds of Church policy and guidelines interpreting that policy. Have you received any guidance yourself on that?

On a particular side note, I see you have integrated a view of Google Maps. Are you using the Google Maps API? I have looked into that tool, but was put off by Google's terms of use.

Thanks for the feedback!

Privacy is most definitely a concern with any web application. I have a question on the YouthMaster FAQ about privacy which advises users as to potential concerns and mitigation. All the system needs in order to function (in terms of tracking DTG, PP, etc) is a name and date of birth, nothing more. The extra info (address, email, etc) is nice to facilitate some of the other tools, but is not mandatory.

And mkmurray is correct -- there are two ways to get into the system -- importing an excel spreadsheet provided by the leaders, or a user self-registering themselves.

If a new ward wants to join all at once, it's easiest if they put all the user info in the spreadsheet and email it to me and I spawn a new ward with all the users. After that, users can join ad-hoc by self-registering. Nothing comes from MLS.

And I have read some on the privacy issues around Google Maps integration. Not sure how other sites do it, but YouthMaster plots all of the addresses in client-side javascript (it does not store anything on Google's servers). The Google Maps Terms of Service are very strict about using their API (which I do use) in private/for-money applications, but I believe YouthMaster falls under the "free" category which should hopefully be less stringent.

To answer Boomerbubba, I haven't read any of the debates concerning sites such as ymyw.org, but I can tell you that recently Charles W. Dahlquist - Young Men General President visited a Bishop (friend of mine) and when the topic of DTG tracking came up, President Dahlquist told the Bishop that there are several online sites (such as ymyw) that can facilitate such tracking. So while I'm sure the church does not officially support any of our homegrown software, I think they can appreciate the need and will hopefully address it in future versions of their applications.

Again, all you need for YouthMaster.org is a name and a dob -- the end goal is to allow everyone to have the latest and most up to date information on youth progress (DTG/PP). I stress this to my users and I'll do it here -- these systems should not replace the one on one dialogue that should be happening between youth and their leaders/parents -- this is just a fancy replacement for a spreadsheet that never gets lost or outdated

mfarley wrote:The Google Maps Terms of Service are very strict about using their API (which I do use) in private/for-money applications, but I believe YouthMaster falls under the "free" category which should hopefully be less stringent.

I'm afraid my reading of the Google Maps API Terms of Serviceis much more restrictive. It says:

The API may be used only for services that are generally accessible to consumers without charge. Accordingly, You may not use the API for any service that requires a subscription or other restricted access, or for which a fee is charged.

[My emphasis]

IANAL, but I think the plain English of that agreement clearly precludes the way you use the API because your site does restrict access to authenticated users. Google allows its API to be used for free public URLs.

Please don't take my word for it. But I urge you not to dismiss my comments out of hand. Since you are already running this site, I suggest you run this past a lawyer as soon as possible. You would not want to get an unpleasant surprise someday from Google's own attorneys or those from Google's map providers.

boomerbubba wrote:IANAL

Boy, you use so many acronyms I've never seen nor heard of, most of which I have been able to figure out pretty quickly. This one, though, I had to look up...

"I am not a lawyer"

boomerbubba wrote:I'm afraid my reading of the Google Maps API Terms of Serviceis much more restrictive. It says:



IANAL, but I think the plain English of that agreement clearly precludes the way you use the API because your site does restrict access to authenticated users. Google allows its API to be used for free public URLs.

Please don't take my word for it. But I urge you not to dismiss my comments out of hand. Since you are already running this site, I suggest you run this past a lawyer as soon as possible. You would not want to get an unpleasant surprise someday from Google's own attorneys or those from Google's map providers.

At work we ran into the same issue (using the Google Maps API) so we got in contact with them and the end result was that we allowed public access to the map via URL, but our database data was not plotted via client-side javascript unless the user is logged in. I've implemented this same approach for YouthMaster to maintain compliance.

For example, browse to: http://tomball.youthmaster.org/map/ -- you get a map -- it's publicly accessible and Google is happy.

If you're a registered user, you'll get the same map, but with the extra javascript that plots addresses.

At the end of the day Google's concern was people using their maps behind *paid* subscriptions, but we still went with the publicly accessible map (as I've done on YouthMaster) to be on the safe side.

mfarley wrote:At work we ran into the same issue (using the Google Maps API) so we got in contact with them and the end result was that we allowed public access to the map via URL, but our database data was not plotted via client-side javascript unless the user is logged in. I've implemented this same approach for YouthMaster to maintain compliance.

For example, browse to: http://tomball.youthmaster.org/map/ -- you get a map -- it's publicly accessible and Google is happy.

If you're a registered user, you'll get the same map, but with the extra javascript that plots addresses.

That public URL would be enough to register with Google and obtain an application ID. (BTW, when I try that URL the map does not render, but that technical detail is beside the point here.) I could register with Google and put up a public web site that did something trivial to render a map. Google would be satisfied initially, and issue me an application ID. But if I also use that application ID for another forbidden purpose I am coloring outside the lines.

It seems to me that if "the extra javascript that plots addresses" is still making calls to the API, then you are using the API for a restricted web site, which is explicitly forbidden by the Terms of Service.

mfarley wrote: At the end of the day Google's concern was people using their maps behind *paid* subscriptions, but we still went with the publicly accessible map (as I've done on YouthMaster) to be on the safe side.

Unfortunately that is not what the language of the Terms of Service says. It does not say "... restricted access, and for which a fee is charged." It says "... restricted access, or for which a fee is charged."

Please, talk to a lawyer. I would very much like to believe that someone has found a loophole here, but I doubt it.

boomerbubba wrote:...(BTW, when I try that URL the map does not render, but that technical detail is beside the point here.)

Zoom out. It looks like it's at the intersection of the Equator and Prime Meridian, out in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Africa. But as you said, it's "beside the point."

boomer,

The map does render, it's just zoomed in 100% to the ocean off the coast of Africa (0,0). If you zoom out a dozen levels or so you'll begin to see Africa.

I appreciate your concerns but am willing to take my chances with Google. I've been an active member of their maps API developer forum since its inception and not only have had plenty of contact with them, but I maintain contact with several of their employees. The chances of a lawsuit landing in my lap have to be somewhere around 1000:1 -- what would be far more likely is a simple cease and desist email, in which case I'd happily comply.

That said, Google *does* offer their API for private sites for a small fee (you have to call and talk to a sales associate to get a quote for your site). So chances are the letter would read "We see you are using the maps and plot addresses for people logged in -- we would like you to pay for this, please contact our sales department at ###-###. But again, knowing Google well, I would be shocked if they had any concerns about YouthMaster.

mfarley,

You are free, or course, to take your chances with Google's lawyers. If it were me, and the fee for licensed use is really so reasonable, I would rather be forthright and pay it. My assumption has always been that the fee would be non-trivial.

p.s. I apologize for not figuring out the default 0,0 coordinates on the public map. That was pilot error on my part, not yours.

You have my interest piqued further about Google's business terms. The only paid license for the Google Maps API I was aware of from the Google site was this one:

Q: What is the cost of Google Maps API Premier?

A: Google Maps API Premier is extremely cost-effective, starting at just $10,000 per year. Pricing is based on the number of map page views for externally facing websites. For internal uses, it is based on the number of end users who use the application or number of vehicles you're tracking. Please contact us for more information.

$10,000 per year to start is not my idea of cheap, but then I am from the "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" school for church projects. When you say that a Google sales associate would quote "a small fee" for private web sites, are you aware of a different pricing model with better deals?

mfarley wrote:Last year I was called to be Young Men's Secretary and inherited a mess of spreadsheets (mostly outdated). As a software developer by trade, I knew there was a much better way to do this. I began work on YouthMaster.org during Christmas of last year.....

mfarley,

Its great to see some impressive work like yours and Brad.O's HT/VT. I think it will "set the tone" for the future. While the church IT guys can see the future potential here we also know it is those higher up who needs to catch the same vision. We all know talk alone gets you nowhere and to instead see ideas of actual products out there done by church members can only help furthering the cause.

It is also good to hear you have experience with the Google Map API and still maintain close contact with individuals there. It is often worth more than we realise.

boomerbubba wrote:When you say that a Google sales associate would quote "a small fee" for private web sites, are you aware of a different pricing model with better deals?

Right. It was about 2 years ago when I last spoke to them concerning the licensing. But it was the fact that we were a small government agency with only 50 users or so and did not see the justification for the $10,000 price tag. Google said to give them a call (sales associate left his contact info) and we could discuss the size of our site, our traffic, and they'd quote us a price (lower than the $10k).

I honestly can't remember what it came to, but if I had to guess it was in the $3k-$5k range.

I have to admit I had a grin on my face as I wrote "for a small fee" in the earlier post -- what Google considers a small fee is not necessarily what we do!

But again, they aren't targeting free sites like YouthMaster, their intent is to make sure they get their fair share when sites are profiting off their technology. To quote their home page "The Maps API is a free beta service, available for any web site that is free to consumers." So yes, their TOS is more strict and my arguments may not hold up in court, but I am fairly confident that it's not Google's intent to sue free religious web applications showcasing their technology

mfarley,

Thanks for the info. I am just more conservative about such things. And for my own purposes, I can't afford $3K-$5K either.

Along those lines, I have been toying with the idea of another architecure that I think would satisfy the letter of Google's TOS for the free API:

1) Build a pubilic web site that would take input from all comers in the form of addresses (or coordinates), an icon type, and a key value for each. All calls to the API would occur here.

2) Render the map (and any other desired results from the API, such as routing directions) on the public web site with a temporary, public URL, much like Google does with its own My Maps feature.

3) Within my own private authenticated site, display the map from that URL rendered within an IFrame tag. The legend matching any names, addresses, categories, etc. to the map icons would be displayed outside the IFrame. And all really private data would still be handled client-side.

4) A downside is that, because the public home page is a bona fide public URL doing something non-trivial, there is a risk that it might become too popular with strangers, who would eat up my free quota with Google, But if I did not publicize the site outside my intended audience (fellow LDS users), that risk would be livable.

What do you think of such an architecture? I think it would thread the needle between the Church's privacy guidelines and Google's legal TOS, and would still be free.

(Sorry to fork this thread in my own direction re Google. In theory this solution might be applicable to your own site, too, but you are the architect there. I do think it would be unfortunate if your own excellent site got undermined by legal uncertainties -- especially since your map feature, while very attractive, does not seem critical to the core functionality of your tracking application. And for purposes of attracting users, wards would probably feel more comfortable if there was no ooching on the legal TOS.)

Some great work here! Here are the issues that might arise should I propose using this tool in my stake:

1. Our demographics are such that our stake has structured the Scouting program to combine boys from multiple wards into combined Scout units. (Under the hood, each ward is still chartered, but they function as a single unit with members from multiple wards.) To further complicate things, the combined units are composed differently for different age levels, so wards 1-6 are combined in one Venture Crew, but wards 1-3 and 4-6 are combined into two Varsity Teams, and wards 1-2 and 3-4 and 5-6 are combined into three Scout Troops. How would Youthmaster handle that? (Do you end up with one pseudo-"ward" per scout unit so you can slice it right, grant permissions, etc.?)

2. If we could combine YM as above, would it be possible to then also track Young Women WITHOUT the combinations (by true ward)? (Because our young women are NOT combined across wards.) I'm guessing "yes" but only under another set of pseudo-"wards", with only the Young Women features enabled.

3. Any thought of adding "Faith in God for Girls" and "Faith in God for Boys"?

Thanks again.

As a former 11-year-old scout leader, cognizant that this program is sort of the red-headed stepchild of scouting in the Church, I would suggest an option to add them into the program. (Of course, the 11-year-old scouts are part of the Primary, but as far as the BSA is concerned, they are scouts like the others.)

The goal of the Church program for 11-year-olds is to get each boy to First Class before he turns 12. (Not all succeed, so their records needs to carry over to the Deacons.) So many of the scouting requirements you are tracking would really apply to the 11-year-olds.

I recall that when I was in that calling, the YM organization and scoutmaster were using ymyw.org. and our boys were sort of left out.

(BTW, if you think Google's TOS is complicated, try navigating the BSA rules and the special rules the Church imposes on the 11-year-old scouting program. For that you really do need a Boston lawyer )

mfarley wrote:But again, they aren't targeting free sites like YouthMaster, their intent is to make sure they get their fair share when sites are profiting off their technology. ... So yes, their TOS is more strict and my arguments may not hold up in court, but I am fairly confident that it's not Google's intent to sue free religious web applications showcasing their technology

mfarley,

In the interest of full disclosure, note that I am now scraping egg off my faceregarding a somewhat similar issue over Yahoo's API. Like you, I don't really fear any action by the online service in question. But I am withdrawing my own application from use unless I can be confident that it complies with the letter of the TOS.

boomerbubba, I commend you for such diligence on the various TOS.. I should probably put it on the to-do list to allow wards to disable the Google Map if it makes them feel uncomfortable.

On that note, that's generally been my development process for YouthMaster (and other projects) -- release a v1, then take notes on suggestions over the course of a few months. When time permits, develop and release a v2 incorporating the bulk of the new ideas and suggestions.

I plan to carry forward in that same manner -- so v3 (release 3?) will include an option to disable/enable the mapping tool.

I also like the idea of 11yr old scouts (I too was an 11 yr old scoutmaster). The system currently allows "anyone" to register, so 11 yr olds can get in, they just won't show up on the "Deacons Scout Progress" page. It will be very trivial (< 5 minutes) to add a separate link to "11yr Old Progress" and just filter on any males < 12 yrs. That could either be a v3 feature or a quick addition if someone really needs it.

As far as "Faith in God" -- that's never been in scope, and my knee-jerk reaction is to push back. I believe a lot of software applications become bloated and loose any hope of being user friendly due to the amount of screens, options, buttons, checks, features (the user eventually gets lost in the UI). I firmly believe in KISS (Keep-It-Simple-Stupid). I fear if I move into "Faith in God" then "PrimaryMaster" and "EldersQuorumMaster", etc, will be the next ones knocking at the door. I'd prefer to keep the focus on youth (12-18) with 11 yr scouting as the exception. .... All that said, I used to make the same argument about adding YW/Personal Progress, and finally caved So who knows.

Finally, on the complicated mix of wards/troops -- the scenario you described sounds like a nightmare to translate into proper use cases. I'm sure it is possible (anything's possible) from a technical standpoint to develop the code to support your scenario, but what would it do to the codebase in terms of complexity and maintenance going forward? As an already supported solution I'd offer you the option of giving the various troops/segregations their own instance of YouthMaster. (i.e. Ward1-Troop1.youthmaster.org Ward1-Troop2.youthmaster.org, etc). Then you'd need Ward1-YW.youthmaster.org. Unfortunately, the segregation would diminish the value of tools like the Send Email and Maps which really need everyone in the same database -- but at least for tracking requirements and EditGrid spreadsheets you'd be in good shape.

There has been much debate in this thread concerning the legality of YouthMaster using Google Map's API (due to the fact that YouthMaster requires users to login).

Google has finally clarified / updated their Terms of Service to explicitly state that implementations such as YouthMaster's are completely legal and do comply with their ToS.

See: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html (section 9)

9. License Requirements. Google's licenses above are subject to your adherence to the following requirements:

9.1 Free, Public Accessibility to Your Maps API Implementation. Your Maps API Implementation must be generally accessible to users without charge. You may require users to log in to your Maps API Implementation if you do not require users to pay a fee.

and from: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/faq.html

Can I use the Google Maps APIs on a site that is password protected? Yes, you can, though you should consult the Terms of Service before using the Google Maps APIs on a password protected website. If consumers can easily sign up for a password without charge or if the purpose of the password protected map is to enhance the publicly available map (i.e. administration), then your site is likely within the Terms of Service. If this is not the case, you will need to use Google Maps API Premier.

mfarley wrote:There has been much debate in this thread concerning the legality of YouthMaster using Google Map's API (due to the fact that YouthMaster requires users to login).

Google has finally clarified / updated their Terms of Service to explicitly state that implementations such as YouthMaster's are completely legal and do comply with their ToS.

See: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html (section 9)
and from: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/faq.html

Unfortunately, Googles's new terms contine to be ambiguous. They allow login (actually, that language from the FAQ is not new.) But according to the title of that section, the login is supposed to be for "Free, Public Accessibility to Your Maps API Implementation." And it still states, "Your Maps API Implementation must be generally accessible to users without charge."

Your site, of course, does not allow the general public to log into these youth web sites. Nor, I believe, do you allow just anyone to set up an account. Can a local Baha'i congregation, biker gang, gay social club, etc, set up free accounts and use your service?

boomerbubba wrote:Your site, of course, does not allow the general public to log into these youth web sites. Nor, I believe, do you allow just anyone to set up an account. Can a local Baha'i congregation, biker gang, gay social club, etc, set up free accounts and use your service?

I have yet to turn anyone away and have no plans to do so. If other organizations (gay or not) feel like they can benefit from YouthMaster's features, they're welcome to join.

If you read Google's latest blog post on the new ToS (http://googlegeodevelopers.blogspot.com ... oduct.html) it looks like they're trying to make it more clear to people like us that things like YouthMaster are "okay" and are giving us a green light.

That said, we know how lawyers work. They can twist anything to fit their purposes and arguments. I'm sure there are lawyers out there who can make great arguments both for and against YouthMaster's usage of the Maps API.

So I can either live in fear of such lawyers, or trust in Google and my interpretation of their ToS. For me, the obvious choice is the latter. And as stated before, wards can turn on/off the mapping feature.

mfarley wrote:IIf you read Google's latest blog post on the new ToS (http://googlegeodevelopers.blogspot.com ... oduct.html) it looks like they're trying to make it more clear to people like us that things like YouthMaster are "okay" and are giving us a green light..

I have posted a request for clarification on the Google Maps API Group posting announcing it, which solicited such questions. Hopefully, Google will clarify things. Their existing language does not.

Meanwhile, I assume you will be modifying your site to comply with the new requirement that you post a link to Google's Terms of Use, along with a requirement that your own users agree to those terms.

The new Google Terms of Service for the free Maps API also includes some very disturbing language about what rights you as a developer/user grant to Google:

11. Licenses from You to Google.

11.1 Content License.

(a) You retain copyright and any other rights you already hold in Your Content. By submitting, posting or displaying Your Content you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute Your Content. This license is for the purpose of enabling Google to display, distribute and promote the Service.
(b) You give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to access, reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute business listings data contained in Maps API Implementations. For example, if you create a store locator application, Google may use the business listings information from the store locator to improve the Google Services such as Google Maps and local search.
(c) You agree that this license includes a right for Google to make Your Content available to other companies, organizations or individuals with whom Google has relationships for the provision of syndicated services, and to use such Content in connection with the provision of those services.
(d) You understand and agree that Google, in performing the required technical steps to provide the Service to our users, may do the following:
(i) transmit or distribute your Content over various public networks and in various media; and
(ii) make such changes to your Content as are necessary to conform and adapt that Content to the technical requirements of connecting networks, devices, services or media.

Several members of the develpment community using the free API are up in arms over this. It hardly looks like a suitable platform for publishing private data privately.

One must remember that online giants such as Google, Microsoft and Yahoo are businesses. And while they give away "free" services as part of their marketing plan, ultimately it is to make their business models profitable. Particularly with all the "free" stuff made available in the mapping area, I often am reminded of the beads and blankets given away by the Hudsons Bay Company to Native American tribes. That arrangement did not work out so well for the parties receiving the gifts.

For example, if you create a store locator application, Google may use the business listings information from the store locator to improve the Google Services such as Google Maps and local search.

Well, it certainly doesn't take much of a leap of logic that if you were to tag a location with "Brown, John and Sara" that it could wind up in the public eye. There's no mention of privacy in any of that.

RussellHltn wrote:Well, it certainly doesn't take much of a leap of logic that if you were to tag a location with "Brown, John and Sara" that it could wind up in the public eye. There's no mention of privacy in any of that.

The basic thing is that the free Google Maps API is -- or at least was -- not supposed to be used for private web sites in the first place, only for public web sites. In section 11, Google now goes further and states that the implementer has granted Google a license to take that publicly published content and reproduce it elsewhere..

The only significant area where these new terms are more permissive, as far as I can see, is that developers now can build free desktop applications using this API. It used to be restricted to use in web sites only. However, the new lanugage there is somewhat confusing. That relaxed provision is not really relevant to the web site described in this thread, anyway.

I notice that in response to questions from its Maps API developer community, Google last week revised its legal terms again. See this official Google blog post.

After reading that and the new terms of service, I for one am satisfied that login-protected sites such as YouthMaster comply with Google's new terms. In addition, Google removed the language (which I quoted above) that had offended many developers by claiming a right to republish their content for promotional purposes.

As an aside, I also am encouraged that Google's terms now allow use of the API in free desktop applications, not just web sites. I think that opens up possibilities for incorporating mapping functionality into local apps while ensuring the privacy of content such as name-address data for LDS units' members.

Excellent news, thanks for the update boomerbubba!

Hopefully other corporations will follow Google's example.

Very interesting debate. I wonder if there's an Open Source maps service that can be used without all this headaches.

marianomarini_vi wrote:Very interesting debate. I wonder if there's an Open Source maps service that can be used without all this headaches.

The closest thing to that I am aware of is OpenStreetMap.org. Unfortunately so far, the map content there is not nearly as good as commercial sources, and the programming interfaces are skimpy. It is hard for volunteers without deep pockets to compete with multibillion-dollar corporations on quality.