How long after callings are changed in MLS do they appear in lds.org

I was recently sustained as Executive Secretary in our ward and the calling was updated in MLS on Sunday, but when I go to lds.org and sign in, it still shows the previous Executive Sec'y and I am unable to access any of the leadership tools and menus. How often are the callings synced up between MLS and the website?

When the system is working as it should, callings appear in CDOL (and thus in the Directory on LDS.org) within a few minutes -- certainly less than an hour.

However, last week there were problems with CDOL processing requests from MLS, so it took longer (days instead of minutes) for callings to appear. That said, I haven't heard of such problems happening this week.

If the change is not in CDOL, you might want to check MLS to see that the position was put in as a standard position, not a custom position, and then toggle the setting apart check box and do another Send/Receive. On occasion, the information MLS sends does not get processed into CDOL, and this will resend it. Then give it another chance to work its way through the system.

What if the position is not tagged as being set apart, will that prevent CDOL from being updated?

jonejam2 wrote:What if the position is not tagged as being set apart, will that prevent CDOL from being updated?

No. CDOL should update whether or not the person has been set apart.

Toggling the Set Apart flag on Custom Callings in MLS is not triggering updates to CDOL.
On Tuesday evening 27-Nov Utah time, I changed the Set Apart flag on four custom callings (two in YW and two in Facilities) that had mysteriously dropped from the CDOL listing. I did a send/receive, and went into Bishopric meeting. Over an hour later, I changed the Set Apart flag on the four callings back to their correct values, changed the incumbents on some other STANDARD callings, and did another send/receive. As of Wednesday afternoon 28-Nov Utah time, CDOL is still not showing the CUSTOM callings, but the changes I made to the holders of the standard callings was updated on CDOL.

rontilby wrote:Toggling the Set Apart flag on Custom Callings in MLS is not triggering updates to CDOL. ... I changed the Set Apart flag on four custom callings (two in YW and two in Facilities) that had mysteriously dropped from the CDOL listing. ... As of Wednesday afternoon 28-Nov Utah time, CDOL is still not showing the CUSTOM callings...

In CDOL, did you look in "Other Callings" for those missing positions?

rontilby wrote:Toggling the Set Apart flag on Custom Callings in MLS is not triggering updates to CDOL.

It appears that one of two things may be happening. First, the organization structure of both CDOL and MLS changed with MLS 3.5 and some of your custom positions may have moved to the Other Callings area of CDOL. (This is probably not your case, since you mentioned that the callings you are missing were in two organizations that still exist in the structure.)

So the other thing might be that there is a known bug relating to MLS populating CDOL, particularly with custom callings, and you may just have run into that bug. The developers are aware of it and are working to fix it in the next MLS update.

The standard callings interface between CDOL and MLS seems to be working, as you have discovered.

lajackson wrote:If the change is not in CDOL, you might want to check MLS to see that the position was put in as a standard position, not a custom position, and then toggle the setting apart check box and do another Send/Receive. On occasion, the information MLS sends does not get processed into CDOL, and this will resend it. Then give it another chance to work its way through the system.

I followed your advice, and last night (Wednesday) I went back into MLS. I deleted myself from the Executuve Secretary calling, then re-inserted my name and did a send/receive. After a couple of hours, I checked lds.org and I was indeed there, but now our ward is shown in both CDOL and lds.org as having 2 executive secretaries, both myself and my predecessor, even though MLS only shows one. How can we correct this?

prpeterson wrote:...now our ward is shown in both CDOL and lds.org as having 2 executive secretaries, both myself and my predecessor, even though MLS only shows one. How can we correct this?

Follow the instructions for Correcting duplicate or missing callings.

My philosophy on this subject is: With the exception of contact information MLS is the only place to fix issues. Make sure MLS is accurate and the rest of the data bases will soon fall in sync.

Gary_Miller wrote:My philosophy on this subject is: With the exception of contact information MLS is the only place to fix issues.

Correct.

Gary_Miller wrote: Make sure MLS is accurate and the rest of the data bases will soon fall in sync.

If only it worked that way. Unfortunately, there are times when MLS gets out of sync with the rest of the system and will NOT fall back in sync automatically. In that situation one has to follow the Correcting duplicate or missing callings procedure to get things back in sync.

I've had my calling as the Ward building rep now for about 2 months and it still hasn't been changed in our ward listings, infact there are alot of things in our ward directory that need changing and cleaned up.. We've had people move out of our ward and are still listed in the directory... Anyone have any ideas on how to get this taken care of ?

robertericmuttenthaler wrote:I've had my calling as the Ward building rep now for about 2 months and it still hasn't been changed in our ward listings, in fact there are a lot of things in our ward directory that need changing and cleaned up.. We've had people move out of our ward and are still listed in the directory... Anyone have any ideas on how to get this taken care of ?

These are all things that the ward clerk should be taking care of; he is responsible to make sure that callings are correctly recorded and that member records are properly moved in and out of the ward. I'd suggest that you talk with him. If he has problems, he can work with the stake clerk.

There is also the possibility that the ward clerk is keeping MLS current, but is not currently concerning himself with the data on LDS.ORG until after Tithing Settlement is over, and some of the outstanding software bugs are fixed.

rontilby wrote:There is also the possibility that the ward clerk is keeping MLS current, but is not currently concerning himself with the data on LDS.ORG until after Tithing Settlement is over, and some of the outstanding software bugs are fixed.

That's what we're doing. Having MLS current is all that matters to us.. Its our belief that the other data systems will soon catch up.

Gary_Miller wrote:That's what we're doing. Having MLS current is all that matters to us.. Its our belief that the other data systems will soon catch up.

The problems with that are:
1) Currently CDOL is defined as the system of record, so the only way to 'sync' the two systems is from CDOL down to MLS. If CDOL is not correct, then anytime a sync occurs you will lose what you have only in MLS. Part of the reason for this decision is to support Clerk Resources being able to edit callings. As that moves forward MLS can't be the authoritative source.
2) If it doesn't make it to CDOL people won't have any rights on lds.org that they should have.
3) As any members look online they will not see the correct information.

As a note MLS 3.5.1 was suppose to request a 'sync' from CDOL, but due to a misunderstanding that 'sync' will be pushed out soon (I think this week). Hopefully this will help solve some of the issues with callings not making it to lds.org.

Ryan, With all due respect, for Callings, MLS is the only system that Clerks can currently directly control. The sync from MLS to CDOL has been broken in various ways since shortly before the MLS 3.5 rollout began. I've tried multiple times to get CDOL to correctly reflect the correct current callings in my ward, including the Correcting duplicate or missing callings procedures, and CDOL is still out of sync. (This includes an attempt with the MLS 3.5.1 release that was pushed down and installed last Sunday.) While CDOL may be the declared system of record for callings, local clerks currently are unable to make it correctly reflect reality.

Ryan, thank you for the information on how this works. I'll bump a check against the CDL and make sure we are in sync. So far I have seen no problems coming back into MLS so I think we will be Ok.

I performed a Unit Refresh per the instructions on the Correcting Duplicate or missing callings wiki (https://tech.lds.org/wiki/Callings#Corr ... g_callings), however the callings on lds.org are still not updating. Everything worked correctly until the update to 3.5. MLS contains the correct information however the changes are not reflected on directory or the clerk section of lds.org.

Any other suggestions I can try to get MLS and the website in sync?

cspring wrote:I performed a Unit Refresh per the instructions on the Correcting Duplicate or missing callings wiki (https://tech.lds.org/wiki/Callings#Corr ... g_callings), however the callings on lds.org are still not updating. Everything worked correctly until the update to 3.5. MLS contains the correct information however the changes are not reflected on directory or the clerk section of lds.org.

Any other suggestions I can try to get MLS and the website in sync?

If you tried this today then you won't see the changes yet. See the MLS callings updates to lds.org temporarily not available thread for more details.

rontilby wrote:Ryan, With all due respect, for Callings, MLS is the only system that Clerks can currently directly control. The sync from MLS to CDOL has been broken in various ways since shortly before the MLS 3.5 rollout began. I've tried multiple times to get CDOL to correctly reflect the correct current callings in my ward, including the Correcting duplicate or missing callings procedures, and CDOL is still out of sync. (This includes an attempt with the MLS 3.5.1 release that was pushed down and installed last Sunday.) While CDOL may be the declared system of record for callings, local clerks currently are unable to make it correctly reflect reality.

I have been battling with these issues now since August. I have followed the procedure for Correcting duplicate or missing callings so many times I have lost count. I have phoned and emailed Local Unit Support almost as many times. They keep promising that they will escalate the issue and get back to me with a solution. It hasn't happened.

Quite frankly, I am seriously considering deleting all callings from MLS and buying a magnet board. At least that will work and stay consistent. Technology that malfunctions is worse than no technology.

rpyne wrote:Quite frankly, I am seriously considering deleting all callings from MLS and buying a magnet board. At least that will work and stay consistent. Technology that malfunctions is worse than no technology.

Except that a bunch of members will lose access to the web sites that are part of their calling. JonesRK seems to indicate that he may have fixed the problem and is trying to get it into production. We'll have to see what happens.

russellhltn wrote:

rpyne wrote:Quite frankly, I am seriously considering deleting all callings from MLS and buying a magnet board. At least that will work and stay consistent. Technology that malfunctions is worse than no technology.

Except that a bunch of members will lose access to the web sites that are part of their calling. JonesRK seems to indicate that he may have fixed the problem and is trying to get it into production. We'll have to see what happens.

When the callings don't update properly, they don't have the access anyway.

We were not able to get the fix into production yesterday. I have turned off processing for the weekend, so that on Monday when we get the fix in we can run all the changes, so they don't get lost. The downsides are that you won't see changes you make this weekend until about Tuesday, and trying to request a refresh won't send it down until then either.

rpyne wrote:

russellhltn wrote:

rpyne wrote:Quite frankly, I am seriously considering deleting all callings from MLS and buying a magnet board. At least that will work and stay consistent. Technology that malfunctions is worse than no technology.

Except that a bunch of members will lose access to the web sites that are part of their calling. JonesRK seems to indicate that he may have fixed the problem and is trying to get it into production. We'll have to see what happens.

When the callings don't update properly, they don't have the access anyway.

If you successfully delete everyone, then then those who are fine will lose their callings. And if you're not successful in deleting them on-line, then the web pages are still wrong and confusing.

I think your statement was a statement of frustration. But as a practical measure is not likely to be successful by any standard. In the short term I think you're better off printing out MLS and posting the list.

JonesRK wrote:1) Currently CDOL is defined as the system of record, so the only way to 'sync' the two systems is from CDOL down to MLS. If CDOL is not correct, then anytime a sync occurs you will lose what you have only in MLS. Part of the reason for this decision is to support Clerk Resources being able to edit callings. As that moves forward MLS can't be the authoritative source.

Herein lies the root of all the problems. In any distributed data system, the system of record must needs be the point of data entry. There simply is no other way to maintain data integrity. It is a simple fact of life that synchronizations fail and unless the system of record is the point of primary data entry, data will get corrupted.

If CDOL is going to remain the system of record, then calling updates made through MLS need to be transmitted directly to CDOL and not reflected in MLS until they are synced back from CDOL.

rpyne wrote:In any distributed data system, the system of record must needs be the point of data entry.

What has transpired here is a change from a distributed data system, as far as callings are concerned, to a centralized data system.

rpyne wrote:If CDOL is going to remain the system of record, then calling updates made through MLS need to be transmitted directly to CDOL and not reflected in MLS until they are synced back from CDOL.

I understand why CDOL needs to bee the system of record. But I don't think not reflecting changes sent up to CDOL in local MLS until it is synced back from CDOL is a good user interface solution. This could confuse a local MLS user into thinking his change was not sent and result in multiple attempts to resend changes. I am thinking there needs to be some method of letting the local MLS user know that the change has been sent but not yet synchronized. That method of notification can involve a quite a bit of programming change to MLS.

jdlessley wrote:

rpyne wrote:In any distributed data system, the system of record must needs be the point of data entry.

What has transpired here is a change from a distributed data system, as far as callings are concerned, to a centralized data system.

If it were a centralized data system, there would be no synchronization issue because all applications would retrieve the data from the central database every time it was viewed.

rpyne wrote:

jdlessley wrote:

rpyne wrote:In any distributed data system, the system of record must needs be the point of data entry.

What has transpired here is a change from a distributed data system, as far as callings are concerned, to a centralized data system.

If it were a centralized data system, there would be no synchronization issue because all applications would retrieve the data from the central database every time it was viewed.

A centralized database is a database located and maintained in one location. There is no requirement for the data to be retrieved each time it is viewed. Centralization identifies the preeminant source of data. Data can be copied from the centralized database for viewing or manipulation. Copying data from a database for viewing and manipulation is necessary when there is no continuous connection with the centralized database. For callings, MLS maintains a copy of a subset of data stored in CDOL. Synchronization is necessary to update the copy of data on MLS with CDOL. MLS also is able to update the centralized database.

jdlessley wrote:For callings, MLS maintains a copy of a subset of data stored in CDOL. Synchronization is necessary to update the copy of data on MLS with CDOL. MLS also is able to update the centralized database.

If that doesn't fall withing your definition of distributed, we have vastly different dictionaries.

The point is, that the system connecting MLS, CDOL, and lds.org Directory is not working correctly and hasn't for several months. I have tried the data refresh procedure at least once a week since early August and still have people showing up on CDOL and in the lds.org directory that have been released since the first Sunday of August, and people who have been called since then that are not showing in CDOL or the lds.org directory, plus a significant number of duplicates showing in both. It appears to be completely random as to what gets updated and what doesn't, when something actually does get changed.

I have spent many hours on the phone trying, usually without success, to reach someone in Local Unit Support that can help resolve the issue. The few times I have actually made it through to a real person, as opposed to eternal hold, I have been promised that the issue would be escalated and someone would phone me withing a few days. No one has EVER attempted to phone me to discuss the issue. When I have tried to get some help through MLS messaging, all they do is tell me to phone in when I am sitting in front of the ward computer, which I have tried/done numerous times.

Simply put, the inaction on getting the issues resolved is inexcusable.

Note this post and this post in the MLS callings updates to lds.org temporarily not available thread.

rpyne wrote:The point is, that the system connecting MLS, CDOL, and lds.org Directory is not working correctly and hasn't for several months. I have tried the data refresh procedure at least once a week since early August and still have people showing up on CDOL and in the lds.org directory that have been released since the first Sunday of August, and people who have been called since then that are not showing in CDOL or the lds.org directory, plus a significant number of duplicates showing in both. It appears to be completely random as to what gets updated and what doesn't, when something actually does get changed.

There have been a few problems that I know of during this time period.
1) Once CDOL released 3.1 to support MLS 3.5 in beta there were some issues we hadn't found in testing. The main 2 here were some new callings from MLS 3.4.3 would end up in the wrong groups in CDOL and refresh requests were incompatible between CDOL 3.1 and MLS 3.4.3.
2) The initial releases of MLS 3.5 beta had some bugs that corrupted some of the callings in CDOL.
3) The data cleanup efforts from #1 and #2 exposed/aggravated a bug in CDOL that under load caused CDOL to drop subsequent unrelated MLS data until the load went away.
4) Some server maintenance caused an issue with one weekend's processing. This bug started showing up at the same time as #3 which helped obfuscate #3 an extra week.

rpyne wrote:Simply put, the inaction on getting the issues resolved is inexcusable.

At this point (with today's release of the fix for #3) all of these are resolved. Many people's MLS data and CDOL data are likely out of sync so comparing the two and following the steps in Correcting duplicate or missing callings to bring them back in sync.

If that doesn't work or you are seeing errors after that, then I would like to know about them.

Thanks, for your patience with the bumps in these releases.

Woo Hoo! After four months of fighting the problem, I finally have them all in sync, after doing exactly what everyone I talked to at Local Unit Support and several people here on the forums kept telling me NOT to do. I deleted all callings from MLS, several times, with refreshes in between. Once they all were cleared from MLS, CDOL, and the lds.org Directory, I put the callings all back in and everything is in sync.

The only remaining issue is that the Chorister shows as a standard position in MLS but as a custom position in CDOL.

rpyne wrote:Woo Hoo! After four months of fighting the problem, I finally have them all in sync, after doing exactly what everyone I talked to at Local Unit Support and several people here on the forums kept telling me NOT to do. I deleted all callings from MLS, several times, with refreshes in between. Once they all were cleared from MLS, CDOL, and the lds.org Directory, I put the callings all back in and everything is in sync.

However, if you read the post just above yours, it appears the problem may have been fixed. So hopefully it can be fixed without going though that drastic an action.