Deposit a Check Written to the Troop?

Is it possible to set up in some way a wards account such that we can deposit checks written to "Boy Scout Troop ###" ?

Church units are authorized only one bank account. In the U.S. that account is a bank concentration account. See the finance section in Handbook 1. There is also a June 2011 MLS message regarding checks made out to the BSA or to a specific troop. See this thread.

I'm very aware of the one-account-per-unit policy - it's this very policy that's generating my question. There is a very legitimate need for a ward to be able to deposit a check written to the unit's Boy Scout troop into the Other category of the one allowed account for the ward. This would solve a number of problem situations.

I'm not talking about a check written to the BSA. A check written to the BSA is radically different than a check written to Boy Scout Troop <your troop number>. I'm referring to a check written to the latter.

If someone writes a check to me and someone else writes a check to my wife, we can deposit them both into our single checking account. Likewise with my business partner and our shared bank account.

What I'm asking is, can our one account for the ward be set up to allow the depositing of checks written to our units Scout troop. If there is, I'd like to do that. If not, I guess I'd like to ask if anyone can think of a reason why this shouldn't be allowed. It sure seems like an easy way to solve a few sticky problems with Scout funding.

ckmcdonald wrote:I'm not talking about a check written to the BSA. A check written to the BSA is radically different than a check written to Boy Scout Troop <your troop number>. I'm referring to a check written to the latter.

If you read the MLS message more closely you will see that it addresses checks written to the BSA as well as checks written to a specific troop. Any troop, even a troop sponsored by a Church unit, is separate entity from the Church. The bank receiving Church unit bank concentration deposits can accept checks written only to the Church or the ward/branch.

ckmcdonald wrote:If someone writes a check to me and someone else writes a check to my wife, we can deposit them both into our single checking account. Likewise with my business partner and our shared bank account.

These situations involve legal or contractual relationships in a joint account with a banking entity. There is no such relationship between the BSA and the Church or a troop and the Church. They are separate unrelated entities.

ckmcdonald wrote:What I'm asking is, can our one account for the ward be set up to allow the depositing of checks written to our units Scout troop.

In the U.S., Church units do not own the bank account. It is a deposit concentration account used to aggregate funds into an account owned by the Church. As such only deposits for the Church can be made and Church units are merely authorized depositors. Since checks written to the BSA or a specific troop are not made out to the Church or designated Church units, the bank cannot accept the deposit.

jdlessley wrote:The bank receiving Church unit bank concentration deposits can accept checks written only to the Church or the ward/branch.

I believe this to be true - although I was hoping that someone would say there is a way to set it up such that the troop name could be added to the account so that checks written to the ward's troop could also be deposited.

jdlessley wrote:These situations involve legal or contractual relationships in a joint account with a banking entity. There is no such relationship between the BSA and the Church or a troop and the Church. They are separate unrelated entities.

In the case of my business partner, there are no contractual or marital relationships - we simply have our two names on one shared account. They are personal names but they could have easily been corporate, LLC or trust names, or a mixture. All I'm saying is I would find it hard to believe that the Church, if it wanted to, couldn't add the ward's troop name as a valid depositor to the account. There might be issues related with this that my simple mind can't comprehend, but at face value this seems like an easy solution for several frustrating situations troop leaders are having.

Also, stating that the troop and ward are completely separate and unrelated entities is not completely accurate when considering the financial side. If someone wants to push funds from the once-a-year fundraiser into the troop, how is that done? Only by writing a check to the Church. Ignoring the fundraiser, how is the troop funded? Completely by the Church. In fact, from a financial point of view it's hard to separate the two and call them separate and unrelated entities.

jdlessley wrote:In the U.S., Church units do not own the bank account. It is a deposit concentration account used to aggregate funds into an account owned by the Church. As such only deposits for the Church can be made and Church units are merely authorized depositors. Since checks written to the BSA or a specific troop are not made out to the Church or designated Church units, the bank cannot accept the deposit.

Again, I find it hard to believe the Church couldn't add the troop name to the account - allowing for checks written to the troop to be deposited into the proper Other account. I was hoping (but not really expecting) to hear that this was already done or could be set up easily just by asking. That would have made my day - as well as the troop leaders in our ward who are driving me from the other side. I'll also admit that although I realize that this forum isn't formally monitored by the Church Financial Department, I started this thread in hopes it would seed a movement toward such a solution if indeed it is realistic.

jdlessley wrote:These situations involve legal or contractual relationships in a joint account with a banking entity. There is no such relationship between the BSA and the Church or a troop and the Church. They are separate unrelated entities.

Actually, that is not entirely correct. Every year, the ward signs a contract with the local BSA Council which permits the ward to use the BSA program materials in connection with the ward's troop. The ward charters a troop with the BSA. The troop does not exist outside of this relationship with its chartered organization. The troop belongs to the ward. All of the troop's equipment is the ward's. It is true that the BSA council and the troop are unrelated entities. It is not true that the ward and troop are unrelated organizations.

Now, without getting too much into tax policy, which (1) it's too early for me to think about, and (2) is prohibited by the forum, there are certain tax implications of taking on the task of funding a troop, including considerations of whether the troop's fundraising is incidental to the church's purpose. In my opinion, the Church has decided to avoid these implications altogether by funding everything from the ward's budget. In doing so, they didn't eliminate the ties between the ward and the troop. The troop is still owned by the ward. All assets, financial or otherwise, belong to the ward, not the council. But the Church has chosen to avoid problems with a "Troop account" by mandating that the ward have only the single account. As a result, there is nowhere for checks made out to Troop 1820 to be deposited that has the name of Troop 1820.

We receive checks made out to the following on a regular basis:
-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
-LDS Church
-Troop ###
-Bishop XXXXXX

We have processed and deposited them into our account with no problem for 30+ years.

mhackwell wrote:We receive checks made out to the following on a regular basis:
-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
-LDS Church
-Troop ###
-Bishop XXXXXX

We have processed and deposited them into our account with no problem for 30+ years.

If this were to happen in my unit I'd process deposits for the first two just fine, but I'd be retuurning checks for the last two and teaching members the correct way. I really don't like to contribute to mistakes by ignoring them. Sure you might be able to slip this by a bank that is nice and looks the other way at simple discrepency like this, but I am fairly certain direction from our called and set apart leaders in Salt Lake would be that this should not happen.

It is apparent from the comments following mine in post # 4 that I was not clear in stating that my comments are in regard to banking and holding bank accounts. In this regard to banking and bank accounts there is no relationship between the BSA and the Church and no relationship between a specific troop and the Church. It is the chartering organization of a troop that determines the financial relationship with the troop. The Church has chosen not to allow financing of a troop in the traditional manner nor to allow bank accounts to be created. This is what I meant in my second paragraph when I said "There is no such relationship between the BSA and the Church or a troop and the Church. They are separate unrelated entities." An LDS troop cannot create a bank account simply because the Church does not permit it. Therefore there is no banking relationship between the troop and the Church.

ckmcdonald wrote:In the case of my business partner, there are no contractual or marital relationships - we simply have our two names on one shared account.

The contract is with the bank. When the account is opened a contract is created in which the parties who will have access to the account are identified.

The type of bank account for the business partners and married couples are checking accounts (and possibly savings accounts) and the many variations thereof. The type of bank account a ward or branch deposits funds into is a deposit concentration account. It is different from a checking account. A deposit concentration account is an account used to aggregate funds from several locations into one centralized account. Funds deposited into a concentration account do not remain there. They are transferred to the centralized account quite quickly. No funds can be withdrawn by authorized depositors. There is no ownership of the account by the authorized depositors.

The Church's bank, Zion National Bank, has such accounts and agreements with other banking institutions to aggregate Church unit deposits. Checks deposited to a concentration account should only be written to the owner of the centralized account or to authorized depositors of the concentration account. You can go to your local bank or branch office where deposits are made and see the letter of agreement for the concentration account.

ckmcdonald wrote:Again, I find it hard to believe the Church couldn't add the troop name to the account ...

The troop is not a unit of the Church like stakes/districts and wards/branches are. Troops are sponsored by the Church and chartered through the BSA. The account only has the Church as a name on the account. Wards and branches are provided as authorized depositors. I doubt that it is a simple matter of adding a troop as an authorized depositor since they would not be making any deposits. All donations are processed by the ward/branch. No funds are processed by the troop. Therefore they are not and cannot be an authorized depositor.

mhackwell wrote:We receive checks made out to the following on a regular basis:
-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
-LDS Church
-Troop ###
-Bishop XXXXXX

We have processed and deposited them into our account with no problem for 30+ years.

But do we not follow guidance from the Church that asks us not to engage in such practices? The June 2011 MLS message specifically stated:

Only checks made out to the ward or branch name (or Church name) will be accepted at the deposit bank.

"Only checks made out to the ward or branch name (or Church name) will be accepted at the deposit bank."

I know of another situation where Salt Lake said the deposit bank would not accept something. In addition to a stake unit, I have another (finance only) unit loaded on my MLS so I can run finances for an area YW Camp. So I have two sets of checks, deposit slips and endorsement stamps one set with the stake name on it and one with the Camp name on it. Occasionally a stake will send funds meant for the camp on a check made out to our stake. A local leader told me to try and just double endorse the check by stamping it with our stake endorsement, then with the camp endorsement right next to it. After I tried it once, I had to call Salt Lake about something else and mentioned it to them. They said that there was no way the bank would accept a check that way and we should have returned the check to the payee and ask that they void and issue another made out to the camp. Well it turns out that the bank does accept checks endorsed like that and more then one has gone through. I still follow-up with stakes and ask them to make the corection as often as I can because it's the way our leaders in Salk Lake have asked it to be done.

wrigjef wrote:Well it turns out that the bank does accept checks endorsed like that and more then one has gone through.

The bank errs in doing so and does it at risk. Bank error in your favor. But it should not work.

How many of you out there would like it if CHQ officially set up every wards account so that it allowed the depositing of checks written to the units Scout troop? What problem would it solve for you?

ckmcdonald wrote: What problem would it solve for you?

In our case, this does not solve a problem for us because there is no problem to solve. We use the current budget process exclusively.

It's simply been a matter of education. There are very few cases where someone might be tempted to make a check out to the troop, and in each case there is some sort of communication related to the fundraiser or scout camp. We just make sure that those communications clearly state who to make the check out to (which is a very helpful practice for any situation where payment by check is an option). Years ago we often had problems with checks being made out to troops, but now it almost never happens.

ckmcdonald wrote:How many of you out there would like it if CHQ officially set up every wards account so that it allowed the depositing of checks written to the units Scout troop? What problem would it solve for you?

I'd give a thumbs-up for your idea. Our ward has dealt with this numerous times during our annual scout fundraiser activity. It seems there are a few generous non-members in the neighborhood who will gladly donate to the Boy Scouts, but who adamantly refuse to make their checks payable to the Church. The long-time Scoutmaster doesn't want to aggravate the donors or turn down their donations. And he's convinced that checks made payable to the scouts have been accepted by the ward "since before I was born". Bottom line is that it makes the clerk the "bad guy" in trying to adhere to policy. And this clerk hates being the bad guy.

ckmcdonald wrote:How many of you out there would like it if CHQ officially set up every wards account so that it allowed the depositing of checks written to the units Scout troop? What problem would it solve for you?

I would dislike this a great deal. For starters, it would require customizing the depository account to accommodate 2-3 units per ward (Troop, Team, Venturing Crew). Sometimes those unit numbers are the same. More often, they are not. (i.e. Troop 100, Team 6100). Then you have the problem with duplicate unit numbers, and ensuring that only checks made to the correct unit were processed. i.e. Troop 100, chartered by the LDS First Ward in the Alpha BSA Council is not the same as Troop 100, chartered by United Methodist Church, in the Beta Council, or even Troop 100, chartered by the LDS 142nd Ward in the Gamma Council. That would seem to require the elimination of deposit concentration, and a reversion back to actual individual ward accounts. No thank you.

Second, even if this were possible, the resources it would take to design and implement could be spent far better elsewhere. As aebrown said, it's just a matter of education.

86Bengal wrote: It seems there are a few generous non-members in the neighborhood who will gladly donate to the Boy Scouts, but who adamantly refuse to make their checks payable to the Church.

And these nonmember donors are perfectly happy that the check that they specifically made out to the Boy Scouts gets cashed by the Church, and is deposited in a Church account? If they are so opposed to supporting the Church in any way, I find that hard to believe. Besides any questions of legality, it seems to me that the practice of accepting checks made out to one entity and depositing them in the account of another entity is deceptive and thus not something the Church should be involved in.

We are having the same problem 86Bengal is having, and an additional one. We recently started the ever-popular flag posting fundraiser. Our troop has offered the service to members and non-members alike. There have been several occasions a non-member has agreed to sign up for the service but later declined when they were asked to write a check to the Church.

Our other problem is with a non-member boy who has joined our ward's troop. In all aspects it a great situation, except, the boy's parents don't want to write checks to the Church (i.e. Scout Camp fee).

Both the above are not show-stopper problems but they can be pretty annoying when they are happening to you.

aebrown wrote:Besides any questions of legality, it seems to me that the practice of accepting checks made out to one entity and depositing them in the account of another entity is deceptive and thus not something the Church should be involved in.

I fail to see how this would be deceptive. If done, the money would go directly where the author of the check thinks it is going - to the Scout troop (assuming the Financial Clerk is managing the funds properly). What is deceptive is the very problem I am referring to, a check written to the Church that really goes to the Scouting program - that's deceptive.

ckmcdonald wrote:I fail to see how this would be deceptive. If done, the money would go directly where the author of the check thinks it is going - to the Scout troop (assuming the Financial Clerk is managing the funds properly). What is deceptive is the very problem I am referring to, a check written to the Church that really goes to the Scouting program - that's deceptive.

How is a check written to the troop deposited into a troop checking account when no such checking account exists? A check written to the troop is deposited into the church account in all the scenarios discussed by those who have accepted such checks. Having a check writer believe his check is being deposited into a checking account owned by the troop is deceptive since the account is owned by the church. The Scouting program is not the same as a Scout troop checking account.

I think one easy workaround might be to see if people are comfortable writing a check to the Scoutmaster,
who then would cash it and donate it to the church's scout account.

ckmcdonald wrote:I fail to see how this would be deceptive. If done, the money would go directly where the author of the check thinks it is going - to the Scout troop (assuming the Financial Clerk is managing the funds properly). What is deceptive is the very problem I am referring to, a check written to the Church that really goes to the Scouting program - that's deceptive.

The person who wrote the check has access to see how it was endorsed. The endorsement will say that it is being cashed by a Church entity. If the check-writer sees the endorsement by an entity they specifically chose not to give money to (in your scenario), I don't see how they would not feel deceived -- and rightly so.

I think people would have a problem writing the check to the church because they believe
that their money would be used for church (and not scout) related purposes. To ease their
fears you could assure them that scout funds are never used for religious purposes, or you
could accept donations to the troop in-kind (tents, pocketknives, or ropes instead of cash).

I've never been in this situation but if someone did not feel comfortable giving money to the church but wanted to support the scouts and get a tax deduction, I'd recommend that they write a check to BSA and send it to a local area council. Perhaps even holding on to their money until a FOS drive, then they could make it out to BSA and it could be collected by whomever the ward desiganates.

aebrown wrote:The person who wrote the check has access to see how it was endorsed. The endorsement will say that it is being cashed by a Church entity. If the check-writer sees the endorsement by an entity they specifically chose not to give money to (in your scenario), I don't see how they would not feel deceived -- and rightly so.

I completely agree. And yet the scenario I described above happens. How? I suspect that the people take comfort in writing a check to a non-Church payee, and then never discover the reality of who cashed it.

Nowadays nobody gets cashed checks back from the bank. You have to go on-line to look at them or request a photocopy from the bank. And most people are just too lazy or unconcerned to do this unless they become aware of a problem. So, the endorsement goes unnoticed. (With the same complacency, people don't balance their checkbooks regularly anymore. And they decline or throw away their credit card and ATM receipts. Etc....)

We have had similar problems with our flag posting service. The church has sent me warnings about depositing checks written to the troop but the bank has always allowed the deposit. My solution to make everyone happy is this: just have the non-members write their check to "Your Ward name - BSA Troop #". This allows the non-member to see they are giving money to the troop and the church and bank to see the proper name of the ward account. So far no one has complained.