Help with webcast issues

Hello

I have been the stake tech clerk for the past year. When I was called my major responsibility was to implement webcasting to our outlining units. With the help of a great FM director we were able to secure the equipment needed to do a webcast.

My personal experience is with the Cisco CCNA program that I taught at the high school level. I have also taught net + and A+ to high school students. I also have 15 years of teaching electronics. this is my way of saying that I have a fair competency level with technology.

Let me tell you about our setup.

In our stake center we have a business class cable connection speeds are tested at 13mbps down and 13 Mbps up. We are using the stake clerks computer with the webcast software. The video capture card is completely compatible with the system. The clerks PC is hard wired to the buildings network. The clerks pc is a newer dell optiplex with 4 gigs of ram running windows XP. We still have a legacy Cisco firewall.

My outlining units each have cable ISP connections that far exceed the churches recommended bandwidth requirements. Each unit has power line networking in place to provide the data signal to the members laptop. We are looking to hardware these connections in the next year.

Now my issues...

We did our first webcast with an early morning stake priesthood meeting. This was last August. It worked fine with some issues having to do with over modulated audio. The signal was strong we thought we were in a good place.

Fast forward to stake conference last November... It was a total disaster. The signals were poor audio hard to understand. After this I went to work upgrading two of my three units with cable modems from DSL connections My third unit was already equipped with cable. I also upgraded the stake center to a business class cable connection. I didn't shut down the limited wifi network we had in the stake center. So after reading the tech forums I thought the problem was wifi competing for the limited bandwidth.

Fast forward again to last Sundays stake conference. I tested the new improvements with all of the units a week ahead of time and everything checked out fine. I cut off the wifi in all of the buildings With all of the upgrades I was sure that we would have a successful rerun at it. The conections started out fine but there were some major audio issues. The audio was way over-modulated. I did adjust the gain control in the webcast software to its lowest setting. The speakers were hard to understand. We also lost the signal to each unit including a laptop that I was using to monitor things once the connection was reestablished things were better. I had one unit that gave the members the choice of going home.

I'm at a loss...I feel so bad about promising things and not being able to deliver. I feel that I have let my stake presidency down twice. I realize all things have a learning curve
But I will not subject the members of my stake to another fiasco.

Any comments would be apprciated

Can you give more details on how you're connecting the audio? What output on the sound system to what input on the computer?

Yes, the more details you can provide, the more we can help!

Although the following story has nothing to do with your problem, there is a testing suggestion at the end of this post that saved me.

Details:

I had a similar experience two conferences ago with terrible problems of buzzing of the audio at one of the remote buildings that started just 15 minutes before conference started. It was so bad, some people left. In hindsight, my mistake was testing using a test video (to test bandwidth, audio, picture quality, etc.) instead of actual picture and audio from the pulpit.

So several weeks prior to our last conference I set everything up again and was able to reproduce the humming problem. I discovered that it started before the feed was sent out to the other buildings when the ground of the audio mixer touched any metal of the church audio/video/satellite rack. I had a ground loop problem (yuck!). I was really confused because only one of the remote buildings had reported the hum/buzz problem. No complaints were received from the second remote building. However, when I re-checked reception at the remote building (the one which had no complaints), I found the hum/buzz was there in my headphones. The reason the congregation didn't notice it was because the audio quality in that building was so poor (I never attended any meetings there), low frequencies and hum were not being reproduced through the speakers (typical for public address - not sound reinforcement). When I mentioned this to my stake clerk (who attends that building) he confirmed the building had terrible sound quality but everyone assumed nothing could be done about it.

I called the FM group and requested the contractor re-equalize the sound - which they did, and did an excellent job. They also increased the overall gain of the system and even installed a second mixer in the rack which allows control of the telephone audio back-up and broadcast audio gain. I then worked for days trying to fix the ground loop problem at the stake center (replacing unbalanced lines with balanced, isolating and lifting grounds, etc.) to clean it up. I assumed the problem had been worked out.

Just prior to the conference, I met with the stake presidency to go over the general session's needs and extra microphones would be needed for a 31-member special musical number (floor mics) in addition to the choir (choir mics) and flutist (solo mic).

I was determined to make sure everything was right, so during the adult session on Saturday night, I went to each building and watched the session to make sure the sound and picture was perfect. This was very beneficial because I was able to work out every detail during an actual broadcast. I thought everything was good and all testing seemed productive so I felt ready for the next morning.

I'm grateful I heeded inspiration and taped a wireless lapel microphone to the pulpit microphone boom because Sunday morning one hour before conference started, the hum came back (no need for a barber - if you know what I mean). I suppose every light and motor turned on in the building was too much for my attempts to correct the problem.

To make a long story short, the congregation's viewing experience at all buildings was PERFECT! Since the hum only came from the connection made with the building's sound system audio feed (mostly for the pulpit), I was able to use the wireless lapel microphone taped to the pulpit mic instead. All other microphones and organ feed were clean. Comments after the conference were very positive and some members at the building that had the sound re-equalized said it was the best they've ever heard in that building.

Bottom line:
Don't test using a test video - test the real thing. I really benefited from extensive testing and final adjustments during an actual broadcast (Saturday evening adult session) and acting on inspiration to have a back-up podium microphone set up.

RussellHltn wrote:Can you give more details on how you're connecting the audio? What output on the sound system to what input on the computer?

Thank you for your reply. We pick up the audio feed off of the buildings sound system at the satellite rack in the materials center. There is a switch that allows me to select a camera feed, satellite feed and a VCR feed. I have considered adding a gain control where the audio signal enters the computer. I need to add that we are having issues with the buildings sound system loosing the sound in the chapel. I don't believe this should effect the webcast because, i think, we pull the audio feed off of the system before it goes through the amps. Also the audio signal to the rest of the building is properly modulated.

In your experience is it common for a remote site to have to restart the windows media center software?

michaelfish wrote:Yes, the more details you can provide, the more we can help!

Although the following story has nothing to do with your problem, there is a testing suggestion at the end of this post that saved me.

Details:

I had a similar experience two conferences ago with terrible problems of buzzing of the audio at one of the remote buildings that started just 15 minutes before conference started. It was so bad, some people left. In hindsight, my mistake was testing using a test video (to test bandwidth, audio, picture quality, etc.) instead of actual picture and audio from the pulpit.

So several weeks prior to our last conference I set everything up again and was able to reproduce the humming problem. I discovered that it started before the feed was sent out to the other buildings when the ground of the audio mixer touched any metal of the church audio/video/satellite rack. I had a ground loop problem (yuck!). I was really confused because only one of the remote buildings had reported the hum/buzz problem. No complaints were received from the second remote building. However, when I re-checked reception at the remote building (the one which had no complaints), I found the hum/buzz was there in my headphones. The reason the congregation didn't notice it was because the audio quality in that building was so poor (I never attended any meetings there), low frequencies and hum were not being reproduced through the speakers (typical for public address - not sound reinforcement). When I mentioned this to my stake clerk (who attends that building) he confirmed the building had terrible sound quality but everyone assumed nothing could be done about it.

I called the FM group and requested the contractor re-equalize the sound - which they did, and did an excellent job. They also increased the overall gain of the system and even installed a second mixer in the rack which allows control of the telephone audio back-up and broadcast audio gain. I then worked for days trying to fix the ground loop problem at the stake center (replacing unbalanced lines with balanced, isolating and lifting grounds, etc.) to clean it up. I assumed the problem had been worked out.

Just prior to the conference, I met with the stake presidency to go over the general session's needs and extra microphones would be needed for a 31-member special musical number (floor mics) in addition to the choir (choir mics) and flutist (solo mic).

I was determined to make sure everything was right, so during the adult session on Saturday night, I went to each building and watched the session to make sure the sound and picture was perfect. This was very beneficial because I was able to work out every detail during an actual broadcast. I thought everything was good and all testing seemed productive so I felt ready for the next morning.

I'm grateful I heeded inspiration and taped a wireless lapel microphone to the pulpit microphone boom because Sunday morning one hour before conference started, the hum came back (no need for a barber - if you know what I mean). I suppose every light and motor turned on in the building was too much for my attempts to correct the problem.

To make a long story short, the congregation's viewing experience at all buildings was PERFECT! Since the hum only came from the connection made with the building's sound system audio feed (mostly for the pulpit), I was able to use the wireless lapel microphone taped to the pulpit mic instead. All other microphones and organ feed were clean. Comments after the conference were very positive and some members at the building that had the sound re-equalized said it was the best they've ever heard in that building.

Bottom line:
Don't test using a test video - test the real thing. I really benefited from extensive testing and final adjustments during an actual broadcast (Saturday evening adult session) and acting on inspiration to have a back-up podium microphone set up.

This is a good point about the testing. I did the test running the satellite feed from BYU tv. As for a live feed I'm going to be hard pressed to try a live test of an actual meeting. I will have to test with me reading at the pulpit. Thank you for your reply!

bregar wrote:We pick up the audio feed off of the buildings sound system at the satellite rack in the materials center.

The typical chapel sound system is built with professional audio. The line levels can be too hot for consumer line level which is what most computer line-inputs are built for. (I hope you're not using a mic in.) So you may want to add an attenuator to drop the level a bit before feeding it into the computer.

bregar wrote:I need to add that we are having issues with the buildings sound system loosing the sound in the chapel. I don't believe this should effect the webcast because, i think, we pull the audio feed off of the system before it goes through the amps.

That depends on what is going wrong to lose the audio.

Just a quick note, I bought a $30 line-level at Radio Shack, it was fairly easy to implement, you might want to pick up a ground-loop isolater from there as well, I found that my real issue that I purchased the line-level for was a ground-loop problem.

Don't forget about using the Chapel assisted-hearing remote devices, they saved my bacon when the sound at the Satellite system decided to drop 1/2 hour before our stake conference. It is a headphone level out and does nicely with the webcaster unit, I haven't used it with the Software version.

test running the satellite feed from BYU tv

BTW - when testing, I found that KBYU should not be (re)broadcast over the Internet.

I made that mistake once with the Webcast Communicator software and CHQ shut me down (UNAUTHORIZED message on the screen).

Since then I've always used a talk or church music plugged in and played through the Stake center's audio system. Then set it to repeat so I can drive to the other buildings and test their locations.

RussellHltn wrote:The typical chapel sound system is built with professional audio. The line levels can be too hot for consumer line level which is what most computer line-inputs are built for. (I hope you're not using a mic in.) So you may want to add an attenuator to drop the level a bit before feeding it into the computer.



That depends on what is going wrong to lose the audio.

The building sound system is in the hands of our FM group. That type of stuff is beyond my pay grade.

but there were some major audio issues. The audio was way over-modulated

When this happens, I'd start at the source and check to see at which point the audio starts to distort. Play test material through the system at the loudest volume you would think the congregation would hear. Make sure the sound is not distorting through the speakers. Then test the audio at the satellite rack. I use headphones with an adaptor or some really nice Bose computer speakers. Then connect your next device (such as an audio mixer) and test the sound coming out of that device. Continue connecting components until you find at what point the distortion starts.

By using source material played at the loudest volume you think the congregation would hear, you'll be able to test a worst case scenario. Once you've identified which device is causing the distortion, work backwards on a solution. If you need help, let us assist getting it solved.

michaelfish wrote:I made that mistake once with the Webcast Communicator software and CHQ shut me down (UNAUTHORIZED message on the screen).

Shutdown the Webcast or the satellite feed?

Shutdown the Webcast or the satellite feed?

The webcast was disabled. Satellite continued to work.

The software appeard to be working, with the exception of the message on the screen but attempts to remotely connect to the stream failed. Restarting the Webcast software (using the same event ID) resulted in the same message and inability to connect.

In order to start testing again, I had to create a new event ID.

I suspect they monitor new sessions and have the ability to disable the stream if something is broadcast which is not allowed (I realized I was rebroadcasting KBYU, which is in violation of broadcasting rules)

That seems labor intensive. It might be there's something in the signal, something like Macrovision in the VHS days that tipped off the server that you were streaming protected content.

Which raises an issue - could your stream be cut off if a "talk" includes a video segment from a protected source?

I don't think so - an audio analog source (anything plugged into the microphone or line in jack) would not have triggered an alarm.

Interesting thought though considering the advancements in recognition technologies in recent years.

Using a TV station to test A/V provided me with a theoretically good test signal but it came back to haunt me since I was not actually testing the actual picture and sound from the chapel.

michaelfish wrote:I don't think so - an audio analog source (anything plugged into the microphone or line in jack) would not have triggered an alarm.

Were you only using the audio? If you were using the video, then that can survive an analog connection.

Sorry to confuse the issue. The KBYU test was video and audio. I know the vertical interval in the TV signal can pass coded information (ie, closed captions), so that could have been what alerted for an unauthorized broadcast just like you suggested. I just imagined in my mind that there were 'video police' who were watching what I was doing.

michaelfish wrote:BTW - when testing, I found that KBYU should not be (re)broadcast over the Internet.

I made that mistake once with the Webcast Communicator software and CHQ shut me down (UNAUTHORIZED message on the screen).

Since then I've always used a talk or church music plugged in and played through the Stake center's audio system. Then set it to repeat so I can drive to the other buildings and test their locations.

Thanks for the information I won't do that again.

Perhaps your audio issue could be solved by putting a relatively inexpensive audio mixer between your audio source and the webcast computer.

Much of the feedback I have gotten was that certain audio was either 'too hot' or 'not hot enough' - especially when I switch from a speaker to the choir or special musical number. Apparently on the receiving side, there is a pretty narrow window where it is 'just right'. So I'm able to make quicker adjustments using an external audio mixer and use the LED audio level meters on the mixer to keep it in that narrow window of 'just right'.

I agree with sammythesm's recommendation - always a good idea to have a mixer in the mix (ha!) on the broadcast side. We like the Mackie 402-VLZ3. It's listed on the webcast products recommendation page here, under the Audio section. Not terribly expensive, but a very solid little mixer.

While a hardware mixer would indeed be the best route, how hard would it be for the webcast software to have an active audio level control without having to go into the SETTINGS menu? How about right next to the video preview screen where the audio VU bars are visible? A person could then tweak the setting as needed when the choir performs and put it back when the pulpit is used. Just a suggestion.

Mikerowaved wrote:While a hardware mixer would indeed be the best route, how hard would it be for the webcast software to have an active audio level control without having to go into the SETTINGS menu? How about right next to the video preview screen where the audio VU bars are visible? A person could then tweak the setting as needed when the choir performs and put it back when the pulpit is used. Just a suggestion.

I'll take it one further - how about audio "presets" with a smooth transition between them? That way you can hit a button to transition to the "choir" setting and another to go back to "speaker". Maybe even allow a single button to change cameras and audio level at the same time. That would really help with the workload in handing the transition.

bregar wrote:This is a good point about the testing. I did the test running the satellite feed from BYU tv. As for a live feed I'm going to be hard pressed to try a live test of an actual meeting. I will have to test with me reading at the pulpit. Thank you for your reply!

I like to set a TV behind the pulpit and put on a video from the library. That gives me full-motion video and audio to test with.

Mikerowaved wrote:While a hardware mixer would indeed be the best route, how hard would it be for the webcast software to have an active audio level control without having to go into the SETTINGS menu? How about right next to the video preview screen where the audio VU bars are visible? A person could then tweak the setting as needed when the choir performs and put it back when the pulpit is used. Just a suggestion.

+1
That would be really nice to have available.

Aaron Z

JohnShaw wrote:Just a quick note, I bought a $30 line-level at Radio Shack, it was fairly easy to implement, you might want to pick up a ground-loop isolater from there as well, I found that my real issue that I purchased the line-level for was a ground-loop problem.

Any chance you could post the PN for that? One of those would be just the ticket for what I need to do in our building, but I dont see it on their (useless) website.

Aaron Z

4-Channel Stereo Microphone Mixer
Catalog # 32-2056

I don't see it on the website, but RadioShack has carried this thing for years, you might need to drop by and ask.

Here's the Ground Loop Isolator

JohnShaw wrote:4-Channel Stereo Microphone Mixer
Catalog # 32-2056

I don't see it on the website, but RadioShack has carried this thing for years, you might need to drop by and ask.

Found the manual for it. Odds are it may struggle with the hot line level outputs as well.

JohnShaw wrote:4-Channel Stereo Microphone Mixer
Catalog # 32-2056
I don't see it on the website, but RadioShack has carried this thing for years, you might need to drop by and ask.

I (personally) have an ancient one of those. Was hoping for a single channel one volume control.

Thanks

Aaron Z

I am very sorry for the poor experience you had with your recent Webcast event.

Regarding 'over modulated' audio, I think the root of the problem is in two different components and definitions.

First; the building is wired using commercial/professional class equipment in the satellite cabinet. The audio modulator set at no gain (0db), is similar to a consumer grade piece of equipment the signal would be at +12 or +24db gain.

This is how it was explained to me and it makes sense but could also be completely inaccurate.

The other part is the use of the MIC input or Line IN input. If these aren't matched, you could end up with your computer's audio input defined as MIC level and the audio signal is actually Line Level. If you had a decibel meter, it would be pegged.

There are two solutions for this;
1) back off the gain on the Audio Modulator in the Satellite Cabinet
2) purchase a Macke 402 Audio Mixer. Actually these are available in the LDS Store and the FM might buy one for the stake. With a mixer upstream from the laptop, you can attenuate the audio to a more reasonable level.

Good luck in your next broadcast.

one more tip on the webcast. In addition to disconnecting the wifi, I recommend assigning a static IP Address to the laptop or desktop computer that is broadcasting the webcast. Do the same with the laptops that are at the receiving locations. Losing an IP Address lease effectively will be very similar to losing a signal.

MerrillDL wrote:one more tip on the webcast. In addition to disconnecting the wifi, I recommend assigning a static IP Address to the laptop or desktop computer that is broadcasting the webcast. Do the same with the laptops that are at the receiving locations. Losing an IP Address lease effectively will be very similar to losing a signal.

This isn't necessary in my opinion. As long as you have a live IP address, you will keep the IP address. It's not like someone can steal it from under you. It's only an hour after the computer/NIC is shut off that your IP address will be thrown back into the pool for someone else to use. Also, the new 881s have a larger pool of IPs available, so this shouldn't be an issue with those routers.

MerrillDL wrote:There are two solutions for this;
1) back off the gain on the Audio Modulator in the Satellite Cabinet

I don't see how that would help unless the RF signal is over-modulated. Changing the Modulator will not change the line out of the system. It only affects receivers. Any receiver would have a line out with it's own "0VU" reference. If it's a consumer VCR, then it will be a consumer line-level.

MerrillDL wrote:This isn't necessary in my opinion. As long as you have a live IP address, you will keep the IP address. It's not like someone can steal it from under you. It's only an hour after the computer/NIC is shut off that your IP address will be thrown back into the pool for someone else to use. Also, the new 881s have a larger pool of IPs available, so this shouldn't be an issue with those routers.

If a reboot is necessary, the computer may release it's IP back into the pool. I think it's more important to shut down the wireless to prevent the bandwidth from being used up. Once that's done, I would doubt if there would be any risk of pool exhaustion.

Update

We are having issues with the sound system in the stake center. We had zones dropping out and some other issues. After conference I emailed our FM rep and copied the stake presidency. After a strong comment directed at the FM rep by the stake president about how the sound systems was and has been a major issue for the past year or so the FM rep is calling in the sound system contractor to replace most of the equipment in the rack.

The FM rep has also asked me to come in and do a webcast test to our units with the sound system contractor present. I couldnt ask for anymore divine help then this. I will update this post with the solution that is implemented.

Thank you for all of the comments and ideas. It's amazing how much one can feel the spirit here.

bregar wrote:and copied the stake presidency.

That's the "magic key". At least in my experience.

UPDATE

On Wednesday the FM group had a sound system contractor from salt lake fly in to service the building audio system. Once they started checking the system they found it to be extraordinarily messed up. They replaced almost all of the equipment in the audio rack. Items replaced included one of the two amps, digital mixer, upgraded the surge protector to a professional one, the hearing imparied transmitter and many cables and mic jacks.

We did a webcast test with 2 of my 3 remote sites. I also monitered with my laptop and the clerks computer. The second I turned on my laptop I knew my sound issues were solved. The new equipment had made a huge difference. After setting the audio gain at the sat rack we were able to fine tune the levels so both sites had clear sound.

Thanks for all of the replies