amateur radio equipment banned?

FM is telling us that radios and antennas may not be installed in the buildings. Period. Full stop. This is supposedly a new policy that has been issued within the past year or so.

I have seen a policy that nothing may be attached to the steeple, and puncturing the room membrane is a non-starter, but I have not seen anything that bans any and all installations even with SP approval. Can anybody point to anything that definitively states the current policy, one way or the other?

Nope... But our FM says the same thing.... our enthusiasts don't care, they put it up anyway

I don't know why they say it's a "new" policy. I've been told this exact thing for many years. We are not always privy to every policy that FM groups are given, so I would suggest if there's an issue, your SP has the ability to ask for direction, clarification, and/or a possible exemption of whatever policy may exist on the matter using the proper channels he's been given.

FYI, in our area, we make use of temporary "base station" antennas that are owned and maintained by local hams that can be easily brought in and setup as needed.

aclawson wrote:FM is telling us that radios and antennas may not be installed in the buildings. Period. Full stop. This is supposedly a new policy that has been issued within the past year or so.

I have seen a policy that nothing may be attached to the steeple, and puncturing the room membrane is a non-starter, but I have not seen anything that bans any and all installations even with SP approval. Can anybody point to anything that definitively states the current policy, one way or the other?

Many years ago we had an amateur radio setup in the stake workroom. Somewhere along the way - and I can't give any specifics or a date - the equipment, and antenna were all removed. I was told that the policy had changed and that any requirement to have radio communications at the building would be handled by members with portable equipment on an "as needed" basis. So although I haven't seen a policy either, I'm sure there must be something that's giving the FM groups some direction. Anyway, we've complied with the request and things are going quite well. We have about 50 members with the amateur licenses (including myself) and we all have our own equipment - most of it portable. Our monthly nets are working well and we feel that in the event of an emergency we have adequate coverage at all of our buildings.

I was forwarded this message from our local FM. It was from "Meetinghouse Facilities Department" dated 12/6/2011

The following policy statement concerning emergency communication equipment has been issued and will be included in the next revision of the “Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses”. Thank you for your diligent work and careful attention to these matters.

“Wards and stakes should not purchase or accept donated satellite telephone or amateur radio equipment for use in an emergency or for installation in a meetinghouse. Leaders are encouraged to identify individuals who may already have their own equipment to assist with specific ward and stake communication needs. No permanent installation of equipment, including antennas, is to be made in any Church meetinghouse. Exceptions must be approved by the Meetinghouse Standard Plans Committee.”

So, yes, it does appear to be new, comprehensive, real policy.

sammythesm wrote:I was forwarded this message from our local FM. It was from "Meetinghouse Facilities Department" dated 12/6/2011

So, yes, it does appear to be new, comprehensive, real policy.

The previous version of Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses (approved in 2009) had similar wording, but it was not as strong:

Wards and stakes should not purchase or accept donated satellite telephone or amateur radio equipment for use in an emergency or for installation in a meetinghouse. Leaders are encouraged to identify individuals who may already have their own equipment to assist with specific ward and stake communication needs.

That's the entire paragraph in the current edition (and I believe it was the same in the edition before that); apparently there were enough units that tried to get around it that the MFD decided they had to add those two additional sentences (starting with "No permanent installation...") so there would be no wiggle room.

I just found the same thing, found here (providentliving.org) and here (FM guidelines, page 3 - this version does not mention the standard plans committee).

The part about the radios themselves is understandable - radios are expensive, subject to loss/theft/damage, might not be properly maintained and there is a risk that non-licensed persons might think "oh, that doesn't look too hard" and do things they oughtn't. The antennas, however, are a different matter and I wish they would reconsider.

1. A permanently mounted antenna can have better performance than a portable one. This has to be one of the first considerations. A properly mounted and tuned fixed antenna can be placed higher up than portable ones which is an important variable in regional simplex operations.

2. A permanently mounted antenna means less setup time and establishing communications more quickly.

3. A PMA provides bus insurance - if the only person who has a portable antenna gets hit by a bus just before an emergency (or in the middle of the emergency) then the ward/stake is out of luck.

4. A PMA is safer for the communications team. Standing around outside a building with hundreds to thousands of dollars of expensive-looking antennas during a week/month long emergency is going to attract unwanted attention. It is safer by far if they could be inside the building. As an added bonus it will probably be warmer and drier inside than out, and you won't have to prop open doors/windows to feed antenna cables through (leaving opening for temperature to move and bugs to get in.

5. A PMA means there is a pre-set, designated location for the radio operators that can't be usurped at the last moment by somebody who, for no particular reason, wants their space. This makes planning and implementation easier and is one less decision that needs to be made.

6. PMAs can easily be concealed - you can get an HF, VHF and UHF antenna inside a flagpole, completely invisible to the naked eye. Run some line to a designated radio spot inside the building and leave the antenna connectors there so people can bring in their radios and test or respond with ease. Ditto with attic mounts, gutter mounts or a crank tower.

7. In an emergency with the chaos going around there is a risk that somebody in their rush to get on the air might be hurt as they climb and deploy. Less likely in rural areas where you have limitless options, more likely in urban areas where space is at a premium and surrounding buildings/interference require you to climb to get any sort of acceptable rx/tx.

8. In the above-mentioned urban areas, a PMA lets you design and deploy the optimal antenna solution for your specific location.

I can agree with a lot of your points, in fact many years ago I helped spearhead a project to get permanent amateur radio antennas mounted on countless school buildings throughout the greater San Jose area. However, in clearly defined policies such as this one, this forum is not the place to try and second guess the brethren as to their line of reasoning. If your SP wants to take up the matter, he certainly can.

Are you (or anybody else) familiar with this "Meetinghouse Standard Plans Committee"? I've never heard of them - how do variance requests get submitted to them and who does it? I think this is important enough to merit an effort, especially since the top leadership are clearly aware of the value of amateur radio (ever see the antennas on top of the COB? The church also sends people with radio gear into disaster zones before the dust settles to install emergency communication equipment).

aebrown wrote:The previous version of Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses (approved in 2009) had similar wording, but it was not as strong:

Interesting. I know of at least two stakes that have bought HTs for use in emergency communications. Since there's no impact on the meetinghouse, it would be easy to miss that prohibition on buying equipment when looking for guidance.

aclawson wrote:Are you (or anybody else) familiar with this "Meetinghouse Standard Plans Committee"? I've never heard of them - how do variance requests get submitted to them and who does it? I think this is important enough to merit an effort, especially since the top leadership are clearly aware of the value of amateur radio (ever see the antennas on top of the COB? The church also sends people with radio gear into disaster zones before the dust settles to install emergency communication equipment).

To answer your second question, your stake president is the only one with a channel to have any chance at a variance. Is he on board with your well-written list of advantages of a PMA? If not, is he willing to listen to you?

aclawson wrote:5. A PMA means there is a pre-set, designated location for the radio operators that can't be usurped at the last moment by somebody who, for no particular reason, wants their space. This makes planning and implementation easier and is one less decision that needs to be made.

This one might be doable via power rather than antennas; find some safe spot for a power supply and battery bank all fitted out with PowerPole connectors, and you've got something big and nearly impossible to move, and that you need to be within a few feet of with the radios. There are enough other uses for a robust 12VDC source that you could even come up with a good excuse for having it all there that doesn't involve radio.

Another solution is getting together with the local radio clubs (which you should be doing anyway) and working together to get some radio trailers and/or trucks set up. With a crank-up mast, solar panels and battery bank on a trailer, and everything designed for quick connection, our local club can have a fully tricked out command post in the middle of a cow pasture in minutes. A shore power connection on the building and easy access to bathrooms can make the meetinghouse a really popular place to set the trailer up when the nature of an emergency or SET doesn't dictate some other location.

The second idea, of getting together with a local radio club to make advance arrangements for a trailer or truck sounds like an idea with many advantages.

The first idea, a large battery bank, sounds like it could be risky if the FM group has concerns about fire safety or chemical spills.

As a moderator, I believe the suggestion for a battery bank does not cross the line, but I see potential that this discussion could shift toward ways to circumvent Church policies. Let us make sure we keep the discussion out of the area that would violate the Code of Conduct.

rmrichesjr wrote:The second idea, of getting together with a local radio club to make advance arrangements for a trailer or truck sounds like an idea with many advantages.

One of the big complaints from the local ham club is that they helped out with a "ham-cram" (one day class and tech test) at a nearby ward, and none of the 20 or so new hams from that have ever been heard on the area emcomm nets. Not sure if they're checking in on the stake net, but they would do themselves and the church a big favor with more public service involvement and the practice that comes from that.

The first idea, a large battery bank, sounds like it could be risky if the FM group has concerns about fire safety or chemical spills.

It would absolutely need to be done to code, and to common safety standards that are used mostly for solar/wind power systems, with proper venting and fire protection. I'm not sure what that would cost off the top of my head, but if anybody knows a member who does professional solar or wind power installations, they'd be able to estimate it pretty easily.

rmrichesjr wrote:The first idea, a large battery bank, sounds like it could be risky if the FM group has concerns about fire safety or chemical spills.

Or any gasses created during charging.

aebrown wrote:

sammythesm wrote:I was forwarded this message from our local FM. It was from "Meetinghouse Facilities Department" dated 12/6/2011

So, yes, it does appear to be new, comprehensive, real policy.

The previous version of Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses (approved in 2009) had similar wording, but it was not as strong:

Wards and stakes should not purchase or accept donated satellite telephone or amateur radio equipment for use in an emergency or for installation in a meetinghouse. Leaders are encouraged to identify individuals who may already have their own equipment to assist with specific ward and stake communication needs.

That's the entire paragraph in the current edition (and I believe it was the same in the edition before that); apparently there were enough units that tried to get around it that the MFD decided they had to add those two additional sentences (starting with "No permanent installation...") so there would be no wiggle room.

Ever Notice Bishops Storehouses contain Sat Phones and I've seen a few with Radials for Amatuer Use.... When Deployed into Diasasters, Before the dust settles, Radio Communication is up and Ready. Leadership MUST see the advantages to Amatuer Radio IMHO.....

poppytim wrote:Ever Notice Bishops Storehouses contain Sat Phones and I've seen a few with Radials for Amatuer Use.... When Deployed into Diasasters, Before the dust settles, Radio Communication is up and Ready. Leadership MUST see the advantages to Amatuer Radio IMHO.....

Trust me, they are well aware of the advantages of amateur radio for emergencies, but please understand that Bishops' Storehouses are not the same as meetinghouses. For one, they are far more secure with at least an order of magnitude less keys floating around than a typical meetinghouse. Yes, in some cases radio and/or satellite gear is allowed to be purchased and installed in storehouses. I've been in a storehouse that had a rotatable HF beam on a tower. For ward buildings and stake centers it's not very hard to bring in amateur radio gear and setup a portable antenna or two as the need arises.

My Stake has a weekly 2m simplex amateur radio net that meets at 5 pm for a few minutes. We have no church-owned radio equipment or permanent antenna installations on the church buildings. We rely on equipment and antennas owned by individuals. In my case, I use a mag mount antenna mounted on a metal plate and placed in the foyer of the building. A drycell battery provides power to my equipment, and I run 10 watts. Because the Stake boundaries in Utah are small, usually about 2 miles between buildings, indoor antennas and a 5 watt HT are sufficient to establish communications between the Stake meeting house and ward buildings. Although my experience with 2m simplex in New England is that reliable communications within a circle of about 10 miles is possible.

We seriously looked at placing an antenna within a building attic but discovered that the florescent lighting fixtures were horrific emitters of RF noise, HF to VHF. The net moved to homes with a temporary VHF antenna available for external use at the building. 73.

I recall that the Church was called down by the FCC years ago for purchasing equipment for the MARS systems going at the time. They were told that they were, in essence, operating a private network which requires an FCC license so they shut down MARS. The Church and the FCC May feel that putting radios permanently on the property, even owned by another gives the appearance of the Church again running their own private radio communications since they would have a pecuniary interest by the sheer fact that value was used in the building or property to maintain the equipment, as such I imagine they felt under the circumstances to show positive respect beyond any potential embarrassing legal entanglements which would also involve the operators of the equipment. As operators we don’t want to appear that we are operating for the gain of what might be considered by some juries to be a de facto employer who gave you a calling to operate it for their personal gain which could be argued as the lions portion of the work there would be strictly for the church.
As private mobile units we train to operate under sucky conditions for emergencies and can respond to other types of emergencies not involving the church. Guys in urban areas need to have a field day and figure out how they are going to tackle the obstacle of buildings nearby. These buildings mights even offer permanent placement of a antenna on their roof top. My 2 meter can act as a repeater so boom, you just Set up a great position for a repeater on a jpole or buddistick.
Field days are are great opportunity we need to seriously participate in or when the ploblems hit we won’t have an idea how to flex to the ever changing circumstances. As a group. Repeaters go down, who has the equipment to improvise one?

I don't know the particulars of the church vs the FCC back when Mara was flourishing, but during an emergency, I know the radios won't be used for normal church operations, rather they will assist with the health and welfare of the community surrounding them.

As far as around here, there are cities, hospitals, clinics, even morgues that have purchased ham equipment and made a place for it AND the antennas in and on their places of business. Many of them (if not most) are not licensed to operate the radios, instead, they have made arrangements for local ARES operators to come in and operate them for drills and/or real emergencies where normal communications are disrupted or overloaded. Again, I see no conflict of interest, but rather a safety net to help the needs of the general public should normal communications fail.

Some information about what happened can be found here. It makes for interesting reading considering that the hospitals in my area have a "network" including equipment permanently installed and quite a few of the members are employees.