Tech Forum Archive

Bandwidth Requirements - real world

25 postsstarted by rogerscr 5,071 viewsoriginal topic

rogerscr
New Member
#1
I am looking to do my first webcast in April. Our stake is not large geographically so we have not needed it but the local Temple wants to do a fireside for all the workers. We are going to try to get a Webcast Communicator from a neighboring Stake but I may just setup the software on the Stake Clerk computer.

I am a bit confused as to bandwidth requirements. As far as upload goes, some pages list 400-600Kbps for the speed while others say 400-1400Kbps. Which is it? Is the 1400 only for HD cameras feeding the computer with HDMI cables? The number of receivers doesn't multiply the bandwidth required at the upload site correct?

The other question is about testing the receiving ends before the fireside, the test feeds @ http://stream.lds.org/webcast and http://stream.lds.org/webcast2 both seem to be the same bandwidth, am I correct? They both seem to be running around 300Kbps, is this correct? Since the webcast is set to servers are in SLC and then routed to the sites the test connection should function the same as a live feed if our upload is good. Is there any need for the techs at these other sites to do anything other than use the test feeds?

Thanks for this great resource and your feedback:)
harddrive
Senior Member
#2
rogerscr wrote:I am looking to do my first webcast in April. Our stake is not large geographically so we have not needed it but the local Temple wants to do a fireside for all the workers. We are going to try to get a Webcast Communicator from a neighboring Stake but I may just setup the software on the Stake Clerk computer.

I am a bit confused as to bandwidth requirements. As far as upload goes, some pages list 400-600Kbps for the speed while others say 400-1400Kbps. Which is it? Is the 1400 only for HD cameras feeding the computer with HDMI cables? The number of receivers doesn't multiply the bandwidth required at the upload site correct?

The other question is about testing the receiving ends before the fireside, the test feeds @ http://stream.lds.org/webcast and http://stream.lds.org/webcast2 both seem to be the same bandwidth, am I correct? They both seem to be running around 300Kbps, is this correct? Since the webcast is set to servers are in SLC and then routed to the sites the test connection should function the same as a live feed if our upload is good. Is there any need for the techs at these other sites to do anything other than use the test feeds?

Thanks for this great resource and your feedback:)
First of all, to make sure that I'm clear on this. You want to do the webcasting from your stake center or do you just want to receive it?

If it is the first then the upload speed at the location needs to be high, because you don't want to run a stream that is "filling" the bandwidth. For instance, you don't want to push 600 KBits/sec when you only have 782 Kbits/sec up. Now the higher the resolution the higher the bandwidth that will be needed. I haven't done one in a while myself, but you also want to know what the lowest download bandwidth that you have and use that as your maximum speed on the webcast software.

On the receiving end, you don't need to worry about the upload speed because it is only receiving the broadcast.

One other thing to keep in mind is the fact that only stake conference is authorized to be broadcast from the chapel of a meeting house. If this fireside is to be held in a meeting house, it will need to be done in another room. This is in the handbook of the church.

Hope this helps.
Mikerowaved
Community Moderators
#3
rogerscr wrote:The number of receivers doesn't multiply the bandwidth required at the upload site correct?
This is correct. The A/V stream is uploaded at the source to church servers, from there it can be downloaded by several receivers at once without impacting the upload bandwidth.
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jdlessley
Community Moderators
#4
harddrive wrote:One other thing to keep in mind is the fact that only stake conference is authorized to be broadcast from the chapel of a meeting house. If this fireside is to be held in a meeting house, it will need to be done in another room. This is in the handbook of the church.
Can you give the specific reference? There is a policy on photography and video recording in chapels (Handbook 1, Stake Presidents and Bishops) that does not apply to streaming events, such as stake conference, firesides, and training meetings. The caveat is that the streamed events must not be recorded.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
harddrive
Senior Member
#5
jdlessley wrote:Can you give the specific reference? There is a policy on photography and video recording in chapels (Handbook 1, Stake Presidents and Bishops) that does not apply to streaming events, such as stake conference, firesides, and training meetings. The caveat is that the streamed events must not be recorded.

I will give you the reference that I'm talking about, but won't quote it here. The reference comes from Handbook 2 section 21.2.10.

Hope this helps
Terry
rbeede
Member
#6
Looks like the wiki page referenced (https://tech.lds.org/wiki/Meetinghouse_ ... #Recording) needs updated since the new handbook supersedes the 2009 letter from the Office of the Presiding Bishopric.

I tried doing a search for any policy documents since the Handbook came out in 2010, but the tool at https://www.lds.org/letters/document/in ... &clang=eng seems broken. It just always returns No docuemnts were found.
Biggles
Senior Member
#7
rbeede wrote:I tried doing a search for any policy documents since the Handbook came out in 2010, but the tool at https://www.lds.org/letters/document/in ... &clang=eng seems broken. It just always returns No docuemnts were found.

The link works OK for me.

The 'No documents found' message usually happens, if you don't have the right calling. As an Assistant Ward Clerk, no access. As a Ward Clerk I have access.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#8
harddrive wrote:I will give you the reference that I'm talking about, but won't quote it here. The reference comes from Handbook 2 section 21.2.10.

21.2.10:
Photographs, Video Recordings, and Broadcasts in Chapels

Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted. Meetings and other events that are held in the chapel may not be broadcast over the Internet or by any other means (see 18.3.1 for an exception).
Section 18.3.1 is titled "Stake Conference"
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jdlessley
Community Moderators
#9
harddrive wrote: The reference comes from Handbook 2 section 21.2.10.
Thanks for the reference to 21.2.10 and the exception granted in 18.3.1 for the purpose of updating the wiki. The wiki article for webcasting gives the impression there is an exception for stake conference and possibly even firesides and training meetings. I would go with the Handbook over any impression the wiki article might give unless the Church employees who authored the wiki article can provide any document that provides more authoritative and more recent guidance.

Perhaps the wiki article only needs to be rewritten to makes sure the policy is understood and complies with the Handbook.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#10
jdlessley wrote:Perhaps the wiki article only needs to be rewritten to makes sure the policy is understood and complies with the Handbook.
Have you tried contributing to the Wiki? No time like the present. ;)
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jdlessley
Community Moderators
#11
RussellHltn wrote:Have you tried contributing to the Wiki? No time like the present. ;)
Yes, I have and do when I know the information is correct. For something like what is discussed in this thread concerning policy I will not. In this case I am not even certain there is not an exemption to the Handbook reference for webcasts.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
aebrown
Community Administrator
#12
jdlessley wrote:Yes, I have and do when I know the information is correct. For something like what is discussed in this thread concerning policy I will not. In this case I am not even certain there is not an exemption to the Handbook reference for webcasts.
I agree that we should be careful about updating the wiki for this topic without further communication. The section about the exception for streamed content was indeed put in there by a Church employee. Of course, employees are not perfect, so that doesn't mean that it is absolutely reliable, but we're talking about a nuance here. After all, the Handbook says to "see 18.3.1 for an exception" -- it doesn't say "see 18.3.1 for the one and only possible exception".
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
michaelfish
Member
#13
Please clarify handbook 2 21.2.10. "...making video recordings in chapels are not permitted (PERIOD?) ...(see 18.3.1 for an exception)..."

My question is: if there is no Presiding Area or General Authority (i.e. the Stake President is the presiding authority), and the Stake President wants Stake Conference recorded (for a couple of homebound members), should I instruct him that the handbook prohibits making video recordings in chapels, or is stake conference an exception to recording in chapels?
aebrown
Community Administrator
#14
michaelfish wrote:Please clarify handbook 2 21.2.10. "...making video recordings in chapels are not permitted (PERIOD?) ...(see 18.3.1 for an exception)..."

My question is: if there is no Presiding Area or General Authority (i.e. the Stake President is the presiding authority), and the Stake President wants Stake Conference recorded (for a couple of homebound members), should I instruct him that the handbook prohibits making video recordings in chapels, or is stake conference an exception to recording in chapels?
As I read it, the Handbook makes an absolute statement that no video recordings are permitted ("Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted.") The next sentence talks about broadcasts -- not recordings -- and this general prohibition on broadcasts of events held in the chapel does allow for an exception (stake conference as documented in 18.3.1).

That said, the stake president has the keys to interpret the handbook in his stake, and he also has access to area leaders who can clarify policy if he'd like to ask them.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
jdlessley
Community Moderators
#15
michaelfish wrote:My question is: if there is no Presiding Area or General Authority (i.e. the Stake President is the presiding authority), and the Stake President wants Stake Conference recorded (for a couple of homebound members), should I instruct him that the handbook prohibits making video recordings in chapels, or is stake conference an exception to recording in chapels?
This is an area we have discussed on the forums before. It appears that some posters to the forums believe that there is no exception to recording in the chapel. I am one of those by my reading of the Handbook. However proper authority can grant case by case exceptions. I do not believe the stake president has the authority to grant the exception. He should seek council from the area authorities for guidance on this matter.

The discussion in this thread has been around webcasting. Recording is a separate issue. Handbook 2, 21.2.10 addresses, in addition to photographs and recordings in the chapel, broadcasting events in the chapel over the internet. It then gives the citation for an exception for stake conference. That exception is only for broadcasting and not for recording.
JD Lessley
Have you tried finding your answer on the ChurchofJesusChrist.org Help Center or Tech Wiki?
michaelfish
Member
#16
Thanks for clarifying!
russellhltn
Community Administrator
#17
michaelfish wrote:My question is: if there is no Presiding Area or General Authority (i.e. the Stake President is the presiding authority), and the Stake President wants Stake Conference recorded (for a couple of homebound members), should I instruct him that the handbook prohibits making video recordings in chapels, or is stake conference an exception to recording in chapels?

I'll run with a slightly different take on this. If you're being asked to do something that appears to conflict with the handbook, I do think it's good to tactfully point that out. As a technical guy, you're probably more familiar with the sections that impact tech then someone who has a broad responsibility. Hopefully, that will cause the problem to be resolved to your satisfaction.
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pete.arnett
Member
#18

Meetinghouse Webcast Authorization

Authorization:
  • General Authorities must provide authorization before you can webcast and/or record Stake Conferences or other meetings that are being presided over by General Authorities
  • Stake Presidents must provide authorization before you can webcast and/or record Stake Conferences or other meetings within their stake boundary
  • A webcast is an extension of the originating meeting and all rules apply at remote sites
Thanks,
:cool:Your Fellow Member,
Pete Arnett
Sunny South Florida, USA
aebrown
Community Administrator
#19
pete.arnett wrote:
  • General Authorities must provide authorization before you can webcast and/or record Stake Conferences or other meetings that are being presided over by General Authorities
  • Stake Presidents must provide authorization before you can webcast and/or record Stake Conferences or other meetings within their stake boundary
  • A webcast is an extension of the originating meeting and all rules apply at remote sites

What is your source for these statements? They differ somewhat from the Handbook, so a source would be helpful.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
rogerscr
New Member
#20
Thanks for the policy reminder, if this is broadcast it will be under the direction of our Temple Presidency. If it comes up I will mention it to them, I am sure they have a direct line to the Area Presidency if needed. Many of our Temple Workers travel 5+ hrs each way and the presidency would like to avoid such a drive just for a fireside.

We will be broadcasting from the stake center out to the outlying stake centers in the temple region. I will be testing the stake center upload speeds tomorrow.

My main confusion was that the original Meetinghouse Webcast Communicator documentation lists the upload speed used and the recommended speed based on a 2x multiplier. It lists 200, 250 and 300 Kbps upload speeds for Good, Better and Best. This means you need 400, 500 or 600 Kbps upload capacity. Yet there is this 750 Kbps number on the same document without note and other documents show a 1400 Kbps speed for Best quality.

I currently plan to use a standard DV camera tapping into the composite video output (yellow jack) so we are talking basic SD video input for the system.

What speed do I really need to use in order to get good video of someone standing at the podium? Do I need more than 600 Kbps? Most ISPs around here max out upload at 769 Kbps or 840 Kbps.


As far as the receiving end I am assuming the 1.5x multiplier works just fine, download is always cheaper than upload.
pete.arnett
Member
#21
It is a summary based on information from various church leaders, Area Seventies, and Stake Presidents for Stake Technology Specialist (STS) in the NASE area, to be sure that approval was received before doing a webcast (etc.)
Thanks,
:cool:Your Fellow Member,
Pete Arnett
Sunny South Florida, USA
Mikerowaved
Community Moderators
#22
rogerscr wrote:My main confusion was that the original Meetinghouse Webcast Communicator documentation lists the upload speed used and the recommended speed based on a 2x multiplier. It lists 200, 250 and 300 Kbps upload speeds for Good, Better and Best. This means you need 400, 500 or 600 Kbps upload capacity. Yet there is this 750 Kbps number on the same document without note and other documents show a 1400 Kbps speed for Best quality.
The Webcast Communicator "box" was designed 3+ years ago using version 1.0 of the Meetinghouse Webcast software. The above numbers you quoted were based on that. The "better than best" number of 750K is available if you use their custom menu.
rogerscr wrote:I currently plan to use a standard DV camera tapping into the composite video output (yellow jack) so we are talking basic SD video input for the system.

What speed do I really need to use in order to get good video of someone standing at the podium? Do I need more than 600 Kbps? Most ISPs around here max out upload at 769 Kbps or 840 Kbps.
I recommend using the highest quality your bandwidth will "comfortably" allow at all of your sites. You can test them using the following link...

http://speedtest.lds.org/speed.html

If you will be using the Meetinghouse Webcast software (currently at version 3.0.1) you will have the following "quality" settings available to you. These have the recommended "2x up" and "1.5x down" multipliers already built-in, so to find the actual streaming bandwidth, divide the Upload number by 2.

Code: 

Quality    Upload   Download
--------   ------   --------
Minimum     284k      213k
Low         448k      336k
Med         896k      672k
High        1.7M      1.3M
HD          3.6M      2.7M
I found that lowering the quality below Med was not as pleasant to watch on a projected image, but you can only do what your bandwidth will allow. Having a slightly pixelated image is FAR better than one that starts, stops, resets, etc. during the broadcast because of pushing your available bandwidth too hard.
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rogerscr
New Member
#23
Well I did our speed test and it is just over 700 Kbps as expected. So I should be able to run about 300 Kbps (Best on Communicator and ?? on the Software). Will this be pretty good quality?
Mikerowaved
Community Moderators
#24
I think the Webcast Communicator box and Meetinghouse Webcast software use different versions of the encoder, hence the slightly different bandwidth requirements. Having played with both, I would recommend the Webcast Communicator (if you can borrow one) as the simplest solution to setup and get running. It appears the upload requirements are a better match for your situation as well. The only problem I had with the one I used was it would lockup after 30-40 mins of continuous uploading (at the 750kbps rate). Removing the lid while running completely solved the apparent overheating problem. Something to watch out for.

Whatever solution you use, be sure and get it all working well ahead of time to thoroughly test it out. In your situation I think it would be appropriate to have whoever is conducting politely ask folks to turn off any wireless devices they might have, so as to not compete with your limited bandwidth.
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Aczlan
Member
#25
jdlessley wrote:Thanks for the reference to 21.2.10 and the exception granted in 18.3.1 for the purpose of updating the wiki. The wiki article for webcasting gives the impression there is an exception for stake conference and possibly even firesides and training meetings. I would go with the Handbook over any impression the wiki article might give unless the Church employees who authored the wiki article can provide any document that provides more authoritative and more recent guidance.
Perhaps the wiki article only needs to be rewritten to makes sure the policy is understood and complies with the Handbook.
I agree that it should be updated. I have run webcasts (under the direction of the the Stake Presidency and the Area Seventy presiding over or coordinating the meeting) for Stake and Area trainings, conferences, firesides and other meetings.
Is it "kosher" per the various (conflicting) references? I dont know for certain, but I do know that I was instructed by the Priesthood leaders who were in charge of the meeting (who hold the keys to interpret the rules for their stewardship) to run the Webcasts and the Webcasts have been a great blessing for those who were able to watch remotely rather than drive 2-5 hours (when the weather is good) to attend Stake Conference, a training meeting, a fireside, or some other event. The understanding that I have (and that the leadership here has) is that the spirit of the law mirrors what pete.arnett posted.
One example was last winter when the interstate was shut down due to snow on the evening we had several General Authorities speaking at a regional YSA fireside. We ran a webcast which allowed those who were unable to attend in person (at least 6 sites that I know of) to receive the message and feel of the spirit present.

Aaron Z