The Calendar Apparently has allowed a Scheduling Conflict.

The help page says that "The calendar will not allow two events to be scheduled at the same time in the same location."

I say that the calender DID allow two events to be scheduled at the same time in the same location. Three wards meet at my building the "North Shores, Roseville, Warren" building. There are, right now, two events (baptismal services) that are scheduled for the same room, the Baptismal Font, at overlapping times. One event is from 2:45 - 4:15 pm on Jan 14 and the other is at 3 - 6 pm on Jan 14. One service was scheduled by a Roseville ward member and the other was scheduled by me on behalf of a North Shores Ward member.

This has produces a very difficult situation. It would have been MUCH simpler if the tool prevented the second event from being scheduled at all.

Any helpful feedback would be greatly appreciated.

This conversation started on the wiki, so I'll post my response here so that the conversation is in one place.

I have never seen this happen, and I've seen a lot of scheduling in my stake. I've seen multiple posts on the LDSTech forum that claim that a scheduling conflict occurred, but in every case that I can recall, it has turned out that there was a misunderstanding as to how the system worked, or a configuration error. That's not to say that a bug in the system is impossible, but I've never seen it.

The most common cause of misunderstanding is confusion between events and reservations. For example, one person schedules an actual event, and then the building scheduler creates a reservation on top of the event, expecting a conflict -- but by design this is not a conflict. The reverse also happens; a building scheduler creates a reservation, and then another building scheduler (or a calendar editor for the ward or stake the reservation is assigned to) creates an event on top of the reservation. Again, that is not a conflict, even though some people mistakenly think it is.

To which Scote responded:

Thanks for your help Aebrown. Neither event is a reservation. I am the building scheduler and I set up all reservation times for the three wards.

We are getting the same thing in our stake. It IS IN FACT allowing people to schedule over the top of other events in the same location and rooms.

printbr wrote:We are getting the same thing in our stake. It IS IN FACT allowing people to schedule over the top of other events in the same location and rooms.

One configuration problem that has led to this problem is having multiple locations with the same name. It's possible to have one location assigned to one or more wards, and a separate location with the same name assigned to different wards. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it is worth checking out.

Also, there was a particular bug that did allow conflicting events for building schedulers who scheduled events on top of reservations; I thought it was fixed, but I just tested it again and it is not. Does the detailed description I linked to seem to fit your situation?

Could you please supply some details to help us understand:

• What reservations exist at that time (and what location/rooms are reserved)?
• What events exist at that time (and what location/rooms are booked by those events)?
• The role(s) of the people involved in creating these reservations and events.

Yes that was exactly it.


Thanks.

printbr wrote:Yes that was exactly it.

I mentioned two possible explanations in my post: two separate locations with the same name, and the bug that involves multiple events on top of a reservation. Just so I understand what was happening, which one are you saying was affecting your stake?

The bug involing multiple events on top of a reservation.

However here is another example of the problem.

1. the building scheduler under RESERVATIONS blocked out a time on wednesday every week. using the BLOCKED functuion rather than choosing a patricular ward.

2. An editor for one of the ward calendars (and I also tested it with a stake calendar) can schedule an event and reserve rooms at that same time.

So it appears that the BLOCKED function does not block anyone from scheduleing and reserving rooms.

printbr wrote:So it appears that the BLOCKED function does not block anyone from scheduleing and reserving rooms.

The BLOCKED function does not prevent anyone who also happens to have Building Scheduler rights from placing an event on the room. That's one of the reasons we strongly advise against using Reservations as an event.

I am the Stake CLerk who added additional rooms at the Ward's request (to the reservation list). I originally thought they had different names for the same rooms. BUt, I"m looking at the reservations for the building now, by trying to book an all day event as a test, and I'm getting the red bar showing ALL of the day's events. There clearly two baptisms scheduled for times that overlap. I can send a screen shot to anybody that wants to see it. email me: gwert@prodigy.net

gwert wrote:I can send a screen shot to anybody that wants to see it. email me: gwert@prodigy.net

You can attach a screen shot to your post.

RussellHltn wrote:You can attach a screen shot to your post.

Not a good idea -- it's got lots of personal information.

He sent me the screen shot privately. I'll respond shortly with what I saw.

scote wrote:I say that the calender DID allow two events to be scheduled at the same time in the same location. Three wards meet at my building the "North Shores, Roseville, Warren" building. There are, right now, two events (baptismal services) that are scheduled for the same room, the Baptismal Font, at overlapping times. One event is from 2:45 - 4:15 pm on Jan 14 and the other is at 3 - 6 pm on Jan 14. One service was scheduled by a Roseville ward member and the other was scheduled by me on behalf of a North Shores Ward member.

Well, the screen shot your stake clerk sent me doesn't show quite as much as I had hoped, since it doesn't show the locations for anything but the test event you are in the process of trying to create. But based on what you said, and what I see in the screen shot, here's what it looks like happened:

• The person in the Roseville Ward created an event from 2:45 - 4:15pm on Jan 14. You say that it included the baptismal font; I can't see that on the screen shot, but it is reasonable. I certainly can verify that I see a named event for that ward at that time on that date in the potential conflict list on the screen shot.
• Then you created a reservation from 3:00-6:00pm on Jan 14. Again, I'll trust that you included the baptismal font. The reservations show up on the potential conflict list on the screen shot with a ward name (but no event name). That makes me think that it is a reservation and not an event.
• Then the stake clerk tried to create a test event, reserving the whole building for that day. That of course conflicted with the first event, which had actually booked the baptismal font, and so he could not save it. Multiple reservations and events showed up in the potential conflict list, including the two above.

From what I can tell, everything is working perfectly -- but not how you intended. The misunderstanding seems to be in the second bullet point above. You created a reservation in an attempt to book the baptismal font for the Warren Ward. But the Roseville Ward had an event at an overlapping time that actually booked the baptismal font. Had you instead chosen to create an event for the Warren Ward, you would have seen a hard conflict reported and you would have been unable to save.

I may not have the sequence of events entirely correct, but I think this is indeed what happened. The bottom line is that it is never a good practice to use a reservation in an attempt to book a location; always use an event to do so.

If I am making any incorrect assumptions, please help us understand which items are events, and which are reservations, who scheduled each (not by name, but by role), and the sequence in which these items were created.

aebrown wrote:One configuration problem that has led to this problem is having multiple locations with the same name. It's possible to have one location assigned to one or more wards, and a separate location with the same name assigned to different wards. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it is worth checking out.

Also, there was a particular bug that did allow conflicting events for building schedulers who scheduled events on top of reservations; I thought it was fixed, but I just tested it again and it is not. Does the detailed description I linked to seem to fit your situation?

Could you please supply some details to help us understand:

• What reservations exist at that time (and what location/rooms are reserved)?
• What events exist at that time (and what location/rooms are booked by those events)?
• The role(s) of the people involved in creating these reservations and events.

I don't think we have multiple locations with the same name.

The particular bug that did allow conflicting events for building schedulers who scheduled events on top of reservations is a possibility. There is an all day reservation for the day and both events were posted by schedulers. However, I booked the first one and do not know if the 'soft confict' message slowed down the second scheduler.

Here is something else to think about: A member of my ward have some admin role (see role paragraphs below) by record only (she has not been trained), and prefers to use Spanish on lds.org. It's possible, that this is why I see Spanish when I book an event and select rooms for the event. It may be the lds.org allows the double booking because it sees 'Fila Bautismal' and 'Baptismal Font' as two different rooms.

Aebrown, you write the phrase 'at that time' twice in your bullets quoted here, but you do not indicate what time you are asking about. I will assume you mean at the time that the second event was scheduled, causing a conflict.
There was an all day reservation in effect for the Roseville Ward for the whole location. The first baptism event existed at the time for three rooms: Cultural Hall, Kitchen and Baptismal Font.

You ask about the role(s) of the people involved. I am confused about roles and I do not want to make any assumptions. The website 'Administrators' tab shows the words "You are viewing Warren Ward". I am on the list so I must be an administrator. I created the Roseville Ward reservation for the whole day last year. I also created the first of the two events in the conflict. A Roseville Ward bishopric member created the second event causing the conflict, but I do not know his role since I can only see the administrators in my own ward. The sister who uses Spanish is not on the list of administrators, but somehow has an admin role because her name is listed in an appropriate calling on the MLS soltware used at the ward building.

By the way, the help screens mention roles like 'member', 'Editors', 'Building Schedulers', 'Ward Administrator' and 'Stake Administrator'. However, it is VERY confusing that none of these terms are mentioned on the website itself. Okay, having the words "You are viewing Warren Ward" under the word 'Administrators' is close to saying 'Ward Administrator', but does not say it. If someone with website power reads this, then please, 1) review the terms and make them consistent between the help screens and the website and 2) an indicator word or set of words that is visible when using the calendar that indicate what role or roles that you currently have 3) if someone has an admin role through MLS, that person should be listed in the list of Administrators when viewing the site 4) if an administrator tries to schedule an event on top of a reservation then they should be given a 'soft conflict' message, not just allow them to violate the reservation without knowing.

I had high hopes for the new calendar, since it has great potential as a multiple calendar system. However, I am close to suggesting to the stake president that we go back to using the lds.org\units calendar. The old system has the advantage of keeping control of double booking events in resources.

This is a bit of a rant. My frustration is showing through a bit. Sorry about that. I know people are doing their best.

scote wrote:You ask about the role(s) of the people involved. I am confused about roles and I do not want to make any assumptions.

If you can, can you go to Settings > Locations & Rooms. Select the location that you've had a problem with, and see who is listed as "Building Scheduler".

Anyone listed there could have saved a conflicting event over top of your Reservation without ever knowing it was there.

RussellHltn wrote:If you can, can you go to Settings > Locations & Rooms....

No can do. I do not have a 'Locations & Rooms' option under Settings.

RussellHltn wrote:Anyone listed there could have saved a conflicting event over top of your Reservation without ever knowing it was there.

Yes. Old news. No one should be surprised by a scheduler saving an event over a reservation.

I've done some testing and I now find that events that I create in the main calender are shown when I look at "Settings | Reservations". Also, when I try to edit these events that show in the wrong place, they show in the first edit screen as a reservation! When I click on 'edit reservation details' the thing shows up as an event again!

It has been asserted above that I created a reservation when I created the first of the two events that was to make up the conflict (3-6pm). This may be true, but I am confident that I not do it using the "Settings | Reservations" area! I created the thing, whatever it is, by doing the actions that should lead to an event. I suspect that reservations and events are being confused by the lds.org brain.

The Building Schedulers Quick Reference Guide says that "Settings | Reservations" option is only available to building schedulers and I have it so why is my name listed under administrators? Can I be both?

For almost a week, my events have been added with Spanish labels in the edit screens. Now that I mention it in a message above, my event labels are in English again. Is there a system developer reading here and if so, who are you?

scote wrote:No can do. I do not have a 'Locations & Rooms' option under Settings.

OK, that's probably only stake admins.

scote wrote:I've done some testing and I now find that events that I create in the main calender are shown when I look at "Settings | Reservations". Also, when I try to edit these events that show in the wrong place, they show in the first edit screen as a reservation! When I click on 'edit reservation details' the thing shows up as an event again!

Sounds like a new bug. That could be serious because if events are somehow really becoming reservations, that could easily allow a conflict.

scote wrote:The Building Schedulers Quick Reference Guide says that "Settings | Reservations" option is only available to building schedulers and I have it so why is my name listed under administrators? Can I be both?

Yes, you can be both.

RussellHltn wrote:

scote wrote:I've done some testing and I now find that events that I create in the main calender are shown when I look at "Settings | Reservations". Also, when I try to edit these events that show in the wrong place, they show in the first edit screen as a reservation! When I click on 'edit reservation details' the thing shows up as an event again!

Sounds like a new bug. That could be serious because if events are somehow really becoming reservations, that could easily allow a conflict.

That's not what is really happening here. Events are not turning into reservations, or vice versa.

Instead, the change that happened in v2 of the calendar is that building schedulers can now see both reservations and events on the Settings > Reservations screen. You can distinguish between them, because events appear in black text, and reservations in gray text.

The one point of confusion created by an unfortunate choice (I'm sure it's a minor bug) is that when you click on an event from the Reservations screen, you are initially prompted with a popup that includes a link to "Edit reservation details." That is misleading; it should say "Edit event details." If you follow that link, you will appropriately be on the Edit Event screen. If you click on an actual reservation from the Reservations screen, you are also prompted with a popup that includes a link to "Edit reservation details." But in this case, when you follow that link, you will appropriately be on the Edit Reservation screen.

The basic capability to be able to see and edit events or reservations from the Reservations screen is a very nice improvement, once you understand it. It lets a building scheduler see the whole picture of what is going on in his assigned location, and make changes as needed in one place, without having to bounce back and forth between the Reservations page and the main calendar view, as was required in the previous version.

aebrown wrote:... From what I can tell, everything is working perfectly ...

Everything is not perfect. In fact, things are very very bad. Based on tests today, I can create two events using the same room at the same time as long as the two events are on top of an existing reservation. I believe that is is only possible because I am a building scheduler. The worst part is that with three wards in the building, and the basic members not scheduling events, it is the nine bishopric members (schedulers all) who create events. Without extensive training they will now create multiple events using the same rooms and equipment at the same times. This weirdness is clearly not going to be in the online help screens. It is a disaster. The system should be automatic and stop the second event from using the same room at the same time. The system has to be fixed! Who do I call? What do we do?

the problem is building schedulers SHOULD NOT be scheduling events. Leaders should only be scheduling events. That is the way the system is designed and it works perfectly when used as designed. Building Schedulers ONLY make scheduling reservations they do NOT schedule events for Members, the local unit (ward leaders should do ALL event scheduling. When that is done there are no problems with the system.

It seems to me, scote, that if you had only one Building Scheduler, you, that would go a long ways to solve your problem. The nine bishopric members could still schedule events for their wards by virtue of their callings in the MLS system, but won't get confused with the dual reservation/event problems you are experiencing.

But I may not have a complete understanding of your difficulties. It just raised one eyebrow when you said all the bishopric members are "schedulers." For me the term "Building Scheduler" is confusing as far as the Church uses it. I think a more exact title, like "Building Schedule Coordinator" or something like that would be helpful. Something that indicates a single person for each building. There are now a lot of people in the ward who can schedule events in the building by virtue of their callings in the MLS system. But they are not all "Building Schedulers," they are "people who can schedule the building."

If all the bishopric members in the three wards are truly designated in the system as "Building Schedulers," I can see your frustration.

scote wrote:Everything is not perfect. In fact, things are very very bad. Based on tests today, I can create two events using the same room at the same time as long as the two events are on top of an existing reservation. I believe that is is only possible because I am a building scheduler. The worst part is that with three wards in the building, and the basic members not scheduling events, it is the nine bishopric members (schedulers all) who create events. Without extensive training they will now create multiple events using the same rooms and equipment at the same times. This weirdness is clearly not going to be in the online help screens. It is a disaster. The system should be automatic and stop the second event from using the same room at the same time. The system has to be fixed! Who do I call? What do we do?

I said "From what I can tell, everything is working perfectly." It's a little difficult to figure out what is going on when you give long posts that are short on details.

However, from what I can tell from your latest post, it does seem likely that you are being afflicted by the one bug in this area that I mentioned much earlier in this thread, and you acknowledged as a possibility:

scote wrote:The particular bug that did allow conflicting events for building schedulers who scheduled events on top of reservations is a possibility. There is an all day reservation for the day and both events were posted by schedulers.

If indeed that is the problem, then there are different solutions:

• Ask the developers to fix the bug. I did this way back when I first analyzed the problem. Apparently they fixed some aspect of it in 2.0.5, but much of the problem still remains. It will be a high priority to be fixed, either in the upcoming 2.0.6, or in 2.1. But since we don't know the date of a fix, this option doesn't address your problem right now.
• Stop using reservations -- just schedule events. Normally I wouldn't recommend this, but you seem to have lots of building schedulers doing your scheduling, and reservations don't do anything to affect their ability to schedule events, so you might not even notice if your reservations were removed.
• Stop having building schedulers schedule events. This can be accomplished by greatly reducing the number of schedulers -- generally it works best to have just one (perhaps 2) per building. Then have those building schedulers quit scheduling events. Leave the work of scheduling events to calendar editors. That's really the way the new system is designed. There are plenty of benefits for this kind of philosophy.

I agree that the bug should be fixed, and it is indeed unfortunate, but while we're waiting for it to be fixed, you might consider one of those last two options.

TinMan wrote:But I may not have a complete understanding of your difficulties. It just raised one eyebrow when you said all the bishopric members are "schedulers." For me the term "Building Scheduler" is confusing as far as the Church uses it. I think a more exact title, like "Building Schedule Coordinator" or something like that would be helpful. Something that indicates a single person for each building. There are now a lot of people in the ward who can schedule events in the building by virtue of their callings in the MLS system. But they are not all "Building Schedulers," they are "people who can schedule the building."

If all the bishopric members in the three wards are truly designated in the system as "Building Schedulers," I can see your frustration.

Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, only the stake default admins can designate Building Scheduler rights. Perhaps someone needs to discuss the situation with them.

RussellHltn wrote:If I'm not mistaken, only the stake default admins can designate Building Scheduler rights. Perhaps someone needs to discuss the situation with them.

Any stake administrator can designate people to be Building Schedulers (they don't have to be default admins). But that's still a small group.

In any case, the stake needs to take the lead in the approach used by the stake, wards, and building schedulers for assigning rights and doing scheduling. Wards will always have some flexibility, but where buildings are shared among wards, there does need to be some consistency in the approach used.

scote wrote:The particular bug that did allow conflicting events for building schedulers who scheduled events on top of reservations is a possibility.

This has now been fixed: see Calendar version 2.0.6 released!